Pro Gamer Thinks Tournaments Are Rigged

A week or two ago, there was some drama over in FGC Twitter Land about the concept of seeding in tournaments. While I don't always react to all of the hot takes I see on Twitter (ha ha), I thought this particular instance of seeding discussion could yield some good discussion, and some fun stories from my past about players like Mang0 and Hungrybox.
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edited by ‪@c0rnflake‬ ► / c0rnflake1
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#FGC #SmashBros #tophbbq

[@tysonfontanez]

Clearly every tournament should just be a round robin

[@Killopotamus]

I’ve played in a round robin regional. Yes it took for fucking ever, but you KNEW your place for sure lmao

[@xxProjectJxx]

If time weren't a factor, that would unironically be ideal

[@theWIIISEguy]

The time it takes, is the reason it's not used.

[@thunderbolt1213984]

I’m surprised we haven’t introduced semi randomized reseeding at important break points in tournaments like top 8/16/64. Tennis and the atp have been doing it for years and it fixes so many problems it’s a way to make the minutia of ranking matter a lot less. You don’t gain much by being ranked 3rd vs 4th. And it adds variety to our top 8 matches. It may add bad feels when you get an unlucky draw, but I think that’s better then having a humans bias absolutely screw your next 6 months of tournaments

[@thunderbolt1213984]

@HoneyPopsicle 1. we cant always just take top players opinions as our only options. also, theres ways to tweak this system so we dont have egregious matchups happening early. specifically, playing zain first round of top 8 is not terribly early to play the 1st seed. if all goes as seeds, the 4th best player in the tourny should be playing him. if you do a semi random draw split into 4 groups (top two seeds play bot two seeds in both upper and lower bracket) the worst matchup you can get is the 3rd seed playing 1st seed) but it takes out the human bias of whos 3rd vs 4th seed. this is just 1 example. the eseeding doesnt have to happen top 8 but could be top 12 or 16. At some point you have to take competitive integrity and spectator interest over the individual squabbles of players. If anything this system helps someone like leffen who is regularly under seeded. btw i agree with you that guys like ibdw and leffen will bitch. Its in their blood. i say let them. its alright if they do. adds a little spice to melee anyways.

[@traplover6357]

Sounds like a good compromise

[@XxSuperPhilxX]

Seems like a good idea. With current seeding it feels like when a higher seed get upset "it throws the bracket in shambles" and top player complain on twitter after that. Look at Genesis 8, even with a good seeding, the hypest match happened in quarter (Zain vs iBDW) and the GF was a formality. I just think TOs should just have the presence of mind to put the matches with top players on stream (or at least record them) even if they happen in round 1 of pool

[@Deadgye]

Makes the most sense to me. There's some silly shenanigans with normal seeding where low to mid skill players get eliminated from losers by the same person that knocked them into losers well before losers semis. Maybe I'm just remembering shit bracket tools though. Anyway, at majors it doesn't really make sense for there to be more than 1 or 2 seed levels in top 8. It's melee, anything can happen.

[@YURTZYN42]

@HoneyPopsicle its p easy tbh.. let's say we have 40ppl in a tourney. top 6-8 are in a tier that gets randomized and basically a player cannot be paired with another in the same tier. 9-15 are the 2nd tier, 16-24 are a 3rd and 25-40 are last. every tier is randomized so if you're a lower level player, you'll get 25 through 40 and if you're top you'll get 1 through 6 or 8. All tops will get the bottom 6-8 of the last tier seeds as their r1 which adds a little bit of randomn fairness to lower level players so they're not ALWAYS sacked in r1 as the remaining last tier seeds will go against 2nd or 3rd tiers or possibly eachother in some cases and the 2nd and 3rd tiers will generally face eachother in r1, its not a very complex idea if you break it down mathematically.

[@lio5605]

NEW TOPH VIDEO BABE WAKE UP!!!

[@HUMAN234789561290]

YES SIRRR

[@thelocs5935]

I thought it had been a while lol turns out it's been a month. Good to see toph back

[@Tophbbq]

YEAHHHH

[@hibernate44]

Finally

[@CreamyPesto505]

@@thelocs5935 Yeah, I've been wondering why there hasn't been much peripheral smash content lately, then I remembered there were like 4 straight majors lol.

[@SimpleFlips]

Well spoken as always Toph ❤️

[@Thatfruitydude]

Wow 🐐 s recognize

[@kameqblindweaver8296]

Complicated flips

[@YURTZYN42]

I'm gonna agree with how n0ne sees it that if you're a good player complaining about seeding its like shut up lol at that point your skill is where you should be able to tackle all kinds of situations. Seeding really screws the lower end players trying to climb up because they're constantly being sacked to players they have no chance against. I understand how seeding works and why it works the way it does, which is for the viewers and better players meeting eachother towards the end, but only lower level players on the grind should express their distaste in it. If you're at the top, idk, shutup lol its like "waaaah, i want free wins" its why lately I've noticed this trend where lower level players just accept their fate by DQing their round 1s and focusing on making a loser's run because there's just no point stressing a match against someone who is leagues better than you. All in all, I understand why seeding exists and it makes melee tournaments exciting for the spectators. Its just a hell hole when you're trying to make a name for yourself as an upcoming player and you're literally being sacrificed to sharks in bracket. Its cool at first, but as time goes on, it gets pretty aggravating.

[@patchesohullihan]

Military Grade Based!

[@DavidSchleigh]

Idk if I was a nobody and had a match against top players I would be hella excited.

[@yasserjimenez8070]

Seeding actually also helps lower players. Yeah sure they may get knocked down by top player from winners, but if there’s no seeding then top players can play round one and then someone is going to have to play a top player in their second set and definitely lose

[@StormySensei]

I'm surprised you didn't bring up how seeding is even more important for those outside of top 6 - no one wants to lose to the people who would go on to get 1st and 2nd, but you end up placing 33rd. If seeding isn't done right, you may not be able to accurately assess mid- and high-level talents.

[@bonzjoe]

I hope the smash world tour or something like it becomes the standard for crowning the champion of the year, having a circuit solves most of the problems of relying on a statistical ranking . you're already seeing one of them this year with top players attending more b tier and foreign events than they have been for years

[@NinjaLobsterStudios]

RIP

[@kneo12]

RIP

[@Willow1662]

I love how into every little bit toph gets. Like. The “we got the stats” is ok it’s whatever. But toph looks so earnestly proud of it. Goat

[@anthonytorres1818]

Dude I haven't kept up with melee in a few years, amsa speaking fluent English blew me away! That's so impressive

[@The_SOB_II]

Being number one is so fucking fucking fucking hard. Trying to apply that standard to so many players at once is just silly

[@Hungry_Burger]

Thank you for this post and discussion toph, your vids are always thought provoking!

[@irongiant5951]

Love hearing tophs takes, stories, advice, and seeing him of GG, love seeing toph in general

[@dusting1593]

I saw the title and thumbnail and thought a lot about my feelings on it before actually watching… and then I watched and you said nearly exactly what I was thinking. Seeding is VERY important and is kinda the backbone of keeping the scene alive when there’s so little money in it… I love watching melee so much and it’s truly so upsetting we don’t have more money in it to keep top players grinding their hardest and have super intense hype tournaments. Cody is a great example of this right now. I really hope things change and melee lives on much longer ❤

[@sinfinite7516]

Idk abt seeding but L4st and anyone else being a coach and an organizer is kinda sus bc he can choose seeding and be invested in certain players. Meaning they are in a position to be tempted to manipulate the bracket.

[@kr1spness]

That is possible at top level for deciding who gets top 16 if they just keep seeding the same over many events. Could randomize certain sections of seeding so a person isn't gate kept a few places in RPS fashion if they could beat the person who regularly beats you, but there's been enough variety in our placings to show that isn't really happening at the moment. Bracket rigging is a strong word.

[@harpot678]

I'll be honest, my reality was bent when I was listening to one of the Melee Stats Podcasts, and they tell a story of a year that if Leffen just won 1 more tournament, he would be ranked No. 1 that year. He then said 'The seeder for that final tournament gave the No.1 spot to Leffen on a SILVER PLATTER, and Leffen lost'. For context, Melee Stats seed all major tournaments. If this isn't them blatantly admitting to literal bracket rigging, I don't know what is

[@zjmullan]

​@@harpot678even tho this is just a game, sometimes i fuckin hate the world

[@garyzhang6130]

It's a bit discouraging to newer players because low seeding means that you will be paired with one of top 8 first round. For example, as a new player back in 2015 I was paired with llod at my college first round. It makes getting your first tournament victory a little harder to achieve.

[@scottjolteon9033]

The only reason I make it out of locals even though I have to play half the top 8 in my country is because we usually have 24 players or less, so yeah I can see how seeding gets frustrating in bigger events, it's hard to see progress if you play people way above your level early

[@E-Brightvoid]

Can Leffen ever NOT stir the pot?

[@mynameisrandy]

if people aren't mad at him, how will he know if he still exists?

[@Masaru_kun]

The new definition of ratio'd makes no sense at all... Accounts with a lot of followers will 'ratio' pretty much anything they retweet. I miss the days of retweets vs. likes, because that's a valid way to actually judge a tweet.

[@thejellyjiggler4148]

I wonder how tournament attendance would look like if we weighted wins more than losses. So if A is upset by B, A’s rank is not really affected while B’s improves. Like a ranking system where you only gain points by beating people rather than losing points for losing matches.

[@isambo400]

Well, if nobody above you goes down, how do you go up?

[@domninin]

I feel like there has to be a middle ground. Like seeding the top 16 like we do now and randomly seeding the rest, so new players don't always get dumpstered by way better players in the first round. And reseeding randomly at top 16 or something like that

[@BBB-pe3ip]

Sometimes they are rigged. I've gone to local Melee tournaments in SoCal where the TO gives his friends easy brackets and gives people he dislikes harder brackets. I didn't want to join any tournaments because I could tell he disliked my friends and my playstyle.

[@zjmullan]

Idc if you play puff and only up-throw rest, that's lame af

[@Slatanata22]

I feel what you're saying about the line between good for the game and good for the player but i also think hbox could improve his game in other ways to get an advantage besides just planking the ledge

[@perriwinkleiii5361]

3:29 here after aMSa finally held it down and won The Big House 10! The grind pays off

[@dickfart69]

I think being ranked is a more realistic goal for most Smash players than having a loving girlfriend lol

[@wordsayer19]

On the topic of players not wanting to play locals/smaller tournaments because of their ranking, I feel like there are several things we could do to help with that. For one, don't make locals count against your national ranking (maybe that's been done before? idk) Though I think a very elegant solution would be making a cutoff at the bottom 20% of a player's tournament performances. For instance, if they attended 10 tournaments, their worst 2 don't count against their rank. If they attended 15, the bottom 3 don't count. That way aMSa doesn't have to worry about 1 loss at a small tournament ruining his entire ranking. And it could even encourage players to attend more big tournaments because they want to push their bad performances past the cutoff. Obviously you would have to play with the numbers to balance it. Like maybe 15% or 25% instead of 20%. Or cutting off upsets on top of/instead of tournaments. Or how you calculate more vs less stacked tournaments. etc... Details could get difficult, but that's what PGstats is for. lol

[@Deadgye]

Let's make up a magical new bracket system for majors/minors that gives more byes to higher seeds and more matches to lower seeds. It sounds even more rigged but I promise you low to mid skill players would rather have to win 2-3 matches against their skill level than get knocked to losers by a top 8 player in the first round.

[@BringBackOGClubPenguin]

As a noob I agree

[@wompastompa3692]

Lol, Perfect 13gend.

[@captaintreeko3188]

Something that's a biproduct of seeding is the fact that seeding does not care about your matchup. The seeding is just how good you are/your likelihood of winning the tournament, which doesn't mean that the 1st seed fox won't go up against many marths, or like your matchups are pretty out of your control. Being a first seed, and supposedly getting the 'easiest' road, by seeding yes, but I think individual seeding doesn't matter much. Like if you're in top 16, and you're playing someone in the range of the 16th or below seed, the seeding of the player doesn't matter half as much as the matchup you will have to play.

[@arichalian108]

you grew your facial hair in a few frames. what a legend

[@TaIathar]

Seeding only works (and should only be applied) when there is an odd number of players in a tournament. Similar to what Magic: The Gathering (MTG) does. Everyone gets paired up randomly for round 1, and if there's an odd number of players, the player with the lowest ranking in the tournament gets the "bye" (or seeding) for that round (a free win without having to play). This usually means that the seeded player doesn't make it to the top 8/16/whatever. MTG also uses a global online ranking system to determine players' rank so a setup like this might not be possible for the first round of the tournament, but it would work for subsequent rounds as the lowest-ranked (based on performance) would be the player who had the quickest loss. Again, not sure how well this would work in Smash, but wanted to put the idea how there and the Smash community is free to build on it and hopefully can come up with something that works.

[@LightsOutAce1]

Fwiw, I ran a local Melee tournament for 30-40 Wisconsin/Chicago players with Swiss in 2011 and it was fine. Granted, I ran wild stuff in those days like Cactuar ruleset (bo7 2 stock matches with all stages legal)

[@CSharp__]

me when leffen gets seeded over ibdw 💀

[@itsyaboi1245]

So zoinked thought it was 2015

[@ghostaccountlmao]

I play competitive Magic the Gathering, which has used a seeding system for literally every competitive level of the game outside of kitchen table games. A commonly overlooked truth of MTG tournaments, especially at our equivalent of "locals" known as FNM, is that many people have bracket demons due to seeding. And overcoming your personal demon, such as cracking a top 8, finally winning X matches, or even beating a very specific person, is something that is cherished by a lot of the community. Even the original creator of the game acknowledged the nature of bracket demons and how positively it impacts the community by creating personal achievements in a tournament setting where there is technically only 1 official "winner". Seeding has a lot of merits.

[@thunderbolt1213984]

Ok but mtg is a very different game with very different tournaments structures. almost all constructed events (even at the FNM level) are swiss format. seeding for a top 8 is decided by that and not a committee like melee is. I dont think we can look to MTG as a way to fix melee tourney structures. Narratives around beating bracket demons is fun, but it doesnt mean spectators (or competitors) want to see the same two people play and the same place in bracket every tourney

[@Simon_E32]

Alukard is truly an unsung hero of melee, I'm glad he's doing well in dbfz and other traditional fighters

[@stormcat3648]

Always love a good Toph upload

[@Uberjunge]

We got the stats *boom* I love it

[@triangle1332]

People complaining about Melee tournament format need to take a look at how the chess world does it. They take the top 8 players, do a 3 week long DOUBLE round robin tournament. And then the winner of that tournament gets to play the current champ.... who skipped the whole tournament and gets a free pass to the grand finals. It's actually insane.

[@rivahs]

My biggest takeaway is that I need a new chair. Any recs to a fox player?

[@anthonygillette]

I think it’s fair to say, if someone wins a tournament, then wins another, then places top 3 in 9 other tournaments, it makes sense that they have a bit of an easier time making it back to the top 5 to have a chance to beat their peers. If you have never gotten that high, you should have to beat those who’ve proven themselves as consistent players to be considered a true winner. Imagine if the actual top 40 get knocked out early by losing to eachother too early and then the semis and finals are players who are clearly not on the same level are what the tournament hosts are streaming now; spectators would be rightfully upset. We’ve seen people win far above their seat, and earned their higher rankings going forward, or even win majors against some of the best players around. Because they earned it and fought their way through the best of the best.

[@roderik1990]

Honestly I feel like the problem isn't so much the seeding, though that seriously sucks for the non-seeded players. But it's single elimination that makes it so bad.

[@turkeyman631]

I mean if they could beat the seeded people they would be seeded themselves you feel me. But yeah, single elim is dumb.

[@seanblake7554]

I feel like as a viewer seeding is super important especially because I, like a lot of viewers, just watch top 8, so if Zain and Hbox go at it top 32 or even the first match because of random bracket, it makes the top 8 way less exciting

[@owenbogle9843]

As someone who comes from Valorant, where the seeding is kind of random, god damn it sucks. It’s basically the winner of one group is randomly placed against second place, which in international events, means that there are teams that get to play against one international team before they are eliminated. Seeding may not be objective, but it’s a hell of a lot better than the alternatives

[@thunderbolt1213984]

Random placements causing the two best teams to play round one are kinda solved by the double elim format that all fighting games have implemented. Im never going to look towards a riot event to learn how to run a well structured tournament or league

[@rhorantyko7796]

The major asian leagues of LoL run their leagues quite well with a mixture of seasonal and yearly performance determining attendance at the major international event each year, but said international event leaves a lot to be desired mostly because it's extremely unforgiving for teams and heavily and systematically skewed to the major regions every year. The long term result of this - imo - is the eSport being super corporate.

[@Msujfears]

I have no idea what this video is, just dropping by to say I thought that said “FCG needs to stop seeding” and I thought Fresh Cut Grass was trying to reproduce in the newest episode of Critical Role. Anyway, here’s a random comment to help you with the algorithm!

[@patheticworm]

New toph vid lets fucking gooooooo

[@GirlDotJpeg]

toph upload Pog

[@ErikSeastead]

If tournaments were a test of skill more than a spectacle they would be round robins. It is important for the community for them to be a blend of both.

[@isambo400]

You have to eliminate players or it will take too long

[@metalgamer21]

Oh god, not PerfectLegend. I don't know the full story behind this guy other than stuff between him and SonicFox but from what I've seen so far this guy is a bad takes machine.

[@just.Harley]

Okay to be fair, hbox did end up beating Zain in the next major, and ending Zains losers run, so seed still isnt everything

[@mediamastermenard2858]

Only real ones remember the REAL definition of ratio’d!

[@fructosecoma2721]

toph i love you man but 'we got stats' is not the one, sorry to tell you

[@jk844100]

Perfect 13gend? Now that’s a name I’ve not heard in a long time

[@metalgamer21]

"I beat Tian, told him to just quit" lmfao

[@xxProjectJxx]

Seeding is mainly a benefit for spectators and for the most high level players, but it does create an unfair bracket.

[@harrylane4]

It’s as simple as introducing dual elim tournaments honestly.

[@Bfire0]

tophstradamus with the prediction

[@aaronz6236]

I feel like people are missing the point of why seeding exists lol. Seeding PROTECTS competitive integrity. Seeding VALIDATES tournament results. Yes it allows for “top players” to have an “easier” pools, but it helps the finals placing new more reflective of power rankings. If Punk goes 0/2 bc he lost to Daru and Hotashi out the gate in some completely randomized brackets, are we supposed to believe that he’s a worse player than little Timmy who went 1-2? Of course not. On the other hand, if little Timmy, an unseeded player, makes it to top 8, we’ll know that he’s probably godlike bc there was definitely killers in and out of his group that he had to overcome to get to where he is. Good shit, Timmy. In conclusion, seeding help top players achieve placements that are reflective of their hard work and dedication, and helps create meaningful paths for new faces since going on a deep tournament run doesn’t mean that they just lucked out on the easiest opponents known to man. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.

[@charliericker274]

Yup, that is one of the main reason. You don't want potential finalists to knock each other out in the round of 300 or some shit.

[@xmasknight94]

Fuego Slogan.

[@SkarmoryMelee]

12:27 isn't this kind of the point though? Players who are *expected* to do better get an advantage due to their higher seeding, because they have to fight less people. If they're so good, that shouldn't be a problem to begin with.

[@nizzwarb764]

I have to agree w the PGstats, we got the stats, explosion

[@roccotopliff4843]

Good takes as always

[@shanepage8041]

Sup Toph sick vid

[@VisaCardholder]

I want to be better than my friends. I think my end goal is to be a relevant player. I don't think #1 is feasible for me. But right now if I can beat Alien and Purpletuce then I'm pretty happy.

[@Jayluna98]

Pog good video nice Ted Talk

[@chloeligma3883]

no actually i think that guy was right. we in the fgc need to stop protecting people like mkleo from my 400k gsp g&w 😤😤😤

[@wordsayer19]

For me, seeding is a matter of competitive integrity more than anything. Seeding gives players long-term rewards for performing well, and allows tournaments to be a more accurate representation of everyone's skill. Tournaments at their core are a test of skill across a large number of people. And sure, the best player "should" be able to beat everyone at the tournament, but that only really tests who the BEST player is. In an unseeded, single-elim bracket, the best player could fight the 2nd best player in round 1, and the 2nd best player ties for last place. Double-elim gives the 2nd best player a chance to come back to grands, but the 3rd best player could still get unlucky and fight #1 and #2 early. The only way to combat this on a large scale is with seeding. Proper seeding ensures the better players have a fair shot at making it farther in the bracket so the placements more accurately reflect the skill and performance of everyone. Not just #1 and #2.

[@ShesBearynice]

No. The tournament is inherently inaccurate if it’s rigged to help make some players get higher placements than others, regardless of external performance. How well you did in one thing doesn’t mean anything in another. And if you lose early because you lost to someone who’s a crazy prodigy, who cares- it’s indistinguishable from any other loss. If you were a low seed losing to a high seed, it wouldn’t matter, so why would it matter if two high seeds fought and one lost? It sounds like ranking systems are stupid. They are.

[@ShesBearynice]

Oh, and it doesn’t matter who is second best. First place losers don’t need to be remembered, right?

[@wordsayer19]

If 1st place is all that matters, 95% of us shouldn't be playing the game, because most of us will never come close to being the best in a region, let alone the world. Proper ranking and seeding give a more accurate idea of EVERYONE'S skill level so you can give credit where it's due and track long-term improvement in a meaningful way.

[@harrylane4]

@@ShesBearynice “it’s actually better to toss out half of the top 8 so the rest of the tournament isn’t balanced and one person absolutely shits all over everyone for the second half of the bracket”

[@harrylane4]

@@ShesBearynice if you think the only thing about a tournament is “come in first or go fuck yourself,” you have more issues than seeding my man

[@jeffersonroberts8263]

Mango zain on Saturday night!!!!!

[@glenndiddy]

I agree with this somewhat. There are top players who have barely played each other in multiple years. This obviously makes no sense. Lets say Hungrybox always loses to IBDW, but they don't get matched up in bracket for 2 years. Wouldn't this just mean it's rigged in Hbox' favour? The fact that some people play 50+ sets in a year while others play 1 or 2 over 5 years total makes no sense to begin with. Seeding needs to be fixed

[@ShesBearynice]

*abolished

[@diego4lonso]

Toph, do you think melee needs something like the FIFA?

[@Tophbbq]

Rather than the FIFA, I think Melee needs something more like the BOFA.

[@diego4lonso]

@@Tophbbq u'r right :)

[@yeetmaniac163]

@@Tophbbq whats BOFA

[@killercore007]

5:49: Good for Melee --- Good for players So basically do it for respect from the overall community or out of selfish greed?

[@sylascole5254]

Wasn't PL the dude that got 13-0'd in a ft10

[@Riokaii]

The environment is what determines who the best players are. We dont know who the best player with all stages legal items on is, because thats not our environment. In a similar way as what stages and items are allowed, seeding is the same thing. If you are a player reliant on seeding to go far in a tournament, you are not a top player, straight up. Top player can be defined as someone who succeeds as a product of the environment of seeding. Thats not to say that seeding doesnt matter, it obviously does. But the mistake is the mentality of a player to blame seeding instead of treating it as just a piece of the environment to overcome.

[@DIVAD291]

The beauty of being human is that we have some control over the environment. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the people that chose the environment.

[@heyzeuscreestow9394]

We have the meats

[@osrsgold2547]

Is Monogatari worth watching

[@RePlayQ]

As a bad player, I’d rather lose to hbox in round 1 of winners than round 2 of losers.

[@isambo400]

Could be 16 rounds of swiss with a cut to top 8 lol

[@Ralkila]

He just wants the brackets to be random for him to get a chance to get asian players to clean his path and avoid every stage to be full of gatekeepers + the best second of the pool. If pools where random there is a chance for your path to be cleaned and killers to get full skirmish in top 128 and perfect legend get an easy path to top 32 and claim that he is still relevant. This isn't a problem in smash cause you just have 10 dedicated players and 500 pot monsters in every major. So leffen will never notice how it is to have internationals flooding the pools.

[@Shmicah1235]

Hah, Panda moment

[@adamtorrie5938]

Yeah! Toph is so based

[@Eggroll3s]

PL had to wake up and drop the stupidest tweet ever lmao. Crazy

[@BL3446]

That mentality of "i wanna beat everyone here" is so flawed though. Like of course I want to, but I would know if it is feasible or not. I just want to do better than the last tournament. And I cant do so if i gotta play Mango round 1.

[@Saltyoven]

Of course perfect 13gend says that.

[@bennettpalmer1741]

Hot take: Smash should consider adopting a Swiss tournament structure. Basically, each round of the tournament is random pairings among people with the same record as you. So, people who have lost no games get paired against each other, people with 1 loss get paired against each other, people with 2 losses get paired against each other, etc. After a predefined number of rounds, the top 8 competitors are arranged into a bracket, where they compete as normal. At the top levels, it's somewhat similar to an elimination bracket, where losing more than x number of matches (which depends on how many rounds you're playing and how many competitors there are) means you aren't going to be able to qualify for top 8. But at the lower levels, it's considerably more "fun", because everyone gets to play a full tournament's worth of matches, even if they're awful. So, there's no such thing as driving to the next state over to compete in a tournament, only to go 0-2 and not get to compete anymore, basically wasting your weekend. You might be out of top 8 contention, but you can still keep playing, and potentially salvage a decent result. Someone who loses their first 2 games and wins the next 8 gets the same placing as someone who wins their first 8 and loses their last 2. Also, it eliminates the grueling long losers runs, because everyone plays the same number of matches until the cut to top 8. The downsides are, it can be unclear whether a given player is actually in top-8 contention, as opposed to the double elimination where everyone competing is always in contention, and that because there are a lot more people playing in the later rounds instead of being eliminated and going home, it tends to take a decent amount longer. The largest downside, in my opinion, is that spots 7-10 or so can sometimes all have the same number of match wins, so the TO has to implement a tie break system, which can lead to feel bad moments where you get edged out of top-8 for some tie breaker reason that you don't often have much control over. Still, it's a very useful system for reducing the importance of seeding, and letting people who normally drown in pools find other people of similar level to them in the later rounds, where they normally wouldn't be playing at all, so I think it should be seriously considered.

[@qaasi95]

This is not a feasible solution, for the same reason every tournament isn't round robin. Literally no chance this ever gets implemented anywhere except maybe in small brackets like Summit where there are only 16 people instead of 1500. Tournaments already barely function within the typical time constraints, it is the single biggest logistical nightmare that constantly gets derailed. Any solution that "takes a decent amount longer" will have TO's hemorrhaging out of their eyes.

[@bennettpalmer1741]

@@qaasi95 "no chance this ever gets implemented anywhere" It's a very popular tournament structure in other games, such as Magic: the Gathering, Chess, Pokemon, and a lot of other games. This isn't something I pulled out of my ass, this is how tons of real life tournaments actually work. When I say it "takes a fair bit longer" I mean like, an hour longer total, and the timing is more reliable since every round takes the same amount of time.

[@qaasi95]

@@bennettpalmer1741 Dude I know. I didn't say you pulled it out of your ass, that's why I referenced another established tournament format that isn't used. TOs at major SMASH tourneys are desperately trying to keep to a time sensitive schedule and they still almost always fail to finish on time. They literally have negative room for error, they'd love tournaments to get shorter and faster than they currently are. This has nothing to do with competition in general, just smash.

[@derekchance3700]

​@@qaasi95 A swiss tournament requires the same number of rounds as a single-elimination bracket. There are factually tournaments run with similar entrant pools and timeframes as smash tournaments that use the swiss format. It does present some logistical challenges and maybe those are too much for smash TOs to bear with their given resources, but it's not necessarily unfeasible. Comparing it to a round robin is completely absurd. For a tournament of 1500 people, that's a difference between 8,250 sets over 11 rounds and 2.25M sets over 1,500 rounds.

[@qaasi95]

@@derekchance3700 okay. You're right. Comparing it to a round robin was very disingenuous.

[@kimpachis8841]

"this man actually thinks tournaments are rigged. go send him hate messages and bully him till he is off the internet" type shit

[@BigTaxiNY]

Why did you tell that guy to just quit? As a new player that's my nightmare, when I'm trying to learn and still lose, but get completely dunked on for no reason other than trying to force me to stop playing. Melee overall has a great community, though.

[@yonatanharris1539]

Its been 8 years

[@Bones0]

It was a Salty Suite show match. You will never be subjected to that level of trash talk as a new player or even as a high level player provided you don't challenge someone specifically for the purpose of proving you are better.

[@BigTaxiNY]

@@Bones0 Sweet, I didn't realize. Thanks.

[@brianrodriguez2597]

I love Toph 🔥🔥🔥

[@KuhEssen]

You are dating yourself saying a $7 chipotle burrito exists. It is more like $15

[@BlueGrovyle]

13:46 This is an issue with the nature of competition in the first place and why I personally view sports (electronic or otherwise) as more of an art form than a competition. Congrats to the winner, but I care more about watching great, inspiring gameplay that is enjoyable regardless of the context of a tournament. I care more about sick combos and impressive movement sequences and intricate neutral interactions. I can find fascination in the narratives sometimes, but I'm not always a fan of it due to how people are often idolized. The true beauty of Melee is the game itself.

[@alexiglesias7069]

Good

[@paulfong90]

Swiss

[@behemiokos414]

1:28 thank you god damn these zoomers need to know the rules

[@Kraafft]

Epic

[@BobbyReborn]

Friday being just for doubles - waste of a day. Sunday just for being top 8 - could have way more sets. Cramming everything into Saturday - exhausted players. It’s not fun watching top players 2-0 scrubs for the first 4 rounds of bracket. We want to see the best players play each other, gauntlet style. Bracket is a broken concept. .

[@George_Nakhle]

Waterfall brackets are the future lowkey

[@harrylane4]

Yeah we should just get the good players all together in a room What? How would we find out which players are good in the first place? Uh… you just know

[@berekexer8158]

Pretty much makes it so that the early parts of the tournament have no noteworthy matches. Seeding has never been fair and only a slight benefit for viewers.

[@CreamyPesto505]

7:55 @RXC143 in chat: I'm NOT knocking aMSa here, but he's really not better than the rest of Japan. He isn't even on the last Japanese PR from 2019. There's a handful of Japanese players that could consistently top 8, they just don't travel outside of Japan. aMSa's cracked, and no doubt nasty at Melee, but what works most in his favor are his mindset, and that most of NA and EU have no clue how to play against Yoshi. I'm not sure if he would get the same results playing a top tier.

[@Killopotamus]

If Amsa has been top 10 for years, what your implying seems ridiculous on its face. Like the top 20 is missing 10 Japanese people or the top 10 is missing 3 Japanese players? Seems really far fetched for a man that was just in Grand Finals. Japan has great players but even if you’re not underestimating Amsa, you’re greatly overestimating the other players and the people they would have to overcome (that Amsa already has and would beat 9 or 10 out of 10 times)

[@CreamyPesto505]

@@Killopotamus I'm not sure you read my comment. 🙂

[@Killopotamus]

@@CreamyPesto505 I re-read it and I don't agree

[@CreamyPesto505]

@@Killopotamus k.

[@crooker23]

He wasn't on the PR due to lack of attendance, not poor placing. Amsa rotates between 1st and 3rd when he plays in Japanese tournaments, and the people that he trades sets with do not top 8 in American majors. He literally is better than the rest of Japan, he just doesn't focus on that

[@josephtub]

For algo

[@Eval999]

lmao "seeding is just bracket rigging" is a schizo take, but a respectable one

[@juice17776]

It’s true. If you are a “top player” you usually get easy brackets so that you don’t have to try as hard to win.

[@unknownsoldier6731]

13-0

[@matrixxART]

I don't like this idea of valuing the spectator experience for melee. Growing the community and making spectating enjoyable is pointless because Melee will never die. Melee is for playing. The player experience is all that matters.

[@metapowm4881]

Genuinely braindead take

[@Shenkie]

Ban leffen.