Can you make a pentatonic music notation system?

[@Fire_Axus]

like the blues piece at the end.

[@JLMoriart]

Thanks!

[@RememberGodHolyBible]

Very interesting. I do wonder if our sense of generic pitch classes is fixed. If C to Eb is inherent in our brain as a third and C to D# is inherently a second. I only play in Pythagorean tuning and I consider it the true just intonation because the one generating interval for pitch class is pure harmonically and easily understood by our brains. I have often wondered if in C major for example E and Fb are two entirely different things or, if there is ever a time where they could be used as an option swapping one out for another. For example ending a piece in C major with the chord C Fb and G. Or if doing this is just making Fb an out of tune E and tricking our ears into hearing it as an E, as a third, when it is really a fourth. does the melodic phrase walking up C, D, Fb, NEED to be harmonically justified, or can enharmonic notes be swapped at will for different vertical color. Sometimes when I am listening just vertically to harmony the C, Fb, G chord sounds good in C major. But if I also listen horizontally, which I am only now learning to do, listening to melodic movement intonation, the C, Fb, G sounds out of tune, the Fb just sounds like an E that never fully got up to pitch. Just wondering your thoughts if there is anything objective going on here, or if it is a relative phenomenon based on a variety of factors.

[@JLMoriart]

You're touching on some really tough questions that I'm pretty sure no one has answered yet. Maybe it's base on a variety of factors, and maybe some of those factors are objective/universal =P Maybe it's all underpinned by some fundamental theory of human "categorical perception". Maybe it's our brains mapping of our concept of physical space to pitch, with a max of 3 dimensions. I have had similar experiences in Pythagorean and super-Pythagorean tunings, where the "more in-tune" (closer to 5:4) note sounds wrong to me, borderline sour, even though I can hear that harmonically it blends fine. I imagine it's that I get used to the small size of the semitone, so the larger step is less satisfying. I try to err on the side of not worrying too much about what is and isn't fundamental/objective though, and instead pay attention to what's inspiring to me. I've found MOS scales and 2D regular temperaments inspiring, so that's what I've focused on.

[@RememberGodHolyBible]

@@JLMoriart Fascinating, thank you for the response. I have seldom heard of another also having the same experience with the 5:4 sounding out of tune while the 81/64 or it's approximate sounding preferred in a chord. But I go back and forth sometimes, I guess it is a matter of following what is right for any given piece of composition and not worry too much on the underlying universal principles that may or may not be there.

[@RafaelSolaPACalsaverini]

Mind = blown

[@adamfreese]

The scale with the Eb definitely sounded smoother in both temperaments. But I also liked the sound of the using D#. It has a weird sort of edgy folky sound to it that the scale with the Eb doesn't quite have. I wonder why that is.

[@EchoHeo]

blue note?

[@adamfreese]

@@EchoHeo You're right. D# is a better approximation for the septimal minor third.

[@JLMoriart]

Cool yeah, there's definitely something to be said for the melodic "smoothness" of the more "regular" scales, but of course the less regular version has its own appeal. Have you seen my video "The blues scale is wrong! (maybe)"? In it, I suggest a spelling of the blues scale as C-D#-E#-F#-G-A#-(B-)C which, in accurate meantone tunings, gives you the septimal intervals 7/6 and 7/4 over the tonic. I use that scale for the composition in the second half of my video "31-tone meantone tutorial".

[@adamfreese]

@@JLMoriart I haven't seen it, but what you suggest makes sense. In 31ET especially. I personally prefer spelling the notes Eb7, Gb7, and Bb7 rather than D#, F#, and A#. This is partly my JI leanings, but also I think makes the harmonic functions clearer. e.g., Eb7 is a (septimal minor) third on C and a (harmonic) seventh on F. D# looks like a strange sort of second and sixth, respectively.

[@azraksash]

@@adamfreese Of course, it is not clearer - notes in just intonation are unique entities on their own. By using any sort of note naming and quantization we reduce and simplify these JI relations. In 5-limit we can have roughly pentatonic (16/15) or heptatonic (25/24) chromas and systems (of course, we can use bigger edos as interval naming systems, but I don't think they are that useful). The are more options than that for notational system bases in 7-limit, some of them don't work with MOS scales. Names like "septimal" minor or "harmonic seventh" are super misleading, because in some cases that's not what these intervals will represent.

[@nickcarter4006]

4:10 - "Dr Sevish to the Operating Room, calling Dr Sevish"

[@JLMoriart]

"Scalpel!... Chroma!!! I NEED TRITAVE SUB BASE IN HERE STAT"

[@wizard1370]

Looks like a good video

[@nicolaipulley4398]

Hey, great video, good thoughts on notating with pentatonic scales. I personally like the idea of using the lines for the notes, with spaces to replace accidentals. There's always the option of just having accidentals for more than 1 set of accidentals, though, but either way, that's how I think of it

[@JLMoriart]

Hey James, that's a neat idea, thanks for your thoughts! How would you go about notating "double-sharps" and "double flats" in that kind of system? And how would you tell the difference between, say, D# and Eb? (Which would be the space between both notes.) Is that what you're talking about when you say "There's always the option of just having accidentals for more than 1 set of accidentals, though"? I didn't quite follow that part.

[@nicolaipulley4398]

@@JLMoriart Well, let's have an example. Let's say I want to go chromatically in 19EDO with a pentatonic scale. Assuming the 1st space is Db, I could write a note on the bottom line, and next I can write a sharp on it to represent the interval between the line & space. Then, I can again write the same note with a double sharp to represent the space. I would make a photo of this, but I'm on my way to eat some food 😅

[@bulletinboardoflife]

su perb! what is the background music used at beginning and end?

[@JLMoriart]

Thanks =) The background music is just one of Alchemy's arpeggiators seeded with different pentatonic scales. (It ends up sounding notes outside of the pentatonic scales being used to trigger it though.)