Is Kvothe a Mary Sue? | Kingkiller Chronicle Character Analysis

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Whenever I see criticism for the Kingkiller Chronicle by Patrick Rothfuss, usually the criticisms revolve around not liking the protagonist. Kvothe is a fairly polarizing character, many love him while others claim he's too much of a 'Mary Sue'. Today I'll be doing a deep dive on this character to examine if he is indeed a Mary Sue.
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0:00 - Is Kvothe a Mary Sue?
3:38 - Sponsor
5:33 - Kvothe RPG Stats
6:41 - Kvothe's Early Life
9:06 - PTSD/Tarbean
10:13 - Frame Story
11:18 - Greek Tragedy
11:49 Unreliable Narrator
13:26 - The University
16:55 - Leaving the University/Darkness
19:29 - The Fae Realm
21:39 - Ademre
22:25 - Conclusion
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#kingkiller #kvothe #books

[@CapturedInWords]

Go to establishedtitles.com/LORDJAY and help support the channel. They are now running a massive Early Black Friday Sale, plus 10% off on any purchase with code LORDJAY. Thanks to Established Titles for sponsoring this video! Do you think Kvothe is a Mary Sue? Let me know why in the comments!

[@brettskinner1416]

Yes he is

[@kodytiffany5686]

Qvothe (thought its with a Q, to be extra confusing... its been years so maybe I remember that wrong) I consider less a Mary Sue and more a Narration device. objectively looking at his life he has had to run a lot or reinvent himself often But he is no Zhao Hai from "Bringing my farm to another world" He has flaws that are meaningful. Hes no Dark Yugi from Yugioh that literally loses only to himself.

[@alisonhill3941]

Established TItles is a scam. You do not own any land, and even if you did you wouldn't be a laird, and a laird is not just another word for lord. If you want to help global reforestation efforts, support tree-planting charities directly, not through this *scam*.

[@kodytiffany5686]

@@alisonhill3941 I do not get what part is a scam? Never bought into ET anyhow; but just curious how its a lie. Is it like becoming a renter of house vs an owner or something? Or is it not even related to owning land at all? I thought lords owned land because that was part of the description of being "knighted" or something. Never looked into it; so not sure how I am wrong.

[@alisonhill3941]

@@kodytiffany5686 You don't get any right in the land. At all. Under Scots Law. Neither a Knighthood nor a Peerage (which are unrelated to one another, and most lords are not knights; the only people who can actually call themselves Lords are Peers of the Realm, who are styled Lord Surname or Lord Title depending on the peerage, the elder sons of Dukes, Marquesses and Earls, who are by courtesy referred to and addressed by one of their father's subsidiary titles, and the younger sons of Dukes and Marquesses, who are styled Lord Firstname) has anything to do with land ownership; they are both titles granted by the Crown. Both knights and lords can be entirely landless (and historically most knights *were* landless, as they would be senior tenants of the local lord). Lairdship in Scotland *does* have a connection to land ownership (similar to Lord of the Manor in England, which is not the same thing as a Lord) but you can't just divvy up an estate with a Lairdship attached to it (which Established Titles and similar things aren't even doing, because the purchaser owns *no right* in the land in question) and thus create loads of mini-Lairdships. And having a Lairdship doesn't entitle someone to style themselves "Lord Surname " or "Lord Firstname", or indeed Lord Anything, because that's not what it is (just like in England many local landowners are Lords of the Manor but are not Lords and cannot therefore be styled as such). By giving Established Titles money you get literally nothing that you wouldn't get by donating directly to one of the charities they "work with", i.e. a tree planted in your name, except a completely false piece of paper.

[@cruidinnecluda1711]

I never even considered him being a Mary Sue on my first readthrough given the number of times I was screaming "Kvothe! What are you doing! You are supposed to be smart! Look at the mess you are going to put yourself into!" at the book and was genuinely surprised at that he was labeled as such when I went online.

[@SingingSealRiana]

many mary sues make bullshit decission, the difference is, that in his case he actualy has to suffer the consequences, instead of the world bending to accomodate him. Mary sues are not perfect, but how they stories go, they get framed that way forcably and that is so not the case with Kvothe. The whole series is about how he managed to fuck up the whole damned kingdom at least, most probably more while playing hero. It is really more sto stories structure then who he is that prevents him form beining a sue

[@cruidinnecluda1711]

@@SingingSealRiana Fair enough. I think the point of difference here is the label of Mary Sue. While I agree that a Mary Sue may not be perfect I would usually consider them to have minor or not be punished for their flaws in addition to the world revolving around them. Kvothe arrogance, temper and lack of shortsight are major flaws which cause problems for him and he does get punished. The issue is that instead of minimizing his flaws he relies hard on his gifts, his intelligence, quick wit and magical ability to reduce and in some cases reward him.

[@tonyug113]

He also has to work to gain his powers - not something a mary sue ever has to do - and disliked by many many antagonists in the story

[@StoryLoreStudio]

Agreed.

[@StoryLoreStudio]

@@SingingSealRiana Man story is tragic. He never gets the girl he’s cursed by a goddamn tree and he still hasn’t killed a Chandron after book 2 shit he can’t even leave his inn too long, the man is faulty.

[@kaliasenova8158]

My favourite proof that Kvothe is not a Mary Sue is the fact that he cheated in order to pass his first admissions exam in the University. He literally listened in to a dozen other students being examined before him and thus, he knew many of the questions they ask and their answers beforehand. Thank you so much for this video and all others! Keep up the good work!

[@cookiediangelo8511]

Ok but he listed off tens of names and facts he must have heard only once or twice in advance, the last time her heard any of this was 3 years ago, he had no way of reading ahead of time, and he still answered questions the masters hadn't asked before well enough that they weren't suspicious. I'd say that's impressive enough. Anyway, if kvoth wasn't as marry sue as he seems I'd be questioning why so many people think he's so cool in the future.

[@BruceMount-ij1hn]

Oh thank Tehlu you made this video. I get so tired of people trying to warp Kvothe into being a Mary Sue, when he is flawed beyond belief. It's clearly stated in the books that Kvothe is only good for a barbarian at fighting and that Felurian's ego was the reason she let him leave. THANK YOU for creating a video I can point people towards when they bring this up again.

[@abcarlson3293]

Mostly agree and not claiming this 1 specific scene makes Kvothe a mary sue by itself but when Felurian is 1st encountered Kvothe saying he would meet the team at the tavern in 3 days has always sat wrong with me...

[@BruceMount-ij1hn]

@@abcarlson3293 Can you expand on why that part didn't sit well with you? Is it because of Kvothe's ignorance about how time works in the Fae?

[@DodWilEcton]

I think the biggest argument against Kvothe being a Mary Sue is the foreshadowing we get that he doesn’t win, or that even if he does, this does not end well for him. A Mary Sue without a happily ever after is almost unheard of.

[@ohnoohnoohnoohnoohnoohno8737]

Im sososossoosso glad youre still making kingkiller videos! Yours are some of the best!

[@CapturedInWords]

I'm happy you enjoy them!! I still got plenty of other Kingkiller videos I want to make :D

[@leser1music]

His only skills we have proof of is that he is a respected inn keeper and a good story teller.

[@insertname5371]

Kvothe is not a mary sue literally everything he does you explicitly see him not be the best at, fail at first, or practice. Hes a bard a jack of all trades master of one.

[@CapturedInWords]

So true! I wish more people would realize that. He's clever and intelligent, but he's not wise and often messes things up or makes poor decisions. And the skills he has he's worked hard for. I'd say the only skill he's really mastered is music, and that's because he grew up with it as such a big part of his life

[@SingingSealRiana]

Even if you are the second best at everything and master of one, you are still overly talented, that a very small set of extreamly talented people are still better then him does not change that his skills usually are fare supirior then the majority of people, the sueness is strong there. What really prevents him from being a Mary sue is not fake fails to not look perfect, but that his inherent idiocy cancles all his talent out so throughfuly, that it is compleatly negated and he got nothing from it. A Mary sue is not always "perfect" what makes them bad writting is that even if they have claimed flaws, those do not effect anything, the story bends around them and takes all the consequences away. Kvothe on the other hand is truly flawed, when he fucks up, he has no failsafe, he crashes right down. Funnyly enough, it is less the writting in him, but the writing around him, that sets him apart as a brilliant trope subversion, the writting is not lazy at all

[@crowemagnum1337]

You said it for me, and possibly better.

[@shalonsmith1337]

Yes. And although he does pick up things naturally fast, and tends to be good at whatever he tries... His lack of experience at those things does normally get him into some type of trouble or cause some type of problem. To me that's interesting to see. That being naturally good at things doesn't necessarily give you the experience needed.

[@michaelxz1305]

Lack of common sense = being young

[@TennisLover82]

Kvothe is not a 'Mary Sue". While he does have many talents and learns quickly, the books have always made it clear that this has a dark flipside. It's why Kvothe almost died when being trained by Ben. His high intelligence, wit, charm and cleverness are indeed potent but it also causes him to be reckless. All throughout the story thus far, we have seen many instances where he fails to see the ramifications of his actions. Combine that with a quick temper and the stubbornness of someone who thinks he knows more than he does, and we have someone who, as Ben intimated, is quite dangerous. It's why time and again, Kvothe can't help but continue his feud with Ambrose, even when he has an opportunity to stop. It's why his sword "Folly" sits above the counter of his inn. Only now, when his actions seem to have cost him everything, does he see how his weaknesses and faults (despite his many talents) have brought both he and apparently, the world down to a very grim moment. So I agree with everything in this video. Having many talents and no weaknesses in personality, temperment, etc. would be a stronger argument but we know Kvothe's recklessness, impatience and ambition are among his worst traits. It offsets the prodigious skills he does have. There are a few quotes that seem to sum Kvothe's faults and weaknesses due to his intelligence and cleverness: "There are so many different kinds of stupidity, and cleverness is the worst" - Thomas Mann "Cleverness is not wisdom" - Euripides

[@matthewwoolley4131]

Very well put together points! Kvothe is understandably polarizing, but he absolutely isn’t perfect. He’s a vortex of talent mixed with bad decisions

[@tanakeilidh384]

Well said

[@SingingSealRiana]

like he has above avarage states over all max charisma and inteligence but it gets cancled out by 1 wisdome and a talent for making the worst decissions ever

[@CorwinFound]

I thought Kvothe as Mary Sue was a bit meta. "Let's write a Mary Sue, but see what that would *really* look like if the story was told honestly." So we have the legends of Kvothe as the Mary Sue and the current story largely being the reality. Quite clever. And I agree that the first definitive indication that he isn't a Mary Sue was how he treated Pike along with not getting all heroic when another young boy was assaulted. A Mary Sue would have turned Pike and formed an alliance to clean up the streets of Tarbean. Of course it didn't happen. Btw, please drop Establish Titles. There is good info now that they aren't on the up and up.

[@Vandylizer]

I don't think I'll ever get tired of listening to you talk about Kingkillers. Obviously it's a shame you've had to keep us entertained for so long without a Book 3 but man is it ever cool to hear all these breakdowns and theories without even knowing the ending. It'll make it all the sweeter when the final book is released (and yes I've been waiting almost ten years for it now, but I still have hope). I really hope we see how much of an anti-hero Kvothe is and see if he really does become on of the Chandrian or at the very least seal away that darkness beneath the Lethani along with his true name.

[@CorrinaMusic]

I am obsessed with this analysis - it’s spot on!! Thanks for another great video! You keep the story alive for all of us!

[@ivanhunter6492]

Kvothe ISN't a Marty Stu. He's flawed and this story is told through HIS perspective

[@tgwtom]

This is a brilliant work of art. I’ve said it before, you are incredibly talented, and your critical analysis is jaw dropping. Can’t wait to see your creativity as an author.

[@CapturedInWords]

Wow thank you, I'm happy to hear that! I'm really looking forward to when I'm ready to share more about my writing with you guys

[@jonasmartin2334]

Great video. Love the graphics!! The channel is getting better and better. Well done!

[@quitabanana3684]

This just made me love him even more. Thank you for this video!

[@joaoandrewebberdeoliveira9321]

I love your king killer videos! I am grateful for so much

[@sachamaryrotpirks4081]

Even astonished by his many gifts, I never considered Kvothe as a Mary Sue. It's perfectly clear that is a complex character, with flaws like his pride, liar, thief and more... Even though, I love him besides that 🤩

[@marcusrodger]

Great videos man. Love the details 😊

[@pablocarrillo7484]

I enjoy these so much… every time you make me want to re read the books… im like 5 rereads in already geez

[@evan8542]

This was a excellent video. You made great points that really clear up misconception about the story. Keep up the good work

[@CapturedInWords]

Much appreciated! Glad you enjoyed!

[@Blackinght11]

In my opinion, no. Kvothe is skilled, smart, but he is prideful, stubborn and arrogant. He get constantly shit on because of his choices, and he is the architect of his own downfall. I think the argument comes more from stewing with an unfinished trilogy for a decade, paired with how Kvothes general demeanor mirrors Rothfuss' own childish attitute as to when he is, if he is, releasing the third book.

[@gerardohoppe887]

Great video! I love all your kingkiller videos

[@jakersaridakis]

I love your KKC videos. Great work :)

[@flornygrob]

Just a note on his killing of the Rue Imposters - what he did was mandated by the law of their people. It wasn’t just wanton destruction. Also, a note on his use of Felurian’s true name, the imagery here is also used to describe those who wield Silmarils (“a star on his brow”).

[@randallwindleofficial8237]

You deserve more subs and views

[@ellegee4043]

I love that you bring up the piece about character stats...where he is heavy in a couple areas but severely lacking in others...perfectly describes and creates the picture of who Kvothe is. I also thought he seemed to excel and be perfect at so many things because it created a sharp contrast (as a literary technique) to his flaws and wonky moral/ethic compass hand. I will admit i'm on the bandwagon of Kvothe being an annoying brat (lol)... there are times I love him but others I can't stand him... then I remember hes between the ages 9 and 16 in NotW... thats just the nature of those ages. He had to grow up quick for many reasons, but he still has a child/teenager brain which makes adults go "what the cinnamon toast f*#k are you doing!?".

[@vaughnlewis3443]

Hey captured in the woods are we ever going to see an in-depth review of Wiseman‘s fear like you did with the name of the wind. I think it would be an awesome idea.

[@groggu]

Excellent discussion! It’s no wonder the last book is taking so long, the complexity of the story is staggering.

[@monologgue]

Excellent character analysis

[@sk8rwhezel]

Some people claim that Mary Sues know everything in order for the story to progress. I feel like a lot of people forget that his name, Kvothe, means "to learn", and we know the power and magic of names. It probably has a lot to do with his ability to learn as quickly as he does.

[@safinan8008]

Hi 👋 thank you for a good video 🎥📽⚔️ I really liked Name of the wind 💨 book by Patrick Rothfuss!! I hope his 3rd books come out soon?!!!! Happy reading to you! 😊⚔️🎥📽

[@baselsaliem3825]

Nice video as always. I have a suggestion. Can you prepare a video about life lessons we learn in kingkiller chronicles? This will hint to the importance of the book. 🙏

[@CapturedInWords]

Great idea for a video! I'll add that to my list of Kingkiller videos to make!

[@roblewis8227]

Great video. This is my fav of all of them. This is my KKC theory based of my million read throughs. So when Kvothe is in the woods after his parents slaughter, his sleeping mind takes over and he starts playing the names of things on his Lute, and that singing/playing names has president. Elodin uses blue as an example of things that can't be names and Kvothe claims to play colours to a blind man. There are several references to singing songs of power, Kvothe knows a song that opens any lock, Iax's flute etc, also it explains why Dena's patron is having her learn instruments. I think her patron is Cinder and Kvothe will attack/kill him and Dena will trick him into locking himself away. Heliax's purpose is to open the doors of stone to release Iax, he won the war/saved the world by locking him away and will destroy the world by releasing him however you need to sleep or dream to unlock the doors of stone. Cthae specifically mentions Heliax has not slept. I'm not sure about Iax being Kvothes father but to borrow a line from GRRM, nothing explains a sudden marriage like a bastard in the belly. I'm not convinced the 4 plate door is the door of stone, rather a deposit of dangerous info and the tomb of (Reman?) the Lich king. Kvothe has to gain alit of naming and shaping knowledge very quickly to have rings on his right and left hand and I think he gets it from there and learns the secret of how to copy it to create his chest. Interestingly, the chapter where Kvothe went into the underlying is called the half built houses. Also I think Kvothe will discover secrets from the room full of story knots in the library. I suspect that Arladen Brough the troop near the University to speak to Lauren about the song he was making which is why Lauren thought he was a bard but I need to look into that a bit more, mostly trying to work out where Baron Greyfallows land ends.

[@konankunoichi94]

I greatly appreciate your minmax DND character build reference, it makes me appreciate my minmax builds a little more.

[@TheEolian]

You should change the title Kvothe: A Mary Sue with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder! :)

[@guitoscano]

Kvothe is the stupidest smart person in the world. No way he’s a Mary Sue. Awesome content, by the way. Kingkiller Chronicle videos were what made me find your channel and it’s always good to see new videos, though I also love recommendations, First Law, Mistborn and Stormlight videos. Keep it up! Cheers from Brazil ;)

[@ltrigga219]

Kvothe spends a lot of time getting absolutely wrecked, not to mention having crippling and often very frustrating personality flaws. I mean the framing story lays the groundwork for what seems like will be an entirely hubristic tragedy, wrought by Kvothe’s own hand…but even in the actual narrated events of the framing story, Kvothe gets his ass kicked, frustratedly fails to call upon his magical abilities, and lets his friends get harmed (well, is helpless to prevent them from being harmed) while repeatedly lamenting the world he’s brought about by his actions. So yeah, not exactly a Mary Sue. Thank you for bringing this up and exploring the misconceptions!

[@sorenbuenneke6434]

No his downfall is completely the Cthaeh's fault. Why is no one talking about this?

[@SergioSilva1337]

Awesome video, as usual :) tho... I most point out, he doesn't actually tell people that Elodin pushed him off the roof, he just doesn't make any effort to correct it when people assumed so.

[@CapturedInWords]

Thanks! And good point, forgot that he just let that rumor spread around!

[@Ricardo34856]

I agree. To me Kvothe has his light and darkness, more like an antihero. Good video! Ps. I am very happy to watch new videos about the topic... :( But without new books, It is painful hahahah

[@trustmeiworkhere8183]

Would it be possible to get a Kvothe and Rezkin comparison video? I think they have some interesting similarities.

[@stephaniewilliams6756]

Honestly dude, yes he is a Mary Sue but that's what makes the story interesting because of the framing device of him telling his own story in an arrogant manner. It's the only story it works for, really.

[@Ali-ij8rn]

sociopath video next? love your content!

[@Haiyichshmir]

Kvothe butts heads with tons of people. He is a liar and a thief despite him constantly claiming that the Rue don’t do those things. The way Kvothe quickly gets out of his Tarbean situation throws a lot of people off. He goes from semi crazy/damaged to competent Kvothe seemingly overnight. He’s scrambles to get by but somehow always pulls through by a single day of great effort. Tarbean -> day he leaves. Tuition/Devi’s debt is too much -> plays at the Eolian and gets his talent pipes + money from Threpe and other patrons. Devi’s debt for horse -> gets Lodenstone from tinker There’s a lot of convenience that people have issue with. How he struggles so hard then seemingly overcomes said issue super quickly. But I think it’s like how Kilvin says “quickly. But not easily” But no, Kvothe is far from a Mary Sue.

[@Mwezi828]

Thanks for calling out (without calling out) the KZbinrs who misrepresented the Felurian sequence specifically and his character more generally. I'm a fan of those channels, but I think you're exactly right. If I had to define Kvothe's story in one word it would be 'struggle' (which is what makes it compelling). Yes he has all those natural talents which are an advantage, but they're weighed against disadvantages such as being born Ruh, made an orphan, and his poverty. Also, Mary Sue's don't just win without struggle - they win. Everything we see of Kvothe has to be taken in the context of the framing narrative. Even at the end of Wise Man's Fear, when he's at his most powerful and successful, we know where this leads. He is a broken man.

[@StoryLoreStudio]

Good break down.

[@simonoberholster1896]

Do you guys have any recommendations for a nice December read in the vein of the King killer chronicles?

[@johnbuxton4484]

I feel like those readers who view Kvothe as a Mary Sue have been drawn into viewing Kvothes story subjectively through his own retelling (understandable as that is a strong theme within the series) rather than looking at the actual implications of his actions within the text. Sure he takes to things very well but that is very much a double edged sword for him...

[@brettbarton2370]

I love the Bane reference!!! 8:32

[@HectorT52]

Does anyone know where to find the image from the minute 12:52? The one that looks like a chessboard, I think it would make a great kingkiller wallpaper

[@thekwjiboo]

Oh man, I just thought of something pretty crazy about the Cthaeh, and I think it warrants discussion. So, as per Bast, the Cthaeh tells people whatever it takes to cause the most damage in the world, just out of evil spite. But think of the chain of events it's set up. Iax speaks to it, which leads to him stealing the moon, which leads to the creation war, which leads to Lanre speaking to it, which leads to the Chandrian being created, which leads to Kvote speaking to it. It's set up each step so that the next person comes to speak to it, all leading to Kvote speaking to it. So is this it's endgame? Or just the next step?

[@meisterwu9219]

Honestly i´ve often overlocked the moral of Kovthe in his actions. There was nothing that I wouldnt do exactly like he did, which is quit scary. Your videos in generell really make me think about the story instead of just reading it, thank you for that.

[@SuperDoctor9]

There are plenty of things to criticise the KKC about but Kvothe being a Mary Sue is one that I've never understood. Whenever someone says this about the books it just makes me think they haven't actually read them because he fails at almost everything he tries to do and more often than not he gets himself into trouble for trying. Kvothe is talented yes but it's not as though any of his talents and skills are unearned. Kvothe is a great character and I get it if people just don't like him but he's certainly not a Mary Sue. Great video, always love some Kingkiller content!

[@madalynnr9940]

One of the 3 Kvothes is a Mary Sue, the Kvothe in the stories other people tell is a Mary Sue, The Kvothe that is telling the story is not a Mary Sue, and the Kvothe in the story told by Kvothe is embellished to emphasize the tragedy of the story kvothe is telling

[@ghazalzabihi9607]

I just noticed something in the book. in the WMF Dena asked Kvoth about a kind of magic that someone can write something and then you'll do whatever that guy wrote. Kvoth made a story like this about Chronicler. You think there is a connection? Sorry,english isn't my first language. You thing there

[@HICKENBOTTOM]

These KKC videos mean everything to me lol

[@sedatplays9753]

Kvothe is not a perfect character, though he is perfectly written.

[@GoddessoftheGalaxies]

Well said 👏

[@CapturedInWords]

Cheers to that 🥂

[@rorangarrowson5]

I agree with every word you said. It so ridiculous that people believe Kvothe is a marry sue. He is flaws belong mean. He make several mistakes. Also he study and work his ass off to get the skill he have. He constantly practicing those skills also. He don't automatically know all these skills like a Mary sue would. No he learn then from hard work. He ain't no superman characters who is just born with these skills and don't need to practice then. No he study constantly and practice constantly to keep his skills up. Also wonderful video. The editing was amazing and all the point you make were perfect. Next time I have this argument with someone I just going show then this video.

[@brushwagg7735]

He’s intentionally OP but it balances well with the stakes and the consequences. The important thing about Mart Sues is that they negate all tension as soon as they move to action.

[@baselsaliem3825]

I have an issue regarding his name. When kvothe mentions that his name is pronounced as kvothe with the letter v silent. How about that? Another question. How did denna know about naming the first time she saw kvothe? Why did she exchange names with Kvothe?

[@lexdelrosario3332]

We'll never know with finality. Because Rothfuss did another Rothfuss and broke a lot of people's hearts.

[@AllenProxmire]

I always thought Newarre was Nowhere... I just realized it could be N.E.Ware

[@maillygomes9065]

In a recent live of Patric he answer about how many lies Kvothe told to the chronist: only ONE. I’m sure thats one is very important. I will like to watch a video about a theory of which one is this lie.

[@nottheonlyjustin]

I think from how he is building himself up, and then how things panned out in the currant situation it's going to turn out to be more of the opposite. I almost wonder if he will end up being the biggest tall taler of all time. Like someone who talks a giant game, but doesn't really have the ability to back it up.

[@ravenwilder4099]

Personally, I'm reluctant to apply the Mary Sue label to characters outside of fanfiction. What defined the Mary Sue trope wasn't just the extreme flawlessness of the character or the adoration heaped upon them; it was that they were an original character created by the fanfic author, and all the efforts to make them look great and special and awesome came at the expense of the characters from the source material. People reading Star Trek fanfiction presumably want to read about the characters from Star Trek, so if you insert your own character into the fanfic who makes all the Star Trek characters look incompetent in comparison, and who draws all the attention away from them, supplanting them as the main character: of course readers are gonna be annoyed. When you have a character like that in original fiction (like The Kingkiller Chronicles), it's a very different scenario, because there's no expectation that someone else should be getting all the praise and attention lavished on Kvothe.

[@Severian1]

In my opinion, although I don't think it was intentional, he feels like a self insert, which may play into the part of the Mary Sue that is wish fulfillment, from a particularly young self assured Rothfuss. Rothfuss has obviously grown as a person considerably and cannot reconcile who he is now with who he was back then. Kvothe's moments after Felurian with all the women wanting to bone him smacks of someone who'd write that creepy blog post comparing the Hobbit to a sex worker.

[@dimvots6729]

His has the intelligence of Einstein, the voice of Freddy Mercury, the music talent of David Gilmour the charisma and looks of Brand Pit (with red hair) and all this at 17...

[@balbert24]

Kvolthe is not a Mary Sue, but he does tell a story where he wants to paint himself as a mary sue; however, if you read closer he is not. Kvolthe is a tragic character that makes a lot of mistakes and is somehow able to tell the tale

[@andreakimmel6651]

To me, one of the biggest factors in MS status is where their story fits in the overall arc. Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter are both central foundational characters at the core of their stories, same is generally true for Kvothe. But Anakin & Rey disreguard the rules and challanges that made Luke's stort work. They were more interested in measuring up to the established franchise than telling a story. You can get examples like Twilight where the author is so in love with their characters they break their own rules for their faves, but its alot less common than franchises rewriting the rules so they can be the cool new impossible thing that no one in the franchise has ever done before, (because according to the rules it wasn't possible.) That, to me, has a much bigger impact on how well I can enjoy the story. Consistent worldbuilding, especially in power and magic sustems. I like the variety of characters Kvothe meets and interacts with, and while he's abit self centered, the narrative doesn't really excuse it or pretend otherwise. (Also we're headed for tragic events eitherway.) So I like him as a character, but it's not a story I find myself wanting to read repeatedly.

[@KidIndigo1]

IMO, Kvothe (and, of course, Rothfuss) is definitely not a "Mary Sue." This guy (Kvothe/"Kote") has so far survived longer than any CMA would jump at a chance for, not least of which for his notable faults. His character (henceforth referred to as Kvothe) continues to muddle through quite a bit (at least through the first two books) with a preponderance of panache, talent, and sometimes dumb, reckless luck. I, like many, await the third novel. I'd not be surprised, at all, if, after all is said and done, that Kvothe ends up walking off relatively scot-free (except for the continued havoc he continues to create), not least of which I think it must might suit the author just fine. Or not. GREAT stuff.

[@TheDantheman12121]

This is one thing that bugs me when people say it. Kvothe is not good at everything and has plenty of flaws. If people think that Kvothe is a Mary Sue then they are basically saying that no character can be good at stuff. Kvothe is good a certain things and pursues those things. On reddit the other day I just randomly on a reply said at the end "kvothe is a not a mary sue" someone replied something like "How is he not? He is literally a powerful wizard at a young age" something like that. So stupid.

[@darren806]

Ok here's my take on the whole felurian thing. The way I always read it was that whoever felurian managed to capture would always perform like an absolute sex god and then die from exhaustion soon after meeting her. The difference is that qvothe was well trained in sympathy and naming and was simply lucky af to call her by her true name. That is the only reason he didn't end up dead from exhaustion imo, he had the right amount of luck, talent and ingenuity to survive the encounter.

[@Pvdtheking2k]

The only thing I don't like about the kingkiller books is the length of time I'm waiting for the third haha

[@ddookhar]

Love the copium! re-define what a Mary Sue is and then defend your thesis from there. Kvothe is most definitely a mary sue but with the benefit of a talented writer like Rothfuss who is able to obfuscate the trope well enough. Tragic back story? check. Unnaturally good at literally anything he tries? check. Breaks the rules and gets rewarded for it? check. Makes enemies of powerful people yet they always get thwarted cuz MC is just so GOOOOOOOOD at what they do? check. "im not like other boys/girls"? check. Incomprehensible attraction by the opposite sex? check. Unaware of how charming he is with the opposite sex and thus endearing him even more to them? check. Accelerates through the established power hierarchy despite little to no knowledge of how these systems work? check. Rothfuss obfuscates Kvothe's mary sue-ness by giving him an extended tragic backstory that we get to experience. This helps to rack up "losses" in order to counter-argue the "win all the time" criticism. Kvothe "loses" very rarely after he gets to the university and most of these actually never impede his power progression. And this is just from NotW. It's ok to love a character that is a mary sue. It's ok to get caught up in a talented writer's power fantasy. But mass producing copium to assuage that inner voice of yours that knows better? Now thats just good content!

[@Imperial_Squid]

"We don't know why he's trying to build himself this legend"... But we do though, at one point when he's being stitched up after the whipping he gets asked why and he says that it's because he needs to look strong, he learned on the streets that the best defense was looking like (or being able to) fuck up anybody who came for you, it's a trauma response... Maybe later in life it's arrogance too but not to begin with I think

[@CapturedInWords]

Very good point!

[@Imperial_Squid]

@@CapturedInWords just wanted to add that one note but fantastic video otherwise! When you skim the details it's easy to read him as a Mary Sue but if you pay attention you get so much more detail and can read it all a whole different way (which is true of the themes of the book and pat's writing as a whole!) Definitely gonna check out your other videos btw 😁👌

[@Channel-23s]

You forgot to mention Mary Sues in universe aren’t disliked and always seen as good hence why Mary Sues are hated while if you have a character with many flaws or does dark or things that moves back and forth between evil and good aka a anti hero or has losses aka Goku has loss before and died

[@charlieedmiston9839]

Until hearing you say that kvothe may not be the hero, I’d never even thought about how dark he truly is.

[@seanburke997]

He messes up a lot of things, and often hamstrings himself. And while we don't have (and may never get) the third book, it's clear that he messed up something REALLY big to cause strife and chaos across the entire land.

[@ravelrl5854]

It’s not that Kvothe isn’t flawed. The story explicitly includes a lot of his flaws, as is covered here. It’s more that the story bends to make him “godlike” regardless. Yes, he’s bad at math and alchemy, but neither of those weakeness ever come up in a meaningful way. Yes, he’s prideful and impulsive, but those flaws don’t impact how any of his posse adore him. (Even the novellas, from other characters viewpoints, fall all over themselves professing love for him.) Yes, he might literally have caused an entire war, but the story still bends over backwards to make sure we know how wonderful /amazing / incredible he is. The scene where he binds his lungs to the outside air is pointed out as a failure, but consider this. Even a scene ostensibly about one of his flaws features him performing a complicated sympathetic binding that people twice his age struggle with. The book just can’t help but continually point out how amazing he is and how much people love him, even in scenes where he should be failing - *that* is his Sue-ness.

[@matthewparker9276]

Well reasoned. Though I will point out that it isn't kvothe being an anti hero that makes him not a Mary sue, as antiheros and Mary sues often intersect, it's just all the other stuff you mentioned.

[@caewing85]

Now that I’ve finished Stormlight Archive I can start on The Name of the wind! Don’t worry-I skipped through the video so I didn’t get many spoilers. From what I’ve read, I don’t think he is a Mary sue, and I do agree he isn’t the hero.

[@powerlifting1012]

He is one of the most powerful and intelligent man during his times so of course he is gonna be a badass and pick up things easily.

[@waynewilson3971]

I think one of the only things that keep Kvothe from death is the wind.. I love how settle the Author slips in a small breeze, a gust of wind, or certain things that the wind moves in situations that would become fatal to him and how that alone gets him out alive... so if anything its the ever turning wind who is a Mary Sue.

[@Daijinthetripod]

Silly Jay, Kvothe is not a Mary Sue, Kvothe is Kvothe.

[@Laurentus]

He is constantly reminded that he is not as good as he thinks he is. Devi kicked his ass when he threatened her. He was only ever middling when he trained with the Adem, and he constantly makes the most hair-brained decisions because he is too impulsive and thoughtless. On the topic of whether he's a sociopath, I don't think he is. He genuinely cares about his friends, and will do anything for some of them, as with Auri. If he truly were a sociopath, I don't think he'd have the same sense of justice he has, either. He murdered the fake troupe because they had killed and impersonated a real Edema Rhu one, and had sexually assaulted two girls. I think that he's something far worse: a man so consumed by his grief and need for revenge that he has in effect become the very monster he hunts. He is the He Who Fights Monsters trope personified.

[@potterpal5]

Kvothe is extremely talented, but that doesn’t make him a Mary Sue. He has many flaws (very arrogant, tends to not understand other people), he struggles a lot throughout the story, and there are many things he is not good at such as fighting (by Adem standards, he is weaker than a 12 year old girl), and alchemy.

[@CapturedInWords]

I 100% agree!

[@nicodemogawronski2052]

It's possible that some readers don't like him because he sounds like the know-it-all and they cannot recognise themselves into a highly intelligent person who can do pretty much anything. It's possible that some readers struggle in life and have never been in a position of rising from their ashes like Kvothe does so many times. He is not the conventional main character that starts from being a nobody and becomes someone, the hero. We get to know pretty soon in the book that Kvothe became a hero and when he was a child was pretty much destined to be someone big. This is something that probably most people don't resonate with. I might be wrong. I loved the books and liked the character. I listened to the audiobooks a couple of times and always find them beautiful.

[@xXgonzo1991Xx]

He even said to Denna: "My bad luck got tangled up with my bad decisions, and I'm paying for it." Kind of funny that people think that he is portrait as perfekt. 1 thing i like about him is, that he is so flawed and not just perfekt, even in his own story.

[@ptactidactyl1710]

He is very much like most shonen main characters. Not the most gifted or strongest but, he is the most determined in reaching his goals. That's what attracts myself and others to characters.. relatability.

[@hulkamania5071]

i was honestly shocked when he killed the fake troupe

[@CapturedInWords]

Me too! Completely took me by surprise

[@SirBasterd]

By the time he’s 24 that aged well

[@rogeliocuza7138]

and another thin, he is only super good at killing is the convination of all his powers that makes him a killing maching, he only supershine when is time to kill

[@corgi42069]

Close as a character whose flaws continually lead him to sabotage himself and bring himself down. He is nowhere near the notorious character we are led to believe is the narrator either during his telling or in the "present". A friend of mine calls him a Mary sue and I just laugh because to me the notion is absurd

[@shanejarry1978]

I think people just get angry about Kvothe because he’s intelligent and aware of his intelligence. Most people, especially people of average intelligence are rubbed the wrong way by this and want the person/character to humble themselves and pretend that they are average. Lol it’s alright to recognize your talents.

[@meeble4191]

Any one who thought the Kingkiller Chronicles will end with anything other than tragedy wasn't paying attention. And Rothfus has confirmed as much. it is a tragedy. You hit the nail on the head, Kvothe is his own worse enemy, and not really the hero.

[@nikolasversteeg]

I think the biggest argument towards him being a Mary sue is that usually, he'll fail once at something, and then be amazing at it. I love how in the entire video you never mentioned how he was able to do all of this by 11, and how on his first day of class he literally taught an entire class. Sure, he can't do EVERYTHING, but anything he even tries, or fails once at, it feels like he's a master of afterwards. I have only read the first book, and am not interested in reading the second. Kvothe was definetly an interesting character, and the roose is beautiful, but Rothfuss writing style isn't for me.

[@Days-rh5rs]

yes

[@turtleanton6539]

Yes

[@VERITAX808]

Kvothe I feel has been conning us.

[@billyalarie929]

I read this as “rothfuss I feel has been conning us”

[@sorenbuenneke6434]

No, Kvothe is basically a mary sue. You said that one of the key characteristics of a mary sue is that they "don't struggle" but I think that's a flawed argument. Of course they struggle - if they didn't there would be no plot. The key is where that struggle comes from. Mary sues of course have to overcome all sorts of obstacles and setbacks, and sometimes they even appear to have lost (though they always win in the end), but those setbacks are almost exclusively the fault of something or someone else, or else if they are due to the character's actions, end up being not that big of a deal after all. This is 100% the case with Kvothe. SPOILER ALERT: Innocent Kvothe was an innocent victim of the Chandrian, his hardships in Tarbean were only due to the cruelty of others, his problems at the University were due entirely to unjust treatment by Ambrose and Hemme, and the most crucial one of all: to all people saying "he's not a mary sue because he's a broken man" first of all, he's still automatically the best innkeeper and loved by all lol, second we can probably assume that he will emerge victorious in the end, and third, what people seem to forget is that even if he fails in the end, WHATEVER CAUSED HIM TO BECOME KOTE ISN'T HIS FAULT EITHER, IT'S THE CTHAEH'S FAULT!!! Nothing is ever his fault, everybody admires him, and if they don't, they're the asshole (e.g. Ambrose) Yes he makes mistakes, but they always end up either being not that big of a deal, or he ends up coming up with a clever solution. Yes he has slight areas of improvement, but he always ends up becoming the best after all. Yes you could argue that he has annoying personality traits, but importantly, that's not the way the other characters in the world view him - no one ever calls him out for being so full of himself, they just keep praising him. Yes he does morally questionable things, but he is never scorned or punished for them (however he IS scorned and punished unjustly for other, good or neutral deeds). His falling out with Devi lasted all of 2 minutes, his awkwardness with girls all of a sudden evaporated after his very first time with Felurian and he became this world-class lover, he ended up being Elodin's Re'lar despite Elodin rejecting him, and a thousand more examples. None of his mistakes have permanence, nothing can't be overcome, but if someone actually can't be overcome, it's never his fault.

[@Pos44Dami]

that's it Kvothe is a mary sue, he could have played music to chase around town, but strangely enough he suffered from amnesia at the time, which returned 3 years later.