Cardolan - Death's Kingdom

[@Antipius]

I can't imagine Cardolan was as deserted as the books make it out to be. Such a large, lush, flat land, full of rivers doesn't stay unsettled for long. I like the way DaC depicts it, with Enedwaithrim in the south of Cardolan, while the rest (besides the Barrow-Downs) is ruled over by petty realms like the Kingdom of Sarlainn.

[@gengisgio]

Agree. I believe it was deserted in the same fashion Mongolia or certain places in Africa are: no bigger cities or even towns, but small villages and homesteads here and there.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I do like DaC's portrayal of Cardolan myself.

[@wilhelmrk]

One of my favorite DaC campaigns was as the Kings men/black numenoreans starting in Tharbad and posing as a reinvigorated fake Cardolan. The area seems perfect for a river based Kingdom, trading from Tharbad over land with Bree and Rohan/Dunland and over the river Downstream. Then again, this long border can also be their weakness.

[@MerkhVision]

What is DaC?

[@claudiopereira5163]

​@@MerkhVisionDivide and Conquer, a mod for the game Medieval 2 Total war. Very good game, and excellent mod, that is still being improved.

[@rainerwinkler8635]

some similiarity there to the kingdoms of the franks. When charlemagen died, his three sons split the realm into western frankia (modern France) middle frankia (Belgium and Holland) and eastern Frankia (Germany).

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Ah yes, I'm very familiar with the Karlings through years of CK2.

[@baizen1]

I wanted to say that Eastern Francia is obviously the one who turned evil cause... You know... France. But then I remembered what a certain Eastern Francia was up to in the late 1930s...

[@rainerwinkler8635]

@@baizen1 Eastern Franks are the naughty ones

[@Marko777ify]

Ok, who's Angmar then? The Vikings?

[@billychops1280]

No they didn’t lol, when Charlemagne died he only had 1 son left so everything went to him, when his son died he’s the one who separated the empire between his sons

[@GRWelsh7]

Darth Gandalf is such a great nickname. We instantly know what it means. It's like Nerd Squared.

[@CyBromancer7562]

I would love to learn more about Minhiriath from you, including Eryn Vorn! From what I have heard, it was this sparsely wooded, untilled plain region inhabited by secretive hunter/forest folk, and had history not just with Arnor in the Third Age, but a long conflict with the Numenorean colonies there in the Second Age. The men that lived there were probably related to the Dunlendings and Haladin, and lived in that region since the First Age.

[@HagalSkrymir999]

Cardolan is fascinating indeed. Even though i would argue, if the people of Arthedain try to reclaim Cardolan, maybe it would be a good idea to bypass widely the haunted place known as the Barrodown and enter Cardolan through the later lands of the Shire and the Sarnfurt. OR, if they want to reclaim the old burial grounds, maybe ask someone like Glorfindel for help in cleansing the damn place. Now that i mentioned that, i really wonder why after the destruction of Angmar and the Witch King gone, no one did cleanse this place and freed the bodies/souls. The Dunedain of Arnor also smithed weapons that were able to hurt wraiths. Merrys Sword even hurt the Witch King himself severely. Cardolan was probably quite fertile, being positioned between two rivers. If people learn to use the flooding to their advantage, that would be even more the case. On top of that, the flat and hilly land probably benefits from ocean climate. Its a miracle though how the lands of Cardolan, Minihiriath and also Enedwaith remained without forests. In our world, if there are no humans or big herds of grazing, large to very large herbivores around who prevent trees from spreading, a forest needs around twenty years to reconquer the land. After fifty you would have a massive forest of healthy large trees everywhere. If we consider the climate of Cardolan to be a bit like western/central Europe or US Eastern Woodland regions. Normally Treebeard should be the happiest Ent ever in regard to regrowing forests, he should be able to walk merilly from Fangorn right up to Toms door. And from his point of view, twenty to fifty years would be the glimpse of an eye.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Great points! I think I read somewhere that in the Second Age, Enedwaith was indeed covered by woods, but those got progressively cut down by Númenoreans to build their fleet

[@istari0]

@@LeHobbitFan That is correct; the Númenoreans did cut down most of the forests in that area for ship-building.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I wonder if Arthedain tried to reclaim the Barrow-downs because there were still forts there that could be repaired and repurposed.

[@Uncle_Fred]

@Darth Gandalf Yes, the forts point to an attempt to wrestle back the barrow downs. We don't actually know how many weights existed. It's possible that the wight population was much more formidable at some point. It really is the only explanation as to why Arthadain didn't recolonize these lands. They are way too fertile to be overlooked. There should be at least isolated farmstead going up here, even without a central authority.

[@Marko777ify]

It's simple. Arthedain didn't have the population.

[@jamaigar]

Another Arnor video for that one Arnor fan to enjoy. Have fun, Arnor fans, for you are kings of old in my heart 💜

[@ellanenish5999]

Last Alliance mod for Shogun II Total War (which has a campaign, but only Akallabeth as Last Alliance one is going to be added after modders finish the first one) has an interesting concept of Minhiriath for the future, they plan to make it a home of a people being a merged group of Haladin and Easterlings of the First Age which journey towards Beleriand, but some of them chose to settle the flat yet still a bit forest like region of Minhiriath. For now though Men of Minhiriath are not yet added as a playable and unique faction but it's still a placeholder wildmen nation. Now the modders are making a new update focusing on the Krakafolk - Haladin ancestors of the Dunlendings which mostly settled the fertile lands of Calenardhon, and after that there will be work on Easterlings from around the Sea of Rhun. The mod is well balanced and it has plenty nations ( 14 in Custom Battle and 23 playable in the Campaign, as some of those from the campaigns are states which are dependent of main nation of a certain culture) so I really recommend to try out this mod, especially that it is based on the books (LotR, Hobbit, Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales mostly) which makes it a must-play for a nerd of Middle-Earth and Arda.

[@cavetroll666]

they did such a good job with this zone in most recent lotro patch and they just announced Umbar is next direction of game

[@paulwillis-farrell]

Couldn't agree more, hopefully their plans will include harondor as well haudh-in-gwaleith would be an amazing delve

[@cavetroll666]

@Demon of Carcossa yeah I hope so I'm assuming we walk south from gondor or will we go by boat how far south is the walk to umber I wonder

[@paulwillis-farrell]

@@cavetroll666 given the distance from the poros and the need to cross the harnen before you even get into umbar territory I'd say given the recent size of expansions it would deffo be a decent distance

[@melangellatc1718]

Been reading The LotR yearly since 1983. This video taught me good stuff. Thank you.

[@paulwillis-farrell]

I personally love the LOTRO depictions of all these unknown lands in the legendarium. Idk just something about the ruins exploring the history especially around breeland and the shire that makes me want more and more fan theory's on towns and villages

[@Lawrence_Talbot]

Jokes on you, I DO want to become a Barrow Wight 🧐

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Hey, it's 2023. Who am I to judge if someone wants to become a Barrow Wight?

[@Marko777ify]

@@DarthGandalfYT Haha

[@andreasderycke42]

i love your channel. always those lines on the end crac me up

[@insertname11]

Can't wait to watch this when I come home from work. Best LOTR channel by far.

[@bleekskaduwee6762]

I thought I was going to have a bad day then I saw that you posted a new video, now it is a good day. Thank you brother

[@irishsaint89]

Always found it strange how empty arnor was since humans repopulate pretty quickly. There weren’t major threats like the east of Gondor. That whole area should have been farms and small towns like Bree. Seems like one of the safest areas in middle earth. Same things with the movies never showing any farm land around Gondor despite the population needing food.

[@darksabertm5405]

Yeah, doesn't really make sense does it. I think a version of Eriador where at least cities such as Anuminas, Fornost, and Tharbad would stay relatively populated. It doesn't make any sense that literally everyone who lived in the region died during the wars.

[@baronjutter]

Tolkien has a knack for languages, but not for historic economics when it comes to his world building.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

@baronjutter facts, people in his stories don't repopulate whatsoever. They just give up and die lol

[@thecappeningchannel515]

There is a fisher people living in Minhirath I believe. Orcs, wargs, wraiths may have wiped out the human population so badly they didnt manage to repopulate.

[@legendsofthebravebard]

Ok, so how they going to repopulate an area held by undead creatures or savage hillmen? And the Pellanor Fields were farm fields. Perhaps you're just dense?

[@wedgeantillies66]

Very interesting video on the successor state of Arnor that got the worst fate out of the three of them and effectively ended up a desert of a destroyed land, inhabited by scattered small settlements and wonderes and barrow weights, until the return of the king, allowed it to be restored to life alongside rest of old kingdom of Arnor.

[@sageofcaledor8188]

Excellent video!

[@konstantinmitic9088]

Great video! Cardolan topic is rarely touched upon in lotr community and you did great job depicting it as best as it can. I wondered if there is any possibility you will do the same for rhudaur and/or arthedain.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I definitely want to do a video on Rhudaur.

[@konstantinmitic9088]

@@DarthGandalfYT Great, looking forward to that video!!

[@jonystyles9473]

Loved it bro, again one more excellent video amszing, thanks keep up the good work

[@matyasspevacek286]

I was always deeply interested in Cardolan for god knows why 😅

[@caos1925]

aw end on a happy note, King Ellasar 2 going in to repopulate it, and clearing out the barrow downs for good, with maybe a little help from whatever Tom Bombadil is

[@anti-liberalismo]

The Dunedain were indeed far fewer than the Lesser Men, but in Arthedain i believe they became the majority by the time of the crowning of Argeleb I, since many of the Lesser Men of Arnor perished during the War of the Last Alliance.

[@anti-liberalismo]

What do you think about the statement "no other men have settled dwelling so far west or indeed within a hundred leagues of the Shire"? Do you think this statement is referring about major settlements or about small villages? And also, Frodo said the hobbits had trouble with men in the South Farthing, who do you think they were?

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

There was mention of some hunter-folk, living in woods of Minhiriath. Maybe they lived not only in Erin Vorn, but also in other smaller forests.

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ that makes sense, maybe the hunters lived by the river Baranduin, but what do you think about those men who lived near the Greenway?

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

@@anti-liberalismo I think many of refugees and ruffians were Tharbadians. While the city was deserted, surrounding villages could survive for another century or so. Some of them may be from Dunland, but it is a bit unlikely, since Dunlenndings spoke their own tongue, but it is not mentioned that refugees or ruffians spoke it.

[@anti-liberalismo]

@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ good point, nobody know what happened to the folk of Tharbad

[@istari0]

I suspect the reference is to major settlements. There could also have been people who went to a hunter-gatherer life style. Perhaps the influence of the barrow-wights spread beyond where the barrows were due to tales of them and Angmar even though the latter kingdom and the Witch King were also gone.

[@bundayeti]

Interesting, the barrow-wights are possibly Tolkien's iteration of the Nordic Draugr. Low level mob in Skyrim, nightmare-fuel in LoTR.

[@oliverrichardson7856]

Great video ❤

[@apstrike]

Why are there no Dunedain ruins in Bree? It seems like just a village in Fellowship but obviously was strategic for both Arthedain and Cardolan. I suppose the argument is look to the Barrow Downs, but those are just tombs, not inhabited buildings.

[@alanmike6883]

It's tragic artgedain and cardolan didn't reunite earlier. Had cardolan still survived they still could've asked for assistance From Gondor and might've have survived until Gondor's arrival

[@jaykubisanidiot8657]

What's that??? Secret Bombadil video?!?

[@Marko777ify]

Hsha

[@LSeverusPertinax]

I always found that one passage interesting-"...and the young Sun shone like fire on the red metal of their new and greedy swords." This strongly suggests weapons made of Bronze. Could Bombadil be speaking of the FIRST Age?

[@Jsay18]

you should look up the old 1980-1990's MERP RPG books on Cardolan and Arnor

[@napoleoncomplex2712]

Do you have to put 'Barrow Wightism' down on your medical insurance?

[@WhoIsCalli]

Good vid

[@PenguinofD00mxxx]

My favorite Kingdom

[@concept5631]

0:07

[@istari0]

Well, guess I'm going to have to update my will again. That or don't go to Cardolan.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Update your will in Cardolan for bonus points.

[@manugamer9984]

Tharbad could seemingly make a stronger point than Tyrn Gorthad, the latter being close to a heavily contested border and the former standing on a peaceful area (it survived the Angmar Wars and kinda just died out afterwards). Still, great cities with an autonomous identity had often proved problematic to the monarchs who reigned over them... this could mean that the kings of Cardolan refused to settle in Tharbad to avoid being manipulated by the city elites, like the ancient pharaohs, some roman emperors and even King Louis XIV had done. The mercantile nature of the city only strengthens my point, merchants being historically hostile to feudal nobility, and Arnor certainly was a severely decentralised feudal kingdom... it’s very likely that Tharbad was left to its trade by both the Dunedain and the Witch King until it eventually stopped altogether, thus dooming the city. The early life of Tharbad reminds me of Northern Italy’s medieval cities, with their rich, self governing nature; its eventual fall reminds a lot of the roman settlements in Britannia, like London, York or Bath, archaeologists telling us that, as trade came to a halt, the cities eventually ran out of money and resources to survive and were slowly abandoned. Tyrn Gorthad, on the other hand, wasn’t even a true settlement: it’s true that it was closer to a contested border, but even this isn’t unheard of, the city of Trier being chosen as one of the tetrarchic capitals by Emperor Diocletian despite being on the frontier itself. The kings of Cardolan, whose legitimacy was shaky from the start, could then control the frontline with Arthedain and Rhudaur more easily and have both better control of and protection by their own soldiers.

[@oscarernstell6214]

I am unvertain as to the progress reached in historic research at the time of Tolkiens writing. But what we now know to happen when plague hits a society reliant on a notable extent of coercion, is that who ever feel not inclined to tolerate it, can just simply move to free lands where people have died. It becomes impossible to thus uphold authority. From a dunedain perspective it would indeed seem as if the realms just melted away and vanished. But that need not be the actual fate for the surviving lower classes of workers and thralls. They may find prosperity in remote glens, glades, dells and swamps across the wast prometories if these once great kingdoms. There they would live isolated lives, not easily protected but not really worth while bothering either. But if they weren't there at all, Arnor couldnt be rebuilt.

[@squamish4244]

Basically, we know almost nothing about Cardolan, and what we know ain't good.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Sums up a lot of Tolkien's worldbuilding.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

lon dear was part of cardolan.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

Arthedain mey be the strongest kindom but it did have 3 fortress:Fornost ,Amon sul and Emin beryed. Rhudauer probaply hade only 2 a dunedain one in the angel and one in the trollshawes. Cardolan hade 4 fortreses Tharbad(tecnicli only the north west part)Tyr gorthad ,Lon dear and a fortres in the south downs.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I think Lond Daer was probably abandoned by the time Cardolan existed.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

@@DarthGandalfYT I actualy think lond dear was abandoned by eldacar but when cardolan rous the port was remanded only to be abandoned again durin the civil war.

[@anti-liberalismo]

​@@talesoftheeldar8688 which fortress in the south Downs are we talking about?

[@TheMarcHicks]

The failure of all film adaptations to include Tom Bombadil is a huge part of why I dislike all said adaptations.

[@jorikrouwenhorst7220]

You know the free peoples and Sauron were lucky that Sarlainn never intervened in the war of the ring. Because they would’ve wiped the floor of both sides.

[@bundayeti]

The Waffle House has chosen it's next host.