CAN THE TR-09 COMPETE WITH THE TR909 (In The Mix)

[@MOOTANT1]

NOTE: I didn't use the Toms in this loop because they didn't really fit over the musical content. I did create a second loop which used the Toms, snare, and rimshot. However, that second recording was unusable on account of constant audio dropouts. After multiple attempts, I had to give up. Essentially though the Toms on both machines sounded fine but the difference, particularly the groove was noticeable. I have since found out the culprit for my interface issues was because I installed Elektrons Overbridge in between recording the first loop and the second one. Don't know why, but after uninstalling all is well again. All said and done the TR-09 can compete with the TR909 with a mono out. But if I used TR909's separate outs I would be able to do a much better job. The TR-09 doesn't have individual outputs for drums which in my opinion is its major flaw. Its USB outs solution is unusable in the real world.

[@dxtrs_mnpltr]

It sounds like the 09 is lacking the 909's depth of the kick and ring of the ride. All in all it still sounds really good tho! Mate the stab sounds were really great too! Where are they coming from???

[@medwaystudios]

The 09 was crisper but the 909 seemed to fit in the groove better.

[@Tsaddeous]

The TR-09 is a bit brither, due to his numeric process. To me it could be easily corrected with a little bit of EQ. For a poor TR-909 lover, the TR-09 a gift from Roland.

[@vforvillain77]

The 09 kick hit harder. Nice! I'm more impressed with it now than I already was

[@geevee7823]

Interesting how things have developed over the passed 3+ years. A real 909 has increased almost double in price. The TR09 is also increasing in price, but still affordable. The RD has only just arrived a month ago and can already be spotted 2nd hand.

[@0713dm]

I am extremely interested in using my TR-09 to create loops/ tracks in a DAW such as this. I have the TR-09 and multiple synths, a small mixer (may get a Roland MX-1, I hear there is some benefit to this w/ the Boutiques) , and a Focusrite Scarlett interface. I do hope there is potential here because I definitely want to record my own techno , EBM, etc. From what I see here, there is a lot of potential for the TR-09. (No, I was not willing to wait for Behringer! Lol)

[@benmast7089]

The TR-09 cuts beter in the mix than the TR-8 same goes for the TR-08 it just sounds beter in the mix. I had a TR-909 in the past i mis him but i am very happy with my TR-09 now. Thanks for the video.

[@MOOTANT1]

In a decent song, well mixed it wouldn't matter if the TR-09 or the original TR909 was used imho.

[@itrema]

@@MOOTANT1 the handclap is far away from the real909

[@JurassicTrance]

Excellent comparison - enjoyed the example track for musical context.

[@shaman3038]

same, 09 is not bad !

[@alobosk]

To me it's not at all about the sound. You pay Roland Cloud and you've got everything, including the 909 as it is. I got the TR09 because I DON'T LIKE FREAKIN' PLUGINS ANYMORE. I want to tinker with real knobs as I did in the 90s. To have several real outputs going to a real analog mixer with cute VU meters. I'm going back to the M1, the D50 (D05 in this case), I want a Rhodes. I want an S550 or S750 sampler, all the ROMplers from E-MU that I loved, and the JV2080 to fill up the ROMpler side of things. Add to that a MOTU MIDI Time Piece, a very old Macintosh II, and MOTU (Not Digital) Performer 5. That's my dream. And then maybe, because I can't afford it, to keep Logic to record the results with SMPTE sync. Otherwise I'd be using just plain-old 1'' or 2'' tape (1'' TASCAM MSR 24-track is my dream).

[@simontunnicliffe2107]

Know exactly what you mean. Analogue just sounds better. All that lot will cost you a pretty penny though. I'm with you though, I'd do that if I had a spare £5k.

[@alobosk]

@@simontunnicliffe2107 Oh yeah of course, plus a nice 16 or 24-track open reel tape recorder, a good analog mixer... The next best thing is at least have a real human interface to the sounds instead of a mouse. The real thing, one day...maybe.

[@TheJohnsofDoes]

The difference is in the VCA's.you just can't beat sounds being triggered by analog VCA's.same reason triggering from a sampler (especially breaks and drum loops)never sounds the same as doing the same ITB via MIDI,audio,Kontakt,whatever else.i have no idea why they are mostly ignored in modelling stuff and VST's,but it plays a huge part in what makes those devices articulate the way they do e.g like the TR-909 vs TR-09

[@seanino9094]

That makes absolutely no sense. what's VCA got to do with a sampler? Are you conflating 2 different things here?

[@savanaviolenta]

Love my tr09

[@0713dm]

p.s. on first listen, I skipped to the music and did not realize that the music contained both 09 and 909. I was waiting for a change and did not spot anything until I realized they were playing in succession.

[@musicxtn]

909 grooves with the stomach and bounces. 09 grooves up and down with the OHH.

[@TR-909]

There’s something inside the TR-909 that can’t be copied. Groove!

[@lownrgy]

and this demonstration isn't even using the sequencer of 909

[@chrischrissn5606]

The 09 kick has not that impact in the lower bass, and is higher pitched. Dont know if you did try to match both kick to the same pitch?

[@MOOTANT1]

I didn't attempt to match the sounds. There are a number of videos that do that. This was about how they both compare in the mix. A sort of real-world type of situation.:)

[@simontunnicliffe2107]

I was gonna ask the same question, if the pitches had been matched because if they aren't you're not comparing the same sounds.

[@drKrollspell]

- Great track (loop) !! And test. Thanks 😀 !!

[@simontunnicliffe2107]

After several listens to just the drums, the 909 sounds better to my ears. The TR-09 immediately sounds brighter and the hats sound slightly higher pitched. Seems as though there's more low end in the real 909.

[@MOOTANT1]

But does the TR09 compete with the real deal in the context of a 'pseudo mix' ;)

[@itrema]

thanks for the video ! i tested by myself the tr-09 Vs the real909, and honestly, i can say that tr-09 is crap ( sorry ! )...i don't know what they smoke at roland ? ..but it seems strong...lol... I prefer the work of small companies which have better sonic results like products re909 or steda which seem to be 100% faithfull to the original to my ears even if it costs twice to 3 times more as the tr-09...if you calculate it is a better deal to order a faithfull product than a crap copy imo...

[@MOOTANT1]

But the premise is can the TR-09 compete 'in the mix' with a real 909. I say it can up to a point. I agree the Nava/Steda clones are excellent and literally no different from an original The TR-09 has differences for sure. I just got my self an RD9 and Ill have a video about this week. Its not a review, more like a does it fit in the mix, how does it sound processed etc. :)

[@charliewisp]

Can you show your gain staging? Ive tried running through a tr09 and behringer rd 9 through a chandler tm2 preamp (real one) or the dlx premier clone and into a 1076ln. Seems any synth i put in the 1076 gets a bit of noise. And depending on the level and gain i use on the preamps (either one), it can either make the drums really fat with a little bit of analog noise and distortion or if i use modest setting on the preamp it sounds completely boring and flat and not thick or heavy. I also notice if i also have to take into account the level on the output of both the tr09 and rd9 and the i individual volume of the bassdrum because that can cause distortion as it enters the preamp. My question is what and how did they record the tr 909 back in the 90s for that classic sound. I dont have a 909 to compare but the sample packs of dr mix are completely quiet and dull and have high gain. So not sure if he didnt put the time in to sample a cleaner signal or if that was standard. And when i try to match my preamp and compressor settings and play A/B with Technotronic or Aqua, my 09 and rd 9 sound nothing similar. Im just trying to achieve a like for like sound in comparison with my favorite 90s records and even with great clones and expensive preamps and compressors i realize i just dont have the ear for reference of what and how a proper recording of this 909 should and would have sounded like. Any insight or tips?

[@MOOTANT1]

Quote My question is what and how did they record the Tr 909 back in the 90s for that classic sound. I can't show the gain staging. Not doing videos for now and have a different setup. Dont have the TR09. There was no right way, but often the 909 would be clipped/saturated via the mixing desks gain knobs pushing it into distortion. In my case, it was a Mackie SR range mixing desk, Don't overanalyse it. Back in the day, no one was thinking seriously about how to achieve a particular sound. A lot of it was an accident and the simple fact the Mackies headroom wasn't exactly Neve headroom. On most of my mixes, the red gain overload LED was popping off and on all the time on many of the channels and the master would be in the red often - I didn't care, it sounded fine. On the 909 kick, I would estimate 95% of the time I needed to push the gain in to the red or it sounded weak. The 909 isn't a drum machine that's easy to change its character sound. About the only thing you can do is saturate/distort it. Send all the 909 drums to a sub , and slap a distortion plug, compression, eq and whatever else you want and mess about. The only thing I will say is that I have never been able to replicate the exact sound of the Mackie mixers being pushed into the red with plugins. Expect a different flavour with plugins and honestly you can get a better sound with plugins today. The Mackie isn't a holy grail mixer - far from it. I was often frustrated by its limited sound. But, it did the job for sure. This track I did kzbin.info/www/bejne/eJPWY2iFfs6pp7s Its all Mackie going into the red. It's not really distortion, but it is heavily saturated. If the 909 wasn't in the red no way would the drums have been able to compete with the bassline. But one thing that's also important about my stuff from back then was the lack of low subby end. I basically had a 75hz low cut across everything. Pure accident because if I didn't my speakers would rattle. But in the clubs that low cut made my tracks sound really loud and very detailed/clear. Could actually hear definition in the bass notes, kick etc. Ok, cant answer any more Q's mate. good luck 😎

[@charliewisp]

@@MOOTANT1 i appreciate the detailed response and tips. And inspiring track. Love the sound of it

[@r0tekz]

@@MOOTANT1 What an awesome answer! I was hoping you would cover these aspects of drum production. Do you think there is any advantage to using a 909 clone over 909 samples? I don't have one, but do have hardware samplers, including a S-760 thanks to your recommendation. Instead of a desk, they are running into RME interfaces, partially for space reasons. As you no doubt know, the inputs are not meant to be overdriven, and clip, so for drum saturation I have plugins in Bitwig, or hardware, an Analog Heat II and OTO Boum. In the 90's, I was a club DJ in London and absolutely caned your records. The original Bellboy pressing of Neuro is one of the most slamming tunes of all time. The 909 drums and production are golden, and a total inspiration. Was the DP/4 used on that? And is the main riff samples running though Roland filter? *Incredible* sound, however it was done. It is good to see you posting still, and I do hope you will be able to make videos again some time. They are the best! 😁

[@ChrisCowie01]

@@r0tekz 'Do you think there is any advantage to using a 909 clone over 909 samples'? No, unless you are trying to do a Mills type 909 performance. Samples work great. for drum saturation I have plugins in Bitwig, or hardware, an Analog Heat II and OTO Boum. Oh yeah, you would have no problem adding some great saturation with that lot. 'Neuro is one of the most slamming tunes of all time.' The 909 drums and production are golden, and a total inspiration. Was the DP/4 used on that? And is the main riff samples running though Roland filter? Incredible sound, however it was done.' Cheers mate. DP4/S750/909/DeepBass9/SouncraftSpirit desk: is the gear used in Neuro. The filtering on the main riff is the S750 (you have the same filters) There's an acidy riff. That's the S750 playing a sound I filtered and distorted. Over the riff and with the speakers muted, I randomly recorded pitch bend data which I always assigned to the filter and thats how the acidy vibe on that sound came about. The muted speaker, randomly record pitch bend assigned filter data was a technique I used a lot. The Roland s range filters are the best sounding of all the 90's sample filters imo. They're musical is the best way I can describe them. I keep thinking about resuming videos. Just havent had the time.

[@r0tekz]

@@ChrisCowie01 Thanks for all that info, Chris. Hopefully I'll find a DP/4 to use with the 760. The muted pitch bend>filter trick is intriguing. I'll give it a go and see how it comes out. Cheers!

[@woopeedyscoop1858]

nice comparsion, thanks!

[@VikerTurrit]

Good comparison with context! Behringer RD-9 incoming January 2020 :-)

[@juicythedj750]

Oh rly? :(

[@VikerTurrit]

@@juicythedj750 whoops^^ kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5rVc2RspLamrK8

[@juicythedj750]

@@VikerTurrit haha yesss, but not convinced really

[@VikerTurrit]

@@juicythedj750 i like the untreated RD9 sound so far, dont forget, the sound of the 909 or 808 we all have in our cognitive head was also formed by old mixing desks, cables, tape or dat machines.... so a pure sound demo of every gear doesnt represent it at all.... the hole signal chain must be recreated.... Perhapes something ill do on my channel this year.

[@juicythedj750]

@@VikerTurrit that's not it really - owning a TR-8S and having done repairs on a few original 909's, i must say it sounds different. And it'll probably miss a lot of the charm of the original too. I'm ordering the Steda SR-909 soon which is an exact replica, even down to the firmware & original cpu.

[@smuram]

Good comparison. Thanks.

[@volta5550]

Honestly, I'm not trying to sound like a purist, but I do think the 909 sounds warmer, fuller, and more alive than the 09

[@itrema]

i'm lucky enough to have a 909. I did the comparison with tr-09 and the tr-09 sounds plastic, for example the handclap is horrible compared to the real one, i don't know what the engineers @ roland had in their mind, but i guess the can change their job..

[@Bendy2K]

Great video! On a related note, I just wondering if you've ever had the chance to use a TR-8. If so, what did you make of it? Keep hearing conflicting things.

[@MOOTANT1]

Haven't used the TR8 but have used the TR808. Im sure in the mix I could get the TR8 to sound pretty good and to most ppl they likely wouldnt know it's the emulation. However, I can tell from demos of the TR8 the emulation isn't as close as the TR-09 TR909 combo. One other thing: I'm not a purist. I gauge gear by how it works for me and specifically in the context of the mix. If something works & sounds good I'll use it regardless of what it is

[@Bendy2K]

@@MOOTANT1 Thanks dude. Might have a look at the TR09, but you're right - i still like the jams I get out of the TR8

[@thecurrylover1]

Have you got a Facebook page?

[@MOOTANT1]

Yes, but rarely use it and don't use it for music stuff (yet).

[@Niele160]

Did you remove the low end from the TR-09 or does it really don't have any? Thats WEAK. There's literally almost no low end, weird.

[@Its303AcidBass]

I closed my eyes and could not tell the difference in my classic Technics RP-DJ1200 headphones.

[@saibot20194]

TR 909 wins.

[@Dougie-]

Not a single soul, us included would know if it's the 909 or 09 we're listening to on a track.

[@KarlHamilton]

@@Dougie- correct. It's not 1999 amy more.

[@itrema]

@@Dougie- me i can listen to the difference, especially the handclap

[@danalexpiano]

What is the reason to take sounds for mix and not take sequencer groove? Useless test.

[@MOOTANT1]

The test was a real-world situation to see if the TR-09 can compete with the TR909 in the mix - as if you were making a record. I wasn't testing the swing of the 909 VS the swing of the TR-09 and the loop I had going wouldn't have suited swing either. That would be a different test.

[@bobbyb6412]

909 grooves way better!

[@UncleGordon1978]

are you from Poland or Sweden? :D

[@MOOTANT1]

Neither. I'm from Scotland :)

[@UncleGordon1978]

@@MOOTANT1 ha ha this is cool! I found your thoughts about 9o9 very useful :)