Why was Eriador so depopulated?

[@TheLyricalCleric]

I think it’s important to remember that Tolkien’s world is definitely not just a physical place but a spiritual and magical place, so the effects of the dark and evil things on the world have more of a hold on the land. The Dead Marshes, after all, are a physical embodiment of a massive war, and the souls of the dead still influence the land thousands of years later. It’s entirely possible that the Witch-King’s presence for so long in Angmar and Fornost is still affecting the land, like a spiritual taint that keeps people from resettling the once-prosperous territory. It might even be why Gandalf takes such an interest in Hobbiton, because it is almost a miraculous safe haven in the midst of dangerous and scarred lands. Just leaving the safety of the shire almost kills the hobbits, from evil trees to black riders to collaborators in Bree. The land is blighted.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

But still, evil men exist in that world and evil energies should not stop them from multiplying at a rate of dubbling the population every 35 years as real people under good conditions do.

[@Amadeus8484]

Agreed 100% though its implied that even Mordor itself became very different and quite quickly with the elimination of genuine supernatural evil.

[@fantasywind3923]

Invasions of Orcs into Eriador are noted as significant event in the timeline: “c. 2480 Orcs begin to make secret strongholds in the Misty Mountains so as to bar all the passes into Eriador. Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.” … 2740 Orcs renew their invasions of Eriador. 2747 Bandobras Took defeats an Orc-band in the Northfarthing. 2758 Rohan attacked from west and east and overrun. Gondor attacked by fleets of the Corsairs. Helm of Rohan takes refuge in Helm’s Deep. Wulf seizes Edoras. 2758-9: The Long Winter follows. Great suffering and loss of life in Eriador and Rohan. Gandalf comes to the aid of the Shire-folk. … 2911 The Fell Winter. The Baranduin and other rivers are frozen. White Wolves invade Eriador from the North. 2912 Great floods devastate Enedwaith and Minhiriath. Tharbad is ruined and deserted.” So…we have a lot of events across different periods, Rangers and their Chieftains also almost regularly died to fight dark creatures, Arador was slain by Trolls, so their raiding is not so rare, and we know that Trolls can roam fairly wide: “The lands ahead were empty of all save birds and beasts, unfriendly places deserted by all the races of the world. Rangers passed at times beyond the hills, but they were few and did not stay. Other wanderers were rare, and of evil sort: trolls might stray down at times out of the northern valleys of the Misty Mountains. Only on the Road would travellers be found, most often dwarves, hurrying along on business of their own, and with no help and few words to spare for strangers.” Dunedain are longlived so their population growth is smaller than among normal peoples, the Hobbits increase in numbers obviously. There are also obviously places which are not really hospitable, swampy grounds, the area near Tharbad around river Gwathlo was a vast area of marshlands originally, and with the ruin of the numenorean infrastructure and drainage works, it would return to natural state, huge swamps are not good for large population. And even near Bree there are some areas that are not fitting: “The land had been falling steadily, ever since they turned aside from the Road, and they now entered a wide flat expanse of country, much more difficult to manage. They were far beyond the borders of the Bree-land, out in the pathless wilderness, and drawing near to the Midge-water Marshes. The ground now became damp, and in places boggy and here and there they came upon pools, and wide stretches of reeds and rushes filled with the warbling of little hidden birds. They had to pick their way carefully to keep both dry-footed and on their proper course. At first they made fare progress, but as they went on, their passage became slower and more dangerous. The marshes were bewildering and treacherous, and there was no permanent trail even for Rangers to find through their shifting quagmires. The flies began to torment them, and the air was full of clouds of tiny midges that crept up their sleeves and breeches and into their hair. ‘I am being eaten alive!’ cried Pippin. ‘Midgewater! There are more midges than water!’ ‘What do they live on when they can’t get hobbit?’ asked Sam, scratching his neck. They spent a miserable day in this lonely and unpleasant country. Their camping-place was damp, cold, and uncomfortable; and the biting insects would not let them sleep. There were also abominable creatures haunting the reeds and tussocks that from the sound of them were evil relatives of the cricket. There were thousands of them, and they squeaked all round, neek-breek, breek-neek, unceasingly all the night, until the hobbits were nearly frantic. The next day, the fourth, was little better, and the night almost as comfortless. Though the Neekerbreekers (as Sam called them) had been left behind, the midges still pursued them.” One cannot leave out the possible ecological reasons, while the Enedwaith and Minhiriath forests were logged by the Numenoreans that it destroyed the area for a long time, by the time of War of the Ring the land was still fairly wooded in places, but those great areas that were thoroughly destroyed and turned into grasslands would be more like central/eastern Enedwaith, so closer to the foothills and so Dunland and further towards Gwathlo as I said lots of marshes, whole large wetlands that would grow after the floods and with the numenorean works of engineering falling into disrepair swamps do not aid in resettling the land one also mention of the changing of conditions during time of Arnor and Angmar war, like “fled west and south, because of the wars, and the dread of Angmar, and because the land and clime of Eriador, especially in the east, worsened and became unfriendly.” So this was even long before all those other events listed above. Vale of Anduin sees some resettling and colonization of woodmen, though it also saw the periods when peopel escaped from the northern parts of Rhovanion, Hobbit mentions dragons driving men away in the past (well who would want to have those as neighbors :)?).

[@jrthurman7237]

I like this idea. The witch king or sauron cursed the people and the land, from the old forest to the coast it was uninhabitable. The old forest (and Bombadil?) by their ancient and impervious nature bounded the cursed area? Creating a safe haven Gandolph and the rangers were aware of, but few others? Tolkien alluded to all of this. Maybe a nugget of world building he didn't get to. Or thought it was understood in sub-text. Great insight.

[@fantasywind3923]

@@jrthurman7237 there might be something to it...we are told that as Angmar's influence grew there were some changes: "A great host came out of Angmar in 1409, and crossing the river entered Cardolan and surrounded Weathertop. The Dúnedain were defeated and Arveleg was slain. The Tower of Amon Sûl was burned and razed; but the palantír was saved and carried back in retreat to Fornost, Rhudaur was occupied by evil Men subject to Angmar, and the Dúnedain that remained there were slain or fled west. Cardolan was ravaged. Araphor son of Arveleg was not yet full-grown, but he was valiant, and with aid from Círdan he repelled the enemy from Fornost and the North Downs. A remnant of the faithful among the Dúnedain of Cardolan also held out in Tyrn Gorthad (the Barrow-downs), or took refuge in the Forest behind. It is said that Angmar was for a time subdued by the Elvenfolk coming from Lindon; and from Rivendell, for Elrond brought help over the Mountains out of Lórien. It was at this time that the Stoors that had dwelt in the Angle (between Hoarwell and Loudwater) fled west and south, because of the wars, and the dread of Angmar, and because the land and clime of Eriador, especially in the east, worsened and became unfriendly. Some returned to Wilderland, and dwelt beside the Gladden, becoming a riverside people of fishers." The Return of the King, LoTR Appendix A, Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isildur: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain So,......worsening climate, maybe through some indirect evil magic influence? Witch-king is rumored to be able to "make frost or thaw at will" according to Lossoth people.

[@rgmolpus]

Tolkien states a conflicting situation in Eriador. He describes that there are constant trading parties that travel thru the shire, on the Great Western road that runs from the Blue Mountains, thru the Shire, thru Bree, and east to ?Rivendell?. Yet, the road form Bree to Rivendell is described as being empty - even tho there was a notable amount of trade along the road; a perfect situation for small trading centers (well fortified!) to serve the Dwarven and Elvish traffic. the road form Bree to the southeast, heading to Rohan seemed to be abandoned; the Rhorimm didn't seem to be interested in trade (so where did they get the iron for all the horseshoes they needed?). The biggest problem with Eriador was that long-distance trade didn't exist. Rohan didn't trade with Bree and the Blue Mountains; Trade across the Misty Mountains seemed minor. Without trader; growth wasn't possible.

[@Catssonova]

I think Tolkien's propensity to leave vast areas of former conflict destroyed or abandoned comes from his experience at the Somme. There are World War 1 battlefields that are still unfit for human existence. In some respects you could imagine that the great evil that flourished in those areas had a major effect on lesser established places in the region. The plague itself was a potential caused by such evil. The old forest has Tom Bombadil and the Shire is just far enough that the worst suffering didn't quite reach there, which would explain why Bree is quite close to the Shire. I do like the LoTR online map of the area though. It does make some decent sense that after thousands of years some of the region has recovered into loose cities and settlements.

[@Peregrin3]

This is just pure speculation, but it's possible that after the Fall of Arnor the land was under some kind of curse that made it more dangerous and that curse was broken when Aragorn became King.

[@roger5059]

Also the fires that sauron caused during the second age there. We know that the brown lands south of mirkwood suffered a similar fate and were not able to support trees thousands of years after it, so while enedwaith and minhiriath already support woodland and patches of forest, they might still be too infertile for farming

[@blyslv1]

I also wonder if maybe Gandalf or even Radagast had asked the Rangers to discourage settlement. This would have had the benefit of providing a buffer zone for Hobbiton and letting the wilderness lie fallow to regenerate. It's questions and like these that make productions like the Rings of Power legitimate and worthwhile, albeit imperfect. I also think the harsh criticism it has garnered does a disservice to Tolkien and something he hoped to accomplish with his legendarium

[@DarthGandalfYT]

That's definitely an interesting idea. We know lands could be damaged and corrupted. Although obviously not to the same extent as places like Mirkwood or Mordor, perhaps the land suffered from minor afflictions like lower fertility or more aggressive fauna.

[@Alejojojo6]

It would make sense the earth was poisoned with evil and thus nothing really grew in a lot of areas, inhibating agriculture and thus population grow and expansion. In the Silmarillion it's said that the evil of Morgoth tainted the earth so why not would Sauron or the Witch King do the same in a smaller scale right? Could be.

[@kyyyni]

Impotence curse.

[@IbexWatcher]

As an Ecologist, my personal biggest gripe about Eriador's lack of change since the fall of Arnor is that a lot of the flora and fauna seem to also be stagnant. Elrond, Treebeard, and many others lament the deforestation of the region, but you'd think a thousand years or more of minimal land use would allow for a whole new forest to blanket the region? As far as I know, outside the Old Forest and the Chetwood we only hear about thickets and small groves across most of the area. Most of it seems to be portrayed as heathland, marshes, and degraded landscapes when it should have returned to a climax forest community with a ton of wildlife

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

Good point, but it absolutely falls in that area that Tolkien had a blindspot for. His world is one of decay and loss inherently, he romanticizes the past because the past was just better

[@johannes8131]

For the whole thing to make sense, there has to be some shift in climate. Be that of natural or supernatural causes. Not just for the lack of forest, but also for the lack of men - if the land was once fertile enough to support a bustling civilization, that would be a huge incentive for people to move in to the area. Historically, you don't see areas empty of people for extended periods unless that region becomes inhospitable. There's always hunter-gatherers, herders, or farmers who have population surplus and an expansive culture. But at least the Shire is a fertile place.

[@chesterbless9441]

I think somewhere in Appendix A it does say that the climate of Eriador worsened. Plus, their probably were some forests in Eriador that just weren't marked on the map.

[@cadian101st]

Iirc diverse forests are incredibly slow at reclaiming land on their own, and sometimes never do. The Pennine moorlands of northern England were likely deforested in the Neolithic or Bronze Age and never recovered despite not being used for agriculture. It seems areas prone to cold snaps like highlands or far northern locations seem to have even more problems with it, which could explain Eriador's relatively barren ecosystem

[@stevenclark2188]

Maybe being on the west side of a continent and west of some big mountains it's dry like the American southwest. Stuck in the rain shadow of the Misty Mountains.

[@eugene8498]

Remember Tom, Bert and Bill? The three ate at least "a village and a half", before Gandalf and co. stopped them. No wonder population growth had been nothing like in our age.

[@jamesverhoff1899]

Building on that point, we know that Eriador wasn't populated by Men, Elves, or Dwarves. It doesn't necessarily follow that it was entirely depopulated. We know that the Misty Mountains were home to colonies of Orcs, for example. One thing that has to always be kept in mind with LOTR is that the books were written from the perspective of the Hobbits, and that they are not necessarily reliable (or, more accurately, the facts are true but they aren't ALL the facts, as "Unfinished Tales" and some others make clear). It's entirely plausible that the area was occupied by nomadic or semi-nomadic populations of Orcs and Trolls. Typically yes, good farmland would be re-occupied and developed, driving the nomadic peoples off that land. But that's human-on-human conflict. I can easily see a population of Orcs (especially if you include wargs) keeping a significant amount of territory free of human, elven, and dwarven settlements. This is especially true if they established their domain early after the fall of the various kingdoms, as the populations of their enemies would be reduced.

[@squamish4244]

@@jamesverhoff1899 This doesn't even have to be speculated, for the final centuries of the Third Age. We know that 270 years before the War of the Ring, orcs invaded Eriador from the Misty Mountains and reached as far as the Shire before being stopped. After that, orcs and trolls continued to pose a threat. Three of the last four Chieftains of the Dunedain died violently, two recorded as being at the hands of orcs and trolls, including Aragorn's father.

[@sethbartley2212]

As a teacher, i really appreciate the "several million bananas" metric. The dry wit with a joke given no explanation, continuing without missing a beat as if nothing happened, really rewards paying attention. Nice.

[@moistmike4150]

As a boy captivated by Tolkien's world, I used to pore over his maps of Middle Earth and I would often wonder what it'd be like to visit the unpopulated regions of Eriador. Minhiriath seemed a cool place to set up a cabin and camp out.

[@perpetualpleasurist]

Great Comment

[@squamish4244]

I used to imagine myself sitting in a big chair in front of a blazing fire in my cozy Hobbit-hole. Still do :)

[@thomasalvarez6456]

Go to North Yorkshire or any moor in the UK.

[@richmondlandersenfells2238]

Place is crawling with moor trolls. Those guys are worse than the local bears that sleep underneath their caves.

[@madchessLeviathan]

if considering The Hobbit and the description of the troll cave it would seem that there are more to the lands in terms of population, because they have preyed uppon the local humans for a while. Maybe Isolated farmsteads was the norm outside the Shire and Bri in many areas except places like barrow down, weathertop and the old forrest, orcs and wolves also could periodically torment the lands. The Dunedain while protecting some areas comes across as fully nomadic covering large distances, so they likely did not stop all raiding, and we even have an accord of wolves invading the shire on one occasion. Climate and famine also means there is a limmit to how big the population can grow, Bilbo himself experienced one such famine and he was by all accounts well off by hobbit standards, less well of hobbits might have died in famines.

[@glitterboy2098]

the troll's cave was located alongside the great east-west road though, and iirc it is implied they've been waylaying travellers along said road.

[@thecappeningchannel515]

Yeah. But those travellers had to travel between more than Blue Mountains and Iron Hills... 😂 Isolated farms like Beorn and his folk and what we see in Children of Hurin after Morgoth wins the 5th battle is the only thing that makes sense. Tolkien says there are lots of hobbits roaming eriador outside the shire. Same seems to go for wandering elven bands and dwarven craftsmen/merchants.

[@sdstarr01]

I think that it is likely that Sauron had long term plans that hinged on Eriadors depopulation. If you look at the timeline of Gondor’s history you can detect a long term plan to erode Gondor’s strength. I always imagined that the same was happening to any kingdom that tried to get started in Eriador

[@zimriel]

That is absolutely 100% true of Arnor / Arthedain, and why Angmar was a focus of Sauron's will. A good question is if Sauron bothered with post-Arthedain attempts at civilisation here. I'd mentioned Tharbad. Did Sauron have something to do with its flood? or did his agents just keep the Rangers distracted so they couldn't help

[@rursus8354]

There absolutely is a small settlement of someone, a few day's marches east of Bree. It is mentioned as a tavern by Aragorn in the Trilogy, somewhere on the company's travel to Rivendell, before they reached the Weathertop.

[@markstott6689]

The Forsaken Inn.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Yep, the Forsaken Inn. Unfortunately, we don't know whether it was inhabited or not.

[@markstott6689]

@DarthGandalfYT Apparently, there are unpublished writings that state that Thorin and company find it abandoned on their eastward travels to Erebor.

[@valentintapata2268]

Forsaken Inn seems a clear sign of how dangerous the Middle World is. It could very well be a result of someone who wanted to expand beyond the vicinity of Bree.

[@alanpennie8013]

​@@DarthGandalfYT Forsaken means the same as abandoned. My guess is that it had been a hostel for travellers (like The Prancing Pony) for centuries but eventually fell into ruin.

[@Ishkur23]

Something else to add: Eriador in the Second Age was full of trees. Good for lots of races to live, especially men and elves. The Numenoreans slowly deforested it over the course of the Age to maintain their immense navy, such that by the Third Age the forests were all gone, except for a few woods here and there. The vast expanse of rolling grassland was not an inviting place for resettlement, to say nothing of the constant wars during the period. So it mostly remained empty.

[@mediocreman6323]

“If you want to live the life of an Eriador-colonist … you can! It's called _Siberia.” Thank you, THANK YOU for this closing remark! It is easy to read a book in your comfortable chair and be smart, when you do not have to consider how your ideas would stand up to reality.

[@rursus8354]

Because it was a dangerous place full of barrow wights, orcs, trolls and impotence spirits. Middle Earth was not made solely for humans, it was made for elves, dwarves and hobbits, that lived in pretty tight settlements. Only at the beginning of the Fourth Age something happened with Middle Earth, that made the humans explore, expand and multiply like rabbits, like they do in the Seventh Age.

[@moistmike4150]

"impotence spirits" would definitely keep the population from expanding.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Impotence spirits? Worst thing that can happen to you during a good Angbang

[@studentjohn]

Impotence spirits!? So much meaning gets lost in a comments section. Is that an autocorrect attack, or did I miss something? Is that what happened to the dwarves in the fourth age?

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

Yeah, Im not messing with Impotence Spirits. Now Impotant Spirits arent a problem. After all they're impotent. But Impotence Spirits, no thank you.

[@nathanbennett9999]

I'm sure I don't just speak for myself, the bananas clarification really made sense of the distance for me.

[@PeculiarNotions]

Great video. I'm always interest in Tharbad and the surrounding area. I don't know why it always crops up in my imagination as an interesting place about which I want to know more.

[@jamaigar]

Merp (middle Earth roleplay), the old dnd style game set in middle earth, had a full book dedicated to adventures in Tharbad. Merp has a shitton of fanfiction (it's from the wild west of tabletop RPGs: the 80s) but if you like the place so much you may enjoy the read. "Thieves of Tharbad" I think it was called. You can find it as a free pdf fairly easily as it's basically "abandonware", so to speak

[@PeculiarNotions]

@@jamaigar Thanks. I might look into that. I know the latest edition of The One Ring TTRPG also has Tharbad as a potential adventuring location.

[@drewastolfi6840]

​@PeculiarNotions yeah the One Ring has a great setting fir Tharbad

[@Cat_Woods]

I appreciate it when diehard fans are still able to see weaknesses in the material they're a fan of. Makes it feel more like fandom and less like a cult, if you know what I mean. Good job.

[@kylenetherwood8734]

On the opposite note, it's good that despite his acknowledgement of the flaw, he still came up with an in universe explanation. A lot of people only do one of these.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Thanks. I think it's important to be able to acknowledge flaws, even in the things that we love.

[@tiltskillet7085]

Well said!

[@samadams2203]

Amen. I feel uneasy in a room where every single person is in agreement. There should be at least some dissension and discussion. Makes things more interesting if nothing else.

[@demonzabrak]

@@samadams2203 I’d like to point out everyone in this comment section is agreeing. So, I fully disagree. I hate it when there is even the smallest variation of opinion amongst a group I witness. Take that.

[@BDawg-hy7pl]

I think there were still things like barrow wights, wargs, trolls, and occasional orc bands that kept people from leaving their homes. Maybe that’s why it didn’t bounce back

[@DwreckJ]

The land stayed empty for a thousand years for the same reasons the lands in and around Mordor stayed empty for much longer after Sauron lost the ring and “died”.

[@samaritan_sys]

Aragorn mentions that the Bree-folk live ‘within a day’s ride’ of mortal peril-I think it quite likely that Eriador in the Third Age was quite heavily populated with Orcs and other malicious creatures, even since the fall of Angmar. This would mean that the limited number of folk actually living there are all the Rangers could afford to protect, and that no kingdom of men could make the place safe short of a long military campaign that was too costly at the time.

[@simonmorris4226]

True thought! The stronghold of Mount Gundabad wasn’t far away. That’s why the Rangers were constantly hunting down raiding parties!

[@glitterboy2098]

iirc it is a days ride between the barrow downs and Bree. :) that's probably the peril aragorn meant. but since the shire records an invasion by orcs in TA 2747, well after the collapse of the northern kingdoms, as well as attacks by huge packs of wolves in during the fell winter of TA 2911, you can easily make an argument for there being plenty of dangerous things wandering the wilderness. it would explain why the Rangers are always so busy.

[@thecappeningchannel515]

Yes. The orcs won the war against Arnor after all

[@BanjoSick]

He meant the Barrow Downs

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

But that doesnt answer the question? Why arent there more rangers? The cossacs where always in danger of tatar raids or even armies and yet it took them only a few centuries to conquer the step, and they where hardy warrior but no match for men with the skill and expierience of rangers who live for over a 100 rather than a normal humans 60.

[@tsuchan]

Have we missed considering why orcs didn't settle there? Or maybe they did...?

[@rursus8354]

Orcs live underground, where they can avoid the terrifying sun. They settled the entire Misty Mountains. Plains would give them panic attacks.

[@tsuchan]

@@rursus8354 ah yes, that's it. Thanks

[@tiltskillet7085]

I think the old ICE/MERP authors struggled with this subject. IIRC the solution they came up with was that Eriador outside of the enclaves was kept empty by curses leftover from Angmar and the Witch King, and that it took until Sauron's destruction for those to begin to weaken. Not saying this is supported by the lore; it's just interesting the solutions that people invent to suit them. People who might have different primary concerns than Tolkien did, and are willing to make insertions. As you mentioned, another example is LOTRO, which went further and decided that Eriador wasn't even overwhelmingly empty after all.

[@thecappeningchannel515]

Yes, the wraiths in hills of Rhudaur was sent there by Angmar to keep it depopulated. ICE should just had the balls to make Eriador more cosmopolitsn than what we see during lotr. I mean there are dwarves in blue mountains. Two elvish realms (Lindon & Imladris). Shire has a postal service, lawyers, fire works and silverware. Bilbo orders childrens toys as far as from Erebor for his birthday. There are humans living in Bree, Dunland, those fishers on the cost and up north in the ice. Orcs, trolls and rangers everywhere and travelling bands of elves and dwarfs & 'more free roaming hobitt bands than the shire suspects' or however Tolkien said it.

[@Trigm]

On the Gondorian Colonist note, I personally figure that a influx (at least a steady trickle) of Gondorians was crucial to the reconstruction of Eriador. To effectively boost population, one would require outside help, as only the Dùnedain are actually going to start resettling places, and there is just not enough of them to do anything quickly. (Thanks, low birthrates) To rebuild the roads and cities, I can see Aragorn recruiting builders and workers from Gondor, people who can go find easy work on a Government project for a few years. Afterwards, many might choose to stay, and that is a population started there. As well, I could see incentives given to Gondorians who are willing to move north, such as subsidized transport and free land. For example, look at the American colonization of the great Plains, or the Roman Colonia populated by retired soldiers. I think the last is very analogous to what we might see, Gondorians who worked to rebuild Arnor taking the chance to settle there, or making use of a free pension after wars, north or south. You would also have bureaucrats who need to move north to manage the land, and that brings more settlers in.

[@markstott6689]

The easiest thing is to offer them a bonus of 100 acres of land in Arnor if they stay after completion of an engineering job for the Kingdom. Minimum stay of 10 years.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I like the idea of offering incentives to Gondorians to move to Arnor.

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

While I think that some Gondorian (as well as Rohirrim) colonists will settle in Eriador, I think that there was quite significanp population of wandering hunters, fishermen, herdsmen and even farmers in Eriador. After the kingdom of Arnors will be re-build and the lands become safe enough, those people will start to settle, trade with each other and with colonists and there will be an extremely rapid population grouth, because these people probably had very high birth rate to compensate high mortality and that mortality will be much lower after the re-building of Arnor.

[@markstott6689]

@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ Middle Men with no modern form of birth control will probably have large families. This is likely to be offset with high child and maternal mortality. With no elven healers around, even those of Numenorean descent will need to up the birthrate. Human life prior to the 20th century struggled with deaths due to birthing complications. I don't see the start of the Fourth Age being any different.

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

@@markstott6689 Numenorean and Gondorean medicine was quite advanced, though. At least if compared to the medicine available to the hunters and fishermen of Eriador. So higher birth rates of the peoples of Eriador + more advanced Gondorian medicine will lead to faster populatin growth. That's even not counting better tools (and so more productive agriculture), better trade (and so famines will be less likely), stronger armies (so less orc raids), good government (so less inner feuds) and so on. There were a lot of factors that hinder population growth in Eriador, and many of those can be negated by the restoration of the kingdom of Arnor.

[@fipse]

A very good video. I am glad you brought up the issues with demographics in Tolkien's world. It has always been a mayor annoyance for me why so many parts of Middle-Earth seemed to be depopulated and why men (elves and dwarves are well explained) do not expand a lot more over those many thousands of years.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

It makes more sense with Elves because of how they reproduce and how much energy it takes, but with men it makes zero sense. Eriador is far from mordor, that's where most men should prefer to live during the third age

[@bruttus11]

The reasons are there in the text, just look closely for them. The lost lands of the north are meant to be mysterious but they are explained. Re-population is not a given.

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

What "men" exactely should re-populate Eriador? Gondorians didn't have high birth rates (even population of Minas Tirith was slowly declining). Rohirrim tries to expand westwards in the lands between Isen ab=nd Adorn but were stuck in the war with Dunlendings, The men of Rhovannion weren't numerous enough. And the men of Eriador themselves lived in vry hard conditions, so their population growth was wery slow. The idea that population growth in Middle Ages was high is mostly true if we are speaking about periods of relative peace and prosperity, but the situation in many parts is much worse than during IRL Dark Ages, and in such conditions populations may stagnate or thousands of years.

[@fipse]

@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ The timescales are just too large. We are speaking about thousands of years. Populations bounce back quite fast in real life, even during war times. I know why it is that way, because the world is not supposed to be filled with numerous human kingdoms.

[@catintheoven]

@@fipse yes if there is land to fill human reproductive rates will do it. Great Britain (which Eriador should have the same climate as) was basically deforested and covered in fields 4000 years ago and Middle-Earth has much more advanced material culture and farming - and as you say, look at how Medieval populations sprang back from even worse plagues and wars than Tolkien had. It''s totally unbelievable that humans weren't swarming the place based on history. Ultimately Tolkien was building a christian fantasy world where things decline over time the further you get from creation - hence it was post-apocalyptic - and he needed it to suit the narrative. Its the same as "what was Aragorn's tax policy" - it's not really the point of the story and I can suspend my disbelief (whilst recognizing the issue exists)

[@annandune]

You mentioned the online game for LOTR and there are also tabletop RPGs. I ran a campaign using the latest of those ( The One Ring ) for a while and its latest iteration is set in Eriador. It uses ( as indeed do I with some ideas I've generated myself ) the idea of small settlements here and there, like villages or farmsteads, or stockaded settlements a little smaller than a town but perhaps larger than a village. If we take Aragorn's words absolutely literally, none of these probably would have existed. However, they way I think of it is that Eriador is a vast place, by which I mean really, really big. A village of ten huts or so might be completely bypassed by most people. The Rangers would probably be aware of it but then it might not last long. A couple of generations might carve out a living there before disease, cold weather, or an orc incursion finally deals with it. I could imagine several attempts being made, and perhaps the remnants of these would be seen as you travel throughout Eriador, with none of them ever really growing beyond a couple of hundred people before being destroyed in one way or another, and perhaps a few farmsteads still managing to just about survive along the Greenway, for example.

[@johnsantulli3811]

This might have been mentioned by someone else, but I believe the Dunlendings wanted to expand into Rohan because that land was once their’s before the Eotheod was gifted that land by Gondor, and they simply want to retake it.

[@pettytyrant2720]

Regarding your comment on Tolkien not taking proper account of population growth in Eriador over a thousand year period, keep in mind Tolkien based this part of the world on more or less Europe (starting at the Shire as a base point on roughly Oxfordshire, England). As such the landscape Tolkien knew around him and often visited was one covered in the remnants of the past; standing stones, barrows, trackways, abandoned villages from the Black Death, entire Roman towns now nothing more than grassy fields and more. Regions people once lived, were abandoned and never resettled, not in a thousand years and in some cases not for four thousand years or more. So from Tolkien's point of view there is nothing unusual in areas where once people dwelt long ago remaining empty of people long after. Britain is covered in such places. There are probably thousands of them. Europe many, many more.

[@bjornh4664]

Still, England went from a population of c. 2 million in 1086 to over 40 million by the time Tolkien wrote LotR.

[@pettytyrant2720]

@@bjornh4664 I think my own country of Scotland is a better example, it like Eriador underwent a mass forced loss of population (Highland Clearances in Scotland collapse of the north Kingdom and fall of Arnor in Tolkien) and neither population or land have recovered to this day, leaving areas of once settled and worked land empty. Eriador was also struck by worsening weather ( resulting in legendary cold snaps like the Long Winter ect) and disease with plague that swept through hitting the remaining population hard. Much like early Scotland Eriador was probably also a high fertility, high mortality society given the lack of medicine. In my own country the population grew incredibly slowly from about half a million to a million over a space of about a thousand years, compared to from the 1800's on when it began to double in size over only decades continuing to the present 5 million. But it shows how for long periods you can get this stagnation in population growth.

[@peterruf1462]

​@@bjornh4664and what was the population growth from 86 to 1086?

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

While Eriador wasn't well-populated, the degree of depopulation there is often overestimated, IMHO. There weren't that many organised polities and towns, but that doesn't mean that there were no people. The parts of Eriador described in the books (the lands between Bree and Rivendell and also Eregion) were mostly empty because they are vulnerable to the raids of the Orcs of Misty Mountains and the trolls of Ettinmoor. But all other parts were populated/ There were a lot of peoples in Eriador mentioned in the texts that you haven't mentioned in the video: 1. so called Outsiders (Hobbits who lived outside the Shire and Bree-land), 2. strangers that came to Bree from the South, 3. the ruffians of Sharkey, 4. people of Tharbad (the city itself was deserted but the people in nearby villages probably survived), 5. villagers eaten by the trolls in "The Hobbit", 6. secretive hunter-folk that lived in the woods of Minhiriath, 7. the Big People that caused trobles to the Hobbits of South-farthing. Even if some groups of people in that list are counted twice (or more) or are the same with some of the groups you have mentioned, that's quite a lot of people (and there also may be some completely unmentioned groups). The 100-league area around the Shire lack settled dwellings (=towns or permanent villages) of Men, but it doesn't mean there are no "wanderers" (such as Rangers, hunters and so on) there, who lived in temporary camps and villages.

[@Hugebull]

I gave this reply to another commenter, so I will repeat it to you as well. ---------------- For a bit of population context in Europe. During the War of the Spanish Succession (1701-1714 A.D) was the first war in western Europe that saw an army reach over 100 thousand men since Julius Caesar conquered Gaul (58-50 B.C) And London was the first city in Europe to reach 1 million inhabitants in the year 1800 A.D, which the ancient city of Rome had reached in 133 B.C. And when you look to the city of Rome itself. Having reached as much as 1 million people, to then suffer a series of calamities, falling down to just 30 thousand people. And it took the city of Rome 2000 years to regain its population. Reading first-hand accounts of people travelling to Rome during the Early and the High Middle Ages... has this really strange feeling to it. The seat of the Church being set in a city that was dominated by century old ruins. The term "The Dark Ages" has been fighting words for a long time. But the reality of the time was that it would feel post-apocalyptic. Cities that had been large metropolises in the days of the Roman Empire, would in many cases be nothing but crumbling ruins of an advanced bygone era. And you have to remember that the art of Roman concrete was entirely forgotten. Which meant the people of Medieval Europe would be covered by buildings that were built with technology that they could not replicate. In many ways, it would be like our modern world collapsing, and then for centuries, people would look at the large steel buildings, while they themselves having no idea how to make it. And, if you read about English politics during the Napoleonic Era. You find that there were some members of Parliament with an extreme interesting situation... where they had no constituency. Because there had been no update to fix representation with population for a very very long time. Which meant, they sat and represented Counties that used to exist hundreds of years ago, but the lands that made up that constituency had been entirely abandoned for a very very long time. Which created this really strange situation in Parliament.

[@KaiserlicheKonigliche]

@@Hugebull roman concrete was lost long before the fall of rome because it was unecconomcial to make. the romans switched to brick and stone because concrete was a vanity material. and the post-romans built plenty of large buildings themselves often more complex than anything the romans built. the dark ages is a charged term because it is inaccurate. technology did surpass the romans (infact it advanced faster after the romans fall), life got expontially better for everyone. Rome was stagnant and the "dark ages" ended that stagnancy mostly for the better. (also measuring things purely by the size of cities is misleading. while cities were much smaller overall population size recovered and became larger, by 1000 ad the population was signifcantly larger. measuring army size is also unhelpful as they have factors other than population that affect them)

[@Hugebull]

@@KaiserlicheKonigliche "Nuh-uh" is not a valid contribution to a conversation. The ancient capital of the greatest Empire known to their history, is depopulated and in ruins. A population of 1 million, then a population of 30 thousand. It would be like the New York metropolitan area going from 24 million people, down to 700 thousand people. That would strike you hard with a deep apocalyptic feel. Seeing decrepit skyscrapers and crumbling infrastructure all over the place. And this would be the seat of the UN. If this had been the case, you would instinctively know that the apocalypse has struck. Western Europe and North Africa was covered in ancient ruins from an Empire that had collapsed generations ago. From the north, the Pagan Norsemen came, raiding and colonizing the coast. And to the south there was a massive foreign Empire that ruled most of Hispania. And at the same time, they are dismantling the Eastern Roman Empire. The last holdout and remnant of the ancient glorious Empire. --------- You may sit there as an old Anglo-Saxon lord in England. You your hand you hold a book about Caesar and his conquest of England. You read about an elephant, an animal you have never seen, you have no idea how it looks like. You read about the expansions and the building of entirely new cities. About public works projects hiring thousands upon thousands of workers. About the construction of roads and bridges. About a massive stone wall that was built far to the north to keep the Picts out. Now, those days of old are gone. The Empire has long since disappeared. The Legions they provided to keep your lands safe, have been gone for hundreds of years. You think back to that time when you visited Rome in your youth, and you remember how the endless sea of broken houses made you feel. To the north in Northumbria and beyond, the Norsemen from across the ocean have taken over. They have colonized the lands and they have fully established themselves with their own rules and laws and society. And they want more. You hear stories from the Eastern Empire. Stories of disarray. Their armies defeated in the field, now paying tribute to lesser men. And you read about desperate guerilla warfare going on in the mountains of northern Spain against overwhelming forces. ------------- Does this not sound dark? Does this not sound apocalyptic? Of course Tolkien claimed to hate allegory, but it would be nonsensical to not realize the connections between the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire to that of Gondor and Arnor. And then looking at things like the "Fall of Gondolin" and the final fall of Constantinople. Where, in essence, the Medieval Christians came up against the enormous wall-breaking cannons of the Turks. And of course the connection between the Siege of Vienna in 1683 A.D, to that of the Siege of Gondor in TA 3019. -------------------- And when it comes to the size of armies. Again, you need to go more than a "Nuh-uh". Looking at the size of pre-industrial armies in Europe is a pretty good way to confirm the agriculture of an area. While the alliance of England, Holland, and Prussia, could put 100 thousand men together in the Low Countries. While France did the same on their side. At the same time, they could only put together armies of a few thousand in Spain.

[@KaiserlicheKonigliche]

@@Hugebull but i didn't just go "nuh-uh" to charracterise my argument as that is frankly baffeling and puts me off even responding to you as you are clearly acting in bad faith, but I'll do so regardless i pointed out that roman concrete was a lost technology before the fall and was not lost because of the fall but because it was not an economical building material. and i pointed out the post-romans had large buildings too, they would have been impressed certainly but my point was in this part is that it wouldn't have been like walking through ruins of stuff you can't make but walking through things similar to what you can make but out of weird materials. I also pointed out that the population increased after the fall of the empire, to counter your population figures and the whole 'dark ages are fighting words... But' because it should be fighting words. same goes for me pointing out tech surpassed the romans. the dark ages were called that because of the false idea that that advancement 'went backwards' after the fall of the empire when the opposite infact happend. and no the size of armies is not strictly related to agriculture, like i pointed out the population increased. what i didn't mention was it happened as a dirrect result of improved agriculture this is undisputed facts. No historian argues that agriculture was worse in the middle ages than in roman times, there is too much evidence against that idea, too much eviedence they had better agriculture (larger overall population, better diets of even the lowest classes, etc). the size of armies is determined by numerous factors: logistics, strategy, tactics, etc. logistics being more than just 'how much resources can we make' but also 'how many can we organise to take with us', 'how many can we protect' etc. medieval warfare had small armies in part because the dominant military ideology was one of long attritional warfare where pitched battles was to be avoided. there is also aspects like less beurocracy (which is needed for a large logistics chain) Also I never gave a toss about "it would feel post-apocalyptic" notise i didn't mention anything about those 'feelings' in my reply. my objection is the analogies and the implication that dark ages is accurate. If i were to comment on it, i would say it would feel post-post-apocalyptic, yes there are ruins of the old civilisation, but it wasn't exactly an empty wasteland either, civillisation was booming and blooming. the fall of the empire solidfied the start of the recovery from the apocalypse.

[@Hugebull]

@@KaiserlicheKonigliche There we go, that's a better comment. I have already given examples of places that were entirely depopulated in England into the 1800s. And for when cities could once more grow to the size as they could during the Roman Era. The logistics and the ability to pay and feed the great army of Marlborough, was done entirely by a small group of men. But such numbers could only be held together in places that had the local agricultural production to keep the army fed. If England during the Viking Age could have maintained just 1/20th of the force, then no Norsemen could ever have landed. Arnor was in decline for a long time. Now, the region has degraded to such a point that it cannot stand back up on its own. Taking what happened with the Western Roman Empire to an extreme. I do not subscribe to the idea of the "Dark Ages." I am sorry if you misunderstood. I was simply laying out some of the broad strokes that were going on during that era that would make one call it as such. But, if you go to Europe between, around, 500 A.D. And 750 A.D. So in between the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the birth of Charlemagne. You would see a broken world. And 250 years is a pretty long time. (Unless you believe in the conquests of King Arthur, but that's a different thing altogether, as it is a very different tale of Europe for that time). Arnor is just taking Europe after the fall of Rome, and fiddling with it for a fantasy world. Of course Europe rose again. And so did Arnor. The ability to do logistics is a part of the whole. When you look at Classical warfare, with how they would utilize massive works to conquer cities. Or just tale a look at Caesar's conquest of Alsia. This was done in a way that the peoples of the early Middle Ages could only dream of doing. In your books you would read about armies of 100 thousand strong. Something you can't even dream of. You read of Greek Fire. You read of Archimedes and his Heat Ray. You read about the wide deployments of Roman siege engines. And public projects. The building of large and impressive Cathedrals did not start until the 900s. Which is over 400 years since the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Westminster Abbey was started in 960. Strasbourg Cathedral in 1015. Winchester Cathedral in 1079. Chartres Cathedral in 1145. Notre Dame in 1063. Amiens Cathedral in 1220. York Minster in 1230. And with Roman construction. Such as Trajan's Bridge, which was the longest arch bridge for a thousand years. (although it only lasted for 150 years). Or Constantine's Bridge over the Danube. The Romans built absolutely incredible dams. We have the dome of the Pantheon. Which was the largest dome in the world for over 1700 years. We see tunnels, such as the Cocceius Tunnel, which is 1000 meters long. We have outright industry, with things like the Barbegal water mill complex. Yes, by 1000 A.D, one could consider Europe back on track again. But that's half a millennium after the fall of Western Rome. But even then, it was splintered and disunited. Tolkien may have dreamt of a new restored Roman Empire out of the Middle Ages, as a sort of "Mega-Charlemagne Empire", with a united Catholic Europe. But hey.

[@Sockenmodulator]

There may well have been several individual homesteads and scattered mini-villages. If you look at real history, this was also the preferred settlement method of the Germanic tribes for a long time before the beginning of the Middle Ages (and probably also during the first half of the Middle Ages), while the neighboring Celts already partly lived in comparatively larger communities or even cities. Also some details in the Hobbit indicate that there was at least more population in Eriador than beyond the mountains in Wilderland...

[@DarthGandalfYT]

I actually agree with this. The information we have about Eriador comes from in-universe sources, so it's very possible that there were small, remote villages and homesteads that existed out in the wilderness. They were just likely nowhere near as big as Bree or anywhere near as important.

[@lorddervish212quinterosara6]

I would love a strategy-sim game set in Eriador trying to rebuild arnor, I imagine a mod for Mannor Lords would kick ass

[@Jarethenator]

I think I might interpret some of the reasons why this might be the case as a dark magic version of what happened post WWI, and thus also WWII. This meaning, vast tracks of land becoming inhospitable due to mines, buried shells, etc. Essentially, as in real life, some regions became hazard zones post war. Perhaps 600 years of war by a very powerful evil kingdom leaves marks on the land that don't easily heal or leave hidden dangers behind that would make the region hard to inhabit by future generations.

[@simontaylor2143]

The most likely people I would have thought of to expand into Eriador between the fall of Arnor and Sauron resurfacing would be Gondorians trying to put more space between Mordor and them (especially after ithilien was abandoned) and Rohan who there at the doorstep and would view it as free real estate As you point out the long-term abandonment of Eriador is pretty unrealistic, though having monsters like trolls wargs and goblins threatening the boarders, and barrow wights haunting cardolan, would certainly disincentivise expansion more than anything in the real world

[@WhoIsCalli]

This was fab. Thank you. I’m really enjoying your vids!

[@ydkaachillesa9353]

Remark on troubles with Tolkien worldbuilding is spot on. The same goes with "human geography"- for example, representants of many races (elves, Gimli, Aragorn, Eomer etc., basically everyone except hobbits) seem to share identical knightly/warrior values of one's honour, which is sometimes visible in their encounters. These values seem to be universally understood and uphold, to the point that Gimli almost challanges Eomer for a duel. This is of course trace of Tolkien's fascination with Norse (and possibly Welsh) epic. Yet in reality, such behaviour would be only confined to very small elite, and very difficult to keep even over such distances, especially over empty Eriador.

[@stevekluth9060]

Very much enjoyed this video. As a retired cartographer, I loved the maps showing population distribution. One minor complaint: the Dunlendings had already settled in parts of Western Rohan and Isengard when Eorl and the Eotheod were gifted Calenardhon/ Rohan, despite it technically being part of Gondor. This is why the Dunlendings continued to attack Rohan for basically its entire history.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

Ā the classic give away lands you dont control.

[@jameskent5347]

I think the fact that there were roving bands of orcs, ghosts that put you to sleep then end you, and trolls that will eat you for lunch. Even with a thousand years, I question the ability to stay there long term.

[@Zorro9129]

With what happened to Eriador and it remaining a depopulated region after an unreasonably long amount of time, it reminds me of the Fallout setting.

[@terrenusvitae]

In a lot of the myths that inspire Tolkein, the strength or weakness of a land is a reflection of the king. When the king is vigorous the land prospers, when he is ill, the land suffers too. Eriador has no king at all and thus perhaps this is why conceptually, it is a dying land.

[@chrisstorrer]

This is A very important comment

[@wawaweweb1811]

There may have been some small expansion in the later part of the third age. Note the unfortunate farmer and his family that fell victim to the trolls in The Hobbit. Aragorn also tells of The Forsaken Inn which is east of Bree. A few hardy, or fool-hardy, settlers are often the precursors to larger settlements.

[@balthus7579]

I always thought it was strange that in middle-earth there is no overgrowth of population and more countries looking at thousands of years

[@jamaigar]

It's a fantasy trope that Tolkien used that I've seen a lot in dnd worlds (I'm unaware if it already existed before Tolkien). Big magic war/cataclysm/events constantly resetting the world, keeping it on similar themes, aesthetics or structure. In dnd makes sense in a practical sense. You wanna keep the "branding" and style of a world that players like while at the same time advancing history so it feels alive and immersive. You can also see this in videogames, like in wow. Tolkien probably was more about the themes and aesthetics for the sake of them

[@forickgrimaldus8301]

Yup its weird and dumb but its part of the Theme called the Wasteland as in the "health" of the land is tied to the ruler but in this case there is no Ruler so there is no population. But TBF this does happen IRL but for more practical reasons.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Overpopulation happens sometimes. It's actually stated that one of the main reasons why the Eotheod were so eager to move to Rohan was because their own land in the upper Vales of Anduin was becoming overcrowded. Numenor is also described as becoming overcrowded. But yeah, sometimes the whole idea of population growth seems to be blatantly ignored.

[@simonmorris4226]

Think of all the things they hadn’t got like healthcare or advanced agriculture. Chuck in the malevolence of Sauron and his minions and I should think the attrition rate would severely limit or even prevent population growth.

[@KaiHung-wv3ul]

@@DarthGandalfYT I mean, the human population stayed relatively the same for thousands of years, so it isn't THAT unbelievable.

[@robertmosley3127]

Speaking from memory (I could be entirely mistaken!) I seem to remember there being some indication that the lingering effects of Sauron's sorcery had something to do with the desolation in this region from the time of the wars of the Second Age. I think it was something to the effect that Sauron operated something like a scorched/salted earth policy making it difficult for crops to grow. He was also able to manipulate the climate making life in general more inhospitable. Finally I seem to recall something about sending plagues out across the land. I could be completely wrong and people are welcome to correct me if I am!

[@primal1233]

Nice video, good job

[@brethilnen]

Yep Tolkien kept forgetting about population growth

[@Alejojojo6]

Its just because it didnt match up with the idea Tolkien had for Eriador to be unified with Gondor with King Elessar. If Eriador had been populated, it would have had its own administrative bodies (States) and thus why would they unify with the King of Gondor? They would have wanted to keep independent.

[@timmerk7363]

I think one of the things we need to consider when talking about population numbers in Middle Earth is the definition of settlements. In real life Europe in Late Antiquity and the early Middle Ages, there were areas where villages were not the main form of settlement, but smaller settlement. Only in the High Medieval Age, the village became the norm (the process is also referred to as villagization). And one of this contributing factors was religion, something missing in Middle Earth. I think three villages are not enough to sustain a city like Bree, but if there is a sizeable amount of even smaller stuff, it makes more sense.

[@valentintapata2268]

Bree in the book is not a city, it's a small agricultural town. Ofcourse realistically in times of Arnor Bree should be a bustling fortified city given how important its location is.

[@SvengelskaBlondie]

"Several million bananas" Makes me think of a local ad where they showed the measurement of 2m in three ways. One was by using six kebab rolls, the second was polka candy sticks and the third was 30 packs of matchboxes.

[@ulbingelias6894]

Eriador is the middle earth equivalent to Tschernobyl

[@aaronhpa]

Gondorian resettlement of just 10.000 people would do wonders in accelerating Arnor growth.

[@Archagor]

Your videos are always insightful! How would you write a film or tv adaptation of the Gondorian Kin-Strife? Would Castamir have any redeeming qualities or even be compelling character? Would Eldacar have reservations about rebuilding and ruling a kingdom that has treated him less than kindly? What would be the demographics and logistics that led up to the Siege of Osgiliath and the Battle at the Crossing of Erui? You did a great video in your War in Middle Earth series. I just want to know more on your take of the Kin-Strife.

[@CursedAnqxl]

they did say in the ten years he ruled, he ruled like a tyrant that few people liked by the time eldacar brought an army back to gondor, and castamir was a usurper that took the throne of gondor because eldacar was half northmen and not 100% dunedain. now I won't say it is impossible to find a good trait about him, but given what we know, it would be quite difficult. as for the kin-strife, umbar, castamir's sons, the corsairs, etc. that is a very interesting part of the middle earth history nonetheless, and feels like it is not covered enough in comparison to other things in lord of the rings and middle earth.

[@Archagor]

@@CursedAnqxl Agreed. I think its interesting to think about the context that these characters are in. Like, what teachings were passed down from the Faithful concerning the interactions between the Numenoreans and the other middle-men? Other than lifespan, how much different were the Dunedain and the middle-men during the early Third-Age. Were these differences, as well as the interactions between the Gondorians, the Easternlings, and the Northmen at the time, so influential on Gondorian society and nobility like Castamir that nothing less than pure Numenorean blood was necessary to preserve the line of Kings and thus the prosperity of the realm? Eldacar showed no signs of being any less than his forbearers, so this could very well be primarily an example of human prejudice and folly. As for the events of the Kin-Strife itself, I also wished Tolkien had more time to expand on it. I also think it would have been interesting to see the dynamics that led up to the siege and eventual sacking of Osgiliath, like how much the garrisons at Minas Anor and Minas Ithil did to defend the capital. The Gondorians did fight for five years before the capital was taken, so maybe the two fortresses ran out of resources or were somehow compromised.

[@amsfountain8792]

Middle earth population is too low for medieval standards. Even England or Spain, being much smaller, had several million people living there. As population depends on farm land my only explanation is that Eriador is depopulated because weather is too cold to grow food so only a few people could live off the land more like Siberia than Europe. The Shire being the only place were good weather exists. Also there are many dangers as wolves, orcs and other evil creatures roaming around.

[@stevenwetherbee7573]

My headcanon had always been there were men around in Eriador but they were not organized politically which is why there were almost no towns.

[@amsfountain8792]

Yeap, thats my take too. They can be several hundred thousands people living in Eriador but to widely dispersed. Eriador alone can be as big as Europe.

[@squamish4244]

Obviously, Tolkien found the idea that Eriador had been a wasteland full of danger for a solid millennium, with three fallen kingdoms, to be an effective storytelling tool. The first time I read LOTR, I was struck by one of its first sentences, "But there had been no king for a thousand years..." Damn. Things have really gone sideways here. The same with the wording on the map, "The Lost Realm of Arnor." Now, Tolkien just needed to justify that fact. Gandalf had gone to Dol Guldur just after the fall of Arthedain and driven Sauron to the East, thus beginning the Watchful Peace, a time of relative safety in Eriador when the Chieftains of the Dunedain all lived out their full reigns. That would have been the ideal time to repopulate Eriador. However, after 400 years, Sauron returned, and Eriador slowly became more dangerous again. Eriador never got the chance to get back on its feet.

[@bumblingbureaucrat6110]

I'd like to point out that when the Hobbits return to Bree there's already a lot of people traveling the road and they have a talk with Barliman and he's a bit wary about all the new people talking about settling Eriador and most of them come up from the South.

[@Hotline_101]

It should be noted that the effects of depopulation seem to have decreased as you go south. Supposedly, there were still (non-Dunedain) natives living in Tharbad up until 2912 when the snow melt from the Fell Winter caused a massive flood that destroyed what was left of the bridge and flooded the town, after which Tolkien describes it as “ruined and deserted”. It’s plausible there’s still men living in the larger regions of Minhiriath and Enedwaith. We’re just never explicitly told so.

[@thatguyinelnorte]

The idea that Eriador could be resettled while Sauron lived is not realistic.

[@mrgopnik5964]

Eriador may be the equivalent of real life Siberia. The land is largely inhospitable and unsuited for traditional farming. The Dumlandings in that case can probably be compared to the Tatars, who migrated from their original homeland, in search of a better climate. What seems like a missed opportunity is not adding actual nomadic tribes in the area.

[@roystonpapworth9520]

Wasnt the argument always that Tolkien only included towns and settlements pertinent to the story and that those that didn't impact on the tale were just ignored? We are reading of course from a Hobbits perspective

[@joaquinollo407]

I'm running a merp campaign in Arnor, in the north downs specifically, and my explanation for this emptiness has been a curse laid down upon this land by the witch king, prior to his defeat. The emptiness of this region makes for a great place for ttrpg campaigns. It's almost post apocalyptic.

[@cavetroll666]

thanks for the content cheers from Toronto Canada.

[@crashman1344]

I liked the background music. What is it from?

[@mateuszslawinski1990]

One thing puzzles me: in "Hobbit" Bilbo travels through quite populated areas until the company encounters trolls. Meanwhile in LoTR Bree is described as an island in empty land.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

The Hobbit is full of inconsistencies, but to be fair, I just re-read this passage, and everything seems to match up. They stop encountering people once they enter the "Lone-lands", which is never placed on the map, but seems to be the wilderness between Bree and the Mitheithel. They don't encounter the Trolls until they cross the Last Bridge, the same bridge Frodo crosses over 80 years later.

[@lordnaarghul]

The reason it's abandoned and stays that way is actually pretty simple: there's simply nothing left out there. The Numenoreans settled there because they had the gumption, means, and numbers to cultivate it. After the wars of Angmar, there's really nothing to return to but old, ruined castles. Any resources out there would take expensive and lengthy development. And the people there simply don't have the numbers. The only ones left ended up clustered in the towns around Bree, or ended up in Rhovanion or Dunland. They never came back because there was nothing worth returning to.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

But places like the Shire and Bree seem quite prosperous. The land is good for farming. With no neighbors, it's difficult to see why such areas wouldn't expand through natural population growth into the uninhabited regions surrounding them. At least along the rivers and old roads.

[@Vanalovan]

I agree that Tolkien’s weaknesses include building a realistic material society. However, if I remember correctly (and I’m foggy so I’m open to being corrected) France/Gaul’s population never fully recovered from Cesar’s conquest until the modern age. If I’m right about that, there is certainly precedence for this sort of long term decimation. I think also the Levant has been known to follow a several pattern but I think those cycles are generally measured in centuries, not a millennia.

[@spacemissing]

You seem to have a very good perspective on this matter.

[@differous01]

"In our world" [17:04] After the Harrowing of the North left Newcastle empty, is was soon re-populated from Jutland. But there were no barrow wights or man-eating trolls for future Geordies to worry about. The emptiness of Eriador, which the hobbits pass through, is more akin to an earlier time when Bryn-ach still had Bears, but only a legend of a high king of that name (Arthur=Arctos=The Bear).

[@kalles8789]

Maybe Eriador is depopulated because of "magic and fate". It is an ideal place to live there when you try to hide. And so the One Ring is kept in secret. Tolkiens world depends not only from economy and demography, it is a rather strange place where everything seems to be determined in some sense. The wars with the witch king depopulated Erador, they teared down the kingdoms of men, as Sauron intended. But in the other hand: we know that Saurons victories and arrogance alway have a dialectical counterpart.

[@randomelite4562]

Honestly, I feel like this sort of question could apply to the whole of middle earth. At times it feels akin to humanity’s migrations out of Africa, but instead of wooden spears and stone hatchets, we had chainmail and steel

[@Uncle_Fred]

It's a false feeling. Eriador was barren from conflict, but the east and south of Middle Earth is said to be inhabited with quite a few kingdoms of men.

[@randomelite4562]

@@Uncle_Fred I don’t think an emotion itself be false lol, nor is the premise of my comment. Mankind learned metalworking from the dwarves and/or elves, long before they even migrated to the westlands past the Sea of Rhun, and they pass through vast wildernesses and lands that are largely devoid of people or lived by peoples who were extremely spread out. I feel like it’s perfectly natural for someone, including myself ofc, to *feel* like the world of Middle Earth is empty people and civilization-wise.

[@michaelhoffmann2891]

Counterpoint: hunter-gatherers or subsistence cultures have very slow population growth. As for the effect of civilisation collapse: after the fall of the Roman Empire in the West it took over a thousand years before some major cities (London, Rome, etc) would reach the population levels during the height of the Empire, and that thanks to the Industrial Revolution. The Bronze Age collapse also had some areas never recover (climate change can contribute to some regions never being as productive for agriculture again).

[@squamish4244]

In the first painting of the Shire, that Hobbit-hole is terrifyingly close to a creek, for a Hobbit!

[@xhagast]

In LotR and The Hobbit , Tolkien talked about men and Dwarves living in the outskirts of the Shire. Also, Bilbo's Trolls destroyed several villages. The Shire and Bree might be all that could survive. Both under the protection of the Rangers.

[@bruttus11]

The brilliance of Tolkien is the mystery that is left within his complex world. We are not meant to know the exact population numbers and exactly what happened to Eriador and many other places, just was we don’t know all the details of lost fallen civilisations today. This is not a flaw, but intentional. Further, despite your claims in the video, it is not uncommon for areas not to be repopulated after disastrous events to their previous scales. This only usually happens if the civilisation doesn’t collapse, and Eriador does largely collapse, with only pockets remaining. There is no reason why it should recover, especially with the continuing threat of Angmar to the north. If a land cannot be fortified and secured then it usually is not repopulated, and clearly Gondor could not re-establish the northern kingdom. It couldn’t even secure the lands or Rohan before giving it over to the Rohirirm, let alone their more northern lands. There are plenty of reasons why these lands were re-established as before if you look for them, and it is not a fault of Tolkien to not spell out explicitly what is meant to be more subtle and mysterious.

[@elvacoburg1279]

Another possible reason for the lack of re-settlement of Eriador by the remaining peoples, might be that due to the stated dangers in the area, population growth might have been very low, and therefore removing the need to expand. Also, in the same way that Archet, Combe and Staddle might be expansions from Bree, we do not know how many of the villages in the Shire were settled in 1601TA when Marcho and Blanco led the hobbits there. So additional settlements might have been slowly added to the Shire as the population grew, whether these new settlements meant that the Shire grew or whether they were in the area of the original land grant is a different matter. The problem, from our point of view, is that were do not know the number of hobbits that originally settled the Shire, and likewise we do not know the number of people in each of the other groups remaining after the fall of the kingdoms of Arnor. We can make guesses of the populations at the time of the Hobbit or Lord of the Rings, based on the descriptions of settlements, but they are just that, guesses.

[@Edward-nf4nc]

Whilst a thousand years is a long time, it's not that long if you are a habbit. Most hobbits live to around one hundred, meaning one thousand years is not that long. Consider also that the current and the next, what? three generations after the Angmar wars would be spent recovering after the wars. Also, I think The Shire did expand slightly as the Tooks lived in a large area in The Shire. Also, there were not many hobbits when The Shire was formed. Also, if you look on The Shire map the South Farthing shows only 'to Longbottom and Sarn Ford'. Clearly The Shire expanded over time. As for the Fisher Folk, they would only expand along the coast and there were farmsteads if I remember correctly. The farmsteads and Fisher Folk would be able to support each other. There was no reason to expand further. The Fisher Folk and the farmsteaders can trade and look after themselves. Bree trades with The Shire and other villages and can look after each other and Buckland trades with The Shire and The Shire can look after itself. As for the Dunlendings, they have a large area and can look after themselves. Also, going North for them takes several days, but there is good land in Rohan, which is easy travelling. Basically, Eriador is largely uninhabited because the inhibited areas can look after themselves.

[@reaver1414]

My biggest problem with the movies is the southern part of Gondor being cut out. They made Minas tirith all of Gondor instead of just the capital city. Which led to the undead army jumping off the ships. A similar issue happened in the second movie with Rohan, because they didn't do a good job showing all of Rohan that led to the elves at helms deep. In two towers Rohan had hundreds of fighters instead of thousands but then in the third movie suddenly they have 6000 riders to go help Gondor

[@glitterboy2098]

at least in LOTRO, the impression one gets is that the population of the region is largely people that would fall under the definition of "breelander", and with bree having more widely spaced sub-communities than generally assumed, or are people who have moved up from the south creating new places (as is mentioned several times by both hobbits and breelanders in the book, both in a bit of foreshadowing early in fellowship, and as hints towards the state of the shire when they come back to bree at the end of return of the king) That said due to game mechanics needs they don't really follow up on this much.

[@caelestigladii]

From a reality point of view, Tolkien may have just said: "It is what it is." And I like that. A mystery of some sorts. From my head canon point of view, without being a lore nerd, the area might have become a thick jungle, the the Amazon.

[@jeffagain7516]

Thanks for putting thought to this topic and mentioning (briefly) something I always found odd and curious. That being the Dunlendings. Though I realize they were of the opinion that the Rohirrim had stolen the lands of Calenardhon from them and wanted it back, considering the trouble such wars would create, you would think it far easier to expand Westward, since a great deal of Eriador was open for uncontested settlement. You mentioned the fertility of the soils in such lands being sparse and frugal, which I suppose is as good a reason as any for not doing so, heh. Cheers! And thanks again. :)

[@erikabutler6893]

To be fair, there are some passages in LOTR that explain this. In "The Council of Elrond", Aragorn speaks of his duties as a ranger, expanding on what you quoted in the video: "If Gondor, Boromir, has been a stalwart tower, we have played another part. Many evil things there are that your strong walls and bright swords do not stay. You know little of the lands beyond your bounds. Peace and freedom, do you say? The North would have known them little but for us. Fear would have destroyed them. But when dark things come from the houseless hills, or creep from sunless woods, they fly from us. What roads would any dare to tread, what safety would there be in quiet lands, or in the homes of simple men at night, if the Dúnedain were asleep, or were all gone into the grave? "And yet less thanks have we than you. Travellers scowl at us, and countrymen give us scornful names. 'Strider' I am to one fat man who lives within a day's march of foes that would freeze his heart, or lay his little town in ruin, if he were not guarded ceaselessly. Yet we would not have it otherwise. If simple folk are free from care and fear, simple they will be, and we must be secret to keep them so. That has been the task of my kindred, while the years have lengthened and the grass has grown." Of course, the fat man he's talking about is Butterbur, owner of the Prancing Pony in Bree. Butterbur mentions in "Homeward Bound" that over the past winter, "Wolves were howling around the fences last winter. And there's dark shapes in the woods, dreadful things that it makes the blood run cold to think of. It's been very disturbing, if you understand me." Of course, this was a recent development, but it supports Aragorn's point. So it seems that despite its distance from Mordor, Eriador has been home to a number of supernatural threats that only the Dúnedain could belay and that might have come at a huge cost to their numbers. The implications are that after the War of the Ring, Eriador could finally be repopulated.

[@squamish4244]

Eriador couldn't catch a break. Disasters continued into the late Third Age. The Long Winter covered all of Eriador and even Rohan with snow and bitter cold for five months in 2758 and 2759. Many froze to death or died in famines, and floods came in the spring. The Fell Winter struck in 2911-2912, and when it ended, huge floods destroyed Tharbad and heavily impacted Enedwaith. By the time of LOTR, Bilbo is the only Hobbit alive to remember the Fell Winter.

[@Amadeus8484]

Aragorn recombined Arnor and Gondor, with the emerging building projects, newfound peace and development of food and trade, the Dunedain would have been able to have large families and much reduced casualty rates.

[@chesterbless9441]

Thanks for making a video on my question. One idea I had is that Men are stuck in a rut in the Third Age. We now the Elves waned as the Men waxed and upsurped their position, and it's possible that Men were given more life energy during the First Age so they could quickly multiply and spread out. So during the Third Age, perhaps Men have waned since the First Age but haven't fully upsurped the Elves yet. In other words, even though Men had much life energy in the First Age, they lost it in the Third Age and weren't fully "recharged" until some time in the Fourth Age. That could help explain why Men seem so bad at repopulating Middle-earth other than Sauron's human subjects and the Numenoreans (maybe one reason the Valar made the Numenoreans was to ease the transition as Elves quickly waned and Men slowly waxed)

[@Funtimeshappy099]

What's the reference on "the Angle?" I can't recall that passage or geographic location, please help.

[@chesterbless9441]

I think it's the land between the rivers Loudwater and Hoarwell. If I remember correctly, the Appendix A or B mention that some hobbits briefly lived there, and that most Rangers lived there too.

[@josepetersen7112]

You're thinking of modern population rates; global population growth was quite slow through the middle aged.

[@ingold1470]

Ambition is likely the largest factor, in our world colonisation was often done by private interests like joint-stock companies or Conquistador warbands. In the Thirteen Colonies the British government was actively trying to stop colonisation further west of the Appalachians and got a revolution for their troubles.

[@jeffmacdonald9863]

I'd say the model that's hard to argue against is the "colonisation further west of the Appalachians" version. European colonization of the Americas took huge resources to get people there in the first place, but once established, it was really hard to keep those people from going beyond the existing settlements to find unclaimed land to farm. Obviously continued immigration played a big role there, but over time internal population growth would have done the same. And Eriador has a thousand years to work with.

[@theskycavedin]

You said that things can recover in our world pretty quickly but that's not always true. Ireland still to this day hasn't reached it's pre-blight population numbers. There are many examples from the real world of places that never reached there former standing.

[@toddb2581]

Former kingdom of Arnor was cursed by the witch king from Carn Dum. The rangers are from Rhuduar Kingdom. Cardolan and Arthedian had lords and soldiers 50 years before the Hobbit. A kingdom was made with what is left of cardolan and Arthedian princess of cardolan and Prince of Arthedian tried to rebuild Arnor. They battled the army of orcs and won at weather top. After the battle resting on top of weather top a fog from the downs came to weather top they were kill by Kumulel and his easterlings army. Having cursed downs in the west and south and mt gram, and carn dum sending raiding parties made rebuilding very hard.

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

What do you think happend in Eriador betwen 1636 and 1851?The Reins of Arvegil and Arveleg ll were pacefull but Arnor still weaken.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

I don't think there's a great explanation tbh. There's really no reason the population wasn't expanding, I mean Eriador should have contained a large kingdom by that point already

[@talesoftheeldar8688]

@@Captain_Insano_nomercy The time of Arvegil and Arveleg ll fascinates me.Somethink must have happend?

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

@@talesoftheeldar8688 I'm sure Tolkien would have elaborated if he had gotten around to it, but I think he left a few things unattended

[@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ]

Wasn't there the Great Plague in 1636? While Arthedain wasn't as devastated by it as Cardolan, the population still needed some time to recover. Also, the war with Angmar never stopped. There just weren't major invasions and battles during that period because both kingdoms were recovering from the plague, but small war never ceased.

[@zimriel]

Probably the best option of rebuilding some civilisation in that hinterland was Tharbad, and maybe they even tried; but we'll never know since they got flooded TA 2911. (War of the Ring is ~3018-19, for reference.) Eriador is one of those places like Pleistocene Europe, bad winters are bad.

[@zimriel]

One issue with Tharbad: they deliberately maintained an independence from Gondor, beyond the autonomy of Rohan. So Tharbad were perhaps aloof to the Rangers as well. The Rangers did venture south to aid the Rohirrim (Aragorn fought with Theoden's father); I assume if they wanted to marry, they married mostly Gondorian women. I'm sure the Rangers were happy to have Tharbad at least not actively hostile to the smallfolk of Eriador (notably hobbits), but it seems Tharbad didn't prepare for the winters and the floods, and didn't consult the Rangers on the deeper history of their realm. So, they collapsed.

[@TheEvertw]

Love that final comment. Truth is, these days there isn't much need nor desire to go live in places without all the amenities of established human settlements. Unless there is famine, oppression or overpopulation. Things were the same in Middle Earth.

[@lars9925]

I have a question. You said that "with the exception of the Blue Mountains, there was nowhere left for them [the dwarves] to really expand in Eriador anyway," and you're not wrong, but what about the Ered Nimrais? Why were the dwarves, throughout all these Ages, never interested in them, apart from Gimli, who accidentally discovered the Glittering Caves and later even established a colony there? Why did the dwarves ignore this mountain range that was far from dragons, orcs, and balrogs and that hadn't been harvested empty like the Blue Mountains?

[@stevejohnson3357]

There were cities in the late Roman Empire that are still ruins today. If a settlement isn't needed, it won't last.

[@Hession0Drasha]

But the area nearby didn't stay empty for long

[@Hugebull]

@@Hession0Drasha For a bit of population context in Europe. During the War of the Spanish Succession (1701-1714 A.D) was the first war in western Europe that saw an army reach over 100 thousand men since Julius Caesar conquered Gaul (58-50 B.C) And London was the first city in Europe to reach 1 million inhabitants in the year 1800 A.D, which the ancient city of Rome had reached in 133 B.C. And when you look to the city of Rome itself. Having reached as much as 1 million people, to then suffer a series of calamities, falling down to just 30 thousand people. And it took the city of Rome 2000 years to regain its population. Reading first-hand accounts of people travelling to Rome during the Early and the High Middle Ages... has this really strange feeling to it. The seat of the Church being set in a city that was dominated by century old ruins. The term "The Dark Ages" has been fighting words for a long time. But the reality of the time was that it would feel post-apocalyptic. Cities that had been large metropolises in the days of the Roman Empire, would in many cases be nothing but crumbling ruins of an advanced bygone era. And you have to remember that the art of Roman concrete was entirely forgotten. Which meant the people of Medieval Europe would be covered by buildings that were built with technology that they could not replicate. In many ways, it would be like our modern world collapsing, and then for centuries, people would look at the large steel buildings, while they themselves having no idea how to make it. And, if you read about English politics during the Napoleonic Era. You find that there were some members of Parliament with an extreme interesting situation... where they had no constituency. Because there had been no update to fix representation with population for a very very long time. Which meant, they sat and represented Counties that used to exist hundreds of years ago, but the lands that made up that constituency had been entirely abandoned for a very very long time. Which created this really strange situation in Parliament.

[@enmunate]

Then how does Phoenix exist?

[@kevinknight287]

I think we get a sense of a vacant apocalyptic world showing that wars are bad business for the world in general because Tolkien serving in WWI saw many ruinous places and towns that were vacated or its population was wiped out. He manages to really give us a sense of what he saw when you read deeply into what he says.

[@sethron2398]

I think another reason could be the environmental catastrophe the Numenoreans caused through deforestation of the entire region. Before their arrival, the overwhelming majority of the region was forested.

[@daytwaqua]

Is that how Eriador is pronounced? I thought it was pronounced identically to "Area Door", just without a pause between area and door.

[@Trigm]

Yes, it is. In Elven languages, the stress falls on the second to last syllable if it is heavy (long vowel or consonant cluster) but if it isn't, then it falls on the 3rd to last syllable. Thus: erIador, isILdur, anCAlima, elenTÀri

[@jimanyon8143]

Good overview for the practical reasons, but it misses out on the mythical ones. The rings of power do change the flow of the ages. They do prolong the stay of the Elves (2.Age) and prohibit the Rise of the humans (4.Age). They mess with the dwarfes too, but their fate is less clear. Humans outside of the Arnorian Kingdom weren't meant to populate Eriador, so supernatural effects stopped them. Low birth rate and a lack of will to expand are the obvious ones, since these are shown to impact the Elves. This also explains the hobbits thriving in Eriador: Their fate wasn't bound the rings of power. Maximum age for a speciess is losely inverse proportional to repopulation rate. Both Hobbits and 3. Age Humans live way longer than earthly humans would in a 3. Age environment. With the end of the Rings the life prolonging effekt of the Elven blood fades and the repopulation rate goes up, resulting in the rapid Human expansion in the fourth age.

[@Anglomachian]

One of, what I will confidently call in my own mind, flaws in Tolkien’s world building, is this narrative tendency for the world to be in perpetual decline. Nothing in Tolkien’s world is ever “better” than it used to be, the world is forever in a state of decline, with each golden age a mere shadow of what has come before. It seems likely that such inconsistencies in the works arise from this. In the real world humans simply carry on, often aided by the simple expediency of forgetting what it was that used to be.

[@unifieddynasty]

If LOTRO is any indication, you can't go 50 meters in any direction without some demon-possessed creature coming at you. 😄

[@specialnewb9821]

Being raised in Minnesota when you say 5-6 month winter I say "normal year" so it always struck me as odd it was considered apocalyptic.

[@DarthGandalfYT]

Agrarian societies at an iron-age level of technology only have the ability to store so much food. If winter lasts just even a few weeks longer than it should, people start to starve. I would imagine Minnesota would be a brutal place to live without the benefits of modern technology.

[@specialnewb9821]

@DarthGandalfYT People starve in a normal year. But as it happens, there are a number of non-modern tech things you can do to get through the winter. And I am unsure if T imagined a winter like MN with -40F windchills, or something like a colder Brit winter which google tells me does not even average below freezing. It's mostly a standard joke about cold so don't take it too seriously. Either way, that brings up a related thought. With Eriador mostly deforested a culture like the plains indians should have emerged. It did emerge fairly fast in reality as some at least were not always horsed nomads. They also suffered the 95% kill rates from the columbian exchange comparable to depopulation levels in Eriador.

[@LeftyScaevola]

Even less information is available, beyond a fee tidbits I can recall from either UT or HoME, about the large Silven Elf population of Eriador at before the War of Elves and Sauron and its near obliteration during that war.

[@bigtuga4ever]

Dude 03:49 millions of bananas killed me 😂😂😂