Can Shirley Jackson's Writing Advice Improve Your Writing?

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

PROJECT VENTUS a.co/d/2aV4pOB

[@smallgreenwitch]

For a really, *really* strong example of the 'duller' moments shining, I'd actually say the parts 4 and 5 of chapter 1 of Haunting of Hill House, when Eleanor is driving, is a really good example. The act of having her driving while there's a great deal of introspection both keeps it from just being 'Eleanor sitting in a room musing', but also gives her something to react to, even when it's the changing scenery, or the little girl she overhears in the restaurant. Her wild flights of fantasy and the contrast between the places she stops also make it worth including the journey of her driving to Hill House and build the overall tension, even though the *action* is 'get in car, drive for a while.' Those moments all *mean* something, otherwise, the chapter could simply be 'Eleanor arrived at Hill House. And, of course, for an example of when to exclude those details because they don't add anything, the Princess Bride, Chapter Four, the Preparations: 'What with one thing and another, three years passed.'

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

This is fantastic info, thank you for that! I have Hill House sitting on my bookshelf, so I'll go back over that section. Appreciate it :)

[@mroctober3657]

Motion creates emotion.

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

That’s a great snappy way to remember that!

[@alexiacerwinskipierce8114]

Would love to see a writing advice video on Donna Tart

[@austinauthor846]

What I have found personally to make the duller parts shine is including within the overarching plot and narrative, an internal plot and narrative taking place both within and between characters simultaneously. This manifests in conflict between the way characters think, differences in how they interact, secrets withheld within backstory, mistrust/distrust, love or falling out of love, etc. It's even better when this internal dynamic has a climax and resolution right before the actual climax (even better if during said climax). These are things that not only showcase motion but ensure that your characters are always changing and growing throughout while your main plot plays out at the forefront. It makes for a read that is never boring. Great video!

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Absolutely! Great point to add, thank you. Seems like that tip in particular has sparked the most discussion on this one. It takes a lot of work to achieve that, and your advice here is really valuable I think.

[@Exayevie]

Read Robin Hobb's Assassin's Quest trilogy - I was about 300,000 words in when I realized the word said appears virtually nowhere in the book. it either had an inventive tag or no tag at all. But I didn't even notice because all her words were well chosen, appropriate, and lacked melodrama (which is usually what people are trying to avoid when they advise you to stick to said). At the same time I've already read books that never see a need to veer from "said" and they usually don't stand out either. In fact, I'm reading one such book right now, but I literally had to check because I haven't noticed the tags at all. These authors are masterful at choosing dialogue so that it couldn't have much more than one inflection. Both of these approaches are valid. The debate is a non-issue; good or bad dialogue writing can happen no matter which you choose.

[@Kendojin]

First off, thanks for keeping the tips throughout the video. It's super helpful, cause some of their advice is long and it's good to re-read while you talk about it Second, what you said makes so much sense about mystery... If the reader doesn't know something, make it clear that the character ALSO doesn't know. It makes it feel like my confusion is on purpose, and reminds me that I'm in good hands. If I feel confused as a reader, and maybe like I SHOULD know something, I wonder if the problem is me... or if this author isn't a good writer (They're both a bad feeling)

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Absolutely, it’s annoying that I took so long to realise that would be a good idea 😂 but will keep it there every time from now on. Definitely agree on the mystery bit, I feel like that when I think I’ve missed something. Flicking back over a chapter like huh?! 🤔

[@Kendojin]

@@KierenWestwoodWriting I didn't even realize it was bothering me until AFTER you made the change. I just gladly went back to reread, because the information is still excellent 😁

[@mikem8634]

An insight into David Peace, particularly the Red Riding works, would be exceptionally cool

[@krinkle280]

Congratulations and good luck with your book. Just ordered it on Amazon.

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Thank you so much ☺️ Really appreciate the support and I hope you enjoy it!

[@JasonFuhrman]

Good advice and interpretation as always!

[@scottmaurer5636]

OMG! The way he says "Garage"...

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

😂

[@kazumasatou6256]

On the topic of secrets, what I do is alternate between letting the reader know but not the character, then vice versa or I let them both in the dark. I havent published shit so dont take my advice, Im still writing my first draft 😅

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

That's a fun approach I think! Don't be reluctant to share your thoughts, I love hearing from other writers. Whether you've published or not doesn't make what you say any less valid! We're all writers, trying to make stories work ☺️ (somehow)

[@morganbroadhead6943]

The only reason characters say things in certain ways (shouted, whispered, screamed, etc) is because they are experiencing some kind of underlying emotion. As a reader (and writer) I'm much more interested in showing and exploring and feeling that underlying emotion than simply using a dialogue tag as a crutch to avoid doing so. Why did they shout or scream or feel the need to whisper? Let me see that instead.

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Absolutely! That's the approach I prefer too.

[@mmitchell4331]

Thank you for this video. The topic was something I always think about, as in am I doing enough to keep momentum with each scene and characters.

[@Eldalynn]

I never thought about movement when it comes to description. Huh. Makes sense to me. As always I enjoy the videos you put out. 😊

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Thank you! I just find it adds a little bit of life to it.

[@pauligrossinoz]

For me, it's so important that when the reader feels some surprise, that this feeling is mirrored in one of the characters. _... she wondered why a policeman would do such on odd thing ...._ That way the reader knows that the author is being intentional in that moment. It's not a dreaded plot hole, or a loose end, or _Deus ex Machina,_ or some other thing that can really annoy readers.

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Absolutely! Intention is the key, you're right, and it has to be clear. There's nothing more annoying that tracking back through a story, thinking you've missed something when you're not supposed to know about it yet.

[@pauligrossinoz]

@@KierenWestwoodWriting - yep, that's also my list of reading annoyances. High on my list is when a specific character has an established behavior, say "doesn't like coffee", later on they order a coffee. If by the end of the book it's never explained, it's so annoying!!! _Especially_ when the plot hinges on that change in behavior.

[@JoeyPaulOnline]

Love this, especially the bit about not stopping the story for description getting better at doing that myself!

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Thank you ☺️ For sure, it’s always a work in progress. Description doesn’t come naturally to me, I’m usually a ‘white room’ type writer to mmm so the motion helps me in that way too.

[@reirei7086]

Been binging your stuff, it’s really helpful for the story I’m writing ❤

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate you being here ☺️

[@reirei7086]

@@KierenWestwoodWriting I found your channel a while back and I’ve come back to it for advice for a new project. I was scared you’d stopped uploading because your videos helped me a ton in previous projects. I’m glad to see your still making such helpful content :)

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Still here and going strong!

[@JustPerusing]

Congrats on the book release.

[@france1464]

Congratulations on Project Ventus! Just curious, how long did you write this one? I’m amazed with how well you’re able to juggle your novel writing with the YT channel and freelance editing. Kudos!

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Thanks! It's hard to say exactly, because I wrote a version of an early chapter in 2020, then left it for a couple of years. Picked it up again somewhere in late 2022 and then wrote the rest in about 4-5 months. It's been done for a while now! I get up super early in the morning and get the writing done then, so whatever else happens that day, the writing is done.

[@MarianneOz]

New sub - great advice and just wanted to say Jude Law is your doppelgänger. Or he yours. Love the short videos.

[@mvo9856]

An idea for how to make the duller parts of a story more interesting is to include subtle foreshadowing in those parts. The reader may not notice the first time through but it will make the scene exciting on the second read. And because it's a fairly dull part of the story the foreshadowing will stand out in a way it wouldn't in a more dynamic part of the story where it might get lost in the action.

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

That's a great suggestion, yes. That way you're still adding that little something extra even to the duller parts. I like adding things in that will only be noticed in a second read through too, it's like a secret for the people who like the book enough to re-read it!

[@user-vh6bk3in2f]

i think the reader should know either just as writer has led them to know, or just out of their imagination they should know when Sara shouts, when she whispers, when she hums to herself....write it like you want to read it....not like you want it to be read....

[@TheMrBeaucephus]

The duller parts, yes... I think that the word "dull" carries a negative connotation for you. It's not a criticism, just an observation that as all of us learn writing and accept feedback we often encounter critiques admonishing us for parts of our stories that drag or threaten to bore the reader. I like to think of what she describes as not referring to "dull" but perhaps more like the doldrums. Stories can meander and slow down. Those places where it slows and are calmer are opportunities to build tension and shift perspective. Make a conscious effort to incorporate these "dull" moments to offer a means to see beneath the narrative, around the corners as it were.

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

That’s a really good point! I think you’re absolutely right there.

[@judymiles7186]

Congratulations on your novel. Plus, I love your British accent!

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

Thank you! 😁

[@Keepitkind7]

Any chance you could explore the UPMARKET FICTION category and what that entails? That mix between literary and commercial fiction? I'm hearing it may stand on its own as a sole and separate category, rather than choosing thriller or mystery, sci-fi, etc. Your take on it might clarify my understanding...or misunderstanding. I get so much out of your videos. Thanks for that.

[@KierenWestwoodWriting]

That's the label I'd put on my own work I think. It sounds like exactly how you defined it, a mix of both. Everything I've written has been a bit of genre, but literary(ish). Or at least I consider it to be. I've struggled to make traction with my own writing over the years (a few literary agents have told me directly that they wouldn't know how to market my work or where to send it because of it's mixed-genres). I don't worry too much about that though because these days I think traditional publishing is on the way out anyway. That sounds very negative I know, but I just think the system as it stands doesn't favour authors anymore, especially debut authors or those trying to innovate. I've typically struggled to find agents that are looking for upmarket fiction (however, my search has been confined to the UK, obviously) so in the US or other territories it might be different. I don't mean to discourage you at all with this though. I personally love upmarket fiction, I would read more of it if I could find it! Writing is a lot of fun and really satisfying and to me it's absolutely the root to finding happiness with a story. It just makes sense to me to have the exciting parts of a sci-fi story for example, but overlaid with reflections on meaning and human experience. I think it makes for a 'complete' feeling story. Not to suggest that genre books aren't complete, but hopefully you know what I mean. I'm not sure I really answered your question at all here...

[@Keepitkind7]

@@KierenWestwoodWriting Yes, thanks. And perhaps literary + sci-fi are a rarer form of genre than literary +mystery or romance, etc. Thanks for your comments. I quite agree.

[@jonlittle5032]

Number four - do not antagonize your reader. Juan Rulfo ("Pedro Paramo") is a fantastic writer with a gift for subverting structure and POV. But he pushes this lesson, and I have never finished his book, even though it is only 123 pages. I think I forced myself to get through page 24, after putting it down several times, over the course of several days. I never threw it out the window, breaking the glass - it (the book) isn't mine. I will pay for a broken window before I pay for this book.

[@jonlittle5032]

Of course, I could never finish Joyce's *Ulysses* ... so there is that.

[@futurestoryteller]

Just use "said"? In that case, someone should explain to me why I shouldn't just put the name of the speaking character, followed by a colon.

[@conordaedalus]

Some people do that; some don't even attribute it when it's obvious who is speaking