Can You Ordain If You're Gay?

Donate by PayPal - www.paypal.com...
My Patreon page - www.patreon.co...
LETTERS TO A DEAD FRIEND ABOUT ZEN audiobook - www.audible.co...
My other audiobooks - www.audible.co...
My blog - hardcorezen.info
Write me at [e-mail]

[@accademiaoscura7870]

Yes of course you can. The ranks of western Zen teachers & zen priests are packed with gay & lgbt people. Given that American Zen follows the Japanese tradition of priests being able to marry, one’s sexual identity should have zero impact of one’s ordination as a zen priest. (Provided one recognizes that being a Zen priest entails a focus on practice & being a practitioner role model)

[@annaewilliams1523]

As a queer women and Buddhist practitioner, cutting through this all, it could be expressed as someone obsessed and attached to sexual pleasure. My teacher more then once has reminded me the problem isn’t about joy or taking joy, it’s getting attached to it and seeking that out again and again then practicing. A Tanto in California resident program said when speaking with him about the Sex percept, and if you killing sex, then your not practicing not killing and using your celibacy to make a division and judge others, again breaking another precept. So my answer, if your going to have sex then it needs to be co mutual and respectful, if you enter a place that says celibacy here, then your not respecting the rules, just as if you forced yourself onto a person whom says no. So being queer isn’t wrong, or I don’t feel that as a Buddhist practitioner, it’s respecting the moment, right now I’m celibate but I know it could change and that’s okay, but-and those whom do have sex for love or are responsible with their partners, fantastic. But more so, I’ve met several queer Buddhist and Rosshi, so in Zen I suppose, from my experience, the answer is Yes!

[@Teller3448]

Joy is not the same as pleasure....and pleasure cannot be experienced without attachment.

[@FrequentHandleChanger]

I appreciate your comment. Thank you.

[@accademiaoscura7870]

One might just as well ask: “can a heterosexual ordain?” Or better yet: “Can anyone who is not celibate ordain?”

[@hammersaw3135]

Lol your dog at the end made my dogs all turn head with his little woof. This reminds me of the John Lennon song "they keep you doped with religion and sex and TV, and you think you're so clever and classless and free"

[@taigenetsudo4273]

😂 at some zen centers its almost a prerequisite for entry 😅

[@wordscapes5690]

Ah yes, let’s perpetuate the American myth of these people taking over the world. 😡

[@accademiaoscura7870]

The only real issue I see regarding this topic is that a great deal of lgbt culture, particularly gay male culture is very much focused on Sex and heavily identifying with sexuality as one's principal identity, often leading to a kind of sex addiction. Obviously, this type of hyper sexualized identity is pretty superficial and not at all in accord with Buddhist teaching... So all I'd say is that gay Buddhists, especially gay male Buddhists, need to be very clear about re-organizing their priorities in such a way that they keep these social pressures under control, if they choose to Ordain (I say this as an "Out" Gay Man)..... because honestly, ordaining is great, but if you're regularly attending all night rave sex parties......that's not really compatible with being an ordained Zen priest. Lol... I mean, unless you're only at the rave for the purposes of teaching Zen and saving all beings.😂

[@RC-qf3mp]

The answer to every yes/no Zen question is to answer it as both yes and no and neither yes nor no. You’re welcome.

[@CryptoTonight9393]

The zen quantum superposition

[@zfid]

​@@CryptoTonight9393ding

[@BudoJoksimovic]

PTS stands for post-traumatic stress. In the context of Buddhadharma, it can happen when you read too many Pali texts while listening to Nancy Sinatra.

[@humberthumbertson1551]

Hey everyone. The word homosexual was first used by Karl Maria Kertbeny in 1869. It began quite late in history to see homosexuality as a stable identity or form of charakter, before it was more seen as (unmoral) acts. That also means the identity of being heterosexual developed around that time too limiting same sex tenderness and intimacy in non-homosexuals.

[@HardcoreZen]

Thank you! I guess I remembered the name "Maria" and assumed it was a woman who came up with the term.

[@accademiaoscura7870]

The fact that the word was first used in 1869, simply means that it was identified and named at that time. It does not mean it didn’t exist prior. As is well documented, what we call homosexuality & Lesbianism has existed in many cultures through the world, and as far back as ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, & Greece. The earliest written story, the Epic of Gilgamesh, is essentially a homosexual love story, and a tomb of a male couple has been excavated in Egypt, so it’s fair to assume their were committed gay couples even then… regardless of when term “homosexual” was first used.

[@HardcoreZen]

@@accademiaoscura7870 There probably were committed gay couples throughout history. It's just that making a linguistic designation "homosexual" fundamentally changed how people thought of themselves.

[@bushikciwa]

Those Sanskrit commentaries are very interesting

[@andrewmendez299]

PTS means Pali Text Society

[@HardcoreZen]

Oh! Y'know, as I was talking I kinda thought that might be what it meant! Thank you!

[@benhorner8430]

So weird, add dictionary, and it's PTSD. :)

[@Meoooweww]

Doesn't the eastern dharma teach that sexual confusion in ones life is due to past life sexual misconduct?

[@BookSales-y4e]

Your wife is very good looking. Kudos to you Brad, I wish you all the Best.

[@rodrigoavaria7375]

Isn't then a pandaka a lustful person? If desires are inexhaustible and we vow to put an end to them; then lust can't be into an ordeinhood, it wouldn't matter what the embodiment of its object of desire/lust is. Although, only a sith deals in absolutes (even if that's an absolute in its self)

[@Teller3448]

You're right of course...but logic takes a back seat to popularity in our culture. Truth is whatever is popular this month.

[@kevindole1284]

Of all the American English words that spring to mind "freak" seems the most appropriate. As in the Rick James song.

[@AirSandFire]

brad ur gay and no amount of shikantaza will wash away ur gayness!

[@benhorner8430]

It's so cool that all kinds are represented here. :)

[@BudoJoksimovic]

🤣

[@xpaulyxable]

Fact

[@smoothrenunciation]

is that a mountain lion behind you at 2:35 ?

[@CryptoTonight9393]

Pretty sure it's just a cat. Well hoping so. Like I dont think it's all that far away but the scale of it is really hard to tell

[@robertyorga]

Yikes, that was a lion, or a lynx, or something.

[@HardcoreZen]

Oh my gosh! What WAS that?

[@smoothrenunciation]

@@HardcoreZen I know! I thought you may have said it was a neighborhood cat.

[@John-uw7wd]

Where was Ziggy in the hour of need!

[@batbite_]

What about trans and nonbinary people though?

[@benhorner8430]

They're still people too, just like everyone else right?

[@t.c.bramblett617]

they are human beings

[@batbite_]

@@benhorner8430 I hope I am 😳 But I know there has been some controversy about this - one woman detransitioning before she was allowed to become a monk.

[@benhorner8430]

@@batbite_ There's no need for controversy. :) In my opinion, there's no need for transitioning, or detransitioning. People can do what they want. For myself, if there was something I wanted to do (that doesn't hurt anyone else), and an organization I liked was against it... I don't know, things would just balance out. For that woman, I guess the organization was more important than the transition? I'm kinda surprised by that choice though. For me, I think of organizations as temporary, and arbitrary... (but they do also cause some kind of stability).

[@humberthumbertson1551]

The Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra, one of the most famous Mahayana sutras, touches the topic of sex/gender and the capacity for awakening in one chapter. It’s mainly about a smart ass Buddhist lay practitioner turning sick in order to get visited by Buddha. Buddha asks all the bodhisattvas to visit him who decline because their understanding of the teachings was ridiculed by Vimalakirti's superior understanding on former occasions. In chapter 7 a goddess shows up which has been abiding in the house of Vimalakirti for quite some time and engages in conversation with Shariputra, who’s standing here for monks clinging to a narrow understanding of the teachings. He asks her: „Goddess, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?“ There is the understanding in some of Buddhist tradition, that women need to be reborn as males to attain the capacity for enlightenment which is basically sexist bullshit not in accord with the core teaching of emptiness or Shunyata and that of dependent co-arising and the interpenetration of all phenomena. So the goddess turns Shariputra’s form into hers and vice versa and asks him to transform out of it. The Sutra then says: „And Shariputra, transformed into the goddess, replied, "I no longer appear in the form of a male! My body has changed into the body of a woman! I do not know what to transform!" The goddess continued, "If the elder could again change out of the female state, then all women could also change out of their female states. All women appear in the form of women in just the same way as the elder appears in the form of a woman. While they are not women in reality, they appear in the form of women. With this in mind, the Buddha said, 'In all things, there is neither male nor female.‘““ So Buddhist teachings state that there is no own-being and this Sutra states explicitly that sex/gender has no own-being, no independent reality in itself. It is also just a relational phenomena and empty. The teachings encourage us to shed our concepts of sexual identity and meet each other with compassion in our own unique relation to one another no matter the form of our bodies and hearts in the felt presence of the moment. It encourages us to not limit ourselves and others because of sex and gender but rather to free us from such delusions. Fundamentally there’s nothing wrong with us queers. :o) Surely there might be Buddhist Sanghas or teachers who refrain from ordaining trans* and nonbinary practitioners. But you can feel supported and empowered by the teaching on your path. And there are Sanghas who welcome you no matter what.

[@thomasj.loebel9809]

Or De a IN?

[@humberthumbertson1551]

Also Kodo Nishimura is a great example for being a gay buddhist monk in Japan. There is a NHK report about him on youtube: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rnOmXmaweceMa9U

[@Teller3448]

"a great example for being a gay buddhist monk" But is he a great example of a Buddhist monk?

[@humberthumbertson1551]

​@@Teller3448 Well, this is a question you need to answer for yourself, as it is very personal, what inspires us. To me he seems very sincere and follows his innermost request in showing up with his heart's ways. He touches and inspires people to do the same in their regard. And he does this very upright and gets support and affirmation by the Jōdo Shū lineage he is ordained in for actualizing Buddhist teachings by just living them. That speaks of a lot of integrity I personally find inspiring.

[@Teller3448]

@@humberthumbertson1551 I watched the whole video. He just wants to sacrifice universal Buddhist values for his own personal preferences...and says so explicitly. That's precisely how Buddhism is destroyed.

[@humberthumbertson1551]

​@@Teller3448 It’s great that you have watched the whole video even though all in all you don’t agree with its content or message! I don’t know which values you are referring to but indeed it is very delicate issue to engage in changing the face or forms of Buddhism without tossing valuable traditions over board. And we all fail again and again even with good intentions. But Buddhism isn’t a premade religion revealed by a god or so, it’s something one discovers in one’s own life and brings into existence by living its practices together. So it needs our participation and will change by that. The teacher I’m practicing with was asking one of the main teachers at Eiheiji some years ago while visiting the temple what we as Western practitioners should be careful about while adopting the Zen traditions. Part of his answer was that Zen needs to change in order to stay Zen. And Kodo Nishimaru finds support by his lineage holders, he doesn’t break with them. So I guess at least in Japan as an Asian culture with centuries of Buddhist tradition there is quite some acknowledgment for the need of transforming Buddhism for it to stay alive.

[@Teller3448]

@@humberthumbertson1551 "But Buddhism isn’t a premade religion revealed by a god or so, it’s something one discovers in one’s own life and brings into existence by living its practices together." Truth isnt something one brings into existence, nor does it change from year to year or person to person. Truth is something one aligns oneself to. Truth doesn't conform to personal preferences...persons conform themselves to truth. This is what gives it longevity...like the roots of an ancient tree. Leaves comes and go, fruit falls to the ground, branches sway and break in the wind...but the root remains stable. And in the case of Buddhist truth that does not involve displays of vanity like obsessing over cosmetics, wearing high heels and dressing up in garish outfits.

[@miguelmiranda2865]

Wut?!

[@Teller3448]

A better question would be...is a gay person capable of awakening or enlightenment. Ordination is just a religious gesture...having nothing to do with the skin flesh bones and marrow of truth. The closer one gets the less identification there is with any kind of pride or sexual desire...never mind gay-pride.

[@zfid]

Yup..

[@bennigan88]

Bone-astics

[@HardcoreZen]

That's what they would have become if they'd let the pandakas join!

[@wordscapes5690]

You westerners, always fretting about non issues.