Can We Please Stop With The Creepy Huge Age Gap Relationships in Comic Book Media?

#jesterbell #batman #comics #xmen
😁Patreon: patreon.com/us...
🐤Twitter: / theresacampagna
📺Instagram: / jester_bell
🎥Short Films: • The Quack 2: THE QUACK...

[@DrLynch2009]

To the people who say Magneto was de-aged to his mid 30+ by the time his romance with Rogue on the Savage Land... No, it didn't happend. Magneto was not de-aged, he was turned into a baby in Defenders #16 and brought back to adulthood at Uncanny #104. He even goes to the Holocaust memorial with Kitty at Uncanny #199 and none of the other Shoa survivors who recognized him mention he looked younger. There is a confusion about "Magneto deaging status" as a result of second hand account on shitty sites like Newsarama and CBR articles. No de-aging happened until the High Evolutionary restored Erik's powers after House of M at Uncanny #507.

[@Murdock13]

Good reference. Magneto was turned into a physical baby, and then physically restored to his prime, probably 30s. He still had all of his memories from before, so while his body is a younger version, he is still whatever age he would've been had he not been physically deaged. It is a little like "Twilight", with a century+ vampire dating a minor.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

​@@Murdock13 Or anyone having kids with a Clone trooper in star wars which all have advanced aging so they have 20 year biologically bodies despite being commissioned 10 years ago... Which has happened atlest twice by the one in the EU and one in canon. And I have only heard Generation tech go ew gross at it but only because he thinks expernce is everything or something. Dispite the fact kids brains are much different to adult ones and teroricly a clone trooper having only 10 years of life expernce dating a natrual Human with 20 years of experince is the same effect as someone who is 20 and someone who is 30... Like I'm 29 and my girlfrend of 4 years is 26 years old and I feel that expernce gap alot like she does not rember 9-11 I do but I never feel the age gap ever.

[@samdelongforgeeks]

Batman getting together with Batgirl is just like Jada Smith having an affair with one of her son's friends. ewww.

[@emma_luce_0623]

No no, it was an ✨ entanglement ✨ 🤣🙄🤚

[@samdelongforgeeks]

@@emma_luce_0623 it’s the same thing. Bruce Timm is a pervert lol

[@MVPMVE]

I will always hate Batman and Batgirl together, and I think one big reason for me is that the writers wrote Batman and Robin as Father and Son, but nowadays treat them more like rivals, especially once Dick becomes Nightwing, for no reason other than soap opera shenanigans that will be completely undone and disregarded by the next run.

[@ashesandposies]

When they made Robin, I believe he was meant to be more like a younger brother to Batman

[@jonbrewer297]

Barbara was originally a LOT older than Dick; she was actually introduced in the 1966 Batman show because season 3 Catwoman was played by Eartha Kitt, so, can't have her with Batman. This was only a couple years after Loving v. Virginia, after all, and the South was still hostile to interracial couples. She was aged down so they could date in the Timmverse, which was in retrospect a mistake.

[@jonbrewer297]

Oh, you're going to hate their relationship in the late 80s, before the Dick/Babs ship was even a thing. Dick had a whole complex over being replaced by Jason post-Crisis.

[@MVPMVE]

@@jonbrewer297 I'm aware of both of these storylines, and you're correct that I dislike both, though the jealousy over Jason is more "palatable" to me. If I have to accept a specific trope, I will take "jealous of the new baby/betrayed by replacement" over "gross father-son love triangle." I wish they _had_ kept Babs for Bruce. She's always felt like she was "given" to Dick instead of being a natural complement to him. I prefer Starfire for Dick, when they're not writing her as the bimbo rebound when he's on a break from Barbara anyway... 😒

[@jonbrewer297]

@@MVPMVE That's a good description of the problem. I would add that love triangles are the most overused trope.

[@MarioWendorf]

I never noticed Bruce Timm was like a kid pushing his toys together and saying "now kiss!"

[@jhonmaverick9963]

I first noticed he was like that the moment he pushed Harley and Ivy.

[@shannonmcelroy8454]

Like this pickle! See, they like each other! Mmmmmmwh! Mmmmmmwh! Mmmmmmmmmmmwwwhh!

[@samflood5631]

That good old meme.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Eh I mean he is a comicbook write like all of them I know feel like they are playing with action figures... I'm a military fiction writer and it feels like I am playing wargame with my self and my self's friends who are also myself... So yeah I get him though I disagree with his choices.

[@samflood5631]

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough You're a Military Fiction Writer? What stories have you written in the past?

[@JKtheSlacker]

I think you're right that one of the biggest issues is that these tend not to be relationships that make any sense, either from a background or a chemistry point of view.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

What does that have to do with age gaps though? Like shouldn't the title be "Stop writing coupled who don't work!"?

[@silverheart4049]

It's the self-insert aspect that makes it so egregious. If, say, Selina is depicted as 26 and Bruce as 34 and they have a romance, there's an organic feel to it and the chemistry is sincere because they are actual characters, not self-inserts. These, though, they're clearly self-inserts put in there for pervy reasons. I love BTAS Bruce but this one thing is so out of character for him; Babs normally isn't like any of the other women he was interested in (Andrea, Selina, Talia, even Diana, all a kind of femme fatale) and it's just so deeply cruel to Dick, his son.

[@RacingSnails64]

Exactly. All his other love interests are so much more mature. Barbara just fundamentally does not feel like Bruce's type. (She feels like Timm's type 🤭)

[@kitalalaris]

@@thehacker4012 Add to that, this is something that happens in real life without the whole thing being in comics. People act like it doesn't, but yeah, it does. Sure, you can think it's weird, hell I think it's weird, but people do this. Also she's missing the fact that it's initiated by Barbara Gordon and Bruce dodges it as much as he can in the beginning, which it usually is initiated by the woman in these situations. Not always, but usually. As for comics, well the DC comics have been a proper clustercluck for nearly two decades. This is why multiverses and AU's are so bad for story driven media, it doesn't go well.

[@jonbrewer297]

@@RacingSnails64 Babs served in Congress in the comics.

[@jonbrewer297]

@@kitalalaris The multiverse isn't bad per se. Getting rid of it caused more continuity flubs than it fixed. (See, for instance, Hawkman. Or Black Canary.)

[@xadalau9758]

​@@RacingSnails64Timm really seems to have a fixation on Batgirl at least staring from TNBA (though there are much earlier hints). There was a comics he did with Dini that later was adapted for the show (It was that Christmas episode), where there is a scene Barbara gets changed behind an object. Nothing sus about that, except that in the original he wanted to show It in pretty grapgic manner and have her do It in the middle of a running crowd.

[@StarvingArtist600]

The self insert character I hate the most of Paul from the current run of Amazing Spider-Man.

[@revolutionarydragon1123]

IDK if Paul is self inserted but a means to keep Peter and MJ separated by editorial

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@revolutionarydragon1123 Paul is the self insert of editorial then...

[@surfsidezawaz]

For me it's less the age gap and more the student/teacher relationship. I mean if it was the age gap thing just who on earth would it be acceptable for Wolverine to be with considering that most people are quite a lot younger than him and just about anyone else in the comics is a hell of a lot older than him.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Rembers me of Bill Clinten's impeachment is rembered today... Like people think he was impeachment becuase he was the Presdnt and she was not... Not the fact he lied about... Nore the fact he was married and cheated on his wife as president... Which if true then would any president dating anyone be ok like ever? Like the presdent is the most powerfull man on earth should be the exmeple all americain should follow... But yeah it happens all the time and most people think it's only gross in a school envoment... Like I teach my Girlfriendd stuff and she teachs me stuff so what is the issue?

[@darkwoods1954]

In real life I don't care about age gap relationships but certain ones in fiction just don't work. Batman banging one of his best friends daughter who is also his sons ex girlfriend is just awful. Rogue and Magneto don't gel at all and seems so random, they don't seem right together.

[@1D4ever]

🎯 I agree completely.

[@zeekmatthews680]

It more on how big gap to be honest

[@samflood5631]

At least there was a 3 year age difference between Gambit and Rogue.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

So what does that have to do with age gaps? Like if Batman Barbra were the same age would it change who you feel?

[@darkwoods1954]

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough No I think it's more that she was Dicks ex. Basically like Bruce banging his sons ex.

[@rodneylindsey849]

One of the funny things about this particular subject is how we give a pass to immortal & long lived characters: Thor, Hercules, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Wolverine, Namor Mystique, Ra’s Al Ghul, Vandal Savage , could be decades to centuries older then those they hook up with 🖖🏾

[@Murdock13]

Exactly. Like Bella and Edward in "Twilight".

[@Nairobin]

Bro why the fuck she getting with Magneto? What about Gambit?! This shit is sooooo fucking weird lol.

[@Enigmaticbeacon]

Read a comic book. This relationship is nothing new. It has happened in the comics

[@Nairobin]

@@Pinksugarcandy … Ok I guess. Still weird as hell even then.

[@Squeam9750]

​@@Enigmaticbeacon And it's still garbage

[@Nairobin]

@@Pinksugarcandy It’s not that. The whole idea of Magneto getting with Rouge is fucking strange no matter how you put it. Regardless of “set-up.”

[@sindelscat9336]

​@@Pinksugarcandy using the comic excuse doesn't make your argument good, there's no reason for them to be together, no chemistry, no relationship build up, so in reality it makes no sense.

[@NocandNC]

I don't mind controversial romance in fiction for the sake of exploring various themes but I definitely think there's a time and place for it. Don't really like creators taking what amounts to personal fanfiction and inserting it into large per-established franchises for example.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

That is extremely common... Like in star wars that is expected and the lone critique is people calling it fan service... Namely Jedi master Luke being in anything ever after Disney bought star wars... He was before then just an EU aka lisnced fan fiction to out it how Goerge Lucas would... And whenever Disney uses him people complain it's just so people would engage in the media... Which makes no sense as people have wanted him to be canon forever and half and have wanted his role in the squels undone so Jedi Master Luke would be the only Luke... So yeah persoanl faction is what all writing is you are just putting it on paper and if you have the liscnes then it's canon.

[@cluelessworld]

As someone who is the younger partner in their relationship I don't mind an age gap relationship. It has to be written well but if you have a certain relationship with someone there shouldn't be a romance. Batman and Batgirl is absolutely wrong. Firstly she is his friends daughter, you would think that's a line you can't cross. Secondly she was with Nightwing, why get between that. For Magneto and Rogue, why is she with the guy that tried to kill her as well as her friends. I never actually felt there is anything was anything tangible between the two. With Donna Troy I wouldn't have minded her with an older boyfriend. If she is an adult that's fine. I just feel most self-insert characters are so creepy and playout weird fantasies. Age gap relationships in media isn't bad but you actually need chemistry between both characters. It actually has to make sense that these characters go for older partners. Also don't do relationships like mentors, father/mother figures or anything that has a weird power imbalance to the relationship. It always comes off as creepy.

[@Punisher3-16]

I think the reason why the Batman/Batgirl relationship was being shielded from criticism before being included in The Killing Joke adaptation is because it was a part of the DCAU. The DCAU is deservedly held on a very high pedestal, but that unfortunately has the cost of its few hiccups being either ignored or "forgiven". As soon as Timm tried to make it mainstream, he got warranted backlash from the entirety of DC's fanbase.

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

Not a single person agreed with the batgirl and Batman in killing joke idk where you've been

[@Punisher3-16]

@@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259: That is why i said *BEFORE* The Killing Joke adaptation. When people saw it in that movie, they rightfully called it out for how out of place it was.

[@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259]

@@Punisher3-16 oh my bad I see now

[@jonbrewer297]

@@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259 Hell, I hated pairing her with Dick. Even in Mask of the Phantasm. I just wish people would understand the actual canon: Barbara was, in the early 90s, still closer to Bruce's age than to Dick's. You can even see her aging in Ostrander's Suicide Squad. Maybe Bruce Timm has mommy fantasies? Still creepy, but now it's creepy for a totally different reason.

[@jonbrewer297]

@@kaylemathewcomendador6964 See, this is not how Batman and Batgirl have ever been. (Well, most Batgirls. Yes, there's more than one. One has Commissioner Gordon for a father. The others hate their fathers.) This is Batman and Robin's relationship.

[@gothamthisisyouronlywarning]

Two names. Deathstroke and Terra.

[@denkerbosu3551]

Which is bizarre, at times Slade is shown as caring towards kids. I guess there's a rather early age where he stops considering them as such?

[@jemmellpyron2527]

​@@denkerbosu3551depends on the version. Deathstroke in young Justice for example, his relationship with Terra seems arguably the most decent one compared to the others. He actually is her mentor trying to help her and Terra isn't just stuck following the Judas Contract plotline.

[@xadalau9758]

WTF?! I didn't know that! No child/parent relationship is sacred in comics?

[@emma_luce_0623]

P-people ship them? 😟

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@xadalau9758 Um Deathstroke in TT 03 tries to groms litterly the whole team terra was on that team... Also since when has Deathstroke ever had kids or wards? Like most of time he is the loner cold merc.

[@DuskyPredator]

Here's hoping Rogue/Magneto is a misdirection, and there is some element that will let her be closer to Gambit.

[@Kerwarsh]

The age difference with Barbra and Bruce never bothered me, what bothered me was their relationship in connection with their history. Moreover, Bruce who has known Barabra since she was a child (and should probably see her more as a Neice or his own kid) was seemingly encouraging and indulging her behavior towards himself. It also just seemed really out of character for him. Also, I always thought Rogue was in her mid 20s.

[@emma_luce_0623]

And it's not like he just saw her a couple times when she was a kid and didn't til she was grown, they were very close. He saw her as a surrogate daughter. She's his best friend's DAUGHTER 😭

[@fennelwink]

Ugh, if that show is pushing anything but Rogue/Gambit, I'm out. That was my favorite part of the 90's show! And yes some things need to stay in the comics. The comics did all kinds of stupid things over the years. Let's not rehash things that never should have seen the light of day to start with.

[@mahmudmurad4655]

Actually they did fairly well compared to what they do right now that is absolutlely garbage.

[@dragonsword8129]

When I saw that Batman Beyond scene with Barbara as a kid, the stuff they were talking about went over my head (which I'm thankful for). But now that I understand what was happening, I can definitely agree with you.

[@acemarvel1564]

These writers where "those" middle schooler fanfic writers I swear 💀💀💀

[@ultraviolet540]

Oh yea, we all knew at least one.

[@dallasgrey4247]

Magneto and Rogue fails on so many levels. Again, it’s not only the age gap. It’s their personalities and history.

[@ideasaboutthings8857]

of all teh insane technologies in xmen.. rogue never thought to just keep one of those mutant depowering collars for bedroom play? c’mon. the biggest non issue ever. they all got these high tech spandex suit, what beast cant wipe up a full body condom suit lol the rogue thing and her self created sadness is the most contrived thing ever.

[@MrSupertallblackman]

It should be pointed out that, that Barbara scene in the Mystery of the Batwoman is completely pointless and adds nothing to the plot of the movie.

[@darthroden]

I think Bruce Timm's obsession with Batman and Batgirl has something to do with the supposed sexual tension that happened in the 3rd season of the 60s Batman TV series. I heard somewhere that Yvonne Craig and Adam West were really flirty behind the scenes and maybe Timm picked up on that and imposed his own ship. Sorta a reverse of how some weird ass SW fans ship Rey and Ben/Kylo and wanted the actual actors to be a couple IRL. Bruce Timm is kinda weird in the first place.

[@chunkysaurus785]

I don’t have a problem with age gap relationships but when it’s downright creepy like Batman and Batgirl especially considering Bruce probably met her when she was a small child Or in the case of Rouge and Magneto it literally makes no sense for the characters Age gaps are fine as long as they make sense and aren’t creepy

[@louiswalusimbi8006]

That Donna Troy one used to drive me crazy just cause that guy was an obvious self insert

[@thisbarbieisahugefckingmess]

Seriously, and even without knowing that's what Terry Long is, readers would still be mad that a literal Amazon like Donna would date and eventually marry a skeezy doofus like him!

[@stoneocean0065]

In retrospect I was like yeah why does he look so familiar, mind you I'm 24 and I swear I'd seen his face somewhere before then learned he was a self insert and everything began to click

[@jonbrewer297]

With Donna Troy, you have guy with a better love interest (Kyle), guy with a better love interest (Roy), guy with a better love interest (Wally), guy who shouldn't have a love interest (Jason), true platonic love (They hinted at Dick in the 70s?), lol who and when? (Garth), and Gary Stu. Her love life is really messed up.

[@louiswalusimbi8006]

@@jonbrewer297 As far as I’m concerned she don’t have a love interest tbh

[@samflood5631]

@@jonbrewer297Well a lot of DC and Marvel super heroes have a lot of messed up relationships.

[@tonyg9775]

I still haven't gotten over the fact that One More Day is trash

[@Tyler_W]

You and everyone who's read a Spider-Man comic prior to 2008...

[@thoriasunlimited4053]

Well said. I totally agree. The Rogue/Magneto thing has always been gross and super awkward. I hate that they're doing it in the show.

[@matane2465]

Doesn't Teen Titans also establish that Slade and Terra were a thing?

[@jonbrewer297]

Now that was actual CSA.

[@marthademovimaus5140]

Yeah, but although she's a teen, he gets the redemption arc and she's the nasty dirty girl forever!

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Yeah so much so the final episode was about beast boy letting go of his relationship with Terra just becuase Slad told him to "for no reason".

[@realjesterbell]

Well, there goes the farm

[@christopherthibeault7502]

It's not that pervasive--they're actually rare--but we lean in just the same. Your first two cases are essentially authors' wishful thinking. You can have that, but temper the end product with healthy realism. Have it backfire spectacularly the wider the gap gets. If a couple of wide age gap gets together, you must still show in the story how hard it is to maintain the relationship and otherwise show it breaking down. To outright dodge complications, simply and consciously adhere to the "half-plus-seven yardstick", where the elder's age is halved and tacks on seven years. If the younger dips below, then no sell. If she's 37 and he's 24, then yes if you round up and no if you don't (37/2+7=25.5). And yes, I believe it works both ways. Babs Gordon intrigues me. I started reading her Silver Age appearances in earnest and thus envision her as late 20's early 30's courtesy of her time as the wheelchair-bound Oracle. She served in Congress. Before the Animated Series, Babs' fascination with Batman was only from wanting in on the vigilantism angle. She cosplayed as him (a female version) for a charity gala to impress her father, but never arrived there thanks to running into Killer Moth's stooges. Batman intervened and, from the word "Go", his attitude towards her was patronizing, even adversarial at times. Barbara became obsessed with proving herself throughout her introduction to the comics. Her first actual nod towards long-term romance was Jason Bard, who was her age. Dick Grayson was actually five years her junior as he began college around the time she was introduced--just before the early seventies. Jean-Paul Valley was working on his Master's and suspiciously resembles Bruce Timm (and also a character from Frank Miller's Ronin, which I believe is the chief source of inspiration). He's about Babs' age, but is probably younger. What if Babs had a thing for little lamb? www.regain.us/advice/attraction/is-it-love-why-would-a-younger-man-be-attracted-to-an-older-woman/ I say this because I've always been fascinated at the idea of romancing an older but well-kept lady. Suppose Jean-Paul and Barbara Gordon get together. It might appeal to Jean-Paul, since he likely lacked having a strong motherly presence in his life growing up. Babs might appreciate someone who follows her lead like a lost child--a need to play teacher to everyone for self-affirmation. It wouldn't be perfect, nor should it be, for their politics and modus operandi constantly inspire arguments--not enough to break up since such heat often spices a relationship. Naively idealistic Babs would poke holes at the blissfully stoic Jean-Paul, whose own brand of social ineptitude prevents him from knowing if she's actually flirting or not. Of course, this case is not a wide age gap, but people might find it creepy or merely counterproductive since his bullets aren't blanks but the bulls-eye is getting further and further away. Shouldn't he be going after someone his age or less? And why is the Christmas Cake Spinster Superheroine pursuing a romance? There would be something of a stigma for either of them to have a relationship, let alone together. Yet, these possibilities have to be explored if you want a "Wide Age Gap Romance" to work and be accepted for what it should be--integral to a plot--rather than what it's derided as--an author's ironic fetish.

[@DanielBMaximoff]

Dick Grayson ended up with Starfire and Barbara Gordon (Arkham) ended up with Tim Drake, lol

[@A_YouTube_Commenter]

It's like Cyclops cheating on Jean Grey with Madame Web. NOT the hot Dakota Johnson version, the grandma from the animated series.

[@christopherthibeault7502]

@@DanielBMaximoff She robbin' a really gay cradle now, isn't she?

[@doro626]

I love how you calmly and in a balanced manner give your views.

[@yurikendal4868]

I didn't know much of this and I figured batman and bat girl we're just a lapse in judgement

[@DanielBMaximoff]

The reverse Twilight. Mystique and Iceman.

[@renardofranklin608]

I always wondered does this also apply to characters who are immortal or physically can't age like wolverine. Also where are cases where it doesn't come off as creepy for you like this type of isn't unique to comics but also anime.

[@robchuk4136]

Good question. The wheels for my goal post are in the mail

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

I prefer Wolverine as a mentor figure like in Xmen Evolution. The whole love triangle thing with Jean Grey and Scott Summers is soap opera stupidity.

[@JawkneeJay]

In this age of acceptance of so many kinds of alternative lifestyle and relationship choices it seems very regressive to demonize age gap (when both parties are of legal age and consenting of course) couples.

[@kristofgriffin384]

I personally have no issue with age-gap relationships in fiction, so long as they feel organic. I'd be hypocrite if I said I was against them, considering the fact that I'm in my 20's, but I prefer older women in their 30's to 40's. The problem with relationships like Bruce x Barbra, or Rogue x Magneto, is that they feel more like self-inserts from the author. This is their way of "interacting" with the character their crushing on, and not care if it makes sense for either character or story. Rather than keeping it as their personal fanfiction, we have to be subjected to it.

[@low-keydrama1260]

Look. I’m fine with Batgirl having a crush on Batman. He’s handsome, intelligent, and genuinely wants to help people. HOWEVER, Batman should NEVER reciprocate or even entertain her crush. If anything, he should shut that down immediately after finding out she likes him. Meanwhile Batgirl should get over it and move on from. There are just so many factors as to why it’s wrong and Batman (mostly the writers) should know and respect why it’s wrong

[@nicolast62002]

Just cuz it happened in the comics does not justify adapting it Great vid 👏

[@RaidenNin]

Then don't watch comic adaptations that simple

[@RacingSnails64]

Ugh, imagining Timm realizing he can finally show Batman and Batgirl banging on-screen for the Killing Joke adaptation because it's rated R is so pathetic and disgusting... And that scene of Barbara and Terry is absolutely unreal. She coldly downplays her feelings for Dick and then brags about her (supposed) chemistry with Bruce. That's absolutely wild. It feels like nothing short of her being an utter self-insert mouthpiece. I do not buy that she actually feels that way *at all.* This is why you don't write horny ya'll lol. You can write smut on your own time but you *need* to get it out of your system before working on a big project. Everyone can tell it's self-insertion and your story will be sooo much stronger without it. 😂 As a casual X-Men fan, Rogue x Magneto sounds absolutely bizarre to me lol. I see absolutely no chemistry between them. She's young and fiery, he's old and a terrorist. That'd be like pairing up Princess Leia and Emperor Palpatine. There's just no way 😂

[@KaiserUnique]

That’s the part that really annoys me cuz I really feel like if these people wanna write smut on their own time imma look the other way. Like I’m not mad at them for being horny and finding characters attractive. I’m mad at them for letting it derail the entire story and integrity of the characters despite it adding absolutely nothing to the plot. Like get it out of your system before you write fr. This is not the genre you were contracted to make.

[@remixsolo]

The one relationship that always made me feel disturbed was Terra and Deathstroke.

[@marthademovimaus5140]

Yeah, plus he gets the redemption arc, not her!

[@iruoghenesamuel2762]

I like how some people here are defending magneto and rogue saying stuff like "well actually it's because magneto can touch her and gambit cant" as if the show didn't just establish power restrainers all through out the show imma just go to sleep now😊😊😅

[@edgelordleon5859]

For all the people who use the phrase "it was in the comics," I provide you with this. Some things simply don't translate that well, or frankly, shouldn't be translated at all when adapted to other mediums. The ending to Watchman (the comic) involved a giant squid, for example.

[@dragonsword8129]

My go-to response for that mindset is that "Spider-man selling his marriage to a demon happened in the comics, but that doesn't mean it was a good idea."

[@edgelordleon5859]

@@dragonsword8129 Excellent point.

[@SidheKnight]

True. I'm so glad the MCU didn't try to adapt Hank Pym's past issues with spousal abuse into the big screen. That would've been both extremely uncomfortable _and_ pointless from a narrative point of view.

[@jonbrewer297]

And Linkara complained about the absence of said giant squid.

[@yurikendal4868]

A lot of things in comics should remain there. Dr strange speaks old English in the comics. How would that work on screen

[@Laxhoop]

Some people wrote problematic things and are perfectly normal people outside of it. Some people the most wholesome thing ever and touch minors. My personal opinion is that I don’t care what a person writes about, but if they’re VERY persistent about a controversial subject outside of their writing, then it’s fair to raise an eyebrow. And also check their hard drive.

[@SidheKnight]

_Some people [do/write] the most wholesome thing ever and touch minors_ Jimmy Saville, Bill Cosby... to name a few.

[@jk6919]

I don't mind some age gaps. I like stories where Babs is a little older than Dick, or Steph is older than Tim. I like Huntress with an older character. For me, it's whether the age gap works for the character. I don't like Flatline being more than a year or two older than Damian (more and its creepy). The gaps work when it's in keeping with the character, but as you say, don't work when the writers breaks the character to make the relationship work.

[@KaiserShounen]

I'm sorry but I legit need to ask; Who was defending Bruce x Barbara? Like, were there really that many people defending them being a thing? It feels like after that comic about Barbs miscarriage happened and the Killing Joke movie came out, everyone kinda agreed that that was shit. Hell even BEFORE that happened, I always thought people kinda was weirded out by this. Sorry but I just need proof that these people are real lol.

[@xadalau9758]

Probably are. I was never that into comics and their fandoms, but before the killing Joke movie came out people who talked about Batman online didn't seem to take that too seriously. I think they movie being really bad was something that fortunately helped to taint the crappy ship It featured.

[@atticstattic]

If you don't go into a relationship prepared to do CPR, it's not a real relationship 😂

[@spinjitzumasterfalcon]

Yeah, the Batman x Batgirl thing was really weird and I hated it.

[@AndyDandyMandy]

One thing that comes to mind is Black Widow and Bruce Banner having a love interest storyline in Age Of Ultron that was clearly Joss Whedon using Banner as his self-insert character because he wanted to bang Scar Jo.

[@peterfrost377]

Well Kagome did end up with InuYasha.

[@randomgeekcrap]

Yeah but it's aang and katara

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

At least Kagome and Inuyasha are mentally the same age and Inuyasha physically looked the same age. Can't the same for Sesshomaru and Rin 🤢🤮

[@waifubreaks1572]

Kagome went back in time, that's different.

[@owenharrison761]

​@@Drums_of_Liberationanime/manga plays with different rules due to where it comes from and the target audience that reads those stories

[@marcogenovesi8570]

@@randomgeekcrap Aang was frozen for ages

[@alexukonu6592]

My opinion is that you’ve analysed it is right and I have no problem with people criticising self-inserts and huge age gaps, as well as the characters having no organic chemistry. Where I would draw the line though is that it shouldn’t be okay to say “I don’t like this thing, can writers stop showing it in their art?” Especially when the thing we don’t like/enjoy happens in real life and it makes just as little sense there. I have the same conclusion in both instances: I don’t like that but I have to accept that their people have decided it for themselves. Sorry I just hate hearing you can’t do this you can’t do that. IT MAKES ME RAGE

[@SidheKnight]

True. As much as I hate when creators make certain decisions (**cough** Star Wars Sequel Trrilogy **cough** Mass Effect 3 ending), I still hate when people tell them (nay, _demand_ ) what they are and aren't allowed to do. It's their creation, fans aren't entitled to demand jack shit. The may _ask_ for the author to reconsider their choices, but the author has no obligation to comply with that request. All we can do as fans is to (respectfully) voice our opinions and vote with our wallets. Choose what media we consider is worth our time and money, and not judge those who think differently. Art is subjective, after all. What I hate, others may love.

[@mr.x6313]

@@SidheKnightRight is right, and wrong is wrong. We ARE supposed to judge evil for what it is, and often evil worldviews worm their way into art.

[@dragonmaster1360]

@mr.x6313 You can write evil... without being evil or practicing evil. I've personally written about a character that wants to genocide all dragons in her world because a dragon took everything from her, only to realize later that she was wrong. Doesn't mean I'm evil, or that I want to genocide an entire species. Humans have this amazing thing call IMAGINATION where all sorts of CRAZY stuff can happen. Just because a person can imagine evil doesn't mean that person is evil.

[@SidheKnight]

@@mr.x6313 Nah, evil can be pretty fun. As long as it limits itself to fiction..

[@mr.x6313]

@@dragonmaster1360 We’ll ALL evil, honey. None of us is righteous. The Bible has been telling us that forever. Thankfully, there’s this guy called Jesus who offers us salvation if we choose to believe that He can save us from our evil.

[@anarchclown]

I have no problem with the age difference between Rogue and Magneto. It's the fact that there really was no set up and just generally uncalled for. No one asked for the pairing and that they just kept pushing it for a while when everyone pretty much loved the Gambit + Rogue combo was weird. The Batman+Batgirl thing is weird because of all the backstory. I mean the age difference isn't even more than number five or something in the list of things that make it creepy. The best friends daughter, the sons ex, the weird one sided fangirling, the complete lack of actual dating or courting. The only thing that comes across as somewhat authentic is that Barbara is a go getter who goes after what she wants. It's just kind of hard to fathom why she's doing it.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

To be fair the age gap, best friends daughter are only weird if it's both... Like I have an aunt and uncle who are devoiced never talk unless she needs him then don't takle still hate... But my uncle regurly comes over to talk to my grandpa who us his friend and father in law... So yeah if barba was batman;s age or older I could she Gorden letting it happen becuase his daughter is happy and may make bruce Nightwing 2.0... But yeah that has never happened like at all because Batman can't has his PTSD cured(Which is a thing just stupid hard to do.) he must brood all the time about his dead parents... Like 100% I feel after losing my Mom a few years ago that Batman would still be Batman if they died nonviolently not brood on it every second of everyday forver and ever...

[@Jason-cruel]

Rogue and magneto also was married with a child named Charles during the age of apocalypse story arc during the mid 90's I believe 1995 to be exact I didn't find that relationship a problem because if it's about age differences the how come no one is complaining about wonder woman or even wolverine for christ sakes lol

[@joseramos-kv4pk]

No, those are things from decades ago, when ageism wasn't a popular prejudice age gap it was a romantic trend. and age gap it was view as desirable until 2011-2012, this thing of age gap as creepy it is very recent.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

? Imean it's a memethat youngmen get with middle aged women now and that's in 2024..

[@rodneylindsey849]

You are correct that the Timm Verse Batman , Batgirl relationship is creepy & hated , but you are a little confused with the timeline as presented in Batman Beyond 2.0 ( or whatever it was) When Dick left the Dynamic Duo, to become his own hero ( Nightwing) & Barbara stayed with Bruce , at sometime after that event they began hooking up…which ended when Tim Drake was kidnapped and tortured by the Joker and Harley…Barbara quit being Batgirl & ended their sexual relationship…then Dick feeling guilty that he had not been there for Tim in his time of need , went to visit him in the hospital, and got in touch with Barbara to console her as well, they then started dating again , & fell in love leading to Dick wanting to propose marriage…however Barbara discovered she was pregnant , & upon learning how far into the pregnancy she was realized it could only be Bruce’s child …so she did not cheat on Dick at anytime they were a official couple …🖖🏾

[@cartoonking1789]

I do remember Magneto and Rouge being in the comics but man it was weird…

[@DavidSilva-mn4dz]

Same with John Byrne making Reed and Sue age gap bigger un marvel canon.

[@tobeecone9568]

Look what they did to my boy Gambit😔

[@chloeforman]

In the 70's Barbara Gordon served as a Member of Congress for a while.

[@kitalalaris]

Yeah I feel like all this is from a perspective of nu-comix. Older comics had characters all either older or younger depending on storyline, they were all over the place. Plus all the references to power imbalance being one of the biggest problems in the relationships in question is already hilarious to me XD It's not something to whine about, in fact having different power levels in relationships is unavoidable, no matter how much people pretend it isn't a thing in idealized lgbtq+ relationships, it is absolutely still a thing no matter the relationship and no matter the context or form. At the end of the day, it's fiction, which makes it even sillier.

[@JawkneeJay]

I’m just as put off by age appropriate relationships that come out of nowhere as I am ones with big age gaps involved. For my fellow Trekkers, Chakotay with 7 of 9 anyone?? I’m not gonna ‘scream’ at You about it or anything because Your opinion is just as valid as mine or anyone else’s but I’ve noticed a lot of hot takes that seem very ageist lately and they typically dont get much pushback as say criticizing an interracial or gay couple would receive. I’ve seen and known couples with pretty significant age gaps and was never ‘grossed out’ or put off by them being in a relationship in any way.

[@dugonman8360]

One reason why I hate Barb/Bruce is that, in the comics and in the animated show I know Bruce would never do that. Batman has a weird relationship with sex. All of his previous relationships all had a deep romantic core to them before the idea of sex would come up. This kinda makes sense when you remember how mentally scared Bruce is and he associates any relationship in the dynamic of his father and mother. (I've told people the reason why Batman refuses to kill the joker is because whenever he sees a dead body he sees his parents and there's no way in hell Bruce will see his father in the joker and Joe fixit in himself.) You are telling me Batman, the Batman I know about, would have a one night stand with the girl he thinks of as his daughter? No, that wouldn't happen.

[@ŁukaszK-c5u]

On the other hand, I'm tired with everything being generalized and then established as problematic. Age gap itself gets a lot of hate whether it's fiction or real people. Recently Henry Cavil fell victim of some baseless accusations just because of age difference. Sure, creepy self-insert fantasies should not enter the popular entertainment, but let's not frame it that "age-gap is wrong".

[@vetarlittorf1807]

I mean, people seem okay with characters like Wolverine, Wonder Woman and Silver Surfer having romantic relationships despite being older than anyone alive today. If the partner is past the age of consent, is it really a problem?

[@misseli1]

I think she's saying Batman & Batgirl's relationship is disturbing because he mentored her since she was a child. Therefore he should be more of a father figure to her.

[@axelwust9376]

They are physically the same age as always, plus, the mindset they show doesn't necessarily reflect the older age in comparison to their partners (Remember, there's a difference between the young adult mindset of finding a partner and older adult having a larger worldview and trying to leave something behind. Even worse, however, when they DONT have that worldview, despite looking older, something you can't apply to immortal or long lived characters, since we treat them as being in a suspended time period).

[@GraveyardMaiden]

Like immortal characters are kinda suspended from time, but like when it comes to the immortal X mortal ships, it really depends on what age the immortal is depicted as. Like it would be leagues beyond creepy if an immortal that's like physically in their 20s is dating a 13 yo or if 20 yo is dating an immortal that like forever a 9yo

[@mittag983]

Did they know the other people as children? No? Then it's fine. If they met em as a child, they are creepy.

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

@@mittag983 Sesshomaru and Rin to a T

[@DeadBoyHK1]

Personally, age gaps like that don’t bother me. If they are both adults, it’s not really a big deal. And I honestly see the Batman Batgirl relationship as something that actually happens a lot in real life. Many young adult women, love older men. Especially older men that they can rely on, they are comfortable to be around, and that they see as a protector. I don’t really see these as power fantasies, but rather something interesting to add to the story…regardless of the artist creating spicy art on the side lol.

[@mr.x6313]

@@nbkw48You’re talking about a slippery slope right there. Society doesn’t dictate what kinds of romance are moral or acceptable.

[@ThePrincessCH]

The creepy aspect has more to do with the fact that Bruce has known Barbara since she was a child.

[@mr.x6313]

@@ThePrincessCH So? Mr. Fantastic was in college when Invisible Girl was a child, and they’re an excellent couple. If it ain’t grooming, it ain’t wrong. People of vastly different ages and who have known each other for years are capable of catching feelings for one another.

[@mr.x6313]

@@nbkw48 I don’t know about you, but to me, the Bible seems to be pretty logically consistent in the face of changing morality. I prefer to base my beliefs on a book that has stood the test of time, lending credence to its claim as the Word of God.

[@mr.x6313]

@@nbkw48 *laughs in Old Testament*

[@CRSHOVRRIDE]

This just confirms to me the writers have no idea about the original show and say “97” is a continuation when it isn’t

[@Robalexe]

You haven't watched it then

[@CRSHOVRRIDE]

@@Robalexe you obviously can’t read.

[@Robalexe]

@@CRSHOVRRIDE They made a point of only hiring people who were fans of the original show. Btw you should read JesterBell's review of episode 3

[@CRSHOVRRIDE]

@@Robalexe again, you still can’t read. “This confirms to me the writers have no idea about the original show…”. You can keep trying, go ahead, you can do it

[@Robalexe]

@@CRSHOVRRIDE What I said literally disproves that statement, them being fans of the OG show means it's impossible to have no idea about it. But go on. You're the one who can't read. Come with an actual argument for how these fans don't know about the show they are fans of. Explain the "this" that confirmed to you otherwise, besides being butthurt that it's not a copy and paste job of the OG show

[@doro626]

I'm kind of old fashioned when it comes to hero coupling. Mostly I hate heroes having girlfriends/ wives, but when they get ONE, I can get behind it. iris West, Lois lane, Selene Kyle, Mary jane/ Gwen Stacey. Lets be honest, Bruce is not emotionally mature. I can see him one time making a mistake with Barbara and her latching onto it him and wanting it to be more, but Bruce out of shame never letting it go there.

[@TheHorrorMiserMontyG]

I know I didn't like the Batman/Batgirl 'romance' when I read the storyline in the DC 'New 52' universe. I certainly didn't like it all in animated version of 'The Killing Joke'. It seems that Bruce Timm has some type of fantasy about a young woman having a relationship with an older man. Which doesn't surprise me, giving some of the artwork he does with female characters, such as Harvey Quinn, Poison Ivy, and Catwoman.

[@jokerz7936]

I'm surprised you didn't mention Colossus and shadowcat he was of drinking age because he'd have beers with Logan and Kurt when he was dating a 14 year old Kitty Pryde.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

14? I thought she was older than that when they were dating?

[@daniellichtenstein7541]

I'm sorry you get so much flak for your thoughts. You've got good points to make which are very well thought out.

[@doro626]

I could be wrong, but I think the basis for their relationship is Age of Apocalypse. They were married and had (2?) kids. originally Xavier was in love with Jean but its a throw away line. Its not until Xmen Unlimited where they bring it back. Lets talk about Unlimited. Jean is 18 /19 and Logan has sex with her. Jester, I think you need to give a "talking to" Leo Dicaprio.

[@bennero446]

Hi, JesterBell. First, let me start by saying that I love your channel and agree with the vast majority of what you say here. However, I do not agree with everything you say, and this is one of them. I am not going to yell at you, however, just make a point in a cordial fashion. I always listen to you, and I like to think you listen to those who follow you, even if we may sometimes say things you may not want to hear. There are many people in this world, including me, who have a natural preference on a physical, emotional, and social level for much younger people of *legal adult age* (I am not talking about relationships that may be *illegal* here, so please acknowledge that). It is *not* a choice, and it does not make you a bad person nor is it indicative of negative intentions or character flaws. In fact, I think it's a very bad idea to try and date people you are not attracted to and cannot give them real romantic feelings or physical desire et al. simply to avoid shaming. And before you bring this up, the "cognitive development" issue claiming that younger people 18-early 20s (which I am talking about here) are less capable of making good or rational decisions compared to older adults has not only been heavily challenged by various research studies making it clear that brain development occurs differently in different individuals dependent on many factors not directly related to age (e.g., environmental), but also by objective observations of the many terrible decisions made by older adults, both in our personal lives and in the wider world around us. For instance, iis it younger people at BlackRock, Disney, or in the Democratic Party that are the main individuals pushing for DEI and all the other bad decisions that they never seem to learn from? Larry Fink, Bob Iger, and Joe Biden do not exactly look young to me, nor filled with worldly wisdom in any way. That said, calling such relationships "creepy" is utilizing a very subjective, emotionally-driven term that simply means what you are seeing is two things: 1) It's something outside your own personal tastes (which is fine), so you are unable and unwilling to view it outside of your own POV, and thus treating it as something fixed in objective reality; and, 2) It's likely a form of prejudice that is currently popular to express, something that is no longer the case with interracial or homosexual relationships. And since nature and politics alike abhor a void, something else always comes along to take the place of other things that are no longer on the "acceptable hit list." This is one reason, for instance, that you see many LGBTs joining in on this particular band wagon, another example of how many of them living today have forgotten what their predecessors endured. And they, of all people, should know that attraction is not a choice, and that choosing a legal partner based on what society expects according to your gender, race, ethnic background, age etc i you do not naturally roll that way is not going to result in happy relationships for either partner. If you knew me in person, and knew everything about me, I highly doubt you would think I was a bad person who makes choices with utterly selfish and negative intentions. I believe you would also know that I am totally sincere when I say that I find younger women to be awesome people on all levels, and that I find many of them (including you, I must say) to easily be my mental match, and I look up to them accordingly. You cannot regulate the legal adult dating market and expect people to choose their partners based on avoiding common "icks" that you may have. Using shaming tactics is not going to work, and all it does is make the lives of some decent people difficult and full of anxiety they do not need. That is likely the intention with many people, and I think it's short-sighted and wrong. As for putting this in fiction -- it's an acknowledgement of reality, nothing more. Just like putting gay people in books acknowledges reality. I concur that writers should not promote any type of legal relationship in accordance with their own tastes, but I think the opposite must also hold true: we should not demonize legal relationships in fiction according to what may be our own POV either. Some things simply are, and that is how they should be treated. Thank you for listening, and keep up the good work!

[@bennero446]

@@thehacker4012 "This is also weird considering that the last I checked there is high percentage of age-gap relationships within the LGBTQ community. So, you would think because of that fact alone they at the very least try to be more open minded." That's true, but ironically, that is likely the very reason so many of them with "age appropriate" preferences are pushing back so hard on those who do not fit into that mold. It's nothing new for one marginalized group to gain a large degree of acceptance, and then turn on another one to bolster the former's acceptance within mainstream society and to distract condemnation and shame from their own to the other. And yes, LGBTs are big on pointing out how attraction and romantic preferences are not a choice, but they willfully forget about that when condemning another preference. And so does everyone else. LGBTs have always been a factionalized community, not the united front that the woke/intersectionalist crowd tries to present them as. There has always been and remains tension between gays and bisexuals, and between cis-gendered gays and transexuals, and of course, between LGBTs and other marginalized preferences, such as age gap relationships. Too many people only want to view preferences that fit their own as "legit" rather than immoral or "creepy" (the currently popular buzzward for subjective dislike). And whether or not they will demonize a certain legal preference outside of their own is largely contingent upon how popular it is or isn't in the mainstream, and/or within one's own valued social circle. One thing everyone should learn from both past and recent history is that you cannot shame a naturally occurring preference out of existence. Nor can you successfully socially engineer it out of existence via societal pressures and stigmatization. All you can succeed in doing is getting people to lie about the truth, and that doesn't help anyone in the long one. "Thank for your saying this." Some people have to step up and say this. And thank you for stepping out and agreeing considering its lack of popularity. I understand that conventional "wisdom" isn't always wrong, but it often has been. "There is way too much same with age-gap relationships. Especially when it comes to older women/younger men. Whether some people want to admit it or not advocacy for age-gap relationships is a feminist issue." In my experience, I have seen much more condemnation directed at older men/younger women relationships, due to the belief by many on the Mainstream Left in particular that male sexuality is inherently predatory and that men are more likely to be abusive and controlling (this hardly reflects empirical reality! While it's objectively true that most women are not as physically strong as the average man, the less scrupulous among them can find other ways to exert physical control, such as manipulating other men into beating up a man who offended them). But modern fourth wave feminists are very hypocritical, as are all sections of "woke" mentality. They know the only way they can prevent women from entering relationships or making other decisions their orthodoxy does not approve of is to deny them their agency under the guise of "protecting" them. In fact, this Nanny State mentality is a common excuse given to deny any group of people their agency.

[@joelcarrillo7448]

I’m still trying to get over the fact that Morph and Bishop are part of the team. Morph left the team after he was resurrected from the dead and Bishop was sent back to his future in the Days of Future Past story arc. But I digress. Seems like the writers are not so much in tune with the animated series continuity. All they had to do was actually watch the animated series and poof…No Rogue/Magneto/Gambit love triangle. I see this possibly going into Melrose Place territory.

[@Robalexe]

They made a point to only get fans of the original show to work on this but ok

[@joelcarrillo7448]

@@Robalexe guess these fans forgot the memo that they were doing a continuation of the original animated series.

[@Vitaphone]

This is the first modern campus clap trap take I’ve seen on the channel. Young women are often attracted to older men… for a variety of reasons. Older men are often attracted to younger women… for a variety of reasons. If we aren’t talking about actual predatory scenarios or reasons… then saying it can’t occur in literature and media is just screeching. Just because a person isn’t attracted to people outside their age… doesn’t make it weird or creepy that others are … people being attracted to and engaging in relationships with older or younger people is nothing new and the impulse to do so is never going to disappear, pretending anything outside of that is a juvenile take on sexuality… and these kinds of takes will age like milk when we reach escape velocity on college campus views strangle hold on mainstream discussions. Agency and choice in adults comes with… agency and choice.

[@Datanimechick72]

A point I can really agree on, thank you

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

Doesn't mean it looks any less creepy. Yeah love is ultimately blind but people will always question why a 20 something is with an 80 something especially when the 80 something looks rich

[@Vitaphone]

@@Drums_of_Liberation gold digging isn’t the same discussion. Show me a 20 something with broke old man, now we are talking… but the phenomenon doesn’t seem to exist… and if it does, in this day of social media and people being able to share receipts… it would seem to be everywhere do to its salacious manor. However college age women and beyond dating men much older then them is super ubiquitous… always has been, and likely will continue even in this weird “agency is everything”, “accountability culture”… unless it’s an adult women making the choice… unless a man is involved and then the women in infantilized (ironically mostly by women) and holds no agency or accountability. Getting creeped out about two consenting adult sexual choices ultimately says more about the person assessing some thing that is average human behavior as “creepy”. I thought the 90’s put an end to Christian right prurient views… but it’s ironically come back in a big way from the other side of the isle.

[@JawkneeJay]

Best take on this topic 👍

[@silverheart4049]

JesterBell isn't calling out the age gap qua age gap, she's calling out the self-insert feel of it. Wonder Woman is how much older than Batman in most versions? No one has any issues with that pair's age gap because it feels natural to the characters, not like someone's private fantasy being put out in public, to hell with characterization. Magneto being the only one who can touch Rogue in X-men '97 is absolutely ripe for manipulation and, redemption arc or not, he's a master manipulator. I'm not even sure Rogue is attracted to him in any way except he can touch her and no one else can. That's a really bad thing.

[@Tusitala1967]

Batman and Batgirl is disgusting because of the egregious and blatant break in character required to make it happen. It's a huge breach of trust on so many levels, and I cannot believe Bruce would allow it to happen. I don't really mind Magneto and Rogue as a fling. One of my female friends loves the relationship and thinks Mags is hot. I don't get it, but I don't find it especially weird either. JesterBell is just rabid about this topic though, and it's pretty hilarious. "I'm not making this video for people who disagree with me. I'm making it for people who agree with me." Noice. Ultimately I can accept that you just thinking they have no chemistry is the most valid reason to decry M + R, but what else makes it ick? Is it the life experience disparity? Is it the idea of Magneto's shriveled, wrinkly old flesh touching the supple young skin of your favorite X-man? Is it because you want her with Gambit and nothing should disrupt *your* fantasy? All of the above? You mentioned a HUGE power disparity... does Rogue not have more power than Gambit?

[@dragonmaster1360]

Honestly, I bet it's because she doesn't like the idea of older men being with younger women. But we'll likely never get the answer to that question.

[@ashleydortch2445]

I never like magneto and rogue getting together

[@MademoiselleRed1390]

I didn't know about any history between Magneto and Rogue before so I was really disappointed by what happened in the epsiode, especially as someone who loves Gambit and his relationship with Rogue. But thanks to what you mentioned in your video about the first 2 episodes I'm now a bit more hopeful. See, when I watched the first episode which showed Rogue and Gambit on such a good light I did wonder what would be in store for them in terms of story this season because otherwise as wholesome as it is, if they are not given something to do it could turn dull. So your insight made me able to look at the whole Magneto thing as a way to give them a conflic for the season which hopefully will eventually still play in their favour over Magneto. In terms of characters tho, I can see what you mean about not being the best for Rogue. Not only cause it DOES feel forced on her and out of character but also because so far her subplot is kinda a love triangle so far. So we'll have to wait and see how this goes.

[@Rose_Bride]

I _knew_ they would end up ruining this series. 😑 I was honestly looking forward to more Gambit/Rogue stories. ☹️

[@realjesterbell]

They are doing rogue/gambit, they're just adding drama with a love triangle

[@flowerbloom5782]

Noooo I hate love triangles. It’s just cheap way to get drama and god we had perfect chemistry with rogue and gambit with awesome character motives. But no. We have to sit through this drama. Remember Jean Scott, and Logan love triangle. How annoying that was?

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@realjesterbell There choice and what is wrong with that if done well?

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

​@@flowerbloom5782 You know the vast mority of people believe if they can't die there are no stakes right? Yet IRL in the US atleast dying is never a concern to most people and most Americans die of old age... Like for exemple the remaining Americain WW2 veterns seem to all have fought though out the war and beyond... So yeah if someone made a movie about them would making the sole stake them living make any sense to do? Like a writing device is just a writing device it can never be cheap just written poorly...

[@samflood5631]

10:34-I do hope that either Harley Quinn or Kite Man will add Terry Long in either show as a means of mocking him. Example 1: in Harley Quinn season 5, Terry Long has a bit of a cameo of him creeping on one of the teenage super heroes, maybe Super Girl, Spoiler, Orphan or Wonder Girl. And both Harley Quinn, Ivy and Cat Woman beat him up and send him to the police for almost statutory rape. Example 2: probably in Season 2 or 3, Kite Man and Golden Glider breaks up for the sake of adding in stupid and pointless drama. Lisa falls in love with Terry Long, who is actually a telepath and has a crush on her since she was in high school. But during the season 2 or 3 finale, Kite Man does this whole wedding crashers cliche of ruining a wedding and telling Golden Glider he’s sorry. Golden Glider admits she was at fault for what she did in either Seasons 2 or 3. And then she references Magneto and Rogue’s creepy romance in X-Men 97 and how she’s cheating on Kite Man because of her own insecurities. And so both Chuck and Lisa get back together, kill Terry Long and have make up sex.

[@afcansf5996]

Though I agree Batman & Batgirl to my opinion never were a thing; and father getting it on with his son' s gf wouldnt be the smartest thing one can do. But you really got to define "creepy" better, im sorry but thats one of these terms these days that has been completely hollowed out. Not to mention its often used by most women when whatever happened (not talking serious illegal things) was done by a guy who they for what ever reason didnt liked. Thats how at least this came across to me, especially since these kind of things are pretty common in female orientated entertainment as well. And than of course it isnt considered to be creepy. The relationship didnt do anything for me, but I didnt had an issue with it either. And messed up relationships do happen in the real worst. Since you didnt shared that other work you referred, I cant make more of this than seing it as a "taste dispute".

[@kavinskysmith4094]

wait when did this happen with batman and batgirl, and the way I always figured they got to batman beyond was their was a breaking point between the group where they just didnt want to do it anymore and wanted to move on with their lives, and bruce didnt, hence the sad state we find him in, in the first episode as you would think the natural evolution of what bruce would be doing is detective agency's, and other people doing what he did in gotham elsewhere, kinda like the justice league, maybe outfitted by bruce himself with batman type stuff to help not that they broke up because they banged. as that's the thing with the batman idea, eventually either he gets worn out and cant do it anymore, he franchises, or he gets caught and cant do it anymore because he has become the people he was trying to stop also batgirl is Gordon's Daughter, that's literally like banging your colleague's daughter behind his back, like, isnt there already a line crossed by bringing her on that should have been the breaking point, which I remember them exploring in one of the episodes where Gordon full on hunts batman over her, only for it not to be as some sort of a dream sequence like shouldnt he have called it quits and had her break it off at that point, only for her to go rogue and do her own thing once that point dawned on him as this is some Archer kinda crap, and really F'ing weird, like if your going to do this, atleast make it funny like batgirl hooks up with catwoman because of how ignored she was with bruce and turn that into a thing, like nevermind gotham city sirens, have it be batgirl, harley, and catwoman doing their own thing to get back at Mr J and batman himself in there own way lol like you think this town is big enough for the both of us, try 5 of us lol also no sweet baby inc crap, like dump that in the trash and have it stick to the comics,

[@starfalchion4404]

I think the main problem of most of these relationships is not as much the age gap but moreso the generational gap and type of relationship the characters have with each other. The relationships for basically all the ones talked about in this video are mostly between a mentor and a student, all of them containing the mentor being an older man and the student to be a young woman. Those relationships live very close to a fine line of grooming that it often crosses for most people. Along with that, another aspect of why I don’t like Bruce with Barbara or Rogue with Magnus, and that is that I just don’t see any chemistry that should any romantic feelings. Barbara usually just doesn’t seem like Bruce’s type, and Bruce is already someone that usually tries to stay in control of any sexual urges he may have. With Rogue and Erik, I could see them bonding over being former enemies of the X-Men and the subject of gaining people’s trust, but I just don’t see it as something that has to be romantic. Sure, apparently Magneto can actually touch her but……is that a good reason to have any attraction towards him? Especially since he’s the colleague of her now DECEASED mentor. That’s the same reason Batman and Batgirl don’t work. The lack of chemistry does admittedly go back to the mentor/student dynamic. So the age gap is definitely a problem, but I also see them as just bad pairings from a character standpoint in the same vain I didn’t like Bruce Banner and Natasha Romanoff in the MCU. I didn’t think they had chemistry, it came out of nowhere, and it felt like it degraded Natasha’s character in Age of Ultron.

[@Mclucasrv]

The batman and batgirl thing yeah I never liked either from all the DCAU is the only thing that never fit for me.

[@PsiCorps85]

What about the relationship of Isaac Clarke & Ellie Langford of Dead Space 2 & 3? Of which the wiki for the franchise removed Ellie's birthyear and they're probably going to make her character look haggish as they did for Nicole once there's a remake of the next games, but I know it was ending in '83, 2483, since my ex-wife was born in 1983 and that number is easy for me to remember (while I was born in 1985). Isaac was born in 2461, but they both meet as adults in the 26th century, though I can't seem to find the years of the events of Titan station on the wiki either now.

[@zacknor1522]

When come about comics,the most worst thing I ever witness is when come about romance.Mostly all character's involve in situation of random, triangle,cheating,can't stay with one person of love, open relationship and many type of negativity.When you say about not all in the comics need to be adopted is right.Mostly gross situation happen in comics.And that why mostly I just watching a animated series and movies because it not show so much romance but when it come one's,it the most memorable romance moments in my opinion.

[@Harleyxjokerforever]

I remembered being weird out how The New Teen Titans comics tried to put Terry at fault for her Deathstroke "relationship" also about never liked Donna and Terry (a 19 year old married a middle age divorced dad) ew.

[@Princep555]

I mean traditionally Men married down and women married up. As long as she’s an adult it’s typically how things have worked in the past. Whether they admit it or not most women look for that father figure in men.

[@gloriathomas3245]

Not always. Remember, William Shakespeare's wife was significantly older than him which was quite out of the ordinary for the times

[@dragonmaster1360]

The exception proves the rules. Shakespeare's wife was an outlier. It bucked tradition, proving the tradition to be credible.

[@twincast2005]

When there was a large(ish) age gap, yes, but common folk have always usually been close in age, and in those cases the bride being slightly older was for whatever reason actually a bit more common than the opposite.

[@silly3759]

I'm an old guy and have been creeped out by this in movies for years. I'm no puritan, but it's a forced reality that screws up men and women's ability to interact with each other in a way that aligns with nature.

[@Tyler_W]

Absolutely. Enough of the thinly veiled self insert fetish shipping. I saw this with full knowledge of the fact I'm probably about to kick a beehive with this, but I think this issue of out of character self insert shipping goes beyond just straight age gap relationships, though. The new trend has been making characters gay who had no basis for such a change. I'm not saying gay characters shouldn't exist or that there aren't good characters whose sexuality isn't an organic part of the whole character, but over the last decade, whenever a formerly straight character becomes gay, that is literally all they are now. Red Robin/Tim Drake, Ice-Man/Bobby Drake, Superboy/Jon Kent (who was aged up from a child not long before it happened to make it even worse), and Green Lantern/Alan Scott coming immediately to mind now. Consistent pre-existing characterization practically disappears because they can only be used to talk about their sexuality and either hook up with self inserts or to be the self insert for whoever is writing their shipping fan fiction into canon. A ton of the Krakoa era X-Men stuff just felt like thinly veiled fetish fiction with characters getting thrown into inorganic and sometimes wildly out of pocket relationships. Sometimes the actual superheroing felt like a chore so they could get back to their slice of life fan fic where every other character who used to be very straight is now in a gay, bi, poly, pan, or kink relationship.

[@doro626]

YUP. I was one of the ones that said make a video. I agree with the points she made and disagree with the points she made but she makes good, well thought out points and this is a good discussion. I collected comics between 1988- maybe 2000, and read stuff occasionally after that.

[@hauntingmachine]

In original X men cartoon Rouge left Gambit for her teenage love Cody :(

[@jonbrewer297]

Some third rails need to be pissed on, so... in the 70s, Batgirl was in Congress. Robin simped for her, but, well, 25+17=20 to life, no? By the way, check out the 1966 Batman show Barbara was created for. Yvonne regularly flirted with Adam. Dick Grayson love interests from the 60s to today, 1960s: Bette Kane, several women we never see on-panel. 1970s: They actually hinted at him with Wonder Girl and the Joker's Daughter here, but mostly he had girlfriends like Lori Elton and Terri Bergstrom, characters who basically existed in college. 1980s: Starfire. 1990s: I remember a fake wedding? And for a bit, his landlady? He didn't start dating Barbara in the comics (outside of that one Elseworld which lampshades their age difference, you know, Thrillkiller) until 1999. So, yeah, now, it's still gross, but for other reasons. Barbara's entire characterization in the DCAU version of The Killing Joke isn't that of an experienced vigilante, but that of a fangirl and dabbler. She's basically an adult female Tim Drake. (Then, I never understood what purpose Robin served in the DCAU.) Terry Long always seemed like he'd try to arrange a threesome with Starfire. Yeah, he was smarmy.

[@biguy617]

I just said the exact same thing. Vee Infuso said the same thing. Batgirl and Batman is creepy.

[@myfootballjesus]

they need to put more sex and romance in the newer MOVIES about batman , the problem with the latest batman movie was there was Heart or Joy or humor at all, just depressing darkness at least there was Some in the Nolan films

[@JamesBartlett-u2o]

I watched the original Batman animated series but never saw any of the Adventures of episodes. So when they pulled that stunt and completely ruined the Killing Joke, I had no idea they had actually set up this nonsense. Personally, I always thought that Batman would be too obsessed with his war on crime to pursue a relationship with anyone. No matter how you try to spin it Bruce has issues and it wouldn’t work or be healthy for anyone

[@MegaLordSamuel]

I just wish they would actually explore the relationship, but interestingly. Like if they actually said how weird it was for them to be attracted to each other and decide not to be together because it is a weird thing to do. People don't make smart decisions all the time and it would be an intriguing thing to have these scandalous scenarios play out. Not that I want to defame a character though, if they can't do it without being just a creepy display of power or worse a self insert. Just don't do it. A taboo subject is fine to discuss as long as the discussion is the main objective not the implication of it being alright. If that makes sense.

[@jasonknight8581]

The whole Batman / Batgirl thing was super creepy. Not just due to the age difference, but also as he was in a mentor / teacher role and teachers should never date students. Ever. The danger of grooming is too real. As for Rogue and Magneto, it's definitely a case of a self insert as those characters have no reason to be together as they have next to nothing in common. This kind of thing is more frequent than one would think, with Norman Osborne / Gwen Stacy being a thing as well as Green Lantern Hal Jordan and Arisia coming to mind. A case could might be even made for Clara and the 12th Doctor in Doctor Who. Old writers need to stop using younger female characters for the selfish purpose of wish fulfillment.

[@williamrushton61]

I consider myself a huge batman fan and I had no idea about the batman x batgirl relationship being a thing until i saw the killing joke and I immediately hated it. Good on you to call it out because it is creepy and i want xmen 97 to succeed and not have this creepy shit in it.

[@SidheKnight]

While I'm no fan of Magneto x Rogue (she belongs with Gambit!!), I don't find their relationship all that creepy. They're both adults. And I mean fully adults, not "second year at college" adults. The same cannot be said of Batman x Batgirl (and that's without mentioning the fact that he used to be her mentor and sort of a father figure to her). Still, Rogue and Magneto don't belong together. They have no chemistry, barely any things in common other than being mutants fighting for mutantkind, and in the 90's show Rogue's villain past is significantly underplayed, so it doesn't make sense to see them together unless you have read the comics from like 50 years ago, and even then it was probably a bad idea.

[@fanofmediastuff269]

Oh thank god I thought I was the only one. Rogue X Magneto came out of no where and just felt out of place. And I was right! They weren't a thing in the original series, unless theres something I'm missing NO! This is just a wrong match-up...Made no sense and is just Eww

[@PhilFromSchool]

i'm holding out hope that the Xmen 97 thing is just a big misunderstanding like Will in PotC3 but... :| :| :| :| :| so uncomfortable..

[@barnabaskontra2588]

Firstly, there is nothing wrong with sexualizing any fictional character. I know you find it bad, but I belive you are wrong. I am a what some would call a "proshipper". Secondly, in my opinion the reason people complained about the killing joke roof sceen, wasnt because of the age gap, but beacuse the roof sceen was unnecesarry, and differed too drasticly from the rest of the film. Indeed it was perhaps too perverted, so it stood out too much, and took people out of the film. It essentially broke it a little bit. Lastly, I agree any self insert stuff always have to be called out, they rarely work out well for the flick. But throug out the video I waited to see when you are going to say, why was these releationships werid, or gross. The only thing you sad, that their agegap is too big, but thats not enough reason for me. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the point with Batman's and Batgirl's relationship is it supposed to be wrong, or weird. But you didnt provided enough reason why it is. Whether you like it or not, big agegaps happen in real life too. So perhaps that why people generally respond badly to criticism like yours. None the less, it was a good video, i look forward to what you will make next!

[@MikePhillips-x6m]

Batgirl having a crush on Batman is perfectly normal. During the 90s alot young women had a crush on men alot older them. That saying Batman having sex with Batgirl is rather disgusting considing she is suppose to be with Robin.

[@elizabethhurlbut1475]

Thank you for tackling this content. I never had respect for the trope of The Older Man/Younger Woman in film, and I despise it in comics as well. As a female reader, it makes the male character look like a dirty, creepy old man showing off his 'vitality' by hooking up with a young girl who doesn't know any better. I agree, these ships demean all the characters involved. In the Batman Animated Series, I loved the pairing of Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson. You're correct in calling out "Author Insert" with Bruce Timm breaking up the enduring romance of Batgirl and Nightwing for Bruce Wayne/Batman. It's tragic, it took the Killing Joke film to point out this perversion (made even more obvious with the extra age lines to Batman's face). I know women like mature men but as the age gap grows it changes the power balance of the relationship, with one as the "Adult" and the other as the "Child".