Can Women Be Pastors? A Discussion of Women in Ministry

[@boastonlyinthecross]

Agreed and I am a woman who was pursuing a theology degree and who was formerly a member of a church led by a woman. God be praised, He led me out of that deception and into sound Biblical faith and I was confirmed into the LCMS in September of 2020. I learn so much from your channel and the Weidner Institute as well. Thank you!

[@katandpapa]

Thank you for your comment.

[@Fushichou1978]

I'm so sorry you were brainwashed by misogyny and sexism into accepting the lies that pretend that women can't be Church leaders. You abandoned your calling for the teachings of false prophets.

[@momdad5368]

As an older woman, I really appreciate women's ministries. By that I mean women who minister to women. The bible is clear, men have the authority of the church.

[@jackblack496]

Just the church?

[@vngelicath1580]

@@jackblack496 No, it must be rooted in a deeper and more general principle

[@allisvanity...9161]

22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[1] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. Ephesians 5:22-33 ESV

[@Bible33AD]

The Bible is clear... Paul says in Timothy women will be saved by childbirth. Did Christ die in vain? Or when it comes to women, was His atoning sacrifice only for childless women coz whoever became a mother will be saved by childbirth. "The Bible is clear."

[@avonsterling36120]

​@@Bible33ADThe Bible is clear when you understand biblical hermeunetics.

[@jillbayer641]

We have so many opportunities to serve. I also was insulted by this until I realized it was my pride. Jesus was kind to women and had many women who had services at their homes. Doesn't mean they were pastors but they opened their homes in a very trying time. I'm back to my Missouri synod roots which does not allow women as pastors. It's in the scripture. So I put my puffed up pride aside and am happy to serve in the positions i can. Gid bless♥

[@fujikokun]

As a woman I’ve never had a problem with the idea that women can’t be ordained. I wonder if I would have felt differently pre-feminism. Feminists have made me extremely repulsed by female authority, as it is always so toxic. I do find the ministry of holy women inspiring, as we’ve had many female saints, but obviously that’s a completely different thing than having authority.

[@CGGeary]

Dude I just gotta say, as myself a Reformed Baptist, I thoroughly enjoy your channel and the glory you bring to God and his Word. Thank you.

[@kylelewis2890]

Good find good and faithful Caleb ;)

[@CGGeary]

@@kylelewis2890 OH HELLO MY DUDE

[@kylelewis2890]

@@CGGeary Yoooooo!! Glad to see you lurking on Dr. Cooper's channel and checking out his content, he knows his stuff! Lutheran theology has some real treats for ya! Congrats on the (relatively) recent marriage btw!

[@scottcarter1689]

Soli Deo Gloria

[@MrGassemann]

This might just be the best “one-hour-ish” teaching I’ve ever heard on this topic. Thank you for really clarifying this. I’ve listened to NT Wright regarding this and I fully agree with your response to his take on this.

[@dpd1184]

No, we can't. Phew! This position made me very angry when first investigating Lutheranism a couple years ago, but this proper doctrinal instruction was such a relief after decades of radical egalitarianism.

[@jamesbarksdale978]

25-30 years ago I belonged to a denomination that ordained women. At the time, although I leaned slightly complimentarian, it wasn't an issue for me. Then along came the LGBTetc wave. More and more pressure was created for the ordination of practicing homosexuals. The more I listened to and read the arguments for full inclusion, it became apparent to me that a similar interpretive methodology of Scripture had been used 40 years earlier for the ordination of women. Since then, I've been less inclined to accept the egalitarian argument. In my mind, it's a subtle manipulation of Scripture to accommodate current culture.

[@joshuadutrieux7874]

Love your channel, m'dude! Excited to hear what you have to say, especially when it comes to ordination, the imposition of hands, and apostolic succession. And Dr. Cooper, thanks for convincing me to leave Zwinglianism and Calvinism.

[@diannalaubenberg7532]

The question is not "do women have the ability to perform the work of a pastor," but "should a woman be a pastor." The answer is women have ability, but should not; the Bible is clear. That said, women should have opportunities to serve.

[@raykidder906]

The way i see it, having a woman serve as a pastor is likened to having a pharmacist serve as a physician. This problem with having a pharmacist working as a physician is how they will write prescriptions, which is contrary to the need for separation of duties. Wouldn't this promote drug addictions and changes in the concepts of medical ethics? This issue is NOT one of a lack of training among pharmacicts. Look at the fruits of women's ordination; especially the resulting new beliefs concerning sexual ethics.

[@CDLS32]

Thank you for such a thorough assessment of what scripture says! I always enjoy listening to your new videos and finding older “nuggets of gold”.

[@vngelicath1580]

The Priesthood of the Ministry (ministers sharing in Christ's Priesthood) that you mentioned is addressed specifically as such by the Apology of the AC (XIII). _" They are accordingly called priests, not in order to make any sacrifices for the people as in the Law, so that by these they may merit remission of sins for the people; but they are called to teach the Gospel and administer the Sacraments to the people."_ And interestingly, beyond just participating in presiding at the Eucharist, it is also 'priestly' when you lead the General Priesthood (as their representative) and offer THEM (and the Gospel you give to them) as an unbloody sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving (thank/peace offering) unto the Father (AC XXIV). _"25 Now the rest are eucharistic sacrifices, which are called sacrifices of praise, Lev. 3:1f.; __7:11__f.; Ps. __56:12__f., namely, the preaching of the Gospel, faith, prayer, thanksgiving, confession, the afflictions of saints, yea, all good works of saints. These sacrifices are not satisfactions for those making them, or applicable on behalf of others, so as to merit for these, ex opere operato, the remission of sins or reconciliation. For they are made by those who have been reconciled."_ There are a lot of sacerdotal aspects of the Ministry, in all honesty-- and it's way more complicated than just saying "Lutherans have pastors not priests." That would be something interesting to delve into sometime.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Absolutely.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Why does there have to be a "context' for women to preach/prophesy and yet there is no context for men to exercise their intellects? And, how is that not societal misogyny?

[@nath5360]

Spoiler: no

[@johnhallock2710]

Great series! Way to tackle tough stuff! Appreciate your integrity!

[@richardfrerks8712]

Baptised into the body of Christ.. Chastened as a son... Kept for HIS name sake... Amen

[@vngelicath1580]

One of the arguments that is often utilized is one that you are quite familiar with: The New Covenant always moves from 'exclusivity' to 'inclusivity' I think it's a worthy enough point to consider without instant dismissal... but at the end of the day, the Gospel never overthrows the Law (Order of Creation / Male-Adamic Headship -- the foundation of why Christ is a male [New Adam], and thus why those in His ministerial office are also male). Also C.S. Lewis's Essay on 'Women Priests' is apropos and gets into how in the ancient world, representatives of a 'god' reflect their god's gender (which is important when one considers this "coincidence" between the OT priesthood and NT ministry).

[@toddmacinnes983]

i know so many holy women who have a great passion for ministry and bringing people to christ. however i know gods word is clear in his directions for ministry. it is a hard topic, but i trust gods unchanging word on the matter.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

But this doesn't mean that these passionate holy women do not have a calling in the church to use those gifts! They do! It just is not to be used in the office of the pastoral ministry. But let us not think that somehow it is only the pastor who is essential to the church.

[@donaldjacobson4184]

@@DrJordanBCooper you really believe having testicles sets you apart? I don’t believe God is bigoted.

[@masonmitchell56]

@@donaldjacobson4184 men and women are complimentary and do not have the same roles, one is not more important than the other and we need each other to most effectively live in this world. The Bible is very clear about the complimentary nature of men and women and you can call it whatever you’d like but denying it is denying the scripture.

[@zarnoffa]

@@donaldjacobson4184 Maybe testicles do have some sort of magical powers your not aware of? Have you considered that possibility?

[@skylerstorm527]

@@bigbruno56 A pastor is a divinely established office to be held by “a man of one wife” among other qualifications. I would suggest that you look into the apostolic fathers. They were people put in positions of authority over a church by the apostles themselves. There most assuredly was a structured way in which churches were set up and there most assuredly were pastors of these churches. It’s just good history. God bless.

[@johnnyg.5499]

You gave a very insightful presentation. LCMS, like my RCC, does not ordain women and I was glad to hear the Lutheran Scriptural reasons for that. For us Catholics, not ordaining women (which I agree with) is a settled issue. You mentioned that your wife is a deaconess and offered to give a presentation on this calling. YES......I'd love to hear about this topic FROM a deaconess. I know nothing about how this office in the Church works. I listen to you daily (along with Pastors Wolfmueller and Borghardt) and would broaden my world by hearing about this topic. Thanks for the great work you do; God bless your ministry and that of Mrs. Cooper.

[@josephzammit8483]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3zCqaR4rb13eLc

[@ProLifeBryce]

Excellent, brother! Thank you! Just shared this with some dear friends, whom I love, with whom I disagree on this subject. They support women’s ordination. Thanks for dealing with this matter in a kind way!

[@danielfinn9460]

He actually gets to Scripture at 16:44

[@fujikokun]

As I’m watching through this, it hadn’t occurred to me that in establishing the ordained pastoral office Biblically it makes the case for the high church. Magnificent!

[@kurthein]

Very helpful. I have one suggestion that I believe would move the conversation forward. I think it's really important to define terms clearly and biblically at the beginning of the discussion. For example, you did well to catch yourself and define what you meant by "ministry" when saying "women in ministry." Technically, I don't like this phrase because ministry (outside of the particular ministry of the presbuteros) is commanded of women. Additionally, I think using the term "pastor" as a synonym for presbuteros is also terribly confusing. It conflates a spiritual gift (shepherding) with an office (presbuteros). Since the Bible commands women to pastor other women they must also have the gift of pastoring. Another interesting word is "preaching". How do we carefully define the difference between "prophecying" and "preaching?" Clearly defining words using the language of Scripture helps us avoid many of the emotional landmines that exist in this discussion and get to the truth faster.

[@SupImTylerP]

I grew up nondenominational and watching your videos made me want to go to a Lutheran church in my city, but it was led by a female pastor. She dipped slightly into politics too unfortunately. Really disappointed but I’m looking at other Lutheran churches in my area for next week! I appreciate all your videos and what you do, God bless!

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Try to find an AALC or LCMS congregation. That was probably ELCA.

[@Ash-js2ig]

Wels, or els churches are very good as well

[@bjrinshore]

O.k., Two years later and so I don't expect any sort of acknowledgement. But just so you are encouraged that your work has value.

[@reidbowers7894]

Thank you for your exposition. I may write with my full thoughts on it at some point, but for now know that I very much appreciated your articulation of the office of deacon.

[@joellubamo5696]

My brother, I love the way you debate in a very balanced way. Rightly articulating those of the opposing view, which is what made me listen to the end. I do understand where you and those of your school of thought are coming. However, I am still biblically convinced that women can preach in a gathering of men (am happy we do agree on this point to some extent, on the basis of scripture). I was interested to hear how you handle 1 Cor. 11 just like I believe you would, in how I handle 1 Tim. 2. On minute 28:15-21 you begin by saying the text on 1 Cor 11:2-16 is a little strange. I suppose it's due to some of the issues that can't be easily explained, like "because of angels" in verse 10. However in your explanation you admit it was a gathering where men and women are present. You also admit that "it is true that prophesying is essentially teaching" (31:59) and that "there is a precedent in the book of Corinthians for women teaching in the midst of believers assumingly men and women". You admit that this section has perplexed a lot of commentators (could this be a question of bias that informs your interpretive reflex?) for bluntly putting that some women are doing things out loud" which includes praying out loud and prophesying which has some form of teaching (I believe you say so because of 1 Cor 14:2) You however don't believe this is an official formal gathering of church (34:30-35; "maybe of laity, because it doesn't appear to be a divine service or a worship service but a gathering of believers who are praying or sharing the word) and in that context both men and women can lead and pray because it is not a formal gathering) but rather a home Bible study. In 35:24 you refute those who wholesomely banish all women sharing even in the midst of men and women Bible study (I wish to say here it is a good point. That is admission for women ministering the word among men and women except that you superimpose an opinion that it could be when it is kind of not "official"). It seems your argument is for women not to be ordained as priests (35:44ff) although you admit they can pray or prophesy (teach even where there are men provided it's informal). And here I have to say "that is a little strange".

[@8784-l3b]

(I didn't watch the video.) I believe women can have any valid position/title in our time. This is largely based on my essay on Deborah the judge. Reply if you want it posted. Deborah would judge a man of a specific sin, and then pronounce a verdict which could not be appealed (Deuteronomy 17). To say that women in our time can't teach men that laziness, for example, is a sin, makes no sense to me. She was also over Barak the commander of the army. She also gave the order to begin the battle that Israel won. See Judges 4 (and 5).

[@jeremiahjasso8591]

It would be amazing if you did an episode on the case for church buildings as you dive into the theology of the church!

[@juliarussell5776]

Thanks!

[@bmstellar]

Great vid and I always appreciate the balance Dr. Cooper brings to difficult topics. Long time fan.... I would like to see some interaction regarding the hapax legomena in 1 Tim 2. The word authentain is only used once in the NT and can mean domineering, controlling etc. So it appears context may not be able to give us the answer. The greek for woman can be wives and looking at 1 Peter 3 it seems to be an exact parallel which Peter is clearly discusses wives and husbands. Given that info it seems Paul is discussing wives and husbands and not necessarily the office of pastor. Anyhow, it would be cool to see some interaction with those issues. Thanks Dr. Cooper.

[@lc-mschristian5717]

1 Timothy 2. ' nuff said. Thank you and God's peace be with you

[@zarnoffa]

@@jameswillison7195 liberals gonna liberal

[@richardfrerks8712]

Jesus Christ is the Son of YHWH

[@christhayer5034]

@@richardfrerks8712 He certainly is. He is also YHWH incarnate.

[@lc-mschristian5717]

@@richardfrerks8712 Jesus IS YHWH!

[@zarnoffa]

@@jameswillison7195 Nice attempt at insult. Yes, I will scoff at different opinions that are dumb. How can you not? It’s not a matter of taste... like going to the store and choosing between corn flakes and fruity pebbles. The Word is plain and clear on this matter.

[@moomin8251]

I've been a Christian for coming up to 39 years, I've never had any problem accepting that leadership in the church is male. But I have a genuine question when it comes to teaching. What about women like Corrie TenBoom and others like her? You can call it what you like but she taught in churches and all sorts of places including men's prisons and she was used by the Lord to bring thousands to Him and it wasn't only evangelism, she taught a lot on surrender and other topics.

[@Dilley_G45]

You can share experiences of course. But that doesn't change the command in the Bible that women are not to teach scripture or have authority... She can give testimony but she isn't allowed to teach and preach in church. She can talk about how Christianity has made her life better especially in terms of forgiveness. May I suggest that we also talk a out other people in the 1940s like Catholic Bishop von Galen who stood up to the regime, preached against persecution and actually saved thousands of people from being killed? Why is he ignored and everyone is always just talking about Bonhoeffer and T'Boom.

[@Omatimestwo]

Had the privilege of her coming to speak at our church on a few occasions. She was indeed anointed by God. I do not believe that it is wrong for a women to espouse scripture. Still on the fence about a woman pastoring a church, but women can and should explain/teach/ expound on the Word whenever needed.

[@Blaisesongs]

Can you address that part about “being saved through the bearing of children?” The rest made sense. Thank you.

[@mpkropf5062]

The Bible says how Eve was saved through her childbirth.

[@daviddavenport9350]

I simply cannot reconcile deciding such an issue because of a minor difference in physical anatomy.....we are speaking of spiritual things, and frankly one cannot get around the fact that the question is purely spiritual/intellectual and not at all physical.

[@Michael-ee6tl]

I think you hit the "nail" right on the head. The world tries to rate a woman's strength of faith and closeness to Christ as qualifications for ministry. Also, that it's just not fair that all men get to be ministers and women don't. Thank you for explaining.

[@TheB1nary]

Not all men do get to be ministers - that's a myth. It's a very selective role.

[@Willwhite5809]

The problem with saying that Paul's teachings on women in the church is just cultural context and isn't important today is that could be applied to literally everything in the Christian religion to water it down into mush. "oh well Jesus isn't the only way to father, that's just culturally what early Christians thought." "oh sexual immorality is okay, Pual and Jesus just said bad things about it because they were Jews in a backward time." "Hell isn't real, that's just a cultural belief of ignorant Jews in Ancient times."

[@sameash3153]

No, we don't have to do that. We can affirm that the gospels are all 100% divinely inspired while the epistles are not so simple. All we have to do is say that the inspiration of God only goes one way. The word of God can be revealed through man, but that doesn't therefore mean that every word uttered or written by that same man is the word of God. The epistles divine inspiration, but with a lot of personal interjections. Paul's epistles are full of explicit opinions in the first person, written in a conversational tone, often "I, Paul, am delighted by" or "I, Paul, am disgusted by the sight of". The word of God does not begin with "I, Paul", those statements have to be understood as his own words. The gospels are not the same, we do not have to question which words are divine inspiration and which are the author's opinions, because the gospels almost never interrupt the account to say "and I, Luke, thought this was regrettable". It's literally always Paul that we're arguing about. There's a reason for that.

[@oliviaroberts6622]

I appreciate the video, Dr. Cooper. I think working directly from scripture, and parallels in the apostolic office, is a better route than one I often get from Roman Catholics about the priest working in the role of Christ (I think that argument is just terrible, really). My own church ordains women as priests and bishops, and I accept this, so I can't have myself agree with you on this topic, though. I guess I'd want to ask about how Romans 16:7 should be understood; I would guess you'd interpret it as saying that Andronicus and Junia are well-known to the apostles, but not that they are apostles themselves?

[@adamhorstman3398]

You resisted the temptation to say that Wright is wrong!

[@thirdparsonage]

Would it not make much more sense that "prophesying" is not teaching, but prophesying in the more charismatic sense? If teaching and prophesying are the same, wouldn't it be redundant to give two names to the same thing? And Paul talks elsewhere about if everybody prophesies they will reveal the secrets of the person's heart" which would seem to indicate some kind of speech from God which is not the result of studying the word but the result of discerning something that the Holy Spirit is saying in the moment. I think Grudem makes a good case about this area. Anway it would also seem to clear up why Paul allows women to prophesy but not teach.

[@8784-l3b]

I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. ______________________________________________________________ you wrote: Anway it would also seem to clear up why Paul allows women to prophesy but not teach. To this point, a Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy.

[@carbine090909]

Aren't the 1 Corinthians verses debatable? We know that "first" Corinthians is actually Paul's second letter to that church, and there was then a reply from them. Our 1 Corinthians was then a response to that reply. I've read that the "nevertheless" is properly translated as "however," as in the NASB. So Paul is contrapointing verses 11 onward from what came before. One view is that 11:4-10 is quoting the Corinthian's reply, but in a language that doesn't use quotation marks. Those verses have always been head scratchers, and this may explain why. Also, Chapter 11 follows Paul speaking in Chapter 10 about not being offensive to newer believers, or Gentiles. Clearly there was debate back then about women leading the church. I think Paul's point is, Leave it up to the church - if it seems offensive to the laity, don't do it, but if they don't have a problem with it, then do it. They are praised for holding firm to traditions, but traditions aren't necessarily doctrine. I'm not married to either position. I believe Scripture is inerrant, but I also believe people do err in their interpretations of it, at best because our knowledge is incomplete. So if my LCMS church forbids female pastors, then, ok. I'm happy with the male one it already has. But if it installs a horrible male pastor, who does not teach the Word rightly, and the only other option is a female pastor at a different church who does, then I'll leave and not feel guilty about it.

[@donaldjacobson4184]

Exactly right. My wife preached the Gospel and the salvific work of Christ far more faithfully than many male clergy I know. And I have been to scores of churches as an organist

[@Dilley_G45]

@@F7dJa probably a fake Lutheran church like elca or some pentecostal thing?

[@colinlambert882]

If Scripture is inerrant, Was Jesus born where Joseph lived in Bethlehem or during a visit from Nazareth. On Which day of the week was Jesus crucified? On the day of preparation or after they had shared the Passover meal?

[@paulc1391]

I’m reading the passages in the pastoral texts and the qualifications seem to be gender neutral when doing the interlinear on the Blue Letter Bible but the English translation include gender pronouns. Am I missing something? Is there a better interlinear where Koine Greek does include the gender pronouns?

[@seancarpenter8372]

Theological meme pages are the worst…

[@Snoozler]

I'm confused.. here in Norway, our state Lutheran churches have female pastors?

[@Dilley_G45]

Lutheran Church Norway is independent from other churches. Dr. Cooper is part of American AALC. They follow the Bible and don't ordain women. Just like American LCMS, ELDONA, WELS, ELS and German SELK. Many "Lutheran" churches have become liberal sadly. Like in Sweden and Norway and mainstream Luthrran in Germany (Ekd) or elca in usa

[@BitsySkittlesPryss]

I just found your channel a couple of days ago and have been joyfully binging over the weekend. I must disagree with your justification of denying ordination to women, though. It would have been a bit easier to digest if you had done a brief recap at the end, outlining your (or, the Bible's) position on this topic. You are disparaging of the idea of cultural context yet, in my opinion, cultural context can be a legitimate argument. Anyway, I am thoroughly enjoying your channel!

[@raykidder906]

I am an Anglican and I agree with Dr. Jordan Cooper's interpretations of scripture as presented here, as I am against the ordination of women for pastoral duties. One thing for you to consider is the fruits of women's ordination. These bad fruits are (1) a slide towards Unitarian-Universalism with a lack of affirmation of what the Bible verses teach, (2) tolerance of abortion and homosexuality, and (3) a tolerance for no-fault divorce. Although I agree with Dr. Cooper, it would be very insightful to also examine the human reproductive roles of men as compared to those of women. I see lots of similarities by comparing the complimentary roles of males and females with the complimentary roles of physicians and pharmacists. Having a woman serve as a pastor is likened to a pharmacist who writes prescriptions. Having pharmacists as physicians has resulted in the opioid crisis in the USA. They have different, but complimentary roles, so it is in the church with the male and female roles in the churches.

[@paulthiele3102]

An excellent and thought-provoking video, Dr Cooper. You made some arguments I have not come across before. One question. You make the point that in Romans 5 Paul identifies Adam as the one responsible for the Fall. But in 1 Timothy he switches this to Eve. Why do you think Paul makes this change between Romans and 1 Timothy?

[@justinhilton]

I'm not Jordan, but in the 1 Timothy passage it's still Adam who is primarily responsible for the Fall. Adam was formed first and was supposed to communicate the command that God gave directly to him to Eve. However, he failed and so the serpent was able to twist God's words which she had received secondhand. This is how she was "deceived, and became a trangressor." Whereas Adam's transgression was a plain, knowing act of disobedience. This all underscores again how things go sideways when archetypal man is not fulfilling his proper role.

[@raykidder906]

At the time of the original sin, the woman was Adam's flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones. When Adam was following the woman's advice, he was living according to the flesh. This is likened to a physician who is gullible and listens to the advice of a pharmacist, and turns his patients into dope addicts! We read in Romans 8:6 that carnal mindedness is death, while spiritual mindedness is life and peace. Similarly, being a sex maniac without reproductive responsibilities leads to calls for legalized abortion, along with the false view that an abortion is none of the husband's business. Woman as pastor means that the man has a woman ruling over him the way a dope addict has a narcotic dealer ruling over him.

[@colinlambert882]

Because one epistle was written by Paul, and the other something between 30 and 75 years after he was killed.

[@lorenzomurrone2430]

It's funny how Wright calls inerrantism an "American" idea. Sometimes the way he says it makes it sound like it is somehow less worthy of value because it's American.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

That is absolutely what he means.

[@lorenzomurrone2430]

@@DrJordanBCooper Meh, a bit odd, honestly, especially coming from a respected scholar like him.

[@conceptualclarity]

​@@lorenzomurrone2430 he is not sound

[@kentyoung5282]

The "pastoral office" being itself legitimate was assumed throughout this presentation. You referenced "low church traditions" that treat all the brethren as equally fulfilling the priestly roles, rightly acknowledging that your argument doesn't really apply to them, that you were simply defending male-only pastors from a sacramental perspective. As one coming from this "low church" perspective, I noticed you continually using the biblical term "overseer" when in the text itself, but would switch, without explanation, to "pastor" or "one who consecrates the Eucharist" or "administer of the sacraments" when giving your interpretation. I'd be interested in hearing a defense of "pastors" as such, if you'd ever be willing to do a podcast on that. From my perspective "overseers" are just mature brothers who watch over the meeting, with no greater "priestly" role than any of the rest of the saints (especially in light of Matthew 23:8-10). I'd be very interested to hear your response. Thanks!

[@terrancecomely5607]

I'd be interested in an explanation of "Pastor" as an office as well, and would love to see Dr. Cooper address Matthew 23:8-10.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Good suggestion!

[@secundemscripturas992]

I love the video Pastor Cooper! Question though, what do you make of churches who recognize that only qualified men can be ordained, but who simultaneously allow women to share during the sermon or after the sermon (still in the pulpit), sort of as an extension of their husband who is preaching. So basically I’m asking about split sermons where the male “leads”.

[@stfnknbb]

I am not opposed to your interpretation per se. It certianly is what scritpure seems to say. What really bothers me is *why*? Like, has God forbidden women for no reason? What?

[@kasiarzpl8647]

my guess is that men are better at leading both men and women, than women, on average ofc.

[@richardfrerks8712]

It's coherent to assume that the structure of the family should be the same in the church... But good luck articulating in this day... Imma stick with the firmament...heavens open.... Promises laid up in heaven... Doctrine... All available thru JESUS CHRIST alone.. Amen praise the Lord

[@ryanderoque7910]

Non-Lutheran Ex-Mormon religious skeptic here (that was a mouthful). Genuine question. To my knowledge no Christian denominations require the women in their congregations to cover their heads as Paul describes in the NT. My guess is that this is seen as a cultural thing in Paul’s day and therefore not meant to be prescriptive to us in our day, right? So why can’t we say that the subjugation of women and their denial of positions of leadership, and therefore status and power, within the church body is also just a cultural thing in Paul’s day and therefore not meant to be prescriptive to us in our day? Again, this is an honest question and I’m interested in your reasoning here. Thanks!

[@zarnoffa]

Don’t Eastern Orthodox wear head coverings? Don’t the Amish and Quakers? I think Old Apostolic Lutherans wear coverings. It’s best to interpret Paul to mean women ought to have long hair. That’s the natural covering God gave her: “For her hair is given to her for a covering.” - 1 Corinthians 11:15 But, modern women threw off this rule in the past 70 years and cut their hair short - especially older American women. Protestant women years ago all used to wear hats or scarves to church. They all got tricked somewhere along the way and pastors are too wimpy to say anything. Any woman who knows the Word would not cut her hair short. She’d know it is a covering and it’s not a cultural thing. The “cultural context” excuse is truly a lame interpretation when you actually read the verses.

[@ryanderoque7910]

@@zarnoffa That’s true, I should have said American mainstream Christian churches. Having clarified that, well then why isn’t hair covering/long hair made into as big of a deal as women not becoming priests? If church leaders can be “too wimpy” to respond to modern rejection of Paul’s word on female head coverings without all hell breaking lose, why can’t they be “too wimpy” to respond to modern rejection of Paul’s word on female ordination without any major problems?

[@zarnoffa]

@@ryanderoque7910 I totally agree. I should mention, some Pentecostals and Baptists do make it a big deal, also... in addition to others. I’d say, the obvious difference is laity vs. clergy. It’s not going to cause a big stink for an old lady to cut her hair compared to installing a female pastor or bishop. One is temporary and bound to an individual, since hair grows. One is institutional and irreversible once established. But, you’re totally right. Pastors in bigger conservative Lutheran denominations are too lax on female coverings. They ought to stick to the Word as it is written and not wiggle out using the same arguments liberals use to establish female clergy.

[@ryanderoque7910]

@@zarnoffa Or just ordain women AND allow them to have whatever hairstyle they chose because it’s the right thing to do?

[@zarnoffa]

@@ryanderoque7910 “because it’s the right thing to do” Based on what? I mean, if you’re going to invent your own religion, you’ll need to go find some other prophets and apostles and Christ to back your new religion. The ones that are conveyed in Scripture aren’t the religion you’re proposing.

[@m.g.7223]

Why wouldn't women be allowed to be priests? I can't think of any reason God would exclude any woman from doing that. Makes absolutely no sense to me as a woman. But it was widely accepted during that time and even later that women were inferior. A text can be inspired but that doesn't mean that it's infallible. I usually see men not understanding how this can be related to the Bible.

[@fujikokun]

This is a settled issue. Let’s talk about the real question; head coverings for women or not?

[@8784-l3b]

...because the hair instead of a covering hath been given to her... In your own selves judge ye; is it seemly for a woman uncovered to pray to God? doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man indeed have long hair, a dishonour it is to him? and a woman, if she have long hair, a glory it is to her, because the hair instead of a covering hath been given to her;... -Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Does even nature itself not teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her as a covering. -NASB A woman's long hair is the 'covering'. No fabric covering is mentioned in Corinthians. If a fabric covering is actually required, then all references to hair are totally irrelevant to the subject. It only can make sense if the long hair of a woman is the 'covering'. She should be covered, with her long hair. To have short hair, like a man, means that she is basically bald. Therefore uncovered.

[@Michael-ee6tl]

And 1 more comment after reading several of the other comments. I'm not sure I could argue it but I've heard it said that a woman attempting to become a pastor is like attempting to turn the marriage supper of the Lamb into a lesbian reunion because the church is the bride of Christ as men are the head of women. Family structure. The world wants lesbian women and kweere men to have children, I say let them have children naturally, and good lick... I mean luck.

[@allynheyes6233]

Why should this be even discussed. Women are not to be elders or pastors. I am a women.

[@mpkropf5062]

Because many denominations are being led astray by the devil in allowing women pastors! The Church needs to fight against such evil!

[@norski4052]

I appreciate the steelmanning of the opposite position

[@markhorton3994]

There are definitely women in leadership roles. Paul greats them in his epistles. Women who host churches in their homes. A woman and her husband tought Apollos what he needed to know when he was preaching with incomplete knowledge. Paul traveled with, worked with and preached with two fellow tent makers, a woman and her husband. Another woman is specifically called a deacon. All of these are referred to by name but I am too lazy to look them up to make sure I get their names right. As Dr. Cooper demonstrated women cannot be pastors but they do serve. Greek women were not educated like Greek men. Depending on her father's social position she might be completely illiterate or know enough to manage a household. Paul told the Corinthian women to shut up in church because they were, probably deliberately, asking ignorant disruptive questions. They were also dressing inappropriately, cutting their hair short like men and trying to take over. The instructions specifically to them are to be heeded as applicable by everyone else. There are plenty of other verses that show that as Dr. Cooper explained only Some Men can be pastors.

[@mpkropf5062]

Those women were never ordained and never preached in Synagogues or House of God. The devil knows his time is short and is deceiving a lot of churches and putting in women’s mind they can be Pastors!! It’s not from God, but the division the devil is bringing to The Church of Jesus Christ!!

[@LXX-Mercedes]

I can't believe someone like N. T. Wright has a high view of Scripture. His view is high only some times on certain subjects He doesn't even believe in creation

[@MegPea391]

Yes please. Would love to hear from your wife too.

[@arthurdurham8431]

NO, 1ST CORINTHIANS 14: 34 NO

[@colinlambert882]

So we should go back to first century patriarchalism during an empire where a third of all people were slaves, uncondemned by Jesus or Paul? Women should be considered unclean during their periods & for 7 days after giving birth to a boy, and twice as long through the misfortune of having a girl. As the good doctor says: "I stand firm on what Scripture teaches". Just waiting for him to admit how many Levitical laws he doesn’t keep or expect others to keep, starting with his failure to keep all the rules and timings of the Sabbath. Blood sacrifice in Temple worship ended with its destruction in 70 AD, again Leviticus has detailed rules. Should we observe first century culture, so that women like Mary could be betrothed to older men as babies and taken in marriage just as soon as they could have babies?

[@rewiktorkovacs]

If I accept your opinion - but I don't - the biggest problem is, that nowadays the pastoral service is too broad. A pastor have to preach, have to baptize, weddings, administration, lead the congregation, comfort, pastoral care, etc. If we separate these services, the woman will have a lot more field to serve in a church (preaching, pastoral care, etc.) even as a "full time employee", even as a non-leader (presiding) pastor. Because this broad sense, I think not the office of the apostles is the closest service area to the pastoral service but rather the OT judges.

[@beowulf.reborn]

Prophesying is not teaching, it's not even related, at all. Prophecy is given from and by God, through the mouth of the Prophet. He appears to them in a dream or a vision, and gives them a message to deliver. It is not in any way based upon the Prophet or Prophetess' aptitude in teaching. Nor does it depend in anyway upon the Prophet's own interpretation of the dream or vision. They are simply a mouthpiece of the LORD, no more, no less. As such, women are recognized as suitable vessels for the LORD, to be called and used as Prophetesses, just as men are used as Prophets.

[@colinjames7765]

Can you lay out the roll, practice, and boundaries of the deaconess? What are they allowed to do in the service? Are they allowed to evangelize by doing the scripture readings in the service, without pastoring by giving a sermon(why or why not)?

[@joshuakurtenbach1972]

Deaconesses generally do nothing in the service. Their role is outside of the service, focusing on the mercy work of the church. That is, caring for the poor, the widow, etc.

[@colinjames7765]

@@joshuakurtenbach1972 any reason they couldn’t be a reader? Given some of the examples of Mary delivering the good news to the apostles, and Phoebe possibly reading the letter to the Romans, etc. This would be delivering someone else’s message, but not expounding via a sermon, or pastoring. Just literally reading the Word. I’m curious why this is not part of the duties, or at least allowed.

[@joshuakurtenbach1972]

@@colinjames7765 that is because it is not part of the vocation. The public reading of Scripture belongs to the pastoral office, as demonstrated in the pastoral epistles. Lutherans view diaconal ministry as not being instituted by Christ (unlike the pastoral office) but by the Church. And so when deaconesses were created it was for the purpose of mercy work. Obviously within that work they share the hope within them, just as all Christians are called to.

[@richardsaintjohn8391]

In real Lutheran faith YES. All are baptized and Priests.

[@garethlowe5755]

You are right that we should look at the main scriptures that deal with women in leadership. And even more we can look at actual women in the Bible and that is what refutes the absolute prohibition on women in Christian "office". I will sum up my argument in 6 names: Miriam. Deborah. Huldah. Junia. Priscilla. Phoebe. Furthermore your points about the priesthood make the point for women in leadership. In the NT women are: - Priests - Kings - Sons - Prophets (or prophetic) What makes a person competent for ministry is not gender but the anointing of the Spirit. And access to the gifts and graces of the Spirit is never limited to men but open to all (Acts 2).

[@aidanmcwhirter2612]

Send this to every Episcopalian y’all know

[@iaishahphawa5404]

This is the best and biblical teaching.

[@rockpaperscissors82]

Your connection with EPC is very similar to mine, albeit ECO. My church left the PCUSA for ECO about five years ago. My argument in favor of women's ordination is that women can bring their distinct gifts as women to ordained ministry, presumably similar to Priscilla and Phoebe, and these gifts complement the men in ordained ministry. In other words, the idea is that the male-female binary and complementarity can be modeled in ordained ministry, contra a bland, anti-binary egalitarianism. This requires that the senior pastor be male and the associate pastor be male or female. It would exclude the senior pastor role from women, which is de facto (not de jure) the case in the vast majority of ECO congregations. I know this is a very minority position -- neither liberal nor conservative, as represented in either the PCUSA/TEC/UCC/UMC/ELCA on the one hand or the PCA/LCMS/SBC/AG on the other hand.

[@rustydavid5212]

Growing up in a very biblical and conservative southern baptist congregation some of the best Sunday school teachers i had were women. The older women were always phenomenal with teaching young children. But the idea of a woman leading the church was completely unheard of. Women in positions of power is a punishment from God

[@blakeferris7797]

If you seriously want to talk about the role of women pastors in the Lutheran Church, then why don't you have some discussion of the ELCA and bring in some men and women pastors from the ELCA, where there are many women pastors? That would give your followers a different perspective where in your same Lutheran mindset they could hear and see for themselves. That would be so very helpful.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Head coverings are pure societal misogyny....just think of the Burkha in Islam...and tell me that is not the case! Paul's reference to Genesis is pretty weak porridge in this question.....

[@dallascopp4798]

Ok if you believe Paul wasn’t Biblically faithful when writing that, then you’re not Christian. Either you believe the whole Bible or you don’t. Picking and choosing scripture that you do and do not like is not how Christianity works. You might as well just start a different religion at that point.

[@richardfrerks8712]

Hi Jordan... I go to Holy Trinity Lutheran in Ephrata.. Our pastor is a woman and absolutely Gospel/Bible brilliant.. Here are some pastors I listen to and consider her Gospel as good or better than.. John MacArthur. Voddie Bauchem. Justin Peters. Charles Lawson. Roy Far. Spurgeon.

[@Dilley_G45]

If she was brilliant she would resign. She clearly can't read the Bible which is very clear on this. The other pastors you mentioned....are they not all calvinists?

[@Daniel-id6le]

She is out of order and not submissive to God. I speak as a 57 year old celebrity. I do not want to hear from them at all. In the body christ the only authority they have over a man is their own man and as a couple they are to be mutually submissive to christ. For a woman to show any authority over any other man is a shame, or as paul calls it is shameful!

[@judithtaylor6713]

Can men be deaconesses?

[@mpkropf5062]

That would be called deacons.

[@dannylongo4694]

Nope

[@daviddavenport9350]

WAIT! You cannot dismiss that Paul was a 1st C. Middle Eastern ex-Pharise, coming from a highly misogynistic culture more in alignment with modern AL Qaeda or Taliban thinking than Western Christian thought.....that is who he was!

[@Procopius464]

Short answer: no, of course not.

[@richardfrerks8712]

My mom is a retired pastor...

[@donaldjacobson4184]

My wife is a retired pastor too. I wonder if Paul today would condemn women in ministry. I highly doubt it. Paul’s comments must be taken in a cultural and historical context. This is my only beef 🥩 with the LCMS. My wife’s ministry were valid and efficacious. This is one of the few points where I agree with the ELCA . I guess I’m a hybrid. Others will probably say heretic. Oh well. I’m a sinner like the rest of you and am forgiven by faith through grace. Or is this some sort of mortal sin? 😂

[@markywongberg]

@That Lutheran Guy based

[@markywongberg]

@That Lutheran Guy doubly based

[@donaldjacobson4184]

@That Lutheran Guy Don’t be a pompous bigot. Take that up with God. There is neither male nor female... . I’ve seen the fruits of her labor in Christ. And the anti female bigotry too. You are extremely legalistic. My God is extremely accepting and forgiving. Good luck with your image of God.

[@donaldjacobson4184]

@That Lutheran Guy Lol 😂. I’m not a liberal. I’m an extremely conservative Republican. I just won’t hesitate to call out bs when I see it

[@soteriology1012]

In other words Wright is Wrong.

[@jackblack496]

No women over men in any capacity ... the market place, politics, etc.

[@DrJordanBCooper]

Yeah... I don't see that biblically at all. Your position I mean. I've heard it argued, but I'm not convinced.

[@jackblack496]

@@DrJordanBCooper ok so when a woman is the weaker vessel, called to serve her husband, used as discipline when good men do not lead, this is not found biblically? So when she had a question she should ask her husband and Joe at work on Monday? When she is president she should leave her home and children and rule over a nation of men? Are you elca?

[@joseortegabeede8233]

@@jackblack496 he is not ELCA at all lol.

[@rogerplested9484]

Yes I am very interested in hearing from your wife. However as God has granted her freedom of expression, so should you. On the video you should introduce her and then leave the room so she does not feel compromised by your presence or fearful of saying something that you would disagree with.

[@mathewlowrey2734]

are you inviting pastor and his wife to publicly disagree with each other as to hoky teaching?? are you implying that pastors wife only agrees with him to his face out of fear, or propriety? are you further inferring that pastors wife is is harboring difference and dissension in holy teaching, yet publicly acquiescing, and yet also eager to utter that dissent behind his back????? Id suggest that you should strongly consider your obligation to be a neighbor to pastor and his wife, and repent of this remark.

[@rogerplested9484]

@@mathewlowrey2734 I am well versed in the multitude of issues in this subject. After reading and listening to numerous presentations, there are a huge number of mistakes that are made. Two common mistakes are the misuse of reason and the incorporation of ideologies of the world into the understanding of scripture.Knowing of the vast differences of opinion, I was very surprised that Jordon would have suggested that his wife participate in the discussion because it places her into a very difficult position and I would not have made the statement. If Jordon was to proceed then I wanted to give him a suggestion of what to do, so that his wife would have some credibility. If she does speak then what I would expect that there will be substantial agreement between them on the issues with some minor differences, probably on having her head covered while in the sanctuary.

[@fujikokun]

This is borderline slanderous. I’m sure his wife doesn’t fear disagreeing with him.

[@mpkropf5062]

I’m sure she would not disagree if she’s LSCM!

[@richardfrerks8712]

I grew up in a WELS...

[@timurermolenko2013]

Jedem das seine - to each his own

[@margueritelangton6362]

you are so long-winded im pulling out im bored.