Can This Character Instantly Make You A Pro?

I know everything about Super Smash Bros. And to prove it, I answered EVERY QUESTION that the internet (specifically Twitter) asked me about the game. Today, BenSW's brother asks a question about Marth.
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edited by ‪@seanathan1‬ ► / seanathan__1
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0:00 Does Marth benefit from having easier punishes and execution tests?
5:57 So an all-knowing being asks you a question...
9:21 Spacies are the best because...
#QnA #SmashBros #tophbbq

[@Tophbbq]

If you enjoyed this Q&A video and want to be in the next one on stream, follow me on Twitter and Twitch to get updated ASAP! twitter.com/toph_bbq www.twitch.tv/tophbbq If you want to hear me answer questions that you probably want answered, watch this playlist as I've done this before! kzbin.info/aero/PLfWxZcFpK5vwtGXTeApbAl9Tky1vWa-ZZ

[@melee9183]

While I don't think anyone in melee is easy, I think some characters are just easier at certain skill levels.

[@kickitsmooth]

Exactly. The tier list changes depending on skill level and tourney vs friendlies.

[@Buzzerman2120]

When you start playing you think Falco is OP, Sheik is ez to play, and Captain Falcon sucks. When you've played for a couple years Falco is whatever, Sheik is actually stupid hard to play, and Captain Falcon is absolutely broken. (Falcon main btw)

[@changyanwang1625]

Good username

[@animaIpath]

@@Buzzerman2120 imagine thinking falcon is broken in melee LUL

[@icegod4849]

@@Buzzerman2120 Minus the Falcon takes I agree

[@Uberjunge]

I wish we had a big fat space animal, like space bowser with shine and fire koopa

[@SirNastintatious]

Shout out to the editor throwing in a very polite and hardly visible "excuse you" when Toph burps. I highly enjoyed that.

[@seanathan1]

you are welcome

[@taylorbee4010]

Marthin' ain't easy

[@user-kp3hd9wr4w]

Marth's player is benefited if they are newcomer. but at high level play, it is becoming wit battle, so the easy control isnt much of benefit anymore

[@AdThe1st]

very well put Toph, great video as always

[@bolshevikY2K]

"Marth is easy" = "I don't want people with bad hands and good rhythm to play my smash bros game" It's really like PPMD says, Melee is like a dance. Spacies that complain about Marth are just worse at dancing in neutral and focus too much on ledgedashing and punish game.

[@maiguelguti6818]

16:23 "bro's spitting fr fr" XD

[@josephinefox9347]

Used to think marth was wasy to play until i got good enough to realize that the story is different across different skill levels and this can be attributed to characters being "easier"to get into vs others. I main fox (obv by my dummy opinions) and when i started i swore by marth being an easier character to start with. I honestly still stand by that, if you wanna have fun learning the game and you wanna work for it but you dont wanna learn every intricqte way you can mash your face on the controller marths ur guy. Rhe better you get tho the harder he is to get returns on and in this level fox becomes the truly easy one

[@josephinefox9347]

This is all concerning marth fox, not marths other matches

[@josephinefox9347]

When you and your homie startin out as fox and marth the fox is just going to do worse. Like how toph said about marth needing to drop his combo twice, but for fox, every minute positioning is a different, qlmost mutually exclusive route so its hard to do well since youre jut not able to actually control fox to the level he needs to be

[@sheikneedles9250]

On the last subject it feels weird to divide it between floaties and spacies. What about falcon Sheik Marth yoshi etc?

[@kickitsmooth]

Marth isn’t easy, but has the benefit of having the best matchups against the most played characters in the game. He thrives in mid level because of this.

[@RayQuazawski]

Idk man, my fox beats lots of lower mid level Marth players, i do get beat by higher mid level marths tho, but my point is there's still a climb to get there.

[@animaIpath]

now this i agree with

[@Yvs8962]

I actually like Marth, I just think hes specifically wack against spacies. I respect the hell out of Zain for innovating and changing minds about all of Marths non-spacie MUs like Puff, Falcon, Sheik, and putting in so much work in MUs like Pikachu, but Marths who are only good for cheesing spacies are just kinda cringe imo

[@sterlifyy]

Marths are just cringe

[@archivelibrarian6818]

he barely has a winning matchup against spacies though. unless youre on FD theres not really an advantage at all. you kind of just sound like a fox complainer lmao

[@Yvs8962]

@@archivelibrarian6818 How am I willing to say "I like Marth" and think hes cool in general vs the wider cast, and that "I respect the best Marth for innovating and changing minds" in MUs he wasnt known to be great in, but to you I sound like a Fox complainer? That is a lot more respect to the character than a "Fox complainer" would give, and I even play him a bit sooo... He has a slight winning MU vs spacies, sure. I never claimed he beats them badly, or that he even beats them to begin with (I do think he does, but I never said it). I just dont think the WAY he beats them is very cool, interesting, or demanding, when the strongest phases of his game in the MU have largely been formulaic, low-risk high-reward shit, and its basically always been that way. Marth has been death comboing, and cheesing spacies off stage for decades, am I supposed to find that cool? I don't and Im not obligated to. I think the MU is fine, just rather uninteresting and unimpressive from Marth's end, and the fact is many Marth players are just spacie cheesers, and cant do shit when you give them a character that isnt Fox or Falco. If a Marth can beat other characters they have all of my respect, which is why Zain is one of my favorite players.

[@archivelibrarian6818]

@@Yvs8962 im gonna be honest with you bro im not reading all that

[@Yvs8962]

@@archivelibrarian6818 Then you shouldnt have bothered commenting some dumb shit

[@SnyderChips07]

toph has such a big brain

[@willscharnagl6909]

i think people think marth/sheik are easy in the sense that more than any other character you can really abuse doing nothing but watching your opponent and waiting for them to do something.

[@jonasharrison6355]

Bro Toph really out here playing the youtube game 💀 mans def changed the title of the video and the thumbnail like 3 times already lmaoooo

[@jbb4105]

The evolution of the name of this video is interesting lol

[@jolteonthunderstone4211]

bro's spitting fr fr

[@CoyoteCocktail]

as a marth player, there is a lot of discourse surrounding the character that is super frustrating to read and often outright inaccurate, especially when considering what kinds of havoc all the Top 8 characters are capable of enacting on each other. That said, I also still believe that marth has certain inherent advantages in his huge grab range, disjointed hitboxes, and dash/wavedash length that benefit him disproportionately to the rest of the cast. I don't think this makes him the best in the game, but I do think there are some aspects of Melee's neutral and punish game that Marth doesn't have to worry about as much. however, just like when Hbox was #1 and so many people were saying that Puff was unbeatable/the best character in the game, I do think Zain's performance over the last few years has made people have an overblown perception of Marth as a character. Zain is so good at avoiding reversal situations, specifically against Fox, and instead of resting on the laurels of Marth's inherent strengths, I think Zain has striven to be so precise in his spacing and movement that he takes more advantage of these strengths than all the Marths below him. Sometimes I watch Kodorin play, and it's like he's doing 97% of what Zain would be doing... but there's this small difference in spacing, and the combo that would lead to an edge guard, or the edge guard that would lead to a kill, just doesn't quite happen in the way it would for Zain. anyway i love marth and he's super wack but kinda cool but kinda lame but there is a method to the madness and all of melee's best characters are fucking crazy and also sheik is broken dont @ me

[@Gabriel-sd1oh]

complaining about characters is a way of saying "i'm not as good as this guy but my pride doesn't allow me to admit it"

[@trollof229antthevariable9]

It definitely can be. Shine, Marth's throw, and a couple other moves are really broken tho.

[@ladian5475]

What do you think about the controller ect. changes being proposed/introduced wrt the execution point? I am for creating consistency of inputs but it feels like some changes are just making the game easier- following your train of thought, making fox better.

[@KuhEssen]

If there were all floaties we would have a different rule set IMO.

[@joshdamighty]

Yes. Next question.

[@mbabaneamputee7725]

the editing in this video is fkn wild

[@seanathan1]

is that a good thing cuz i edited this video was experimenting with some stuff

[@mbabaneamputee7725]

@@seanathan1 I was having a hard time watching it, kinda getting motion sick. Also I'm super baked so... could be that. I like watching toph's ticks and was kinda laughing at the ticks in the video compared to toph's. It was pretty funny tbh maybe tone it down just a touch. thanks for the content hehe

[@mbabaneamputee7725]

@@seanathan1 I'll rewatch the video in the morning and report back if it's still making me woozy

[@seanathan1]

@@mbabaneamputee7725 no yeah for sure :)

[@Frank7489]

Marth is good cuz of his favorable MU vs spacies. But a lot of other characters give him trouble. And we’re seeing it now where ICs Sheiks and Yoshi are giving Zain a hard time. Same is true for pika and really a lot of other mid/low tiers vs Marth

[@acidrazor66]

saying “marth is free, so easy to play” is just another way to say “I SUCK HARD AT THIS GAME”

[@Kitth3n]

If he was easy you’d probably see a lot more top level marths and marth secondaries

[@acidrazor66]

@@Kitth3n that’s one of the main reasons, imo… I mean, marth’s offense is OP af but his defenses are easily exploitable

[@pauldaulby260]

how would you feel about character specific tournament rules for stock count? e.g. if both players are playing, puff or peach, its a 3 stock tournament match.

[@pauldaulby260]

more controversial follow up is, should a similar rule be made for auto losing timeouts, i.e. if fox, puff or falcon times out vs any other character, they auto lose

[@Buttsubushi_OCE]

I believe Puff-Peach players should have a gentleman's agreement to not pick the larger stages Dreamland(usually Puff's best stage) and FD(usually Peach's best stage) in an effort to improve the viewing experience by having shorter sets with less games ending in timeouts. It will be much harder to set this trend as other gentleman's agreements are all in ditto matchups (shiek no chaingrabs, falcon no uptilt edgeguards, ganon no tipmans), and the majority agree Puff favors the mu against Peach.

[@duelme1234]

I know that the guilty gear part isn't the main focus but I feel like we should also acknowledge the differences between the purpose/structure of strive compared to melee if we really want to compare the 2 for this topic. Melee is a very technical fighting game by nature and was purposefully made to be faster than 64, while Strive is an attempt to appeal to more players and simplified many legacy systems. Making the best chars in melee the most technical makes perfect sense as that's what the game is technical by nature. However, forcing newer players to learn technical chars (if they seriously want to improve) or at least making them switch mains once they reach a certain level feels really unfair when the point of the game is wider appeal. The "traditional" fgc scene is also far more connected than smash is with other games, so it might be beneficial to have relatively simple yet decently strong characters to allow people from other series to jump between games and play a more fundamental approach than forcing them to engage in the very technical aspect of the game. It's nice to see specialist to do well (and there should definitely be rewards for people to go down this path), but forcing everyone to "become a specialist" might cause problems depending on the game. Lastly, I feel like the existence of patches changes these dynamics a lot more as a technical char that might be bad now could be great down the road. And even if a char is hard to play, if they sit at the top for too long people will start to hate on them regardless of technicality.

[@jae_peas]

At a tas level how do you feel Yoshi is? (Mainly on account of parry)

[@pelo177]

2:05 Rick moment

[@Skapes11238]

I've had this experience with tekken. I'm at the point where I know what I can improve on but am still dropping basic movement and it causes losses in friendlies constantly. But if i just adapted my playstyle i would be dropping less games. I think it boils down to protecting ego and how much are you truly trying to reach the apex of competition.

[@matrixyst]

"marth is easy" (as if ANYTHING about melee is "easy") is easily one of the dumbest, completely automaton parroted things that melee players say (and there's a lot of dumb things melee players say) on a related note, i think it's super hypocritical that a lot of people in the community love clowning on ultimate players for constantly complaining about characters and matchups they don't like when melee players are literally just as - if not more - unbelievably whiny; fox players complain about marth, marth players complain about sheik, sheik players complain about puff, puff players complain about fox - you get the idea. i really respect top players who set a good example for the community by not participating in this because it's so toxic and wholly unproductive

[@alexanderbateman5581]

Some melee players complained so much that they banned a combo on a mid tier character. Although I think that there's a difference in that top ult players will also complain about the game while it's less common for top melee players. Maybe it's because you can't really be a top melee player and also be overly whiny, it's not a mindset that lends itself to long term improvement

[@vanillafella4893]

@@alexanderbateman5581 wobbling is not a combo nor is it on a mid character😭

[@regardingSumi]

@@vanillafella4893 how is wobbling not a combo? and are icies not mid tier?

[@acidrazor66]

@@alexanderbateman5581 jeez, imagine calling wobbling a COMBO 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@yu1zy]

@@acidrazor66 it's the truest of combos

[@boardwalk2003]

Would love to see toph try and create a character tierlist/skill level graph. Starting at absolute noob level working over to top 10 in the world. Fox is maybe one of the worst in the game before you stop side b off ledge and learn to recover. Marth/roy is probably top tier at the bottom skill level (fsmash lol) Falco gets a pretty big power buff once you learn SH laser. Etc.. Seeing all this represented in a graph could be interesting and lead to some interesting conversation

[@Jakerunio]

Man, Inkling in ultimate is sick but when I have to switch off to my secondary zelda for half the matchups in the game because zoners are so awful to fight in that game. Sure, the matchups are doable but its a huge uphill battle that isn't worth the effort, and combined with the amount of walking and slow approaches you have to use (because shield-stopping isn't a thing, and wavelanding off of platforms isn't a thing, etc.) it just makes the matchups unfun... and its part of why I quit ultimate. Even when I was winning it just wasn't enjoyable, because there are a LOT of zoners in ultimate and, consequently, a lot of players who play those characters. So in short, I agree that its nice to have zoners and "cheesy" characters, but only if they have critical flaws that make them not overly safe/busted.

[@LuichoX203]

i dont think i got the point about the "i wouldve won that if i played right" mentality thing, is it that there should be more than just that takeaway to be able to improve even if that one takeaway is still right?

[@spacevadr10]

it's just about accepting/acknowledging that sometimes you knowingly made bad choices/execution, strayed from the gameplan

[@bennettpalmer1741]

If you think "I should just not SD or misinput my combos, then I'd win", even if that's true, there are other things in the game that probably put you in the situation where SDing cost you the victory. All humans SD sometimes, there isn't really much room for improvement in that aspect of the game. But maybe you aren't ledgetrapping optimally, or you're making mistakes in neutral. These are things that you can actually improve, but if you focus on the unavoidable mistake, you won't spend time practicing these things, and you'll get stuck.

[@spacevadr10]

bennett palmer yeah but nobodies saying to avoid looking into the more in-depth aspects of your gampleay lol the mentality aspect is just a basic reminder to yourself. Sometimes you know you weren’t committing to playing your plan out and admitting that makes it easier to see the more detailed issues. It’s just a basic self-check not a full on analysis

[@ASCENDANTGAMERSAGE]

I miss you Toph. I can't watch any of the other top content creators because they're so mean. :( I really appreciate that you're nice (or at least tactful) especially to new players.

[@ASCENDANTGAMERSAGE]

Also, playing melee is a lot less fun if i'm not watching content. I play a lot less melee when the creator community is just a bunch of flaming a**holes. This video made me want to play Melee

[@hipwitthekids793]

example? if ur mature enough you should be able to tell most shit talk is trolling. besides, if you’re on the sensitive side, check out PPMD or any of the “documentary” type melee creators, like turndownforwalt or PGstats

[@twelvevoltage]

KZbinrs to watch: turndownforwalt, Asumsaus, Ludvix

[@xgino850ginox]

If we are talking tas what about yoshi? Or even Ics with wobbles

[@DandyOh]

I get these Puffs on netplay that just sit in corner spam bair, an occasional sibe b and never approach. Even when behind they don't switch up their style. During these matches I sit there and wonder what they get out of the experience. Do they enjoy melee at all? It can't be enjoyable to never finish a match, because I feel like 80% of their opponents just quit out. The players that don't quit out are probably too good for them, proceed to absolutely wreck them and then leave after 1/2 games. Are these Puff players just stuck in a never-ending braindead limbo? Someone help me understand.

[@Buzzerman2120]

Melee is a fighting game where you can win by not interacting witht the opponent. It attracts certain players that know they can pull stuff like you're describing to get people mad and still win. Imo it's not even about character ive seen Puffs that are way too aggressive and fox players that dont even dash dance they sit with their backs turned waiting to up-tilt or back air.

[@jakezepeda1267]

Lucky for me im garbage so the puffs at my level DO interact.

[@DontTipMe]

The Marth hate is slowly growing, pay attention. Thankfully, based Toph is here to defend us 😎

[@ElDrHouse2010]

No, the cheapest would be Jigglypuff but yes Marth is easy.

[@purplism4857]

fax

[@purplism4857]

shiek is 5x easier to play than marth. jiggs as well.

[@user-xm6lg2mf5h]

Are we bringing back 60/40?

[@trollof229antthevariable9]

The most annoying character is by far Falco. I'm bitching but laser spam is just unconscionable. I hate it. When I'm playing someone really good it's like I either hit the power shield or I just get combo'd for an inordinately long amount of time. Marth does the same shit too with the up airs but it's far less annoying.

[@33kappa1]

yea it's the worst when they realize they even don't need to go in and just spam lasers in 1 spot. It is literally only fun for 1 person. The closest thing I can think of is running away as Puff, It's like I GET IT you can do this whenever you please congratulations I don't wanna play anymore

[@harpot678]

Why does anyone even play the game if the most common netplqy character us the most annoying?

[@33kappa1]

@@harpot678 he’s just so damn fun I can’t even blame em… plus destroying mid level falcos is a glorious feeling (especially with ganon)

[@PoseidonGaming100]

Then they quit out if another character hits them with their own, usually significantly worse, projectiles a single time

[@awisefool1975]

The trick to playing against Falco is that powershield is normally not the answer. It can be AN answer, but mixing that up with acting out of the laser stun and retaliating or going to platform makes you a lot less predictable.

[@wesleymcbob]

will this title thumbnail combo make YOUR video get views?

[@mylittlepimo736]

I think that floaty vs floaty matchups are really bad because floaty on floaty combos have no chase. Each match needs one fastfaller in it. Peach vs Fox? Great. Peach vs Puff? Unwatchable. That’s why it’s good that the Meta is dominated by fast fallers.

[@JG-fx2ez]

Fk it who ever you main is, PREVAIL

[@BobardeZanzibar]

As far as protagonist syndrome goes, I think Llod is touching on what PPMD thinks about it. Sometimes you're just playing badly because your opponent figured you out. I'd probably say that it is more your opponent being hard to play against than just randomly messing up tech.

[@Grey-ew6rq]

I don't understand how saying you wouldve won if you played better is bad. Its just being honest?

[@TheAmazingMrSloop]

Not gonna say sheik is the best character now like leffen? lmao

[@eragon78]

We all know Leffen just rolls a wheel every 6 months to determine his new opinion on the best character in the game. Fox, Falco, Marth, Puff, Sheik, pretty sure he's said they were all the best at one point or another lol. Maybe not falco, I dont remember, but the other 4 for sure.

[@confucheese]

@@eragon78 Oh you mean like literally every single top player okay cool nice 👍

[@yoush3599]

@@confucheese no, its always leffen who pushes these narratives… mango for example is always firm on fox being the best.. hbox always firm on that too… all the other top players don’t really voice their opinions that hard too. In 2018, leffen convinced all his pleb followers that puff is broken and should be banned. In 2019, all he talked about was marth being brain dead broken vs fox. Now that he’s lost to jmook, well you know the drill.

[@yeahno555]

​@@eragon78 Dark Triad always changes their viewpoints to people-please :^)

[@blooburryz6887]

If you just wanna hate Leffen at least try not to put words in his mouth when you do, he's never said that sheik is the best character

[@animaIpath]

bruh marth is not broken lmao. ex spacie here, and I told people in 2014 how good marth is. i been saying marth beats species lol now everybody wants to come out with these revelations. corny

[@omega_dip_wod]

Marth is tougher than he looks but Fsmashers make it seem like he gets away with more. Shiek is far and away the easiest character in the game, it's not even close. However that isnt saying she is OP or the best choice for tournament but you will see more success with low execution and the character only becomes hard when youre playing people with more than 2 years under their belt.

[@SlutForInstantNoodles]

[@Cobbbler]

I can't agree with Puff being good for the game. During the era where HBox was in Grand Finals of almost every major, I basically stopped watching Melee. Even Puff/Fox is just boring. Literally no one at my weekly would talk about grand finals because hardly anyone bothered watching, even our Puff main (super nice guy), who was ranked top 3. I like all the other floaties, and I don't hate on people for playing Puff, but I do hate watching and playing against Puff. She's the most anti-fun thing in Melee by a mile.

[@jsweeney7359]

Replace all of the puffs with peach and I would agree

[@erico9390]

Real Leffen mentality right here

[@kotasake]

Leffen tweet vibes ngl

[@Cobbbler]

@@erico9390 Hahaha, I definitely see it. I think it's a pretty common opinion, though. Almost everyone I know who actually regularly plays Melee thinks Puff is boring, but maybe it's just cause I'm west coast.

[@krowpan799]

Leffen alt account??

[@seanathan1]

FIRST

[@GrnAzn]

Vouch

[@person11q96]

Nobody cares

[@seanathan1]

@@person11q96 I care.

[@regardingSumi]

@@person11q96 i also care

[@magnusm1]

Were someone overdosing on ritalin while editing this? I see the effort but please let the man breath, this barrage just becomes noise after a while.

[@Uberjunge]

Lmao

[@seanathan1]

Sorry it was too good to not use while making this video