Answering the Problems of Evil with Dr. Clay Jones

Why does God allow evil? Why do we suffer for Adam's sin? Where did cancer and tsunamis come from? In this interview, I talk with Dr. Clay Jones, author of "Why Does God Allow Evil?", about the various Problems of Evil.
Affiliate link to Dr. Jones' book on evil: amzn.to/2xGx9YR
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#Problemofevil #Apologetics #Christianity

[@adammeade2300]

Jones is on point. I've read every book he mentions, and many he doesn't (but has probably also read). The one that always sticks out to me....that he did give a nod to....is Lewis's "The Problem of Pain." That work is the most concise treatment of the matter that I've come across. It's also a relatively short read...one that I've offered to buy for many of my atheist friends. Unfortunately, people aren't usually interested in learning. They're only interested in winning an argument, so they don't want to spend 5 hours reading a book that may alter their views on matters eternal.

[@livingtoaster1358]

From what I've listened to, I think "suffering now, is not comparable to the glory of Heaven" is lazy thinking, and it doesn't solve the here and now, which is what everyone cares about, which the bible advocates us for thinking, is to focus on the present, yes Heaven is the goal, but like every story the ending is just as important as one gets there, so I view the problem of evil as though it were a story, every hero needs conflict to overcome if there is no conflict there is no development in character and there is fundamentally no story, for example the story of Job, the problem of evil was to reveal the darkness and sin Job didn't realize he had, which was his pride

[@fabulousfabio8228]

This Jones guy is completely out of touch with reality. Dinosaur fossils have been discovered with cancer. Does he think humans co-existed with dinosaurs? Come on...

[@LoveYourNeighbour.]

This channel is DEFINITELY among THE TOP of apologetics on KZbin! I'm used to listening to Dr. Paul Copan on this subject & I've even got 2 of his great books, on related issues. But NOW I get to hear Dr. Clay Jones AS WELL?! Thank you SO MUCH for your top drawer contributions, to the body of Christ!

[@winstonjen5360]

Why don't you read something besides the bible?

[@mklizzar]

It's high quality yea, but youtube is run by Satan, look up "project owl".

[@eugengolubic2186]

I wasn't sure if I wanted to watch this video, but I'm glad I did.

[@ChrisHolman]

Mike Winger recommended this video

[@mattlove9066]

That's how I found it

[@LVGirl4]

Love Mike Winger. He’s so great.

[@curiousgeorge555]

I'll recommend it to a friend. Hope he mentions my name!

[@Notevenone]

Thanks Mike for suggesting Mr. Jones book. So glad I found this video too.

[@Devv_93]

I’ve been struggling with “the problem of evil” a lot lately and questioning my beliefs, but this video honestly just convinced me of my faith. Thank you so much for this!

[@wet-read]

I get the idea of humans being flawed. I get the idea of being hateful of humans for whatever personal reasons. But I don't get the idea that every single person is in essence tainted from the start, and all equally so, such that they need a savior, something that is to be exalted above all else and for whom absolute obedience is required in order to be "made whole". That to me is both bizarre and deeply unpleasant. And that is what this guy fervently believes; not surprising, as it is basic Christian dogma. There are so many more useful and varied ways of thinking about and dealing with interpersonal stuff and all manner of other existential issues. And lest you assume I am merely an annoying new atheist gnat, satisfied only to denounce theism and smugly declare victory immediately thereafter... no, I am thoroughly bored with that approach, at least when it comes to deconstructing and dismantling theistic reasoning. I have read meaty things. If you're interested, hit me up. 😊

[@TheSpacePlaceYT]

​@@wet-read You don't sound like atheist idiots. You actually sound like you want to talk in a civil manner, and that I respect you for. I have a question. What is your opinion of the Christain theistic God? (Base Christianity, not alternatives like Jehovah's Witness or Mormonism)

[@wet-read]

@@TheSpacePlaceYT Well yes, I believe in respectful discussion, even if it leads to or begins with disagreement. My opinion is scarcely different from what I initially said. I don't see the appeal of believing in, let alone worshipping, anything like that. It's weird how people largely love freedom in every other context, but when it comes to being seen and thought about and monitored by a being whom there is no hope of meaningfully hiding or escaping from, let alone quarrelling with or outright opposing, freedom is suddenly rendered unimportant, even absurd. In addition, thoughts are apparently not safe from this being's unending attention either. That sounds absolutely hideous to me.

[@MySheils]

THIS INTERVIEW IS A GAME CHANGER FOR ME!!! Thank you so much Cameron for hosting this. Im SO inspired, encouraged and this just clicked and made so much sense. Worth it to listen more than once!

[@AP-Design]

I'm never going to forget that sci-fi analogy. That's a good one.

[@nancyjohnson6557]

I was taught something called The Articles of Faith from the time I was about seven or eight years old, the second one goes; we believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression. I understood why people would be punished for their own sins but I didn’t understand how Adam’s transgression affected us today and if it does affect us today how are we not punished for it. This interview helped me to understand.

[@DanceChristman]

*Well done, Cameron! Dr. Jones is great to listen to. Thank you.*

[@CoranceLChandler]

😉👍

[@-MarquisMark-]

Thanks for introducing me to this brilliant brother.

[@adammeade2300]

"I am not good." This is the most critical turning point that we must come to. It's the lesson in the parable of the pharisee and the publican. It's the lesson in Romans. It's the lesson in Luke 5:32. So long as you're trying to justify yourself, you will never understand what Christ did on the cross.

[@ChristopherUlery]

Loved this interview. Thank you so much for this!

[@NEWCHANNEL00000]

this video has made me so happy, thank you.

[@TheDemolition2000]

What an uplifting interview! Thank you both for the good questions and the good answers. I will need to check out his book and the few others mentioned.

[@fabulousfabio8228]

So you're a young earth creationist?

[@TheDemolition2000]

@@fabulousfabio8228 I’m not sure how that question is a response to my comment, but I’m not sure yet. It is my instinct upon first reading the creation week in scripture to take it literally, but then you have the fossil record showing that life seems to have happened in drawn out phases (dinosaurs prior to man; etc) rather than a mutual existence at the same time. So I either believe in the metaphoric sense of the creation creation week, or the literal interpretation; regardless, I know God exists through first hand experience, but I cannot say the same about the full-fledged evolutionary theory, so that would be first to go through the chopping block if it came to it.

[@fabulousfabio8228]

@@TheDemolition2000 well dr jones thinks cancer exists because Adam and Eve sinned, which isn’t compatible with the current scientific consensus

[@Laskarides]

Thanks for the interview. Great work.

[@miltonwetherbee5489]

"Till We Have Faces" is probably my favorite book! It's one of the few I have read multiple times.

[@tamarasmith1706]

Thank you for all that you do! I feel clarity watching these videos. I struggle with understanding The Lord's decisions because he sometimes allows schools full of children to burn and consume the little humans inside alive. But I know that he is still good and merciful.

[@alhamilton8690]

Because we have free will and the knowledge of good and evil, we now have to experience things that are and make a choice as to what is good or evil under discernment. So we can walk with God under grace and mercy

[@Yard_Sale]

I love this interview so much. About to watch for a 3rd time. So much insight on this topic. It is so helpful! Wish I could like multiple times.

[@inspiredlifestyle7562]

Thanks Cameron Your channel helped and helps so much 🎉

[@DanielApologetics]

What a brilliant man!

[@TexasGuitarRiff]

Wow that interview was great!!

[@PreciousMeddler]

Wow. This might be my new favorite interview on your channel. The quote from Martyn Lloyd Jones @3:50 really hits home - "Most of the Christians' problems are due to a double-failure - we fail on the one hand to understand the depths of our sinfulness, and on the other hand, we fail to understand the glory, the wonder of what God is going to do for us forever."

[@LoveYourNeighbour.]

YES, realizing these two essential points, has a PROFOUND effect on how we view & interpret 'the problem of evil.'

[@michaelflores9220]

Did kids sin in order to get Ebola?

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

@@michaelflores9220 what a stupid question to ask ?

[@bonez1112]

Holy Mackerel.... This is the best interview I've ever seen. You need to get Ravi on here now.

[@robh.5189]

Love Ravi. Agreed!

[@Jamie-Russell-CME]

Awesome interview and topic!

[@ricobonifacio1095]

When God gives us our new body we will no longer be like Adam but Jesus. Amen.

[@KyleCostanza]

He actually said there are no good non-Christians

[@11011000101110100]

crazy

[@11011000101110100]

Yeah that’s not true

[@11011000101110100]

You didn’t make a point... Ya just wrote a claim without backing it up with anything

[@karlblodgett8162]

It's the American Taliban in action.

[@waitingandwatching9328]

Great video CC ...keep up the good work

[@vjnt1star]

46:26 "god wanted to create free beings. He created angels, some rebelled against him. Then he created humans some rebelled against him." Looks like a repeating pattern, one may think there must be something wrong with this god if every time he creates beings they rebel against him.

[@L0rdKrang]

I don’t think that’s logically sound... you don’t lock up the parent of a person that murdered or raped someone because they are not ultimately responsible. Why would it be any different with God who creates free will beings who can choose to reject him because they think they know what is better than He does. It’s clear in the video that he addresses this I think.

[@Jockito]

@RetroMan What exactly does it say about the creation?

[@timffoster]

It suggests He's more in charge than we might think: 1. The elect angels didn't rebel against Him. 2. The elect humans get to spend eternity with Him. 3. His chosen Son never sinned against Him (and, I daresay, could *not ever* sin against Him) and loved Him before the foundations of the earth. Thoughts.

[@edwardreese976]

Why is this so hard...without free will, the love that God wanted in return would have been meaningless to Him. Imagine putting a gun to your kid's or spouse's head and said obey me. Or love me, honor me. Chances are if they do so, is because they didn't want their heads blown off. True they could have still not done so, but let's be real. Pretty much anyone would do so.

[@unturbe]

Edward Reese But that is what God is doing! Love me or spend eternity in hell.

[@Notevenone]

Just finished Mr. Jones book. Will have to listen to it a few more times but it’s amazing and very humbling.

[@briannicholson7729]

I watched the clip and it led me to start this video. I loved the clip and am excited to hear this interview. Also, I think he looks a bit like Norm McDonald.

[@thecarpenterexperience2762]

A bit like him and Letterman combined

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

Nope.. But Reynolds

[@moose9906]

This was excellent, thank you.

[@oadefisayo]

One of the reasons I love this interview is, unlike many other apologists, he actually mixes in quite a lot of theology. Excellent video

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

It's so wonderful to hear these type of testimonies where the bad man becomes a good man in CHRIST and then it delivers his family..May GOD bless you n yours brother Clay.

[@theseeker6097]

Wow what a fantastic interview! Cameron your doing such great work with these interviews. Real eye opener! Dr. Clay Jones what a realistic shoot from the hip Truth wake up call!

[@FuzTheCat]

I appreciate many of the questions and answers presented here, however, there are a few things that need exploring further. 1. "I don't think that God could create a world without suffering unless it had an antecedent world where suffering existed." In other words, we need to experience evil in order to understand that evil is bad? This simply seems broken by design as it implies that evil is necessary or at the very least unavoidable. It implies that there can be no saved people unless there are lost people. Is this not incredibly "messed up?" I firmly believe that God's original plan was both not broken and entirely adequate without necessitating first-hand experience with evil. If we consider the present roles of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, we might understand that the plan is for us to come to a knowledge of God by having God _over_ us (the Father), God _with_ us (the Son) and God _in_ us (the Holy Spirit). God creating beings of accountability (or free-will) is a tremendous act of faith (and love) on God's behalf towards us. All God was asking was for us to reciprocate this faith and love. So I see God's original plan was that universal inoculation against evil would naturally occur as we beheld God's faith and love as with patience we experienced God over us (commanding us in righteousness), with us (as an example of righteousness) and in us (empowering us to be righteous). As our faith and love relationship with our Creator matured, we would be rendered eternally safe and universal inoculation against evil would occur. I think it is very important to understand that God had an original plan that was perfect and completely sufficient without invoking experiential evil. One of the reasons why it is evil is because it is so completely and absolutely unnecessary, for if it was necessary, how can it be called evil?

[@FuzTheCat]

2. We ask why do bad things happen to good people. It is pointed out by examining genocide that we are all bad people. I think this could be explored further by asking any human being to _prove_ absolutely that they are safe to save to Heaven (the New Earth). Not one of us can provide any such proof of safety thereby demonstrating that every single person is not good, but rather is bad. If this is the case, then we need to understand the actual question that a loving God is asking instead: "Why do bad things have to happen to bad people?"

[@ransombaggins9301]

Dr. Jones was my advisor for my graduate work about 15 or so years ago when he was really digging into this topic for publication and I'll never forget sitting in his office with him batting around ideas and criticisms as he wrestled with this topic. We weren't always on the same page but were generally in the same book. :) A good man. Well, you know what I mean. 😉

[@levipaul3168]

Man this is great content.

[@dillonbrandes5621]

Another terrific video Cameron! Keep up the great work!

[@AtamMardes]

Based on psychiatric medical science, you are hallucinating if you think an imaginary being is giving commands/comments.

[@TheSpacePlaceYT]

@@AtamMardes This is based on the assumption that the being is imaginary. It makes logical sense if something is imaginary and you are interacting with it, it is hillucination. You haven't made any good point here.

[@AtamMardes]

@@TheSpacePlaceYT That being is imaginary unless you can prove otherwise.

[@alexpower9423]

You're a great interviewer, with finessed questions and points - and you go out of your way to avoid straw-man / red herrings, etc. And great production too: shot / lens / lighting / LUT / grade and clean audio. All these elements combined elevate your vids up from what could be purely functional to really enjoyable.

[@Sorana44]

Love this great interview.

[@FinPhysio]

This guy seem to "know" everything. It is nice to live in a bubble like that. Real wise people admit how little they know.

[@CapturingChristianity]

Antti Hokkanen By your own standard, shouldn’t you admit you don’t know he doesn’t know?

[@FinPhysio]

@@CapturingChristianity I don't know that he doesn't. I just don't have any good reason to think he does know stuff that nobody can't know. He should admit that.

[@darklydevine2983]

So you made an assumption based on your own logical reasoning, which seemed to conclude he thinks he knows everything, putting you in the same posistion of thinking you know everything, even what this man thinks internally. The quote itself comes from socrates account of the greek philospopher plato, while also being the man who thought he had great answers to all the same reasoning the biblical account answers to including such things as ignorance of reality, i.e. ignorance of your own corrupt nature, the philospher developed an understanding of how empires crumble, how there is a higher concept of everything material, such as the perfect angle and that anything in the physical realm was below standards of perfect, almost like what the biblical count is talking about with a perfect creator who is the ideal and anything material fails in reaching his perfection, it was a great claim from a man who told everyone a philosophy to live by to state that he knew nothing. This guy isnt knowing everything btw he is only presenting his observations of what he does know and comparing it to the already confirmed knowledge of the creator and seeing if it alligns with what is known

[@FinPhysio]

@@darklydevine2983 "Already conformed knowledge".. I wonder where is this knowledge? Comformed by circular reasoning..

[@darklydevine2983]

@@FinPhysio anitta so first "confirmed" not conformed and also, your moving away fromone point that your making and that i rejected, if your testing the inerrancy of the bible that is a completely different point your addressing. If you throw away one argument without legitimate reason to because its related to the bible your never willing to grow

[@scotthutson8683]

Great interview! I appreciate Dr. Jones's willingness to utilize the entire redemptive narrative of the Gospel to answer the problems of Evil. We are Christian's and the Biblical Narrative is a direct answer to the evil world we find ourselves in, our acquaintance with our own sin and a God who saves and adopts his people as his own and makes up for all of the suffering in the end with the promise of himself for all eternity.

[@LoveYourNeighbour.]

WOW, beautifully written, Scott! (Romans 8:18) "I consider that the sufferings of this present time, are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us." (2 Corinthians ) "Our light and momentary troubles, are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all."

[@fabulousfabio8228]

Do you think humans and dinosaurs co-existed? Cancer in fossilized dinosaur bones have been found, but Jones thinks cancer arose because of Adams sin

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

@@fabulousfabio8228 it's very possible that they coexisted ..

[@fabulousfabio8228]

@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 that would contradict the consensus in virtually every scientific field including biology, paleontology, molecular biology, genetics, anthropology etc

[@cecilspurlockjr.9421]

@@fabulousfabio8228 you're wrong there.. it just depends on which religion is presenting the findings

[@MrCt40]

I needed to watch this ..

[@doyoucwhateyec9928]

This all makes great philosophical and biblical sense, great interview!

[@StandFirm24.7]

Thanks CC!

[@danielsoto1647]

Great job man love your channel

[@EnilionVeno]

This filled so many gaps

[@whoopeeshaw8806]

That was really good! I’m going to have to watch it again.

[@johnmcclain3887]

I began believing as a small child, seeing "design" everywhere I looked, a "navy brat" living in Barcelona, Spain, and was shown some wondrous things by the masons building a new apartment building next door, their faith being basic, handed down via family, community, a "fullness of faith" one sees in such a community, and never was able to put such behind me. I got to walk through western history, with our mom, a library sciences professional, adult literacy worker for life, and despite one of the greatest opportunities to learn, live, nothing I saw ever dented, much less reduced my faith, I've never seen anything that challenged it, only people. As a boy, I reasoned out, "if we don't have free will, we can't be tested, because we will do what we are programed to do". I've had a logical, methodical perspective since two, have worked in science, mechanics, electronics, to the breadth and depth of each, and everything I've ever seen, has confirmed my certain knowledge of the evil I, myself can do, and the difficulty of living each day, and eschewing evil, anew, every time it is opportune, and think of Heaven, in the beginning, Angels have not free will, but are directed beings, yet Lucifer, "the Bright and Shining one", and a third of the Angels, programmed, rebelled. If the very creatures God created to do his work, without free will, can choose evil, how much more capable of evil are Man, who has free will, yet if we would be with God, He can't allow us Heaven and rebellion. This is a test, it is only a test, we must endure faithfully, we must sin, because it's our nature, and because we believe, and believe God Loves us, we must repent, and by this we do learn "sin is stupid" has no value in its end, but even as we find this true, each in our own lives, we sin again, and again, even living in faith. "He that endures to the end" is the standard God established for all of us, I think of the thief on the cross, who endured in evil to almost the end, and at the end, repented of his "evil ways" and I can't possibly think of my own life, a mechanic, a hard core biker, a Marine, warrior, Father, Husband, son, brother, and in all, a sinner, to this day. If God did not winnow, he would carry the chaff into the storehouse with the wheat, He can't do that, it is illogical, antithetical. If we sin on our dying day, and repent, we have lived with Our Lord to the end. If we die while we have turned away, and we haven't repented, we aren't able to rein "as Gods" with our Lord, ruling over all, something we don't even know of or understand, we only know this tiny little lump of dirt, we live in sin on, and we repent, or we choose rebellion. I lay no claim to know God's intent, other than as he has told us in His word. I know that I take iron, and burn it yellow hot, and scrape away the dross, contamination, and pour, if clean, into a sand mold, and pull a perfect casting out, because I let it burn away the bad part. Are we not burning off the bad of our nature, here on earth, because heaven has no room for "bad, evil", it has always been cast out, and God won't let us come into Heaven, to be cast out, he did that once, he then established "the test". "Evil is simply the temptation we must overcome, to be sufficient to rule in Heaven." It isn't enough to overcome it once, or twice, but we must put it behind us, certainly, without fail, "the last time", and we must learn to be patient to see "the last time". I find great profit in listening, learning, and growing strength, muscle, in my faith, and my Christian life. Thank you for a truly edifying consideration of a problem we must live with to the end, conquering, that we may enter. God Bless you and your work in his Name, John McClain Vanceboro, NC

[@mentalwarfare2038]

First one to read this. God bless

[@jokoboyama6322]

This is helpful. Thank you both and God

[@riazozobrado6292]

God loves us so much that He gave us free will. If He didn't give us any choice but to love Him, or do good, that's manipulation.

[@randumgaming]

Fantastic video!!

[@dagwould]

Well worth another listen! This time I'll note the scriptures quoted. When we discuss 'free will' a term I don't really like because it connotes a philosophical debate, rather than a pastoral one the explanation given was the typical one: would you like your spouse to necessarily love you or would you prefer, and find more valuable if their regard for you was their responsibility? But I think God's economy runs in converse to this. God blessed us with free will back to that term, not for his good, but for ours. We could hardly be in communion with God if we were determined and 'enjoyment' would hardly be the word. Rather there can be nothing better than knowing the infinite God who is love. As creatures in his image, with our own wisdom, knowledge and understanding, we will truly know God. Not fully, ever, but truly and we will know that we know him truly. Robots get no joy at welding car chassis, skilled craftsmen do, though. Similarly with worship and praise of God. This is not 'good' for God. It is good for us to do, as in we thrive on it, enjoy it, grow in doing this and deepen our experience of God.

[@susangregory4641]

THIS my friends is one of THE best videos on the internet that I have ever seen. I just ordered the book. Thank You

[@winstonjen5360]

If suffering's such a blessing, why don't we just inflict as much of it as possible? Apologists always talk about a mysterious "greater good." They never mention what that is, though. Strange. An all-knowing, all-powerful god could just tell them what this "greater good" is.

[@winstonjen5360]

@@Wyrviny Why is faith a good thing? Why be gullible?

[@darklydevine2983]

Your appologists arent good at explaining is that the greatest form of good is saving as many peoples eternal souls as posisible, first god didnt start of the suffering we did, secondly if god interupted the suffering and stopped us from coming to him ourselves he wouldnt be great, he would be a tyranical forceful god, he gives you your freedom of choice, you choose not to take it. Finally it is far more gullible believe in the extremely unlikely occurance of a universe that came into being by the bizarre circumstances of nature that is something appearing from nothing and becoming everything, to claim a virgin birth is impossible, is also to claim that something fro. Nothing is also completely impossible. They both need supernatural intervention to actually be possible, it is far more likely that this universe itself, you, all your memories from the whole of your lifetime, all that you see is an apparition, just a random wvent that will disolve in an instant, without giving you time to process this information. If you call out gullibility you are by far calling yourself out on the same claim

[@winstonjen5360]

@Isiah Jones Christians don't have to be retarded. They simply choose to be.

[@darklydevine2983]

@@winstonjen5360 you find that throwing insults appeases your nature, feel free to throw insults. However, you seem like an adult so maybe you should gain maturity to be able tou listen and converse without degrading your fellow man with your tongue. So god can without suffering, its called forcing you against your will to come to him, take away all free will, he could have had a completely perfect world, but a loving god wont force himself on you, a loving god gives you the freedom to choose what you want, when we choose to sin against us he removed uus from the garden where the tree of life was,, without the tree of life we degenerate, mutate, cancers and other forms of diseases devolop, some people go completely towards their carnal nature, god cant have sin in his presence, so we were femoved from his presence for our sin. Thats why he doesnt, it was our ancestors choices to disobey and it was gods choice to give them what they wanted, its by love that he allows freedom, its by freedom were allowed sin, its by sin that death and suffering came into the world and its by love that we can return to perfection!!!

[@winstonjen5360]

sola scriptura Deus Dat Incrementum Would you respect someone who tortured your kids? Or someone who told a rape victim to “Get over it. Jesus went through worse.” Would you forgive someone who said “Suffering builds character” while they lived a life of luxury?

[@blazemordly9746]

This makes me weary to check Grandma’s cookies next time before i eat em.

[@Ryo-sj8wn]

Hey Cameron can you put a list of the books he suggests in the discription please? This was good as great work.

[@siyabongamashaba2593]

This is dope. I really enjoyed it.

[@davidayisi7699]

This is honestly one of my favourite interviews if not my favourite. It reminded me of how real the hope I have is and really how good God is. I personally believe the problem of pain and evil is only answered by Jesus and it's a very good answer

[@paulmillr1]

This was a fascinating way of looking at suffering. A way I had never considered before.

[@ThatReadingGuy28]

Paul Awesome I agree. When I listened to some of his lectures on KZbin, I was astonished at this guy’s answers. Why don’t more apologists talk this way about the problem of evil?

[@kaufmanat1]

When I was younger I had a much firmer grasp on what God had to offer, and how evil humans were. The problem of evil wasn't a problem. I understood i was evil and understood I deserved nothing good and everything bad so anything better than that was mercy. As i grew older, I temporarily walked away from my faith and the process of Coming back it gave me much greater insight to why people struggle with the problem of evil, as I understood people think children getting cancer is unfair, tsunamis killing innocent people is unfair, genocide is unfair. How could God create us just to kill us and torture us. I still find it hard to explain to non believers how I reconcile the problem of suffering. Honoring God through suffering we defeat evil. I think when we die we will see clearly what we suffered through from God's perspective, and we will understand how God can be just when we see fully how great God is and how little we are, and we will laugh at the audicty of men who look at God and say, "how dare you." As humans, understanding God, we are like ants trying to understand humans. We lack the faculties comprehend God, but that doesn't mean we can't realize he is so much greater than me, any questioning of Him does begin to look silly when you consider what he has done for us. Sorry for the nonsensical rant. This is basically a stream of consciousness into the keyboard.

[@supercoupe86]

Really? So you’re glad people are suffering? You Paul, have been brainwashed.

[@kaufmanat1]

@@supercoupe86 Really? eople suffering for no reason is good??? Do u have a time stamp for that quote?

[@kaufmanat1]

@@mickqQ except they never asked me for money... So...

[@delikatessbruhe9843]

I have countless things to criticise but for now let me give you just one thing: if whether or not a person does good things doesn't determin if that person is good or not - I *don't care* whether or not a person is good. Forgive me for ultimately caring about what they do, rather than what they "are" in some impalpable vague sense. Still let it be said that I respect your work and channel Cameron, I enjoy the honesty with which you go about your debates.

[@bryansphere6359]

I loved hearing his testimony. The power of God to transform lives is an amazing reality!

[@michaelflores9220]

I was a catholic Christian until age 24. I'm 28 and have no regrets! Coral, flowers, anatomy, the stars, they re so much more amazing in the atheist worldview!!!!

[@michaelflores9220]

Transform live show? Depress people by teaching them that people are shrieking in unfathomable agony day and night forever and ever? Make them nice ot people? Plenty of atheists are nice people.

[@stevehall1218]

@@michaelflores9220 This is why there are several denominations and Bible translations. I went to a Catholic mass and it was like aerobics with all the standing and sitting down. People reciting creeds by saying the words by rote without understanding. It was not for me either.

[@jt2097]

@@michaelflores9220 I agree, the catholic church has done more to harm Christianity than any other institution in history. The emperor Constantine started the corruption of the catholic church when he brought in pagans and their customs. Hell, Hades and eternal torment is not Biblical, It comes from sun worshipping pagans. The Biblical hell is the grave. When you are dead you are dead, ashes to ashes and dust to dust. When the wicked are finally destroyed they die by fire and are ashes beneath your feet, the birds will gather to feast on the corpses. There is no purgatory and there is no eternal torment. These were brought into the catholic church to frighten people into obeying the priests, handing over money and into keeping quiet after their abuse. A God of love would not torture people forever and I hope that you would not be happy in paradise knowing your aunty Mabel was being fried while you were enjoying yourself. You would have to sick in the head to believe such a thing.

[@jt2097]

@The Comedian I don't think that a God of love is going to toast someone for eternity. It is more likely either a misunderstanding or mistranslation. If you read Jude 1:7 it days that Sodom is suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. But it is not burning today is it? More likely the fire that destroyed it is available eternally or maybe the effects of the fire last eternally. Sodom never came back did it?

[@henrykorvus6954]

That was great.

[@thebronzebaron2419]

I believe & we can go into depth about this that we have Free Will over things we can control but over the things we can't control maybe we don't, & so this would imply Free Will isn't random but we get granted more Free Will the more discipline we gain through trial...

[@tommygiles9899]

What a great episode! So much to chew on here. Cameron what's the best way to get a hold of you? I am in the process of writing a book called the Essentials of Christianity and I am interviewing various individuals to pick their brain. Your content has been extremely helpful. Would that be something your open to sharing?

[@taylorcarpenter1122]

One of the best interviews ever

[@jjnan1407]

Has anyone ever told you Cameron that the intro to your videos is really cool? Well, if not, it is.

[@CapturingChristianity]

No one has said it yet. Thanks!

[@powerdrunk6818]

Fantastic interview. Learned a lot. Definitely getting his book and keeping an eye out for Mr. Clay. Thanks CC

[@Mercurychyld1]

Awesome, enlightening, encouraging and hopeful interview. Bravo! God bless. 😌🌹👍🏽🙏🏽

[@MrSheepishLion]

This is hands-down my favorite interview you've done. Gonna go buy the book.

[@CapturingChristianity]

Marc Lambert What’d you like about it in particular?

[@MrSheepishLion]

@@CapturingChristianity His answers were very much in line with many of my own thoughts. Especially addressing the POE specifically from within Christianity. If Christianity is true, the POE isn't a problem at all. So much talk around the POE is more cerebral and kind just ideas. They leave me kinda "meh." The biblical approach tho is actual like ground-level, brass tacks kind of stuff.

[@joeb2588]

I found this to be out there. I mean this is the greatest channel but wow. I'll have to come back and try again. Almost an extremist. I'm going back to Craig, Habermas and Licona for now.

[@mandolinJo]

Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

[@edwardwicks304]

Wow! Eye opening conversation! Man has an innate problem called sin. There needs to be a redeemer. There needs to be one to reconcile wrongs and make them right. The life of Christ makes sense. I am so glad that I heard this brother.

[@wet-read]

I get the idea of humans being flawed. I get the idea of being hateful of humans for whatever personal reasons. But I don't get the idea that every single person is in essence tainted from the start, and all equally so, such that they need a savior, something that is to be exalted above all else and for whom absolute obedience is required. That to me is both bizarre and deeply unpleasant. And that is what this guy fervently believes; not surprising, as it is basic Christian dogma. There are so many more useful and varied ways of thinking about and dealing with interpersonal stuff and all manner of other existential issues. And lest you assume I am merely an annoying new atheist gnat, satisfied only to denounce theism and smugly declare victory immediately thereafter... no, I am thoroughly bored with that approach, at least when it comes to deconstructing and dismantling theistic reasoning. I have read meaty things. If you're interested, hit me up. 😊

[@TheBanjoShowOfficial]

@@wet-read The fundamental problem of human evilness is in chains with the idea that all manner of things can be resolved through a relative moralistic perspective. Your programs have been tried in the world, they were communism. Genocide. Man cannot be depended upon for providing a just and righteous society, because each man inherently covets that which his neighbor is in possession of. This is not an arguable position, every man falls to his sin. Every single one. The atheists will claim that Christianity is simply a device contrived by man to control populations at the whim of government institutions, which is a silly idea, but moreover they propose then that a “new” system of social governance must created to create a fair and just society. And they somehow fail to realize that they have just created the very thing they accuse Christianity of being- a fabrication of man. There is no other option but God, and Christ. Appealing to the highest authority of the cosmos means you suffer an ultimate penalty for walking away from him, and it goes beyond death. This is the only way in which Christianity can “control” populations, because it offers man to be judged unto one another (as iron sharpens iron) and it says that you ultimately have the choice to partake in it or not. But nobody makes the choice except the individual in their heart.

[@joshuavincentparrella6853]

Awesome! Can't wait for more interviews to come.... Haven't even gotten through the whole thing and it's really interesting. Thanks for this Cameron.

[@beowulf.reborn]

*Cameron Bertuzzi:* "How would your response to [the Problem of Evil] differ if you thought that maybe Adam and Eve weren't historical figures? I know that that's a big study for some people, a lot of Old Testament Scholars are on the side of like, this is kind of mythology, you know, so how would your response differ to that question if ..." *Dr. Clay Jones:* "Well, the idea that Adam and Eve weren't historical persons, I think we need to drive a wooden stake through the heart of that notion, is that, clear enough?" ----- I laughed so hard at this part. Could not have said it better! 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣

[@ciciliayauw7272]

Yes.... We are do the right thing not necessarily because we loved them. And that's why not our 'do right' that save us. But God search our heart. How deep your heart calibrate with HIM thats important. 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@marcelh.8357]

I think in regards to the question of heaven being boring as you posed in the interview, is mainly due to a Christian misconception which gets passed on to the skeptic. Rather than heaven being another world we have to get to, the Bible portrays heaven as a reality of God's rule and presence which breaks into our world and transforms it into New Creation which will only be complete in the final return of Jesus. If we realize that, then we can see that new creation will be like this world, but a thousand times better without moral corruption,sin and death. This is the picture the scriptures begin with as appointing humans as the Imago Dei to rule and partner with God and in a sense build his vision of new creation with him. I think NT Wright does a great job of highlighting this theme, that many have missed. Regardless, awesome interview Cameron! May God continue to bless and use your ministry! Keep up the good work. I will definitely have to read Dr.Jones book in the near future.

[@dannycolombo90]

Truth is, human mind in his nature finds it hard to accept evil just exists without any connections to any good reason. Evil just exists. And for humans to accept this, means they have to accept "God" is not good, at least by what "good" means for human minds, and this is very hard to accept while keep being serene and positive about life. It is possible though, but it requires great control of own mind and emotions. This is proven also by the fact people take so long to formulate an explanation to justify the existence of evil in a way that makes them feel comfortable about it. Life is not easy in its own nature, but we can make it much better and in my opinion we should be fully sincere to ourselves, to become more grounded to reality and therefore becoming stronger and more active towards improving life of each other.

[@RLF1]

If you weren't there, you didn't experience and witness it and as a result, its Hearsay being passed down.

[@lovelight2914]

Only 17 minutes into this Interview & am with him all the way so far. When i got to know Jesus, i realized too, how bad, selfish & proud i actually have been/are & that i do need Him as my Saviour from all this mess, which comes of that. Yes, Genocide is another example, what humans are capable of. And if you know of the "Milgram-Experiment", one understands, why seemingly decent people could be encouraged to do bad things.😕☹️ The "evil-DNA"(that's what i call it) sleeps in all of us.😔 But praise GOD for His Son!💖 Thank you very much for this, Brother Cameron! Looking Forward to listen to the rest. ☺️ Very nice Intro, BTW! God Bless you & yours, Mr. Jones & everybody! 🙌🏼👩🏼🙏🏼💖

[@kaijinkazura520]

Evil dna?? da hellll Its called temptation of evil not DNA

[@sebastianramirez4780]

The absence of God is the very definition of hell, you remove light you get darkness

[@kevinschaefer3945]

Cameron, Can I purchase a transcript of this?

[@mitchelweaver6801]

Man, that Norm MacDonald really knows a lot about Jesus

[@cjmeadors]

The Bible doesn’t say Adam & Eve only wanted to know what was good, but that they wanted to know both Good & Evil. In other words, they didn’t want to be children anymore and wanted to decide matters for themselves, like adults. Unfortunately, there are some things that can’t be unlearned like the knowledge of death, pain & suffering, random unfairness, cruelty, etc. You wish you didn’t know about these things, but it’s too late. This is the price of freedom.

[@Jockito]

What you've just implied here is that God didn't want Adam and Eve to be free, mature adults, but instead remain ignorant children without freedom, just following Daddy's orders and not thinking for themselves - if only they didn't screw things up that is how you've described we'd all be like. Is that really the sort of God you worship? One that wishes his creation would just follow orders mindlessly without ever questioning why or seeking understanding? By the way, knowing the difference between Good and Evil is not an ignoble desire, it's how a free agent can make informed free choices. If the way you've described it is correct, then God didn't even want Adam and Eve to know what was good.

[@genewilliams2567]

I appreciate much of the interview and how direct Dr. Jones is! The deterministic view which he is knocking down is a caricature of the biblical view. Biblically, man is simultaneously accountable for the choices he makes and at the same time, God has chosen those whom he has chosen. Dr. Jones is knocking down a straw man version of the biblical position with his robot wife example.

[@jonnyw82]

The lesson of rebellion is so important that God is willing to facilitate an eternity of suffering? Suffering on earth and suffering in the afterlife?

[@sledge2742]

"People have adultery and hate in their hearts, but just because they don't act upon them, we call them good people. They're not good. They're just not committing adultery or murder out of self interest" one of the most profound things I've heard, there is no such thing as a good person. Society's view of morality is so skewed, but thank God he sent his son to die for us so that at least some of us could be saved (ideally all of us, God wants all of us to be saved, but unfortunately not all will believe).

[@bibleburner8426]

"Society's view of morality is so skewed"...good thing we have the bible to set us straight. The book that condones slavery, advocates for misogyny and the killing of unruly children, and hails the triumphs of multiple genocides. Good thing that when god found himself offended by the humans that he himself created, he decided that the brutal torture and bloody murder of person would be the perfect solution. Your doctrine is repugnant. A person can only believe this toxic nonsense if they were mind f@#ked at a young age. Were you mind f@#ked at a young age and brought up in church Chacob?

[@sledge2742]

@@bibleburner8426 you're doing exactly what this philosopher says so many people do. You underestimate the severity of human wickedness and you don't realise that God is entirely justified to kill us all. But the reason we're still alive is that he gave us a way out. He sent Jesus to die for us so that we could live eternally without condemnation with him.

[@sledge2742]

@@bibleburner8426 you speak to me of morality whilst you are the one who swears at me. Go off and rebel against God if you want, but I stand with God

[@bibleburner8426]

@@sledge2742 I apologize about the swearing; your doctrine is so abhorrent, it distresses me. First off, you can't even prove that your god even exists, second off, even if he were real, he would be a bloodthirsty monster. Why would you stand with a bloodthirsty monster? You're better than that. Seriously.

[@sledge2742]

@@bibleburner8426 the only thing you can prove is mathematics. Science is just backing up claims with evidence, but it is always changing, new ideas always come and go. For example, can you actually prove that evolution exists? Can you actually prove that your conciousness is generated purely by your brain? There is no scientific evidence for either of those, yet you athiests believe them both. You see, you your self have to have a remarkable ammount of faith in your day to day life, whether it's faith in getting into your car and trusting that no one will crash into you, or faith in science. How much more of a stretch is it to have faith in a God with a remarkable ammount of spiritual evidence, by that I mean personal stories and account of what he's done in people's lives across the world. You've gotta believe my friend. As for the 'bloodthirsty monster', always back your claims up with evidence, practice what you preach. You're probably referring to the mass killings of the caananites, but these killings were carried out because God's people, the Israelites, who were the only holy people in the whole world at that time, we're desperate for land and being threatened by these murderous, evil caananites. America justly gives the death sentence to people who have committed serious crimes, and just the other day here in England, a terrorist who had knived two innocent people in London was shot dead by a police officer, who we now hail a hero. But you don't say these are unjustified. You don't moan and wave you liberal hands around at these do you? Now tell me, why do you call yourself bible burner? Why not qur an burner? The Sikhs have a religious book as well, why not burn that? What's so special about the bible?

[@MrCt40]

Dr clay jones is a force of Christian nature ... thanks for sharing Cameron

[@derekmizer6293]

And still cant provide ANY evidence. Claims? Sure Evidence? Nope

[@MrCt40]

Derek Mizer well last time I looked neither could Sam Harris or Dawkins . So the never ending debate rages on ..

[@derekmizer6293]

@@MrCt40 idiot. Sam Harris and Dawkins are not making supernatural claims

[@TheSpacePlaceYT]

@@derekmizer6293 The reason you can't find "evidence" for God's existence is because your insane methodology of determining evidence causes you to reject every logical argument for his existence.

[@dippyfresh1635]

Is there other videos a little more helpful than this? I feel like he wasn't really arguing against the problem of evil or explaining why he holds his positions in the first place. This video left me with more questions than anything. Why is there no other possible creations than this one? Why is suffering necessary? He makes fun of the people who can't come up with one on the spot but the burden would be on him to prove that there is no other possible way. Does he think that heaven has no free will? I have to assume if he thinks that it is impossible for perfectly godly people to have free will. I personally think that feewill can be between hugs or kisses and not just hugs or punches.

[@lazylenni1017]

Rarely have I disagreed with a person more. There is no good justification for the suffering in this universe. Change my mind.

[@livingtoaster1358]

"It's not a logical argument" determinism is very logical, especially having a sovereign God who does all things, first, second Romans, says "wait if God chose me to be saved and God decided what I will do, how can I do anything otherwise" and Paul doesn't disagree, he bites the bullet and say "yes, but how can clay tell the potter, 'you made me wrong", I think all of scripture, makes perfect sense for determinism, like Paul said, you cannot transgress or sin unless God gave you a commandment, so extrapolating that all the way back to Adam and Eve, when God told not to sin, they were destined to sin, for sin came alive to deceive them into disobeying God, and I find it that determinism doesn't undermine experience in fact the opposite, God chose your wife to love you, and we have those experiences no one else, God appointed you to be her husband, God already did everything, like ecclesiastes says, enjoy your life, because that is your portion in life

[@jsin3127]

So Adam and Eve is not a myth, what about the rest of the stories in the Bible? Or is it that the Adam and Eve story is true-ish, where they do exist, but the book is not a direct tale of their existence? If the Adam and Eve story is true, what does this mean for other stories in the Old Testament? Are they also factual? How would this be determined?

[@timothydean]

I pray God to help us Glory be to God

[@nathanwall2808]

If everything is predetermined, then why do we hate abortion? Mankind has the ability to choose between right and wrong, and between rejecting God or accepting God.

[@MrCt40]

Very interesting what he had to say about Ghandhi ..

[@davidclare9324]

I wish he would provide some actual argument and discussion on Adam and Eve as historical people. I'm not convinced that original sin hinges on whether or not Adam and Eve existed historically, but I don't like the answer of "we just can't believe that because it's wrong" and "let's drive a wooden stake through that idea" without any actual reasons.

[@debbiegeshem687]

Both can be true. We can be accountable, and not been able to do otherwise.

[@karinrempel5862]

What is the name of Dr. Clays book?

[@77megapixels53]

As an outsider looking in, the first 20 minutes seem to say this: If I want to be a true Christian, that means that I have to accept that I am a bad person. In fact, everyone who has ever, or will ever live is bad, with no possibility of being good no matter what they do in life. What's more, I am so bad, that I deserve not only every bad thing that happens to me in life, but I also absolutely must be punished for eternity after I die. The only way out of this is to love and submit to the very Being that devised these rules and is threatening this punishment. And maybe, just maybe if I interpret everything the correct way, I will be taken into "glory" after I die instead. I suspect that ascribing to this ideology would lead to a life of uncertainty, tremendous anxiety, fear, constant guilt and unworthiness ultimately culminating in chronic depression with my emotions constantly rolling up and down from massive arrogance because I just know that I've got it right and I'll be "taken into glory," to, crippling fear and unbearable depression because I am not sure that I have it right and I could end up tortured forever. No thanks.

[@gavinhurlimann2910]

Myopic, sub-par IQ reasoning

[@sasilik]

@@gavinhurlimann2910 nope, quite adequate description of christianity. There is nothing wrong with it.

[@gavinhurlimann2910]

@@sasilik: "Everything" is wrong with it, because it's a warped misrepresentation of Christianity.

[@sasilik]

@@gavinhurlimann2910 no, it is not. It is quite adequate description how christianity looks like when you are outside. If you are inside then you are not competent to evaluate it.

[@beowulf.reborn]

Cameron, can you please get Dr. Jones to give a presentation on your channel, teaching through what heaven is really like? That would be amazing to hear ... or if he already has this teaching online, could you please provide us a link?

[@mikethebike2463]

Hi Cameron, I really like your channel. I'm a christian with very little doubts (I think you cannot be a christian without any doubts, sometimes). I love Jesus. This clip brings again one question to my mind, which maybe someone can answer here. Or you can make a new clip about that ;-) (Or there is already one). Clay is talking about Adam and Eve. If these are real two historical persons and the garden Eden was really a certain place in a defined area, is not my question. I can accept also other views. But, the problem or question I have with Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, the Tree and his fruits is this: Would there have been a chance, that they didn't "eat the fruit"? Would we (or only these two) then be still in the garden Eden? For Eternity? Here's my view on this, but I still struggle to be honest. IF GOD wants the love of a human being on free will, he HAS TO give the opportunity to chose not to love him. Otherwise it is not real love, and so it is no love at all. This free will he gave to Adam and Eve HAD TO lead to a wrong decision (or "sin") sooner or later. NECESSARILY. Clay is also talking about the "fallen nature" of men and the whole world. But without the opportunity to chose between wrong (the fallen world) and right (God), God cannot have the love of men on free will. You see what I mean? This world has to be the way it is, with all it's cruelty and evil, to give men the chance to seek and find God, as the all good, all loving, eternal being. If there would be only good, love, peace and we would have no idea about the opposite, evil, hate, cruelty, the idea of love would have no substance, no meaning. Is this a logic statement? Or is there a major issue I have overseen?