Can we please stop doing this?

[@savageduck2613]

I think music scores are very useful. How else would I be able to read and play it on my instrument?

[@MicTheSnare]

10/10 good comment

[@toromomo8]

​@@MicTheSnareNOOO

[@JRTIntervencion]

I'll slap you xD

[@ianwilkes435]

Just gotta play it by ear ig

[@caiosoares3292]

You clearly don't play guitar

[@themahoneychops]

You’re killing it with the content lately 3.5 stars

[@mattiasgarbi9470]

Very Meltzerian (😅😂)

[@zojirushi1]

3.5 stars out of 3.5 stars lol

[@paisleepunk]

ah, going for the ebert system, are ya?

[@michaelphillips9185]

L. RE REVIEW RE REVIEW RE REVIEW RE REVIEW

[@SuperNuclearUnicorn]

3.642/8.5

[@GeneralDioxide]

My issue isn’t with numerical ratings necessarily, although it can be tedious and annoying. My issue is that the numbers are often meaningless.

[@MicTheSnare]

I think it's tricky too because numbers can mean different things to each of us. And it's not always possible to quickly understand what certain numbers mean to someone else.

[@stitchedwithcolor]

Hard agree. I firmly believe that almost nothing--school grades, music critiques, yelp reviews--is improved by an arbitrary numerical ratings system, unless those numbers are tied to something that can be measured or objectively identified, and even then only when you share the thing you used to arrive at that number so that others can grok it. Numerical ratings (and letter ratings, too!) are shorthand, and shorthand only works when we all agree on how to interpret the shorthand.

[@JDLaney-zk4wb]

You’re telling me that you can’t tell me the difference between an 8.3 album and an 8.4 album?

[@GeneralDioxide]

@@MicTheSnare I can’t argue, that’s solid logic.

[@agora_the_rapper]

Yeah, for me, the number changes too often for me to care enough

[@SteMail926]

Ive written for a few smaller independent publications, but by far my favourite for reviews has been The Quietus, because there's no scoring. Not only do people tend to engage more with the review and continue the discussion, but it also makes me think a lot harder and make my writing more clear and nuanced at the same time. Ratings can kill conversation, because people might see 6/10 and think that means the albums isn't worth talking about.

[@MicTheSnare]

Hard agree, The Quietus is great! I'll try to check out some of your pieces there

[@SteMail926]

@@MicTheSnare cheers! They usually have me on the oddball electronic stuff.

[@RobClouds]

Can you actually recommend some sites that give music recommendations like that. I have no idea where to look when trying to find something that is consistent and gives a good overall picture of what's coming out.

[@Apolloo171]

is there something similar for rap and electronic?

[@MoonSafariFilms]

@@Apolloo171 Resident Advisor for electronic music

[@Joey_Headset]

I feel like the argument for numerical ratings might have made slightly more sense in the pre-streaming era, when one of the function of reviews was to give consumers a sense of whether an album was worth the purchase price. In the age of streaming, that sort of review is of little value to listeners. Furthermore, I think certain review sites (including the one we're not mentioning), have truly weaponized those sorts of rankings to the point where they undermine the reviewer's integrity.

[@MicTheSnare]

Your point about whether an album was worth buying is an excellent one! I actually had a bit in my notes about that same idea, and it almost made it into this video. I might bring it back if I ever do something on the overall state of music reviews.

[@DumbIdeaPresentedStupidly]

But even then, giving the context of why someone dislikes a thing will always give you a better idea of if you might be into it yourself. A traditionalist older fella might not like how loud an angry a punk band is, but thats what you yourself might be looking for (and that band would be less cool if that dad did like it)

[@illford]

@@DumbIdeaPresentedStupidly you don't need a score for that though. You can always just have a summary and then a long review

[@jacksonmarlin6340]

Ok playing devil’s advocate here so please don’t hate me but wouldn’t now it also be important since there is SO much music that you can’t conceivably try it all

[@pipesoyogx]

i don't think i agree, nowadays we have too much information and knowledge to parse through so numerical ratings are useful, because we still need to decide what to listen to, mostly because we don't have the time to listen to all of it

[@MicTheSnare]

Thanks for watching! This one was an experiment for me - unlike most of my videos, a lot of this one was unscripted (and then edited and tinkered with to be actually coherent). Maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't. But it was a fun way to break out of my comfort zone, and I hope it gets a fun and respectful convo going. Anyway I’m gonna go listen to the new Blur and play Pikmin 4 now

[@connormartinson7619]

Hey mic I cited your video about ai music in an essay about the rise of Ai

[@doctorrogers6353]

Review didn't sync up with Shrek, 0/10

[@oisinq]

cool, i'm gonna go play pikmin also

[@prestong.6391]

mic where did you buy that shirt it's gorgeous

[@madcorndog]

Watch out for the bulborbs

[@2ndincommand350]

It’s been 5 seconds and I’m already on the edge of my seat, 10/10 video pookie

[@kewpr1941]

hehehehe pookie 🤣

[@crimson911]

🗿

[@TheMalappapas]

More like 7.2/10

[@themusicguyinthegroup9619]

…pookie?

[@kewpr1941]

@@themusicguyinthegroup9619 pookieeeee? 😐😐

[@jokeryeha5167]

Rate Your Music is truly amazing for cataloguing. I do rate every album I put in my list but it’s more for myself to remember my general enjoyment with an album, rather than how it coincides with others. And lists/catalogues are such an amazing way to find new music

[@raymaxxTV]

RYM is the most vile place when it comes to public reviews. abundance of snobs and wannabe critics

[@eieneidnf]

Tho honestly online discourse for music is a huge gamble cause you could be speaking with someone genuinely real or cool or someone in desperate need of touching grass; i would never bother to talk with people online about music unless ive met them face to face

[@guieming3018]

I usually rate to raise the avg of an album I hate rating but i’d love albums i like to get more attention

[@RoomieOfficial]

Great vid, enjoyed the looser style! The issue with ratings is the same as with any public statements in general to me. It’s very hard to add the ”in my opinion” back into someone confidently declaring ”micthesnare’s channel is a 3.7 out of 10” (it’s a 10/10 don’t worry 😌). If our brains were able to contextualize that someone’s opinion is - actually just their opinion - we’d just quietly seek out people whos opinions guide us better instead of getting mad at seemingly universal statements. Thanks for another great video :)

[@brnl9730]

but you see even you automatically clarified later that it's a 10/10 channel, we're so used to thinking that way

[@ThisBirdHasFlown]

Agreed. And I’m tired of people attempting to give their opinion more objective merit over other people’s. You’re allowed to simply like or dislike something and have no explanation for it and people are allowed to think differently.

[@AKawasaki]

Glad to know that two of my favorite music-related KZbinrs here enjoy each other’s content 😊

[@hthazee]

i totally agree bro, i never rated my reviews because of the numerous reasons you talk about. music is gonna hit everyone different and thats the beautiful thing about it!

[@shuirei]

hi troy

[@roramdin]

The intro was so darn good, love the new format!

[@atleast3bees]

holy ro incredible taste in youtubers

[@itsSimonBeck]

coming from the film rating side of things: i think it was Hbomberguy who said about reviewer Mark Kermode that Hbomb didn't always agree with Kermode but his reviews would give enough context that Hbomb would know if he would enjoy it. if everyone approached reviews from that perspective, a numerical score would just serve as an indicator of that particular reviewer's tastes. i also like how Letterboxd does movie reviews, where you can give it a ½-5 star rating *and* an optional heart to indicate whether you, you know, liked it. (although there should be a no-star option, come on LB) essentially, a numerical score should be a supplement to a longer explanation, not the point of a review, which is why i was happy that you didn't give number ratings during the QRB days but am more or less fine with Fantano giving number ratings.

[@carlykronish7161]

this is exactly how I feel seeing debates between different kpop groups fandoms!! it’s all about sales, streams and music show wins more than the actual music being released it’s so frustrating

[@LynnHermione]

Sales and streams are tangible proof that people enjoy the music and its what makes the artists get paid. By all means go pirate your faves ,they'll flop and disband in one year

[@bluelover110]

@@LynnHermione That's not the whole point here. Yes sales and streams are tangible proof of people enjoying the music, but it isn't the *only* proof. People stream said artist millions of times because of the competitiveness of the fandom and want their artist to be the best (at times out of obligation rather than actually enjoying the music), but there needs to be more discussion on the music from these artists, not the number of streams and sales they get.

[@Billiamwoods]

If Kpop stans put a fifth of the effort they put into bot-streaming all 12 versions of the new Jungkook or BTS or Blackpink etc. song into something productive we would've cured cancer by now

[@clairdeloona]

@@LynnHermioneif you think this still then you haven’t spent time in the kpop community lol. for a big group, hundreds of thousands people will preorder an album before hearing a single song off of it and people will buy albums just to collect cards that come with them, or meet and greet tickets. people will stream songs they personally don’t like as long as their favorite artist released it. they will go against their own personal opinion just to defend it as well.

[@riahlexington]

As a K-pop Stan, that stuff infuriates me, however the industry encourages it with music show voting.

[@ruzelrulez]

That’s why I love watching Ajay (Ajay Deluxe)’s reactions. She just say what she felt about the music she listened and say whether she likes it or not at that very moment. She dances, she vibes, she pauses, she laughs, everything she does while listening to music.

[@thehufflepuffhermione]

I also love Caitlin Marie Reacts for that same reason

[@JackToTheA1]

OMG i love her!!!

[@yserov8719]

Now this is a 7.2/10 video

[@p1nh3dlarry72]

I like rating scores because they're usually used to supplement the review that someone gives and puts it into perspective with what else they think or say. When you follow someone's opinion for a while, you can get a stronger feel for how they feel about stuff. I personally use them for the same reason, giving a further catalogue for my thoughts on stuff. Maybe it's different for other people, but I like them, it's a helpful metric that I'd rather have then not have, even if that means that other people will obsess over them.

[@MicTheSnare]

I absolutely get where you're coming from! As something that complements a review, a score is fine by me.

[@TheKeeperofChaos]

I agree completely. And with all due respect, Mic, but this kind of "scores are unnecessary" discourse always comes across a bit as needlessly vulnerable. The idea that the numbers others use and give *must* have an impact. I think it's a matter of "it has as much power as we give it". Plus, a lot of people use discrediting numbers as a subtle way to discredit or attack credits, something I've seen an increase of recently in an Era where people seem to think positive feedback should be all that matters. Idk, feel free to disagree. I think scores are fine and should be kept. If anything, they are merely a symptom of the problem with debate and criticism in the age of social media. That's a people problem, not something getting rid of or discrediting ratings would improve.

[@RobClouds]

@@TheKeeperofChaos The problem with saying "it has as much power as we give it" is that the whole reason the argument was brought up is because of issues with the overall large scale discussion of music online and saying that "it has as much power as we give it" doesn't fix anything. It implies that the problem is with us and we should change, but you can't ask a huge collective group of people to change. The people who are discussing music online taken as a collective unit will never change so in order to change the discussion, you have to change what's being discussed and that would be the way reviews are done.

[@AugustRx]

It's the exact opposite for me but for the same reasons

[@wilsonchan5711]

I feel like the ratings are fine to some degree, I use them to give me some ideas of how other people felt about it. Obviously it's not a perfect review but it does allow for a me to find new music and at the end of the day, if I liked the music I liked it, if not, it is what it is.

[@InvaderLER]

ive mostly been using RYM for cataloging and discovering new niche tastes, but i do add my scores to stuff bc having different opinions and showing others how much i can like stuff is fun and engaging. it may be maddening on other platforms like twitter and tiktok but something like RYM or AOTY is the go-to platform about music opinions shared by everyone. also more fun dunking and funny stuff can happen there, like seeing the most insane review on pig destroyer’s terrifyer, or when gunna’s drip or drown 2 had Chinese Folk Music as a genre tag for a lil bit. i dont know if i ever would want to get rid of something like numbered scores but something like a tag to give a TLDR on albums doesnt sound that heinous

[@treyxo_]

I stopped ratings albums out of 10 and whenever someone asks for my thoughts on an album, I just say it’s meh, good, love it, amazing, etc. It just feels a lot more genuine than just saying “I think it’s a 5/10”. I’m glad that others like you feel the same way!

[@DumbIdeaPresentedStupidly]

I think it is better and more interesting to rate albums against an artist other work or their genre that they are working in. Which is why I really like discog deep dive this channel dose. But it stands as better points of refrence than the grade that people use the number rating as

[@xbenci]

I mean... you can still do both? unless someone asks me to give it a vote then I'll never tell someone an album is number X

[@nochannelmusician769]

@@xbenciexactly. I do use RYM but it doesn’t mean I’ll tell someone they should listen to Pink Moon because it’s a 10. If something is a 8,9,10 it’s because they mean a lot to me and I would have a lot more to say about it than its rating

[@rileyschmedeman652]

This kind of stuff is the exact reason objectivity is created in music. One of my least favorite things is when people create a difference between “favorite” and “best”, when in reality the “best” is your “favorite”. People just need to feel validated. Rating sites and a lot of similar discourse creates an energy that makes everyone feel like they need to have certain opinion, when really none of it matters. I use rating sites as a great tool for discovering music and cataloging, as the fella said in the beginning of the video. So I might be a hypocrite, but really do agree that less of an emphasis needs to be put on numbers and more on words, as it creates so much toxic objectivity.

[@OatesInQuotes]

The auto-pan shaker bit killed me. I know what they are capable of 😲😨

[@SpectrumPulse]

A wild spectrum pulse was spotted. He ran away!

[@nolestrono]

I’d say Professor Skye is exactly what you described when talking about the good kind of review. He just talks about a piece of music with his perspective and helps you see it in a new light, it’s awesome.

[@thearcheriskind]

You've really hit the nail on the head regarding why ratings make music discussion so painful for people who don't want it to be a sporting competition. It goes a long way to explaining it for me, anyways, because I, for one, hate the obsession with sports and competitions because it might start from a place of wanting to support your favorite artist or team and see them succeed but it often turns into a fight with people who disagree with you and those conversations are never fun especially when you come out the "loser" (the one who less people agreed with) because it can isolate you from the music that made you want to get into these discussions in the first place.

[@karicherrycola]

Aight I give up, who is Rayman supposed to represent at 0:32? Or is Rayman himself a well known music critic and I'm just not aware of his work. What did Rayman think about Midnights

[@MicTheSnare]

I was trying to represent Rate Your Music in a cute way (RaYMan). He's a great guitarist, check out his solo work

[@katieg2449]

As someone who has never been involved in music discourse I love how you compare it to sports bc ppl in sports circles also use numbers in different ways to say which players/teams are Better Actually when really there are so many different metrics you can use that it just wraps around to being subjective. its beautiful how humans create new ways to annoy one another

[@bp2159]

For me personally I really enjoy giving numerical and written reviews for music, I have a meticulous and through process that I’ve developed, and it’s kinda cathartic for me since I have OCD, assigning albums or songs a numerical rating and ranking them etc, helps me calm that need for order

[@matthewbanzer7674]

I tend to not go into an album expecting to rate it. But I have my own little rating score. I don’t usually think it’s a big deal for reviewers to do it, but I do understand some points you make. That being said i don’t want to get to a point where people are too scared to put a number on a review bc they don’t want backlash

[@beth5627]

Another Michael "The Snare" Snare classic, banger sentence after banger sentence, 10/10

[@ah-sh9dw]

Ratings are just a quick way to communicate our feelings that makes it easy to get a feel for the general consensus. Sometimes you don't have the time to skim 50 different reviews to get a feel for how a song was received. It's a useful system and I feel like people putting too much weight on it is more of a personal problem than an issue with the system itself

[@LynnHermione]

Or maybe listen and make your own mind? You need others to tell you if something is good?

[@isaiahromero9861]

Exactly. This argument just seems so pretentious to me, like it's no one's fault but your own if you take someone else's opinion on art THAT seriously. It has the same energy as when people say we should "abolish genres" lol, I feel like it's just a superiority complex thing

[@txkyoaes5743]

@@LynnHermione Obviously you can just consume any form of media on your own but reviews are great because there's millions of albums on the internet and they help to narrow down your options and find a starting point with hearing something new. Seeing someone elses perspective on an album can open your mind to certain details you couldn't possibly understand through your own experiences (especially when it comes to older music like funk/punk which may seem simple and very inexplicit given whats common in music now, or a genre like metal which can be hard to understand the appeal it has without someone telling you why they like it themselves).

[@ah-sh9dw]

@@LynnHermione reviews/ratings are for finding bands, not deciding whether they're good or not.

[@ah-sh9dw]

@@txkyoaes5743 that second half is so true. I love reading positive reviews on bands I don't like, I might not enjoy listening to them but reviews let me understand what other people get out of it and appreciate the bands value

[@avian972]

Mic makes video with Taylor in the thumbnail, I click. That simple

[@yofuman]

You have such a great sense for timing and also for providing your opinion without sounding condescending or preachy

[@Jacob004]

I like giving ratings to songs and albums as a way to add on to my personal thoughts I already have on the music. I agree that the score isn’t the most important thing, but I think it is necessary in acting as a summation of personal opinion

[@jamescruz8678]

I found out about Model/Actriz because someone in the comments of a review for their album _Dogsbody_ said it was a dance pop album but with the dark and distorted delivery of _You Won't Get What You Want_ from Daughters. I immediately thought it was a cool and novel idea and turns out I'm into that sort of thing. Similar thing for _Sunbather_ and _ULTRAPOP_ and bam now I want more aggressive pop albums. Maybe summaries of what albums sound like would be a decent middle ground.

[@bgmchrisc]

I agree, but also disagree. As a critic myself, I don't use any sort of rating, for most of the reasons you pointed out. It does change the way we think, probably for the better. As a listener, I do appreciate ratings. Seeing one can make it more likely I read a review of an album I've never heard about than simply seeing a long block of text. Ratings can lead to new discoveries I wouldn't have had the patience to discover otherwise. And, or course, there are also critics I've pretty much written off for almost never giving a less than stellar grade.

[@xXMachineGunPhillyXx]

I’m being utterly serious, and genuine, when I say that I love the approach for music you’ve just outlined, and agree that the ones in place feel as if they are there to gatekeep and/or attack music of a certain type. I think that this needs to change. …And I’m genuinely sad to say that I think a large segment of the active music listening audience would lose their attachment to a lot of music if they weren’t using it to make themselves feel better than, or even flat out *superior* to, other listeners.

[@professorskye]

Great video and an important service. Between this and ear protection you are using your platform super well.

[@WiloPolis03]

Well said professor. Also first

[@cowmark67]

I said the same thing when Jon from ARTV posted a video on this topic a while back that I agree that numerical ratings aren't useful in music discussion and criticism but that they are still useful in helping me discover new music. I do like seeing a rating number, no matter how arbitrary it is, on a review just so that I get an easy idea of if I should listen to this music right away or if I can wait on it. My determining if I want to check out the record at all is going to be based on what the person actually says sans rating but just how quickly I get to it is helped by having a rating.

[@Wuffskers]

one thing that does make me feel weird when I've gotten into the music rating side of things is I disproportionately give 7s or higher, while some people have much more even distributions. It makes me wonder if I'm being too easy, or am I just really easy to please or something. I realized though, that if I don't like something, I stop listening to it, I usually check out the most popular or highly regarded tracks on an album first, and if they don't grab me it doesn't mean I'll never get around to listening to the album, but it does mean the album gets low priority, and if I absolutely hated what I heard I'm probably not gonna bother at all. I can't relate to sitting there listening for 45 minutes to an hour to something I hate.

[@DTFauxClassic]

I've always felt a good middle ground is in having a list of Pros and Cons, or reasons why a reader/viewer might like or dislike something. It gives more info than numbers and stars, while still being short and sweet for those who want to get to the point.

[@DurradonXylles]

From what I've seen, and this applies to all forms of media not just music I should add: number/letter/star/thumbs/ranking/etc ratings exist as an easy metric for one person to express their opinion, personal or professional, to another who wants the TL;DR or quick summary of a review or assessment. It's a matter of convenience for those who value their time and/or money, and may not want to take too many chances on what they decide to check out. I have personally, rarely seen the rating be taken on its own, though, and usually its aided by knowing _who_ gave the score alongside what their review's ending summary said (often with a 1-2 sentence blurb next to the score). Some people also look at said scores or general reception to see what previous works they want to check out, often as a matter of curiosity if the work in question had some infamy, controversy, changes in general consensus due to ever changing trends, or simply more recent reassessment of said works. The major problem, how I see it, is that people like art, but they wish to experience art on their own terms. As such, they ultimately like things they might be interested in as organized, structured, and categorized as possible when they search them out, and scores/ratings/rankings are an easy and simple way for people to start looking; while not exactly bad on its own, it becomes a problem because art and expression is very often NOT simple, easy, organized, structured, or categorized, especially once you get away from anything mainstream or highly looked at by established names, outlets, and imprints. As obvious as it sounds, the issue boils down to the commodification, commercial or social, of creative works and our experiences with them against other such creative works and experiences. I doubt this issue with ratings will ever truly go away, another KZbinr named Kyle Kallgren tackled a very similar issue with film discourse last summer (August 2022, for those reading in the future) in the form of a 35-minute video thesis wrapped in a long joke dunking on Cinema Sins, and he also made a few similar points to yours, Mic. However, I think a way to start tackling the issue proper is to follow Tyler the Creator's example and just open up more conversations with friends, family, coworkers, and other like minded folks about what we like, why we like it, and how we first experienced it. The internet has proven now more than ever that word-of-mouth is still the most effective and powerful form of advertising and information sharing, and I think taking advantage of that by simply asking for a few recommendations of what to watch/listen/read/play/experience next from people you trust and respect, then opening up conversation from there, is always a good start on at least the personal level.

[@startrekmike]

I do generally agree that people tend not to take review scores on their own and that they also take into account who is giving the score but that isn't really better. Across my friend groups, I know some folks who are otherwise quite sharp but they really bought into the whole "reviews by people I like on the internet are more authentic by default" mindset and as such, have formed some very strong opinions about everything from music to movies just based on what their favorite outrage peddling reviewer/KZbinr/blogger says (usually to get clicks and audience engagement). Perhaps my larger point here is that convenience has a price and that price is getting higher and higher as we descend further and further into the engagement-driven internet hellscape.

[@simontalksmusic811]

Great video! I agree with a lot of the points you made, but I also find it fascinating to read/watch a review and see how the reviewer got to the rating at the end. I personally am a big fan of ratings for albums, but I wouldn't want to make it all about the rating.

[@hambaby931]

my main issue is people using sales to state that their music is better than other people's music because it's just not reliable. you don't know how many of those sales are different people or even if they enjoyed the album (tho that's less of an issue today since you can listen to albums on streaming services before you buy them). there's also the issue of people bulk buying albums or endlessly streaming their favs' music on loop to boost their metrics. it's just not a number that rly means anything for the quality of music

[@jonsmith1956]

I think it's simple. Giving ratings to music either for personal use or for music reviews is totally fine and actually helpful to the viewer. ARGUING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S RATINGS is what's fucking stupid

[@cbear620]

I can’t even comprehend the idea of giving a score to music, something that is SO subjective and personal to every one of us! I’ll hear a song and go “hey, thing good. I like” or “ehhhhh” and that’s it. Star reviews are meant for products or businesses that are supposed to work or provide us a valuable service-clearly objective things, rather than subjective. (Yeah, things can get murky here too but ideally it works if we use those reviews in good faith.) Comparing it to the book reviews I do for work as a children’s librarian: the kids I review books for would not benefit from star ratings. They just wanna hear about something cool they can pick up from the library. Even when I remember to use my Goodreads, I struggle to see the point of ratings. Unless a book is actively harmful or spreads misinformation, I don’t see the point of giving a low rating to something I didn’t enjoy, since I know it could be someone else’s favorite book. It’s just adding more noise to our already deafening world. I much prefer the route of “hey, I thought this thing was good because xyz. If you also like xyz, you should check it out! But if you like abc, you probably wouldn’t like this thing.” Much happier! At least, in my ideal world anyway 😊

[@sleepinbelle9627]

I use an intricate rating system where the score is made up of a combination of letters, arranged into words, which together can tell you exactly what I thought of an album

[@xboxgamer474246]

I’ve been on RYM for seven years and I gotta say: Your ratings should be yours and yours alone. Don’t worry about Bimmy and Timmy, find your crew and stick like glue.

[@w.n.e.d.a.t.n]

Your next ddd should be Lana del Rey

[@WiloPolis03]

I like news articles and KZbin channels that don't put the score in the description or at the top of the page, because it more or less forces the audience to actually hear out the critic's thoughts, which should come first and foremost

[@doney1981]

I 100% agree I don't like ratings at all, only tickles my fancy if it's a 10 yk

[@37taupwn]

words cannot convey how much I agree with this, I've felt this way for years!

[@JK-gm6kk]

Discovered sooooo much music through lastfm back in the day. Would find users with similar taste and download stuff that was high up on their charts and I was unfamiliar with.

[@thehearingaid]

Ditto this, now it's still used to catalog what I listen too but I don't engage with it like I did back in the day.

[@idimation5579]

Great video Mic! 6/10.

[@ElkBit]

I've started being conflicted about numerical ratings recently. I do have my own personal (and evolving) rating system for when I talk about music, but I don't really give them published scores. I mentally rattle off a number for most albums I have an opinion on (and am vocal over what albums are personal "10/10s"), but it doesn't convey why that album is a "10/10" in my eyes (ears?). I have to give massive respect to Mark at Spectrum Pulse for ditching scores. This may have come as a hit to his view counts, but if you want to hear his opinion on something you have to actually pay attention. That being said: scores are fun. I get excited whenever Fantano gets on his yellow flannel and rates an album an 8 or higher. As pretentious as Pitchfork can be, I do pay attention to what they rate Best New Music without reading much of the review. Maybe that's just my caveman brain liking numbers to be associated with albums. One possible solution to de-prioritizing (or getting rid of) numerical scores is short-form reviews ala TikTok or KZbin Shorts. You can give your opinion while keeping your review shorter than three minutes long. Your Quick Review Basheroo videos were a good example of this! In an world with ever-decreasing attention spans, maybe TikTok-ifying reviews is the compromise we need? Great video, and great jokes, as always!

[@Warkipine]

I've been excited to see the rise of tier lists as a way of classifying things (I don't know if it's seen as much play in music communities, I don't go here). I think they get at the fuzzy boundaries that we parse as "genre", "form", what have you - a lot better than a numerical score which carries a lot of "objectivity baggage". So I could articulate, for example, that an S-tier thing is something I would consider a favourite, while an A-tier thing is something I very much appreciate but doesn't have the same "spark" that makes a fave. I could use scores of 10 and 9 in the same way (and a lot of people do! it's fascinating to see how people break down the 10-point scale to get at the fuzzy categories, not to mention the sensual nuance of the decimal), but it still implies a ranking on a mathematically parseable order (is a 4 twice as good as a 2?), where a tier list is allowed to be strictly ordinal (or even nominal, for the more abstracted tier formulations). I'm a big cate gorizing head so I think about scoring/ranking/rating/sorting and its implications a lot - thanks for prompting this conversation!

[@prayeddanny]

WE MAKING IT OUT OF THE FUTURE WITH THIS ONE

[@rockcriedout7679]

I love that you made this video! The act of SHARING music is fundamental to my very existence. I am very proud of my incredibly eclectic taste in music, built over nearly 4 decades of living and listening. I think of that John Cusack movie about mixtapes and how the creation of the perfect mixtape is an expression of how you feel about the person you're giving it to, what you see in them and what you hope they will see in you But back to ratings. I think ratings will never go away, because of our capitalist society which values profits that are measured by numbers. In my view, we should just use number ratings as a shortcut to understand what THE MAJORITY thinks about a song, in a system where people vote their ratings and an overall opinion number is calculated. Similar to how we look at upvotes on comments on Reddit, to see what everyone else thinks about something. Because we will usually include that dimension in the formulation of our own opinion, we can't not do that once we see it! So let's try to emphasise the connection that music brings when we discourse on it. We can chuckle at the ratings geeks when they do their number analysis thing at us. I was interested to learn about Rolling Stone; I guess it's already happening.

[@isaiahromero9861]

That's such a good point. I usually look at rym scores just to see how different/similar my opinions are from the majority of the site, it's just useful information to have and it's not hurting anyone imo

[@frogfan449]

Ratings are really bad as a summary of opinions but average rating can be a fine statistic (when among others) to sort by when searching for music like on RYM. It's a fine idea to sort by music that is the most generally well liked even though it can give a shallow perspective and be unreliable. It's really only a consumer's fault if they blindly judge things on scores

[@joanwaters6410]

I love music, through and through. It's pulled me through many tough times and given me so many experience in my life. I have always been poking around trying to find more music because it brings me joy. I started looking at music critics and while some of it helped me find gems, some times those numbers turned me away from a project that I normally would have enjoyed. I still seek out reviews because I love hearing how music makes others feel. What's important now is not letting these score rule how I feel about music.

[@someguycp]

This sounds obvious but the problem isn’t rating music on its own but when it becomes the central and only discussion of the music. The biggest example of this is Fantanos fanbase, or the “FANTANO GAVE MBDTF a 6/10?!?” over the discussion of his critiques of the album.

[@nochannelmusician769]

Even in that case people still talk about the specifics of his review. How he didn’t like the mix of some songs or how he didn’t like Nicki Minaj’s verse in Monster. The score is insulting to people but there’s plenty of actual discourse around the why

[@brokendoorknob3448]

I agree w this! I'm not as much of a music aficionado, but I feel this way about film ratings. I often feel like people use ratings in order to avoid actually talking assessing the film or what/why they thought about it in any real sense. Plus, a 3/5 can mean wildly different things to people. It's just not a good way to engage in art, imo. takes life out of it.

[@gaaholic]

CJ the X's video about Subjectivity and Art has some GREAT deconstruction of the idea of ratings, anyone who likes this discussion go check it out. I think that ratings can be a good place to get started with a conversation, it's a good way to gut check how you feel about something and then use as a springboard for interrogating okay but WHY do I feel that way, what about that makes it a ??/10, what's the qualitative meat behind the quantitative number I'm using to represent my feeling, BUT as Mic argues - most people stop at the rating. It's not often used to start the discussion, it's used as the WHOLE discussion, and then we just get entrenched into whose wrong and whose right about the number instead of actually engaging with each others thoughts, perspectives, and ideas.

[@jacksonmarlin6340]

Great video and is getting me to think a lot. For me personally I feel torn both ways. On one hand I’ve found it fun to listen to an album, write a small review, and then give it a rating all mostly for myself. It’s interesting to look back and see what my ratings were and are. But I agree that on the other hand sometimes things can get out of hand and I’ve even found myself on the verge of stopping my music journey because I was afraid I “wasn’t doing it right”. I’ve found some of my favorite music that means a lot to me simply because Fantano rated it well. But I also fear maybe I’ve been missing out on music because I pay too much attention to his rating. So I don’t know but it’s a great conversation.

[@firstpersonplural]

Scores are fun and force critics to be clear about it they actually like or dislike a thing rather than waffling around and not making any actual points (read a new Yorker film review to see what I mean the) Scores are bad when they are the only thing people pay attention to, rather than the reasoning that led to them. Scores are also bad if you don't use the whole scale (5 is average, and so 5 should be the most common score. If it isn't, you're exceptionally lucky, or your review system is broken)

[@Foxmosis_]

Great video! I’ve been feeling this for awhile now. Several years ago some friends and I wanted to start a music blog never took off but one point of debate between us was not using numbers for the review. It was a 2-to-1 so if that website has ever taken off there would be no numbers. However since no one really had a strong idea for the website it never happened. Oh well! The only time I use numbers now is when I try to break down every song off an album, take the numbers to get a percentage, then every album of an artist, thus getting a percentage of how much I like that artist. Which is a fun exercise to do for myself but I think if people started discussing music with me showing their data sheets I would lose my mind.

[@KLegyyn]

To get rid of ratings would force people to either read or come up with their own decisions. . My album process is listening to it straight through, then each song individually on repeat until I understand or get the feel for the song, give it a rating, and extend the listening time more if I like it. . I rate it as a whole and how each song connects, but each rating is private to me. . So, I believe its necessary for ratings as a starting point for people getting into a subject, and hope that they'll develop their own palette thus making their own ratings. . The spiral continues once people start publishing their ratings or opinions, my biggest issue is when people don't grow out of the box or use numerical values as the be-all-end-all statements to prove a point. . It all depends on who should really be given that challenge. . .

[@fairyeater]

personally, i use numbers as scores for albums (on rym, specifically) because i know my friends will see them and they serve as the “inciting point” for a conversation about the music. i never ever EVER have had a conversation about music, be that online or in public, where i mention the score i gave an album (i.e. “eh that album is a 6” or “dude that album is a 7 not a 10”)

[@safetymatches8873]

Theres a distinction you need to make between the questions "how do you feel about this" and "why do you feel that way". Not every single conversation about music is gonna be super deep and thoughtful. Or otherwise, they dont start deep and thoughtful. The number score is a simple way of quantifying your feelings in a short way because sometimes i don't need someone to go into a 30 minute dialogue of all the emotions they felt or short comings they noticed. Sometimes just saying "yeah it was a little boring, 5/10" is all you need to say. The number+knowledge of the number givers taste= you have a pretty shallow but good idea of the album or whatever it might be.

[@crunchysoupp]

I use ratings because I don't always have the luxury of simply having time to listen to music. (Especially if the album is long) so it's nice to see the general consensus on an album through a number, you know? With my schedule it kinda feels like I just wasted my time if I listen to a bad album. (Especially if it was long)

[@AnyOtherCityInTheWorld]

I don't usually rate music personally or publicly, but when I'm listening to new artists or bands I find that just taking a quick look at what albums have the most/highest ratings on RYM give me a good idea of where to start. It's pretty much the same as when you recommend which albums to start with in your DDDs. A lot of RYM reviews are also just nice stories about how or why the music connects (or doesn't) with the reviewer because of where they were in their lives when they listened to it, which enrich my experiences listening to the albums. I agree with the larger point though, keep up the good work :)

[@michael-luce]

I recently took a class on music journalism/criticism and we had an entire day dedicated to the score/no score debate. I think scores would be a lot more useful if we could make a way for them to represent personal taste like you mentioned. Then you could used those ratings as a sort of 'badge' to help communicate your tastes and promote discussion. Tierlists are ok at this, but I feel like there's another system that would be even better

[@Alexander6266]

Love your videos man. I don't always 100% agree with you, but your points are always well explained, while keeping the video humorous and entertaining

[@bananabread9876]

Sites like rym can be useful if you’re getting into a new genre. You can see what album or artist in a genre are the highest rated, and find smaller artists from there. I wouldn’t have found artists like “Silent Whale Becomes A° Dream” if weren’t for “Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven” being one of the highest rated albums on rym. Seeing albums like “I Didn't Mean To Haunt You” or “93696” being so highly rated exposed me to new genres i would never have found otherwise.

[@Laizorb]

I find it quite disingenuous to try to make the RYM charts into some gospel truth, or to pretend that RYM treats it as such, when everyone understands it's a group of aggregated scores from users using an algorithm (which you can also heavily edit yourself), not an objective appraisal. Sure there's a lot of discussion about the charts and what is or isn't bolded, but why wouldn't there be? We want the albums we love to receive the recognition from the public that we think they deserve. A lot of people seem stuck in the past, in a time when RYM was indeed a very closed-minded, rock-ist type of site that heavily rejected pop and the mainstream. That has changed significantly, and their userbase has become increasingly welcoming of different genres and artists. You can explore and learn about so many genres in different points in time. You can seek out recommendations in the forums. I have been following some users' recommendations on Detroit Techno, House, and Trance as I walk down the history of EDM and rave culture. The other day, I played with the charts, ended up taking an interest in Catalan Folk Music, and thanks to some users who took the time to rate releases in the genre, I found Arianna Savall's "Bella Terra", an absolutely gorgeous record. It wouldn't have been possible without the few people who took the time to rate it and catalogue it. There's bad apples like in every other place on the Internet, but my RYM experience is almost entirely positive, and fuels my curiosity for discovering music, old or new. Wonderful site.

[@IsaacPrinTheNerd]

​@@Laizorb I got into RYM recently, and it has helped me keep track of who I could listen to and everything they've put out. The genre lists and especially the descriptor lists helped me find artists like Vylet Pony and Clarence Clairity that I've grown to admire. I'm not objective in my ratings, but I still rate albums based on how much I connected with it. - I connected with every song and the entire experience: 10/10 - I didn't connect with it all and felt more like a waste of time: 0/10 But those numbers are for future reference to remind me which albums I really enjoyed and which to avoid. Even consensus doesn't dissuade me, like the Tones and I album from 2021. People kept saying it was a 0-1/10, but I took the plunge and while I didn't like it that much, I saw the potential it had. Gave it a 3/10, just to be like "Not the worst thing, could definitely improve, keep an eye out." For other music recommendations, I highly recommend Allmusic for artist influences and contemporaries, and Every Noise at Once for a genre fix.

[@l0nlym1lk17]

This video is incredibly informative and I do have to thank Mic the Snare for opening my mind to this, because when I do think about it, the numerical rating of music is much more limiting and less informative about the contents of an album. I was instantly reminded of how for a while I was obsessed with Fantano giving machine girls "U-Void Synthesizer" a 6 out of ten, but never actually stopped to acknowledge the genuine criticisms given towards it, which in hindsight do make a lot of sense. With the anecdote aside, this video has opened my mind and changed the way I think about music reviews and how damaging it's numerical rating systems can be.

[@Tenadarii]

This video put into words one of the reasons I feel like I enjoy your videos so much - I like to hear about music, and opinions on music. Back before the spotify days, I had a music player that a buddy and I designed a plugin for to hijack the ratings field, but not to allow a number to be set. A song started with no rating. If you listened to it, it would gain rating, if you skipped it it would lose rating (depending on how far in it was skipped). The system allowed for a dynamic playlist where I could tell it "give me 30% music with no score that I have never heard, 10% music in my top 20, 10% music that has a score from 50-70, etc. You could toggle on things like genre matching or "mood" or whatnot as well. I miss the days before spotify, but it was a pain to acquire music and store it digitally ...though it also wasn't as easy to discover similar music/artists. Anyways, I like your stuff.

[@bananajack1113]

Loved the video! I'm also amazed that psychonauts was on the best video games list! THATS MY FAVORITE GAME and yk it feels like no one talks about it as much as it deserves and the amazing story that went into making it

[@EyesForLies1]

Great video, I had the same feeling for some time now. You brought your arguments perfectly across

[@dylansauter8780]

i truly love all content you make, thank you for all the effort you put in!

[@javiercortes814]

I believe that people can construct rankings that represent their preferences. In this sense, a numerical score is just a way to represent said rankings. The problem with including these numbers in music reviews is that they heavily distract from the analysis of the music itself. For example, when you discuss an album which Melon just reviewed, the conversation usually boils down to "the Melon gave it a decent 6", instead of "Melon said that the production lacked personality". And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the problem with ratings: they monopolize the discussion around art, distracting from the art itself.

[@nochannelmusician769]

Music analysis is important but the numerical rating is the little now on top that ties together what the reviewer thinks and feels about the album. It’s kinda like a summary

[@nochannelmusician769]

Getting rid of a number rating would NOT fix the problems in music discourse.

[@justinalquist7842]

While I get the argument/thought process for getting rid of numerical scores, I personally like them just because there's that part of my brain that likes to categorize things. I see the number, I get it filed away mentally, although that does kind of already give me an impression of the music before I've even had a chance to listen, which can color the experience.

[@theboulderboulded5776]

Rating music Numerically has never really bothered me personally. But that’s also because I’m a massive nerd and already tend to read/watch the full reviews for most albums I’m interested in. I also like using Album of the Year as opposed to RYM, cause instead of a five star metric it’s based on a 0-100 rating scale. And it allows me to be a lot more specific with my revews

[@aaronforpie]

You bringing up that /mu/ essentials picture flashbanged me with hours of memories of lurking on /mu/ realizing that everyone there had the wrong opinion

[@NovemberOnion]

I just genuinely love the community it creates, I don’t need to know a number but I do get genuinely excited to see what my favorite reviewers have to say and in turn rate my favorite and even my own music. I think to remove those numbers you remove some of the community and you’ll cut off maybe even more than the scores already do. Just what I think tho, great video :)

[@djneon8859]

It's funny how he released it the day of Barbenheimer and Barbie’s soundtrack got a 5.2 and I'm glad he's talking about this. You can't give a various artist album list a single score bc each artist has their own creative sense.

[@psquare1374]

For me the main reason why I use scores (and i presume most people) is simply because its substantially easier to communicate your thoughts on something than writing a review. You kinda touched on this in the Path of least resistance segment about how it's easier for audiences to digest a rating than a full review. The same applies to expressing an opinion on something. Saying something is good or a 7/10 is much more efficient at communicating your thoughts and feelings on a record than writing a review that could take hours, days or even weeks to write. Is it better? No, not at all, but it's easier and, at the end of the day, gets the point across.

[@jermainereyem7635]

The best reviews of Media are just as often a reflection of the reviewer as a person as what they're reviewing. So they qualify as an Artform in of themselves. I do think it would require a big shift in how reviews, specifically online reviews are received. Saying that an album or movie touched you because it conjures up feelings of going through a break up or moving away from your hometown can be really beautiful, but it's an admission that art is completely subjective. That's not a bad thing at all! But I can see a lot of people dismissing reviews like that because they can't relate to the reviewer. Thoughtful vid!

[@demonssinglosongs]

as someone who struggles to describe how music makes me feel with words, using my personal rating system as a means of explaining it can give me a really comfortable foundation to then go on to explain what i think of something. i get why people would disagree but its just part of how my brain works. i will say, a music magazine like the wire which i absolutely love doesn't use numeric ratings and i think the reviews do feel more fulfilling to read as a result - it makes it feel more like a recommendation than a review, and that's one of the best things i think a review can be. it's the difference between someone like fantano (whose content outside of his reviews i do actually enjoy) and someone like deep cuts, who makes me want to go and listen to the music he talks about.

[@sowjmay8286]

Great video. Keep it up. Personally this video put my thoughts perfectly. I never disagreed with someone giving a personal "here's how I feel" kind of number rating, but the minute someone like, Pitchfork does that I get annoyed because they are giving the idea that there's an objective rating. It's why I hate when someone uses Pitchfork as an argument of why an album is bad and it just ruins the discussion.

[@sowjmay8286]

I think an example would be like throwing away an artists discography because pitchfork gave them a bad review, which I did, for a band that has now become one of my favourites which is Coldplay. Often times the idea of an objective review makes you just throw the idea of watching something away and just agreeing with that score without even trying it. Sometimes if you do listen to it you just subconciously always agree with the score and tailor what you say to it.

[@salaufer]

Hey, it's me, that one idiot drop of water trying to climb up the rock

[@RobClouds]

This is probably my favorite video on this topic because of how reasonable it is. I personally despise numeric ratings and try to avoid them completely, but I think it's important to keep the discussion on the side of convincing people that don't agree to agree rather than patronizing people that don't agree to try to force them to agree which never works.

[@Missjunebugfreak]

A recent example of my issues with music scores is when Pitchfork reviewed the new PJ Harvey album and gave it a 7.9. Now that isn't a bad score but it's just odd to be that hyperspecific in the rating which is basically an 8. Sometimes it feels certain popular publications such as Pitchfork love to act elitist with their album scores as a way to make fans have discourse about them. And the focus becomes less about the actual content of the review but moreso the score. And the fact that it unfortunately also bleeds into online music discussion is even more annoying.

[@KrisTheNinth]

i’ve literally been thinking about this for the last year or so! I’ve been spending a lot of time on goodreads and letterboxd logging all the books and movies i’ve been reading/watching, and i HATE the expectation of star ratings. I feel like there is such a gulf between capturing whether i think they’re “good” or capturing my emotional response to them. Some of my favourite movies are objectively not particularly well made or written but I LOVED watching them, while there have been “classics” that either I actively disliked or just couldn’t focus my attention on. I’ve found that writing even a short one or two sentence review about what stuck with me from my books and movies has been way more satisfying than trying to fit how i felt into a 5 star score. It’s so weird as well that there are things that i’ve ostensibly rated “the same” but i feel wildly different about! I get why having a simple number score makes reviewing more streamlined and consumable, but i definitely feel all the missing shades of nuance when trying to communicate how i feel about these books/movies/music, so i imagine that’s the same for the people doing reviews for big websites too.

[@quetzal7432]

For me personally, I like using music rating both to order personal ranking lists (that I also make for fun) and to tie a bow on a listen. For me, if the album listen mattered enough for me to form *an opinion on the album*, I’ll rate it to acknowledge that. But besides the tens place number in a rating of mine, you’ll need to go deeper to find my actual opinion. For example, I have Reputation and Love Goes around the same 50ish/50 rating, but one is due to conflicting opinions on tracks all throughout the album, and the other is due to a constant stream of meh throughout the album. Not all rating systems are equipped to handle those fine details, and as a result, a review (or honestly even a two sentence summary blurb) is so much more useful.

[@alexanderroman2063]

Late to this video party in particular, but I just want to say that I finally subscribed my ass because I very much enjoy your opinions - and I agree. Funny numbers to rate music is absolutely ridiculous. For example - I was a true 90's kid growing up and never really cared about Radiohead. Your Discog video on them, which I clicked on because I had seen your overviews of 90s/2000s/2010s music and liked *those* a lot - is *THE* **REASON** I gave Radiohead another shot. Now between my partner and myself, I think we almost have every album (CDs, baby) and visit a song or two at least once a day. I have grown to love the more intimate opinions, the why's, the stories, the how to discoveries behind music and have discovered much more since - I love that, even if I might not entirely vibe with the songs, I can connect to them in a different way. It's facinating and I have learned so much more that way, even with the music discoveries I've left behind.

[@Jelpie]

That sports comparison makes a lot of sense, especially when you see the stan community discussions. Great video ❤

[@gabehere]

To me, it's a simple matter of making communication more efficient. A long review with subjective opinions can often display conflicted feelings about a complext piece of work. A score helps trying that to a simpler way of communicating : I like this, I don't like this, I'm indifferently positive to this, this shifted my perception of what music can be, etc. That said, I think review scores can't and shouldn't be the be-all, end-all of music reviews. Like, if you watch a fantano video, watch the video, don't just go to the description for the score.

[@athinyamani9211]

I like ratings for the most part. I use them for myself to figure out how much I like something compared to other things. I use it for music and movies. It's also to keep track of what I watched/listened to. I like when other people use it because it's an easy way to start a debate (which I love doing (respectfully)). I just like talking about music so an easy way to talk about it is comparing review scores and seeing friend's reasons as to why they put that score. I do care more about the reason more than the actual score though.

[@reveluvly]

I really enjoy rankings but mostly as a way for me to gauge my own feelings about music, I really enjoy organizing stuff into categories and tiers. But I don’t let that system stop me from enjoying songs I wouldn’t give a “10/10” or from changing my mind in the future

[@bisexualmajima]

I like debating, some of us are just geared towards that and naturally find it fun and that it enriches art for us so I don't see why things should change because others can't hack it or because twitter finds it toxic or "pretentious" when, as it stands, we already have longform personal written reviews _and_ the numbers.

[@fim9048]

Super thought-provoking video. Loved the shoutout to SpectrumPulse, who has been one of my favourite music reviewers on KZbin for a long time (and honestly one of the only one I still watch nowadays). I personally really like the approach of being more interested in why people like certain music and what about their personal experience informs their love of that particular music. I also think that approach leaves more room for people whose opinions and tastes are traditionally left out or ridiculed by mainstream music criticism. (As an example of my own experiences colouring my relationship to music, I'm always thinking about my own journey as a teenager and young adult and how gender played into it. I do think, as a woman, I often was made to feel like I had to only have "good" music taste to prove I was serious about music. I couldn't admit to liking anything that might be "bad" or "cheesy" or a "guilty pleasure" for fear of proving all the other (male) music fans right...that I didn't really deserve to call myself a serious music fan. I put those in quotations because I don't believe in an objective distinction between those terms. Perhaps a concentrated effort to eliminate score *could've* helped diminish some of that feeling for me.)