Can You Outshoot an FBI Agent? [Part 2: 1980s]

[@SnellSr]

The position behind the fireplug at 0:16 was taken at the Atlantic City, NJ PD Range in about 1975. Our director of training developed a course of fire using cover generally found on the streets. This was one example. Taken the same day, I have a picture of me behind a USPS mailbox (a surprisingly good barrier against most common handgun rounds). Good memories!

[@strider8933]

Sweet! Semper Fi Brother!

[@bebop_557]

I've been told similar about office buildings (when I was doing GSOC work at a critical facility). Filing cabinets were pointed out as being able to stop a lot of common handgun rounds because of all the stacks of paper commonly inside of them. We were told that we likely wouldn't be using them as cover but they would be a good backstop. Interesting to hear it dates this far back, I didn't realize it went back to the 70s.

[@strider8933]

@@bebop_557 I started as a cop in the mid 80's, were trained that book shelves (from the side), mailboxes, dumpsters, filing cabinets, etc., were good cover. This was taught way before my time.

[@bvoyelr]

"It's my video and I can do what I want." Bringing the big beard energy there. I love it!

[@LuckyGunner]

And don’t you forget it!

[@BR549-2]

The longer the beard the higher your bullet's velocity. 😂

[@michaelpage4199]

This brought back so many memories. I took first place with a smith model 10 duty revolver in the 1985 FBI combat shoot. Loved it.

[@onpsxmember]

Did you still have the 50 yards stage? edit: typo

[@rmp5s]

This is so cool. LOVE this series!! Do more agencies and departments!!!

[@LuckyGunner]

I might tackle it someday, but it would be difficult to give other agencies the same kind of treatment. The FBI stuff is fairly well documented, particularly details on techniques and equipment, and even some of the reasoning behind them. They were disseminating this information to local PDs that looked to the FBI as an example, so there’s more of that kind of thing in writing from previous eras. I could probably do something similar for the Army quals, or maybe some of the other military branches, but other federal agencies would take a good deal of digging to get any of the background info beyond the actual courses of fire.

[@rmp5s]

@@LuckyGunner Yea, could be tricky to get some detailed info, for sure. I know a fair bit of the federal air Marshal info is out there...the test itself (which is about the hardest I've ever seen, as it should be) and the equipment used (P229 last I heard), and you may be able to acquire some department's training and testing procedures, but beyond that, yea...could be tough. I could probably get you the official details on the USMC rifle qual...I'm a Marine and could tell you what I remember but I don't remember all the details. If you're interested on doing rifle/military quals, let me know. I still know people in. Would introduce a new set of problems for you, like finding a 500yd KD range, but a USMC vs Army vs etc etc series would be awesome! Need a hand finding info or whatever, let me know. Happy to help.

[@LFDNC]

He’ll never be able to do the atf. I’m pretty sure there would be an issue with the dog portion.

[@rmp5s]

@@LFDNC 🤣...maybe sub one of Ballistic Dummy Lab's little bunny rabbits in for a stand-in? Hahaha

[@LFDNC]

@@rmp5s only if there are Monty Python references.

[@seraph045]

Loving this series. The only thing that would make it better would be to ditch the flannel in favor of period correct outfits. You’d look great in a Miami Vice-era pastel suit.

[@jic1]

Yeah, but half the thing about _Miami Vice_ was that they weren't supposed to dress like cops so they'd blend in better with the high-end drug dealers they were after. What he's wearing on the range isn't a whole lot different than what they were wearing in the period photos, and I think if he added a tie and a sports jacket to what he's wearing in the studio, he'd fit in just fine in the '80s FBI.

[@JRA5502]

Chris, the second course you shot was adopted and used into the mid 2000’s by the Indiana State Police. That agency transitioned from revolvers to the Beretta 92G in 1989, and since very few agencies had semi-autos, they used that course for department qualifications. Thanks for the great video.

[@LYLEWOLD]

Nice to see you run the P239. Your video on that gun is the reason I own 3 of them (2 9s, 1 357 Sig - Saw they were still on CA Roster, figured they wouldn't be for long, snapped up what I could at the time). Looking forward to part 3.

[@lardomcfarty9866]

I love that gun. My first high quality pistol. I had the tactical model in 9mm.

[@LYLEWOLD]

@@lardomcfarty9866 Nice.

[@Mario-fo6zw]

The most value arm to combat the bad guy is the training! Always well trained!

[@mikeks8181]

HRFUNK Did all 50 state qualifications Course! NO I don't think I could do The FBI and the State Courses Without More training! Thank You for sharing this Information

[@ianmuller2769]

C'mon! You're gunna make us wait until the next one to talk abouy the 10mm "disaster"!? This is a really great series. I am definitely going to try to work it with my Ruger Security Six.

[@fattigla]

Love seeing the P239 show up in content!

[@paleoph6168]

1:38 Seems you already took the course back then, Chris. 2:29 Hickok45?!

[@dougkrultz2149]

looks more like Jerry mclick

[@alancranford3398]

I'm fortunate to have a copy of Bill Vanderpool's book. I'm looking forward to the 2019 course next week. This has been fun.

[@greg9076]

I’ve got a 226 and a 228 from 1992, made in West Germany. I’ll have to get them out for this! Thanks for this series!

[@jic1]

They were still marking them with West Germany in 1992?

[@buddha48264]

@@jic1 : W German companies were allowed to use the rollmark post unification until 1995 so as to keep the reputation of E German manufacturing from hurting sales.

[@jic1]

@@buddha48264 That makes sense. I'm old enough to remember when East German industry was closely linked in most people's minds with the Trabant.

[@wretchedmess]

Interesting about the mandated revolver reloading from loose rounds. You'd have to shoot much faster, as reloads took much longer. I wish you'd have tried their reload standard, so we could see what your score would actually have been. A 75% passing score might be a lot more challenging to achieve with the loose round reloads...

[@LuckyGunner]

In the 1940s test, the reloads were taking me around 17-20 seconds. I could probably get that down to 15 seconds consistently with a little practice. I would likely save my one speed loader reload for phase II or III. There’s enough time on phase I to load from a pocket, but it would get pretty spicy on the later parts.

[@wretchedmess]

@@LuckyGunner Thx for the answer! Sure be a bear with bullets flying both ways! I have a 3" Model 65 that I absolutely love, but revolver reloads are sure slower...

[@chrisphillips490]

Great job 🎉

[@jfbft5007]

Pulling with the weak hand is not necessarily a nonsense, when it comes to personnel intended to intervene and therefore likely to be injured, sometimes in the right arm. So being able to shoot low side can be life-saving. When I was serving with the Republican Guard, which provides part of the security of the Elysee Palace, I also learned to reload and re-arm my MAC50 pistol with one hand (sometimes the empty magazine retainer may have a weakness...) , I have never had to use this technique, but it is not useless... Raymond Sasia, bodyguard of General De Gaule had, after an internship at Quantico, FBI Academy, written a very good book on the shooting techniques of the FBI at the time.

[@joshuabessire9169]

Mr Harrell had his own thoughts on the 1980s FBI...

[@strider8933]

Yup! Did so in the 80's a a National Academy grad (with a Smith model 10). Used the course Per policy to teach new LEO recruits, and still (40 years later) shoot it (updated), under shortened time standards , as part of my class qual.

[@jzargo7443]

Loving this series. Any plans to do a video on the Taurus toro 327? An optics ready .327 3" revolver with a bobbed hammer sounds like it was made for you

[@LuckyGunner]

Maybe. It’s a cool gun, but it’s not much different from the 856 TORO I reviewed last year, so I wouldn’t have a ton to say about it

[@jzargo7443]

@@LuckyGunner thats fair

[@M.M.83-U]

This serie is excellent; so many ideas for a fun trip to the range.

[@JimYeats]

Do the ATF training course! 1. Sniper-on-the-ridge 2. Fire starting 101 3. Dog? What dog? 4. No-knock hide and seek with a gun

[@MiamiVice.]

Those are informal courses. They don't need formal, structured courses for those. They prefer to get that training in during the real thing, with large multi-agency involvement so all parties can see how it's done.

[@JimYeats]

@@MiamiVice. You’re right. Nothing is better than on-the-fly real world training.

[@ShredderSensei]

Paul Harrell’s video on the FBI Miami shootout is unprecedented quality in the guntube sphere

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

This is my era. The training and course of fire is far more comprehensive than anything we had to do. I learned on a Hi-Power so the DA parts wouldn't have been relevant but at least no one ever expected us to reload with loose rounds.

[@kevinm5177]

Great video, I really like this series

[@rays.5764]

Next see if you can pass a qualification test with a 10 mm.

[@thatoneotherotherguy]

Agreed. Everyone would want to see that. When I think FBI and firearms, I think "1986 shootout" and "10mm"

[@casefarley5744]

Really enjoying this series.

[@jamesclark6427]

I love trying out old revolver era training techniques. Gives me a chance to use the massive amount of vintage gunleather I've piled up. 😛 Police duty belt holsters, crossdraw rigs, spring frame and split front upside down shoulder rigs, cartridge loop carriers and dump pouches, split six speedloader carriers, etc. Some of the techniques seem odd now, like the deep crouch with the offside arm positioned over the chest. To hopefully deflect or slow incoming bullets! 😳 Others still really work. The Fairbairn, Applegate and Jordan techniques have all worked extremely well for me. As may be apparent, I'm still devoted to the revolver as a primary gun. Though I use plenty of autos as well. But there's no comparison in mechanical reliability. I've been in the firearms industry for many years, fired over 10,000 individual handguns personally, and only ever seen three malfunctions of high quality revolvers that took the gun out of action. One from a defective cartridge with a cracked case, one from a part failure due to the use of heavy loads (not by me), and one in a S&W J-frame with the later type MIM internal parts. Which are most definitely not as good as the original style parts no matter what anyone might claim. The double action sear spring mysteriously became unseated during firing, disengaging the trigger from moving the hammer. It was a new condition gun with the original owner. No explanation for that. By contrast, the malfunctions of autos are legion and number in the thousands, with guns from all of the world's best gunmakers. There is no comparison between the reliability of the revolver and the auto. One is as close to infallible as a mechanical device gets, the other is not. And that's the way it is...

[@glockparaastra]

Looking forward to the next one! I need to give these a try.

[@tjcaudill4776]

Don't comment much on YT videos. People are annoying online. Just wanted to say I appreciate this channel for its gun knowledge and non-political BS. Thanks for the content, Chris. I made sure to grab some ammo from Lucky Gunner as my thanks. Order came quick and I was able to go to the range in the same week.

[@stevenkennedy4130]

Outstanding! Good job, Mr Baker!!

[@jic1]

Special Agent Ned Flanders in the thumbnail.

[@jeffcaldwell2991]

Mr. Vanderpool's book is excellent. I recommended it highly.

[@tomb6269]

The courses we used at out Sheriff's Department in the late "70's" and early "80's". I still find myself using the Weaver stance.

[@frankhinkle5772]

Thanks, that was very interesting. This era was the first third of my career as a LEO and there is some similarity in the skills my agency was testing to what the FBI was looking for. We adopted the Weaver stance much sooner, in the mid '70s. We were a uniformed agency, and our qualification course stressed reloading from the speedloaders. We did some training using weak-side barricade, which none of us were good at. One time I did have to confront a suspect who we thought was armed. My tactical approach to flank him was awesome, to protect other deputies as they approached from a different direction... but it left me exactly in my least favorite, weak-side barricade But to protect the other deputies that was my best choice.

[@Mrgunsngear]

🇺🇸

[@marlowek1936]

You deserve more followers dude. The content you put out is awesome and its always a treat when you upload!

[@klintonwheeler7136]

Great series

[@MLoges86]

Great vid 👌

[@rodneyalaking8241]

The load for the Model 13 was 38 plus P 158 grain lead semi wadcutter hollow point. Kind of a mouthful 😅.

[@shooterqqqq]

Low ready means low. It's down to the 45 degree angle to the ground. Thank you for the video.

[@mrcnorth7149]

I wonder if the 'must use' your non dominant hand came from issues like the miami shootout in the 80's

[@LuckyGunner]

The weak hand only stage at 5 yards may have been influenced by Miami. Shooting weak hand around the barricade goes back to the 1940s, with the supposed reasoning that you exposed less of your body around cover.

[@mariustresorus942]

Excellent, I’m going to try it.

[@fmyles3]

"Can you outshoot an fbi agent?" I think we'll find out soon.

[@pyeitme508]

Maybe!

[@rbm6184]

You said it yourself, "When they showed the agent, Weaver, no matter how long they had been using the old techniques, their shooting immediately improved both in accuracy and in speed." I use Chapman or modified Weaver. Isosceles squaring up on the target exposes more body target space to a threat making yourself a bigger target and it does not afford stable balance that a back leg does. Weight distribution and balance are critical in the martial arts. Its one of the first things taught. Going from Lohan form Kung Fu with the braced back leg to Weaver shooting was a no-brainer for me so I could never understand those that used Isosceles squared up where I could just push them over backward with one hand and they made a big target. By the way, you will see the internet say that Lohan is Buddhist but it is not. Earliest Lohan Shaolin were Taoists. After the first Shaolin were destroyed by Chinese imperial dynasties they were taken over by Buddhists after the Taoists were all dead. Another good law enforcement qualification video. Good series. Thanks for sharing.

[@bassbyrdtx]

Cool, an old-school p239! Mine’s in 357 Sig :) It does get carried occasionally.

[@FoxtrotFleet]

He has a video dedicated to it you may be interested in.

[@bassbyrdtx]

@@FoxtrotFleet yep, I’ve seen it.

[@carloparisi9945]

Hi Chris, the first course looks very much like a competition course, the second could push a bit more on one handed shooting, imo.

[@brycet6866]

Im going to try this , mostly because I have a model 13 .

[@rodneyalaking8241]

Nice.

[@thinman8621]

Good video. Will Chris show up in some kind of LE uniform in the next video? He looks qualified.

[@oddrocket2743]

Very interesting. The 1980's pistol course seems like a very reasonable course except that the target is way too big, so the standard for accuracy is a little low. Would like to see you review the USMC 1990's and 2000's pistol course and the new CPP pistol course to see what you think and how it compares.

[@YellowHammer26]

👍👍great job, appreciate the video

[@wubaru]

Depends, are dog targets involved?

[@abcarson]

More agencies, I agree with others below. Check out the Air Marshal's Qual. Short times.

[@seethebutter]

Thanks

[@danielmacdonald8358]

Good video

[@mr_evil_overlord5]

Probably and you can mag dump and reload faster with more volume per reload.

[@andrewfox5663]

9:03 What type of ammo is that? I've heard of 1911s that shoot 38 Special wadcutters, but never any cartridges that look like that.

[@americanpatriot477]

There also was a major difference between the men of the 40’s and what men think they are nowadays!!

[@unclefreedom213]

the same knee is weird should be kneeling right knee on left side and vice versa. The though is you eat a round your posted leg will make you fall back behind cover

[@kirkmooneyham]

Lucky Gunner's shipping is lighting fast. Also, I appreciate their live inventory system, I HATE looking for ammo online only to see the words "out of stock" again and again. If your company doesn't have it in stock, TAKE THE LISTING DOWN until you do have it in stock. Otherwise, you're just wasting my time and making me not want to to business with you. Lucky Gunner does it right.

[@atkinsjoe5754]

I did at thunder ranch

[@zen-Tii]

Where does Chris get those cool Seattle hipster shirts?

[@LuckyGunner]

Is LL Bean “hipster” now?

[@jic1]

@@LuckyGunner Wait long enough, and pretty much anything comes back. Speaking of which, it's the first time I've seen "hipster" for about ten years...

[@BlakeHouse-j3u]

Hey ! Good old Boys were wearing flannel shirts long before hipsters tried to copy us .

[@rodvan-zeller6360]

At 0:31 how many hours of dry firing in front of a mirror, and how many hours of live firing, before you tested? Thank you in advance for your answer.

[@beep-beep]

Hmm. I think the algorithm is trying to tell me something but I can’t put my finger on it…

[@brassmonkey7566]

Why does that guy with the author...looks a lot like a bald Chris...time traveling trainer....😅

[@LuckyGunner]

That bald gentleman is Ken Hackathorn

[@paleoph6168]

​@@LuckyGunnerthat's *the* Ken Hackathorn?! Wow.

[@elimorris2273]

The reason they stood that way is because if you watch you'll see it yourself.It's becauyes when you're being shot at standing straight up and presenting yourself.As a flat target is not the way to go

[@doejohn8674]

Do you have a PDF for the course like last time?

[@LuckyGunner]

It’s not quite like the one from last time, but I’ve got a PDF I’ll upload later

[@doejohn8674]

@@LuckyGunnerGreat, thanks!

[@LuckyGunner]

Just updated the video description with a link to the PDF

[@Timari_XXL]

🇳 🇮 🇨 🇪! 🎯

[@CyberTankMan]

👍

[@dfl19034]

Is there a link for the FBI Bulletin for the 1980s shooting qualifications?

[@jic1]

He said in a reply to another comment that he has a PDF he'll upload later.

[@LuckyGunner]

I just updated the video description to include a link to a PDF. There are several courses in this one. The Revolver Qualification Course is on page 11.

[@dfl19034]

@@LuckyGunner Thanks for the revolver course. Will the semi-auto course link be available at any time? I really do appreciate this excellent series.

[@archimagirus_sancti]

Wait... nobody at LG has a 226 or old Smith? Wow

[@steveelrino1339]

I don't like how people assume our predecessors were ignorant and unenlightened like us today. But how on earth did the hip shooting ever be doctrine? Its like did someone suggest it as a joke and their boss love the idea so they ran with it?

[@JJ-ki6sv]

You're skipping the course before 2019! That was done for years. The 2019 course is ... intentionally easier, lowering standards and all. You should also do the FBI SWAT qual.

[@davidnicholas7516]

I'd guess that the barrier with your non-dominant hand business has something to do with the fact that you might be shooting around something more substantial than a car or whatever. If you're shooting around a building while someone's shooting at you, the bureau might have been thinking they'd want you under cover. If you shot around a barrier with your dominant hand, you might expose more of yourself than if you used the other hand. I think the difference is probably marginal, but you can see the logic if you think about it...

[@astang1072]

Agreed how irrelevant transitioning a pistol to non-dominant would be. There’s no context where you will be doing that when you hadn’t been shot in your dominant arm, and there’d be nothing clean about that transition, in that case you’d be lucky to not be picking the bloody gun up off the ground. So I don’t see the point in practicing that transition under time.

[@BROCKUPPERCUT]

without watching the video i would say yes . yes i can , but thats with 21 years in the military

[@RoadTraveler]

Bump

[@DavidBrown-it9ig]

😂Id say these days yes

[@jacobstaten2366]

I'll never understand non ambidextrous people.

[@bblwarrantydepartment981]

Thanks for keeping the politics out of it. The government wants us divided. At this point I am a single issue voter Shall not be infringed!

[@zen-Tii]

You should keep politics to yourself as well.

[@WinterInTheForest]

Vote harder

[@rbm6184]

@bblwarrantydepartment981 If you vote for one Constitutional right of freedom over government slavery you vote for all of the Bill of Rights. Freedom always comes before party.

[@kiloalphasierra]

What kind of wimp thinks .357 Magnum out of a K-frame has heavy recoil?

[@alexmoore1506]

Almost like people’s bodies are different

[@teddy2guns404]

you can they are super pogs

[@dalechambers5234]

unfortunately their deadliest weapon these days is their armor piercing corruption!!

[@AstraL1zard]

Couldn’t be too hard

[@greggullett1272]

Algorithm offering here

[@RoadTraveler]

Algorithm

[@peterrussell798]

Efrim Zimbalist Jr. probably aced this revolver course. 😆

[@rodneyalaking8241]

Dude shot revolvers like a boss! Didn’t matter if bad guys were 50 yards away, either.

[@markcmann]

Still waiting for Lucky Gunner to lift the restriction of shipping to California, there are many other online retailers who do, you are losing revenue from many 2A friendly customers in California. Now let the “why not move…” comments begin.

[@shanillramos8812]

🎱😷🍕🥃👽

[@Zundfolge]

"Can you outshoot an FBI agent?" Sadly the way things are going in this country I fear many of us are going to learn the answer to this question the hard way.

[@rbm6184]

@Zundfolge Gun club members who have shot changing courses of fire in matches month after month scared local law enforcement. The Sheriff department deputies often visit gun club matches and have said they were outclassed. Haha. Actual words were, "We don't want to have to go up against you guys." That was the way it was for us back when I shot gun club matches.

[@WinterInTheForest]

Today the FBI marches in pride parades

[@popinfresh3088]

Interesting, but using revolvers for anything is obsolete. Revolvers are obsolete! Like drinking vodka mixed with your fountain mountain dew and thinking that nobody can tell! Obviously

[@garytellep5392]

Preface your video with some facts. In their beginnings the FBI weren't even armed. The modern FBI (1950s to present) aren't street cops despite Hollywood myth and they seldom get involved in shoot outs very often. Compare their officer involved shootings to city & state cops. Considering how much authority they had/still have, on the subject they failed miserably both with both tactics and lethality in Miami in 1986 (a pivotal FBI event) and with another earlier equally tragic event/ outcome by local cops this time in California (Newall Incident. 1970) became the basis for officer training for 50+ years. The "Officer Safety" mindset was born out of Newhall. Remember too that in a real world shooting scenario your accuracy is generally compromised by 25%+. Add that to the FBIs 30% miss ratio allowance back then, we are talking a 50/50 chance for any hits at all. Hit lethality is another subject altogether. Incidentally in your video range presentations YOU NEVER, take your eyes off your assailant. You reload without looking down and on most city/state courses you'd flunk the session and have to shoot IT over. You are looking down at every stage of your fire. These old shooting courses, particularly the FBIs, are "academic" drills. Courses mostly created by instructors who spent most of their careers on a firing range and not in a real world cop environment. It's taken a long time to get around this range mindset and sadly in the old days when the FBI had a lot more credibility than they do today they are a big reason why realistic shooting courses of fire lagged so far behind common sense and experience. The "milk bottle" target is a complete joke. You are provided aiming points within the squares which is totally unrealistic. Any shot on target is a "hit", apparently lethality isn't a consideration. The target most often used by city and state cops is the USPA, the A zone/lethal hits are not visibly outlined. Your audience are mostly civilians with a serious interest in defensive shooting so it would be advantageous to present facts for objectivity. Looking down loading and away from a suspect who is trying to shoot you and accepting any random "hit" as a way to stop that threat is a most excellent way to get your killed in a deadly force event. My opinions of course, 30 years LEO retired.

[@johnshepherd9676]

The course of fire I used required a combination of hits and score. You could get the right number of hits but fail on score if you were all over the target or fail on hits but make the score if most of hits were in the right place. I have seen both kinds of fails although the latter was rare.

[@antpassalacqua]

go to bed grandpa

[@johnshepherd9676]

@@antpassalacqua Mr. Tacticool speaks. Just saying.

[@454FatJack]

@@johnshepherd9676🏳️‍🌈California BB club❤

[@ColtGuthrie]

While your write-up may have some merit to it, I think you’ve missed the point of this examination of the FBI’s techniques.

[@vladvlog9677]

These techniques are backward. Horrible.

[@paleoph6168]

It's a good thing then that they are part of a course that is no longer taught.

[@vladvlog9677]

@@paleoph6168 Really? So show today's methods. Doubt much has changed.

[@jic1]

@@vladvlog9677 Well, that's what his next video in the series will be about, so we'll see.

[@paleoph6168]

​​​​@@vladvlog9677alright fair enough, the two-handed pistol grip so prolific now, starting its popularity with courses such as these. Then again, what makes these techniques backward?

[@vladvlog9677]

@@paleoph6168 Refer me to a site or link to check. Without going into it too much, these drills are pedantic and slow - devised by a bureaucratic institution.