WHY the BYD Shark 6 FAILED our hill climb test

[@L2SFBC]

It's rare that permission is asked to reuse one of my analysis videos but in this case it was and you all need to know how rare that is in this industry, so huge kudos to CarExpert for acting ethically and I'm happy that my theoretical analysis turned out to be correct. As Paul says it is a pre-prod car. I hope to get a production car and do the testing required to determine exactly what the limits are and what they mean in practice for 4x4 owners. The BYD Shark has huge potential to perform...but only if the software is programmed appropriately. For those talking about the Ecotricity NZ review - Gavin used momentum to ascend the hill therefore reducing the torque requirement quite a bit. I did ask and got permission to use his video in one of mine too!

[@AllTerrainActionEV]

Watched your video many weeks back, it all makes sense. Though software cant fix the rear axle torque output if it simply isnt enough. I do not think it is a torque output issue though as if with ESP turned off and the rears light up, that indicates its not a torque limit surley and that software is holding back power requested at the rear motors (and probably the front too). It's one of those things where, you have whats on paper and then what actually is happening in real time - one of the big reasons I just want the car in my hands so I can preform said tests myself. I look forward to where the world is going with the introduction of EV to off road market as like it seems you are as well!

[@TaniaThompson-vo1ll]

Full of excuses!😂

[@L2SFBC]

@@AllTerrainActionEV agreed, software cannot fix what isn't there, although there can be short-term torque boosts programmed in. The rear lighting up was one wheel only and that was wheelspin, being an open diff torque is equalised across an axle. I found the same on my test, once BTC gives up a wheel spins to infinity. The car should have spun all four wheels, or crawled that hill. The fact it did not indicates there is a problem which I think is, despite BYD's protests, insufficient torque at wheels either becuase the motor cannot generate more, or there is a software threshold that was reached. We'll see.

[@AllTerrainActionEV]

@@L2SFBC The normal result of BTC giving up (or not been able to maintain brake control) is the result of single wheel of that diff end spinning up yes - I agree. In some vehicles also FULL THROTTLE input will also change the behaviour of how the BTC software responds. We dont know how BYD has programmed that. If there is one thing for sure, I've noticed in most BTC systems if you overpower the brakes capacity and dont sit within, things quickly give up and you simply end up just wheels spinning. There is this very strange condition about BTC that if you learn where the limits are and you provide input only within those limits to power, the BTC system works/aids and you make so much progress on a track. I've found with my experience days with beginners, that when they begin to feel the vehicles weight pull back and wheels begin to slip with forward motion slowing, their immidiate input is always to push the pedal down alot more (expecting more forward motion, like when driving), when infact sometimes its about just holding input at the same position (if anything every so slightly more) and allowing BTC to assist. Because you have driven the car you know what you tested, unfortauntley we havent so I am relying on everyones feedback to understand better, but I am on the side of the vehicle has alot more capability off road than most people are making it out to be currently - and that is probably due to pre-prod software/vehicles. Anxiously awaiting my order.

[@fazrex97]

@@AllTerrainActionEVtraction control is assisting to gain grip with grip then requires more torque wich looks to have failed. If you put oil on a road and then the tyres spin that doesn’t mean oil allows more torque, just less grip.

[@icollidge]

Excellent explanation Paul, i have ordered one, but know there will be compromises, i dont need it to climb 30 degrees plus, i need it to get my family camping on the beach and to get me to work again on monday. Having owned a GU and GQ Patrol and an 80 series LandCruiser, i can honestly say the shark will be plenty for my needs. My kids don't want to go rock crawling, and nor do i anymore. Moreton and K'Gari will be the most extreme terrain my shark will see.

[@MrTonaluv]

It's gonna struggle to get through the beach sand if it can't get up an incline...should buy a Ford Ranger

[@icollidge]

​@@MrTonaluv I legally cannot buy a ranger, I have too many of my own teeth.pretty sure there are laws about that.

[@badharrow]

@@MrTonaluv I think you misunderstood the limitations of the vehicle.

[@tim9241]

@@MrTonaluvnot really, Shark performs great on the flat. Is there a flatter type of off-roading than the beach??

[@TaniaThompson-vo1ll]

You taking a generator?😂

[@ericlin1243]

BYD has provided an OTA software upgrade to offer a new driving model call "power crawl", and the problem is solved. It is amazing how electric cars can solve major problems by just upgrading software.

[@YZJB]

It’s amazing how other car makers just do it properly from the outset instead of pushing constant updates…

[@robertwilson1827]

Why wasn't this done during the R & D???? Says a lot!?😂😂😂

[@Bombasticbomb1]

​@@YZJBit pre-production! not like other cars that are already in production! That's the reason why they sent it to be tested! So they can tweak before that car being mass produced.

[@ericlin1243]

@ just like Microsoft, Apple etc keep sending updates to their products. It shows how businesses are operated nowadays

[@DrTarentaal]

A software update can fix some things. However if electric motors are maxed out on torque, no software update can fix that. Hardware needs to be adopted to allow electric motors to assist eqch other mechanically - i.e. like a locked diff.

[@yissibiiyte]

It may not be the best off-road ute, but let's be honest that doesn't matter to the majority of ute buyers.

[@Bigrig90]

As long as it can do beach work, I’m sure it will appease many buyers, myself included

[@clipzed]

@@Bigrig90 yep should be no problem on the beach. it's great on a novated lease will still sell

[@tonysambar]

Matters to me.

[@icollidge]

Exactly my thoughts. On a novated lease, the real world cost of this car is the equivalent to a second or third hand $33,000 entry level ute once interest and tax is included. And I only need it to get over the sand. Also, I would like to ditch lugging around a couple of AGM batteries that only get me through 2 days camping anyway.

[@DabDabGoose]

​@@icollidgeOnly if depreciation doesn't go off a cliff, which it could go either way depending on future factors.

[@lammiwinks3775]

The amount of crazy comments you got from the pre order crowd was wild. Good on you Paul for staying honest!

[@steven1898]

Yeh, so honest he couldnt wait to review the actual car and instead review the pre production to get views.

[@Deadfools]

​@@steven1898It can climbed LoL, search videos on KZbin "byd shark aguenta testes off-road?" It climbed the hill smoothly with ease, carexpert just pre production vehicles

[@lammiwinks3775]

@ BYD gave it to him to review. They want as many pre orders prior to the FBT changes in April. If they weren’t ready for it to be seen they shouldn’t have given it to reviewers.

[@icollidge]

I pre ordered and agree with this video summation completely, and am very excited about what this Ute will be able to do. He is not saying it is a broken car, he is giving a few thoughts as to why their hill climb failed. It may be an issue upon release, it might not be too. Gotta take reviews seriously. And this one is honest. It may be a preproduction issue, or it might not be.

[@tim9241]

@@steven1898it is very normal in industry to use pre-production models for early car reviews. If you ever pay attention you’ll see Paul does a lot of follow up reviews accordingly. You’re essentially getting triggered by nothing important.

[@GearUpind]

We need more KZbinrs which aren’t paid and transparent if they are paid videos like car expert.

[@200mphgt40]

We need more support for Robert Pepper essentially! He does great work.

[@BlueSky-yy4ee]

But paid by who.

[@garrygraham]

He said last week that he refused the offers of payment from BYD. This is one of the few mostly unbiased review channels

[@purplemonkeydishwasherr]

Nah let the others sell out , and have more people just watch Paul 🙏

[@AmpedupTank]

lol they offered CarExpert 20k to show off the BYD, he declined as he didnt want the review to be unbiased.,

[@dmaskell]

The shark should have waltzed up it. There’s something in the traction control which was freaking out and stopping it. Electric has maximum torque from a stand still. It’s just a flat line graph on electric motors

[@PaulEuvrard-hc9xd]

Mmm yeah not buying it. But But I could be wrong please dont crusify me I think it has enough torque and just need software upgrade, still good ute for the price though would still buy it. I would like to be proven wrong on this so please test it again when production vehicle comes out Great work team

[@littleterror05]

it has more than enough torque from standstill. a difflock would of been a benefit or updated software to traction control

[@marcvb235]

I don't believe it's a lack of torque. During the one attempt, the vehicle got almost to the top, stopped, then pulled off again. If it didn't have enough torque to go up with momentum, then it certainly wouldn't have enough to pull off from a dead stop. The problem is almost certainly a software issue, probably an overly sensitive stability control program.

[@tau3457]

Check out Robert Pepper's analysis if you have time. He feels that the platform should have a higher max torque available on rear motor than front for incline work. But also that there is a lot of software improvement possible with the current hardware and torque balance.

[@USUG0]

indeed. My thought too. If torque was the issue, it wouldn't be able to climb up the hill, period. It was a combination of tires with low grip and software cutting power.

[@JedPotts-jv2ux]

batteries, much like electric motors, have a "max continuous current draw" and a "max peak current draw", you get peak power for something like 5-15 seconds, then it drops off, it affects all EV powertrains, especially PHEVs because their batteries are smaller than ordinary EVs. if you use the disc brakes to hold position on the slope for 15+ seconds, it gives the battery enough of a breather to give you "max power" again for another 5-15 seconds. it isn't much of an issue when driving on flat ground, because you really only need 5-10 seconds of max power, but when hillclimbing in 4wd you need constant power and constant torque so you're not constantly having to "take little breaks" mid-climb. the "insane torque" in ordinary offroaders isn't because you actually need that much torque, its about gear ratio so you can travel slowly enough to climb safely without stalling the engine. EV motors can handle this fine, IF they've got a big enough battery to draw constant power from. there is a lot you can do with software, but "getting around the laws of physics" is not something software can do, the "BYD/mitsubishi" PHEV architecture needs a full size EV battery in order to be capable of offroading... or you could just follow ford's ranger PHEV example and sandwich an electric motor inbetween the engine and gearbox, or toyota's "48v mild hybrid" example and swap the alternator out for an electric motor.

[@USUG0]

@@JedPotts-jv2ux where did you get that number of 5-15s? Evidence says otherwise.

[@JedPotts-jv2ux]

@@USUG0 driving them. haven't you noticed that accelerating from 0-120 has a significant decrease in power after 80, whereas the "80-120 time" is much quicker if you've been coasting at 80 for a minute or two. its an inescapable consequence of physics, batteries act as charge reservoirs, their continous draw is always lower power than their peak surge when you first start drawing current, it applies to all batteries, i'd really like to see the "evidence that says otherwise" because i've accidentally killed laser diodes thanks to peak surge.

[@xiaoabrose]

Same issue with all single speed electric motor systems. It's a design "feature". You should test them pulling a heavy boat out of water up a boat ramp. Frankly, that's a serious real world use. They definitely need a crawl gear, or a starting clutch, but adds cost and weight. They might need even both to really do well.

[@bradb2012]

I laugh at the thought of a BYD stuck on the boat ramp not able to get out... Agree very real use case

[@CMurdoch-n3t]

What? Electric motors generate max torque from a standstill, there is no need for a gearbox. Particularly if there's no direct engine connection to the wheels.

[@adriang1]

@@CMurdoch-n3t ICE engines do too mostly. A clutch or automatic transmissions allows the engine to rev up for higher torque production while departing from a standstill if needed. Yes electric motors can produce a better more stable, controllable torque output. To say only an electric motor can do this from a standstill isn’t factual.

[@xiaoabrose]

@CMurdoch-n3t anyone who has worked with electric motors will understand. Starting load draws phenominal current and they are not designed for that. Easily can be over 1000 amps in this application. Torque is a function of speed, and when low speed the torque is high but actual power output is marginal which is what matters. I have a similar designed SUV and even with 140kw, starting up a hill with a trailer can cause it to stall on takeoff.

[@Alaster-]

​@@adriang1ICE engines definitely do not produce max torque from 0 rpm, not from standstill as they will be limited by slip. The gearbox/clutch slipping may allow you to access torque from ICE from standstill, but nothing like an electric motor torque curve. The electric issues will be purely programming (due to limiting current and heat).

[@haiting1594]

Dont worry, BYD in China already added a new drive mode called "Max Force" mode in China on some of their SUV's which allow maximum torque at 2km/hr low speed without wheel spin when climbing up slope. I'm sure this will be available on the Shark.

[@peterachilles9346]

Wow thats great. Having to use the oversized fancy touch screen to change "drive modes" in so many different situations isnt annoying at all. Just basically getting in and simply driving isnt a thing anymore

[@TheBopper77]

Is that a software update or mechanical improvement?

[@frengerquiet628]

@@TheBopper77 OTA, software upgrade. Leopard series have already been upgraded with this mode

[@krossbolt4100]

@@peterachilles9346 Yeah, like changing gears, locking hubs and selecting 4WD for the transmission isn't annoying at all for ICE 🙄

[@peterachilles9346]

@@krossbolt4100 omg lmao. How about just selecting drive and go

[@3800TURBO]

If trades can tailgate in it, that's all they need.

[@johnbentley6925]

I think your final comment is spot on ‘let’s wait for the production release’ I think release of preproduction, engineering prototypes may be a symptom of the new ‘on going software development culture ‘ we’ll just update it ! Releasing too early just creates confusion … wouldn’t have happened in Ford in the 1980/90s. Let’s see. As an aside what impact do off road tyres at the right pressures have in a test like this versus the standard tyre package?

[@ben7020]

With a boat you're stuck on the ramp. With a builder's trailer you're stuck on the steep block. It's a deal breaking oversight.

[@congobongoify]

add to the list a steep driveway and plenty of steep streets in Oz and this Ute is not going to look like such a bargain anymore.

[@tim9241]

@@congobongoifythis ain’t gonna struggle with the tarmac lol - could definitely be an issue for towing off road or at boat ramps though

[@bigted92]

Get a Kia Tasman then..

[@henvan8737]

Paul the one thing being over looked is that, Electric vehicle max torque occurs at 1 rpm. Max Torque in a diesel occurs at around 1500rpm. So a gear deduction system is definitely required to overcome this. I believe Torque vectoring in the early Shark software may be part of the issue.

[@fatdoi003]

exactly.... from the get go, electric motor gives out max torque... it'll be down to software to simulate low range to synchronize wheel spin based on the terrain

[@YZJB]

Yes but when the e-motor makes 370Nm with a small reduction ratio, compared to a Ranger with 500Nm and low range, guess what - the Ranger will have more torque at the wheels.

[@davidnelson7786]

And this why you are one of the vest! Thank you , Paul, for another brilliant video.

[@BennyTheWoo]

Good work mate, well explained, and those of us considering our first electrically propelled car since our 1980's Tamiya RC will understand that relative reduction and lack of torque from idle when you put a SPEED pinion on the 540 motor :p

[@peterwest5661]

Thanks for the lesson. Your explanation made so much sense. Looking forward to showing mates on weekend how smart I am. Haha

[@seanwoo9140]

This is weird because BYD off-road brand products like Yangwang U8 or Fangchengbao are super powerful in hill climbing or any other off-road condition🤔. You can find many off-road videos of BYD Yangwang or Fangchengbao that look ridiculously good. It shouldn't be like this when it comes to Shark 6.

[@ethanxu9580]

Easy. Both of them have 4L and front and rear diffs. BYD should at least provide a rear diff for Shark. Shame.

[@AD28197]

Those vehicles have mechanical diffs and a transfer case. The BYD shark 6 is electric. Apples to Oranges.

[@alanmay7929]

yeah..... ive seen tons of them litteraly burning tires everyday long! a proper offroad vehicle is not supposed to spin tires that much! they need locking diffs not just electric motors alone.

[@alanmay7929]

@@AD28197 you can also put locking diff on electric motors lol!!!

[@林振华-t4v]

​@@AD28197U8 and the FB dont have transfer case. It uses the same system as the shark. We will find out what is going here.

[@tim9241]

Love how Paul is busting out his old engineering hat for this one! This was similar to what I commented in the first review - that rear electric motor has to do all the work on open diffs with such a heavy car. Will need some adjustments by BYD but seems doable. Very good video in the reference too, L2SFBC knows his stuff!

[@andrewsnow7386]

You say a 31 degree grade "isn't really all that steep". I disagree, 31 degrees is very steep for a vehicle to climb. Baldwin Street, in Dunedin, New Zealand is claimed by some to be the steepest road in the world, and it is only 19 degrees at its steepest. Sure off-road trails or tracks can have hills that are 31 degrees, but they are going to be very challenging to climb. Perhaps you meant a 31 percent grade, which is only 17.2 deg? This probably qualifies as not all that steep.

[@CarExpertAus]

Nup. Meant 31 degrees. Most proper off-road vehicles can climb much more than that. G-Class for example will do 45 degrees - to have the maximum at 31 is quite low compared to other vehicles in the segment.

[@_wat2do]

"It needs more torque to overcome the traction problem" ....Thats the exact opposite of how physics works, isnt it? If you add more torque to a vehicle that doesn't have traction, its just going to lose more traction and spin its wheels. Reducing the torque will give you more traction (hence the wheels stop spinning when traction control is on). The issue here seems like a bad traction control system where it senses any slippage and cuts most of the power & torque to all the wheels to regain traction, rather than transferring the torque to the wheels that have traction. Once it regains traction it sends power to the wheels again but the electric motors sense slippage within a millisecond and cut the power again, causing a cycle of power reduction from the motors until you come to a complete stop.

[@antoniodavis8266]

Thats exactly what I was thinking about traction control cutting power way too much to make the pull. It no way the motors isn't making enough torque. My tundra with the big 5.7 v8 is power but traction control cuts so much torque i can hole it to the floor in a heavy downpour on the hwy and it basically slows down to the point you would think you just ran out of fuel.

[@roberthocking9138]

Thanks for the follow up, they obviously have a lot to learn about real off road driving requirements.

[@user-pp6kw6yl6z]

Byd have genuinely capable vehicles ie the leopard 5. They haven't put the same hardware in the shark. What can be expected from a $58k plug in hybrid?

[@Johnno1979]

BYD's response @1:53 was shown for 7 seconds and discussed by Paul for about 2 seconds.....

[@CarExpertAus]

It arrived after we filmed - so it wasn’t discussed at all.

[@Nick-no8my]

I'm keen to see the production car. Hopefully, BYD will send you one asap to dispute claims it can't climb hills. Would love to see a sand test aswell !

[@martintsang1662]

Basically if they talked about the BYD response it'd negate the premise of the video title as the issue will be a non issue in the production model.

[@_wat2do]

Odd that CarExpert received BYD's response, and then went on to upload the video anyway, eventhough the main points in the video had been deemed incorrect.

[@CarExpertAus]

@@_wat2doNot really. There’s a claim from BYD that it’s software. That’s yet to be proven. We also set a deadline for filming and they sent their email after the deadline. Can’t sit around all day waiting for them.

[@wadezhu8350]

Same platform, BYD has Bao5 Wagon launched earlier than Shark already has front&rear diff lock, rear diff low range, for off-road use. It’s probably a commercial decision to not give them to Shark.

[@user-pp6kw6yl6z]

Exactly. The shark is $58k aud. How much can be expected for this price!

[@os2383x]

Amazing explanation. Really love the way you present.

[@kaparapsekiel6300]

Paul, this was a pre-production vehicle, guess with time some fixes will happen. Also, being that you may not have had enough time with it, perhaps you may not have drove it with the appropriate mode. Looking at Gavin's review, he suffered similarly, though eventually he did go through. I did check out Roberts review, though it was logical, held in comparison with the ICE vehicle, i still think, this is a software issue and not torque effects

[@shoden]

Great review for the pre-production unit. Let's hope they'll listen to the common issues and fix it before going full production as torque and low gear ratios are important for high areas above sea levels.

[@Jack20585]

The torque is overcoming gravity, not traction.

[@firstprib7742]

Great response to your shark review. Thank you. It would be interesting to see what the production version will do but your explanation so far makes sense. Without Low Range, it would beed a much more powerful motor to climb a steep hill from a dead stop.

[@TerryHickey-xt4mf]

I think it would be a good idea to have a look at the 'ecotricity' NZ review from Gavin. At the very end after multiple failures, his mate eventually made made it up the hill in his Mazda, so Gavin changed the software setting for one last try, and flew up the hill as well. Unfortunately he does not say what he changed, but it did work. His was also a pre production vehicle, still good entertainment however.

[@richarm66]

They've seen it.

[@Trad-Archer]

The ecotricity muppet bounced it up the hill with more using momentum than traction. Not good for the vehicle.

[@tim9241]

Na he used momentum to get up the hill. Paul tests from a stop which is then important test. BYD have a lot of work to do to fix the issue, but it seems doable.

[@Mikky-The-Hat]

I’m a bit confused Paul. BYD said this is not a torque limitation and we know the specs claim an achieved standing start from a 31 degree angle, 2-3 times steeper than your test hill, but you went on to explain exactly why it doesn’t have enough torque to get up the hill? Do you not think this is a software issue with traction control cutting power to the wheels? Looking forward to seeing the next video with a production car. Love the channel.

[@texas4qld]

This is a very good question that Paul should answer. BYD state "torque is not the problem", and yet Paul spends 70% of the video explaining torque limitations?

[@icollidge]

Keep in mind, BYD have a vested interest in the success of BYD, Carexpert has a vested interest selling any car, so can afford a greater level of honesty.

[@Mikky-The-Hat]

@ BYD are also in a better position to understand the torque limitations of their motors. That 31 degree claim isn’t pulled from thin air. It is tested and needs to perform a standing start 6 times. It’s approximately 3 times steeper than the test hill in this video so I feel like there’s something else going on here.

[@CarExpertAus]

That email came in after we filmed. The torque limitation is also a more general observation of vehicles like this. And as explained in the video - torque may have been a limiter on our vehicle given it had a higher top speed and may have had a gear ratio that was at the limit of our hill. All will be explained once we test a production car.

[@matthewedwards5807]

He’s right, he says it has plenty of torque at the motor but then doesn’t have the adequate amount of gear reduction after that to increase the low speed torque

[@Stuff-i-Like]

1. You should have tested all the terrain modes, simple enough, who knows what software & parameters lay under those terrain drive-mode names and how they will perform on any given driving surface. 2. Most likely culprit is traction control et al i.e. again software & software parameters, as that vehicle with a fully charged battery should have plenty of torque to get up that hill, noting it does not have a traditional gearbox so cant multiply the torque as vehicles with user selectable manual / auto gearboxes do (ie not a fixed step down / up gear reduction like in a diff). 3. Better off-road capable tyres would probably help however if the vehicle terrain / drive / traction / torque control, call it what you will isn't spinning the tyres then it’s not grip, again software & parameters that underly the electric / ICE hybrid drive system. Thanks and back to the video, i think BYD will have a fix for their probably current beta-software release pretty soon, and i expect 'version 1' and many software updates to follow in quick succession. Part of the beauty of electric drives and software control, easy to change the characteristcis through software including supporting hardware upgrades e.g. subsequent upgrades of electric & ICE motors, their coupling interface and so on. Ta.

[@bartsted8369]

nice video really prooved your KZbin name with this one. I gotta think you should preworn people on your next video that the car might be very different with a different gear ratio for your towing video aswell

[@_wat2do]

If it is a torque problem, does that mean it would have the same issue on a fully sealed road on a hill of the same incline ?

[@fatdoi003]

no matter what gear ratio is, the torque is the same from 1rpm to 21000rpm...

[@_wat2do]

@@fatdoi003 im not talking about gear ratios here, rather traction. This seems to be a traction control issue, not a torque issue. Simply test the Shark6 on a steep sealed road that gives you maximum traction and see if it stops or not. If it stops its a torque issue, if it doesn't then its a traction issue.

[@fatdoi003]

@@_wat2do all can be dealt with software updates.....

[@01Damian]

I would have thought it's weight in relation to working against gravity was the problem, not friction. Though more friction with the traction control turned off would have helped. In fact the way it lit up the tires when traction control was turned off contradicted your torque argument. It did seem like the traction control was cutting torque too much. But I do think a low range ratio can only help the system let the vehicle climb. Hopefully they add them.

[@CarExpertAus]

Nup. As explained in the video - traction control stopped the unloaded tyre, but there wasn’t enough torque to rotate the loaded tyre. The only tyres that spun were the unloaded tyres with limited traction. Because the axles act as open differentials, torque will always take the path of least resistance. Had there been sufficient torque, traction control would have held the spinning wheel and there would have been sufficient torque to rotate the loaded wheel.

[@Deadfools]

It can climbed LoL, search videos on KZbin "byd shark aguenta testes off-road?" It climbed the hill smoothly with ease, carexpert just pre production vehicles

[@EVCurveFuturist]

Great work guys. Good explanation.

[@PG-ji6vq]

The 0 to 60 time indicates this UTE isn’t short of torque. I think software is actually torque limiting the motors at low speed to stop shredding tyres on the flat. I think your hill start test points in this direction…thanks for the great content

[@Steve-ei2vh]

Great vidios but I beg to differ the torque of all electric motors is different to petrol motors in that it has max torque when the motor is stationary and usely holds that max torque upto a certain rotational speed. Then it begins to fall away. A petrol engine only gets to max torque somwere before it hits max horspower. If the shark doesn't have the torque. A ratio of max torque and gear ratio to climb your hill it would require a different gear ratio or more powerful electric engines, but it has nothing to do with the, when the Torque cuts in....

[@chriswhittorn]

Hey legend, Surley if this thing can start and accelerate from 0 while towing a heavy load, it could climb up that hill a piece of piss. Think the byd was faulty bro.

[@trickster8635]

Kudo's for explaining the short comings in Shark off-road ability, you correctly identified as relying upon torque at the wheels. I'd like to correct you on a couple of minor errors. You said the Shark had no way to overcome the friction of the gravel on the hill, yet I put it to you that it managed to overcome the gravel friction on level ground - so it is not so much a function of ground resistance (which is not a consideration here), but rather the gradient. In others words, more torque is needed to raise the mass of the vehicle up an incline, not because that incline was gravel. Secondly, torque multiplication goes through reduction gears in gearbox, then transfer case (low range), then final drive reduction, ie the ratio between pinion gear and crown wheel. The differential part of the final drive has nothing to do with gear reduction, it merely allows one axle to rotate at a different speed to it's opposite partner. Thirdly, to say that an incline of 31 degree's is not that steep, is a comment i think a reflection of your novice understanding of off-road driving. I would put it to you that some of the steepest gradients in the Victorian high country are around the 26 to 28 degree incline and anything approaching 30 degree's is very steep and needs to be treated and approached with careful consideration.

[@tersy9862]

Do you think that car companies would test these basic things before releasing a product

[@nate1593]

Thanks for your integrity.

[@rodneyoneill75]

According to this analysis then this vehicle could not drive up a steep bitumen road. Let's just wait for BYD to update the software. Silly to release it for testing in its current form.

[@YZJB]

9:29 it won’t be the gear ratio, it will be limited by the tyre’s speed rating. Your pre-production vehicle probably didn’t have the speed limiter enabled correctly.

[@CarExpertAus]

Tyres on the car had a T rating. But I’m not sure what’s fitted to the production car.

[@YZJB]

@ thanks for the reply. Unless the production tyre is different, there goes my theory!

[@CarExpertAus]

@@YZJB That was my thought - perhaps the production car has a lower speed rating due to a different reduction ratio. While it's not an EV, the RAM TRX that we get has tyres speed limited to 160km/h, but the US version has the same tyres, but with a higher 190km/h speed rating. There may be some market dependent reason ours is geared differently, but not sure.

[@AdamStafford-s4z]

Great work on the follow up!

[@TaniaThompson-vo1ll]

Cant climb a tame hill! its a gummy shark😂

[@bennyaus32]

So your basically saying if we launch it at 190kms we will get up any hill lols

[@Greg-k4j]

If this vehicle was deemed to be ready for a media event then it should have gone up that pesky hill…

[@hillpan-zz4uf]

你知道方程豹 8 的暴力模式吗？鲨鱼 6后续只要ota更新一下就可以了 ，电机可以进行精准扭矩控制的。

[@jasonfields2793]

The fact it happily fried the tyres with traction control off yells me there is enough torque available and that it's a torque management issue the the computer was holding it back

[@CarExpertAus]

It does appear that way, but it was always the unloaded tyre with least traction. Which indicates it couldn’t overcome the loaded tyre.

[@jasonfields2793]

​@CarExpertAus ​ true but that's more likely a product of open diffentals because when a single wheel spins there is a gear multiplication that causes it to spin at twice input speed and therefore half input torque. Normally you will see a wheel spi. Flair on individual wheels than the brake traction clamping but it had none of this. And a stalled electric motor will burn out very quickly that leads me to believe it is more a software issue. That said a 2 speed reduction box would be interesting

[@user-pp6kw6yl6z]

​@@jasonfields2793would love to see a gear reduction and true diff lock.

[@aarongunner1711]

The other bit with your ranger comparison, that also has a torque converter, which multiples torque again. With losses of course. Reduces power and efficiency but multiplies the torque in high slip for starting effort

[@scottcochrane638]

Great explanation mate

[@tangtommy537]

After watching the previous video, I’m not so sure anymore. I was planning to sell my Raptor and get this car instead-the price is honestly a bargain. The Raptor just take up way too much fuel!

[@Lokito2010]

The Raptor has an awesome sounding engine..I'm half in with EVs.. For the moment I will stick to ICE vehicle

[@ev0wat]

Lmao yea it’s a bargain for a reason! You get what you pay for

[@hermesliteratus882]

I can use my solar panels to charge my UTE every day, and I’m so over the constantly rising fuel prices.

[@Deadfools]

It can climbed LoL, search videos on KZbin "byd shark aguenta testes off-road?" It climbed the hill smoothly with ease, carexpert just pre production vehicles

[@wangweijia7290]

Don't worry about it, a software upgrade will fix the problem. Besides, your Raptor doesn't go up a hill like that every day.

[@ozcampnhuntdan7858]

My issue would not be the torque nor grip, I want quality and longevity of which I am not convinced yet.

[@yusun8434]

Dont worry about Shark‘s offroad ability，shark bascily share the same platform with Leopard5, that car had 4Lmode also come with front&rear diff lock, so i guess BYD would lunch more powerful offroad vision soon.

[@jrkr7357]

Right, or else BYD will get tens of thousands of complaints every day. Of course, every product has some Pros and Cons. As long as the Pros outweigh the Cons, it is worth the price. It's not worth paying extra tens of thousands to win in one aspect .....

[@aulansalot]

OK, to crunch the gear ratio numbers (theoretical) from the information we have. TLDR: Production gear ratio is most likely 15:1, pre-production model tested is most likely 12.9:1. Pretty much the same fixed gear ratio as a Cybertruck. The maths: Tyre size is 265/65/R18 = 2517mm circumference. Top speed of the pre-production car was 186kmh. This is 3100m/min. 3100m ÷ 2.5m tyre = 1240rpm at the tyre. Spec sheet max RPM is 16000 (rear motor). Therefore... 16000 ÷ 1240 = 12.9 So on the reviewed Shark the gear ratio may have been 12.9 : 1 If the production model has a different ratio, which could be implied by the top speed of 160kph, then this can be calculated: 2667m ÷ 2.5m tyre = 1067rpm at the tyre. 16000 ÷ 1067 = ~15:1 For comparison sake, a Tesla Model 3 has 9:1 ratio, and a Cybertruck is 15:1 The Cybertruck is 447 kw and 672 Nm at 3025kg (dual motor). The Shark 6 is 321kw and 650 Nm at 2710kg. Spec for spec you would have to expect that the Shark 6 can do the same sort of off-road stuff that the dual motor Cybertruck could do.

[@benbezuidenhout3187]

Thanks Paul. Very informative 👍

[@Andy-z6f]

Good job Paul.thanks for the simple explanation for people who don’t understand all the these figures.👍

[@jf9979]

That's a massive deal breaker for those who like to get off the beaten track. Imagine going away with your mates and their busted up 80 series LandCruiser gets up the hill, and your brand spanker can't even move.

[@DabDabGoose]

It has no centre diff and no low range due to only 1 gear this is the correct reason, seperate power delivery works in electric cars on road but it's terrible for offroad, this will need to be addressed in future generations.

[@petersimmonds8112]

Ecotricity NZ encountered similar problems with the BYD struggling up hillsides and getting bogged in mud. He found changing a software setting solved getting up the hill. Many of these problems will be solved by software changes. What makes the Rivian such an off road success is its software which has taken years to develop. It will be the old story "never buy the first year or two of a new model".

[@tamborineman000]

This explanation isn't your responsibility?? it's the manufacturers responsibility to explain why their vehicle failed that test and is basically unfit for purpose 🤷‍♂️

[@mitchelljack1590]

He’s making content.. that’s what he does

[@fatdoi003]

simple.... it's a pre-production unit.. case closed

[@GDM22]

In all fairness the reviewers want to get access to the car. and the public are interested. I expect there will be production versions reviewed before anyone has to commit to purchase, aside from this issue, there was value in the review for people interested around other aspects of the car.

[@geneharrison6625]

Yep the shark got a bloody nose but I’ve got a feeling BYD will be very responsive in either finding a technical fix or making big changes in the future, amazing for a first attempt at a Ute and the price

[@林振华-t4v]

Bloody nose or smear? We shall find out when more media try to duplicate the problem

[@upyoursmindyourownbusiness3411]

Most of this is completely useless as the vast number of utes will never go off road. Towing and carrying ability are going to be more important. I can see BYD giving you the option off road version at a much higher price but for most ute users there never going to go off road.

[@user-pp6kw6yl6z]

Agree. Byd already have more capable vehicles supposedly built on the same platform so it seems feasible that they already have hardware that could bolt straight in

[@jdelgadocr]

I'll love to have a BYD Shark. The only thing that doesn't resonates with me is the term "pre-production car". While it just has been launched in AU, the car was globally launched and SOLD in Mexico since May and recently other markets. I understand BYD (or any other brand) can tweak/adjust for specific terrains before launching a model. However, a hill, a swamp or any other terrain is pretty much the same around the globe. Tweaking (an existing model in production) for terrains in an specific country sounds to me like some sort of marketing gimmick/scheme from the car industry. I see a comment here about an recent OTA update adding a new terrain mode which sounds like BYD is paying attention to the market and providing solutions. That's great!!!

[@bishwashshrestha]

loved your review. Keep Growing Paul. Only the review which is honest. Thanks Paul. you are the man the legend.

[@kolviczd6885]

I saw many comments how CarExpert review was NOT PAID and it is the HOLY review of the BYD Shark! Well, every influencers get paid, that's how they run their business, but they are not always paid by the brand they reviewed, sometimes they are paid by the competitor brands to sneakily review the rival products and put question mark on potential buyers mind. It's all marketing game ladies and gentlemen. 😎

[@Damien_D]

To clarify my understanding, not to pick fault with the video. To apply enough torque at the wheels to "overcome friction" would result in wheel spin. I suspect the intended meaning would be to "overcome inertia" or if you wanted to get technical "acceleration due to gravity" of the vehicle. Or is it referring to friction in some other way such as in a clutch or brake mechanism?

[@tau3457]

Robert's videos on this car are excellent and his takeaway is that there is some space for software fixes [obviously to anyone looking at that wheelspin] but that the car is inherantly underpowered at the rear motor / axle. Some angry comments are not by reasonable / neutral people. An admin of the facebook group commented this week that every aspect of thr car is perfect.

[@Mikky-The-Hat]

@@tau3457 his video is a great theoretical explanation of how this vehicle may deliver less usable torque. The Shark has a rated hill climb angle of 31 degrees, a fair bit lower than its rivals, due to this factor. The hill in this video is less than 10 degrees and all the people quoting Robert Pepper genuinely don’t understand gradients and how far from the certified limits the test hill actually is.

[@bubbleboy468]

​@@Mikky-The-HatLess than 10 degrees. Check again mate. Much greater than 10 degrees...

[@Mikky-The-Hat]

@ I have checked. There are 4 climbs at that facility (lang lang). 15%, 20%, 25% and 30%. When asked, Paul replied that he thought that was the 15% gradient but said it may have been the 20%. That equates to an angle of either 8.565 degrees or 11.31 degrees (gradient and degrees of angle are entirely different). Even the steepest 30% gradient climb is an angle of only 16.7 degrees, roughly half of what the car has been tested at and rated for. Something is up with this pre production vehicle.

[@Khaos_1325]

This is not a surprise result and BYD already know the Shark has its limitations, this can be seen in the features of some of their other models. The BYD Leopard 5 (Fangchengbao Bao) based on the same platform as the Shark has front and rear lockers and a 4L mode. If just tweaking the software would make the Shark a good off-roader their other products would not waste the money on lockers and 4L. The Shark is most likely being produced at the best price it can be to generate early sales which might explain the absence of mechanical 4x4 features. I would not be surprised at all to see higher models within a year or two that include lockers and 4L. For now the current model is a great road ute with a bit off light offroad work, no different than an all wheel drive Subaru (the Scooby might even take it :).

[@therealjeffg]

It will be interesting to see how it does on the two test from a standing start up a steep incline road

[@allthegearnoideaoverland]

Not a good look for the Shark and electric vehicles. Great test. Honest thoughts.

[@hobo1704]

Doesn't matter what mode it is in, it should be capable regardless.

[@Danger_mouse]

To be fair to the BYD, torque limits are not something new to 4wds or unique to the EV drivetrain. The previous VW Amarok auto was torque limited in reverse gear to 200Nm. Owners aren't told this during their purchase, and it would seem unimportant generally... That is until you get caught out in soft sand with the 550Nm of forward progress and then try to reverse out. Oh dear, my wheels won't turn!!! I towed out two mates with my manual Navara in this exact situation. Another situation is trying to reverse a heavy van or boat up a driveway, the car will just sit there stalled on the convertor. The only option was a costly power train remap which allowed full torque, but put the transmission out of warranty in the event of a failure. (The reason it was limited in the first place)

[@aspireac6888]

Ford hopes this comes true, then ranger price can rise.

[@Stuff-i-Like]

Rear motor you can have peak torque at 1 RPM, more a matter of heat generation and battery life, drawing max current for short periods of time (typically). Front motors, same for the electric, not the ICE and only when mechancially engaged in the front wheel drivetrain, plus some losses in the ICE constantly charging the battery All-wheel-drive v 4-wheel-drive. Think i have banged on enough for now. Night.

[@jasonpeters2899]

I recall the "outdated" Y62 had no problems on your hill. Road tyres, no traction aids engaged, still romped it up. "Progress".

[@林振华-t4v]

What tire pressure was the Y62 running on then.

[@maxh3539]

This was probably the version for Germany. 190 max is a nice selling point :)

[@kotevski1]

Others have suggested sand or Gravel Mode option. Is the only option to use. But personally I'll never do this type of driving. For main roads and highways I think it will be amazing.

[@chrisendrizzi6872]

If its anything like diesel electric mining equipment the throttle is a speed controller not like normal, so the more u put the pedal down your calling for more speed which will reduce torque out put of the motors

[@simon-c2y]

Perhaps a future version will have gears (like the Porsche used to) extra expense though.

[@franciscoshi1968]

The reason they do not have two speed transmissions on EVs is that it is cheaper to put a bigger motor than to have a multi speed gearbox. One of the problems with BYD is that their engineers do not understand what drivers expect because many of them do not know how to drive properly. The same is true for some motorbike manufacturers. Their "expert test riders" are below average riders compared to the people they are trying to sell to.

[@MathewBoorman]

Actually this rings pretty true. I have an atto 3, and its definately not aimed at performance driving. On the positive side, it responds to left foot braking fairly well... unlike many others cars that instantly shut off all power. I did find a steep and very loose gravell hlll giving the atto3 trouble a couple a couple of months ago. It took a few goes and trying different throttle settings to get it to climb it, combined with a 3m run up. As an experiment, I turned around, and it reversed up fine. There is plenty of torque and of power, its all about traction. Simply put using an open diff and brakes is terrible solution, but it is cheap and light. The hill was steep enough to also be tricky coming down. I do image the best tune would be setting a fixed speed on the motor, say set by throttle position, and then agressive rapid brake input to keep speeds the same. ABS fast, alternating sides, not the much slower rate seen.

[@林振华-t4v]

2 speed transmission is no go. It is highly in efficency design to flush your electrical range to toilet. And it creat reliability issue down the road s well considering its compact size with amount torque it takes.

[@roychang1460]

Street tires?

[@SnitchyBug]

Tyres have nothing to do with it, it wasn't spinning them so it wasn't a lack of grip

[@Spratdragon]

My mums old subaru on street tires would of made that hill climb 😂

[@roychang1460]

@@SnitchyBug 10 seconds.

[@roychang1460]

@@Spratdragon Is that Subaru lighter or heavier?

[@Spratdragon]

@roychang1460 lighter

[@leemace9638]

Should have used V8 mode 😂

[@geoffhunt6439]

Why do you rave about how fast this vehicle is, if you want a quick, fast vehicle you don’t buy a Ute in the first place.

[@TheKnobCalledTone.]

I don't know the nitty gritty of how an EV drivetrain works, and I could be mistaken.... but I was under the impression that an EV uses electric motors to drive the wheels directly. If so, it should be possible (in theory) for BYD to write some code that can emulate an axle lock. Of course if there's still a mechanical linkage between the motor and the wheels, this might be easier said than done.

[@YZJB]

There’s one motor for the front axle and one motor for the rear axle. Therefore you need a differential for each axle.

[@nigelalderman9178]

Nothing like real mechanical diff locks. They'll beat any amount of torque vectoring braking or ABD type nonsense. My old fully locking G Wagon will pull any ute that only has a rear diff locker and some electronic messing on the front axle. A couple of owner got really angry with me having fancy tyres and everything on their utes and just being dragged around.

[@XR_Martin]

Most late model diesel 4wds have so much torque they dont even require low range to get up a slope like that. On occasion I've actually found low range was a hinderence due to an excess amount of torque available. Low range made more sense on an old N/A diesel with 200nm and 60kw.

[@林振华-t4v]

Low range is actually for rock cralwing, so Ive been told. And it helps better modulate viechle speed. When you are on sand or snow, you go with the 4h. When you try to get the car out from stuck, you wan the wheel to spin in some occation

[@jewels211966]

Just not for me... my family ,will stick with diesel , and Japanese made...

[@Stuff-i-Like]

Further, i would like to see the same test, all drive modes, with a load in the tray, say in 100 kg increments up to the load capacity, and see that outcome, still think the early release software is the drama. Lets suck it and see. Maybe BYD will include a high and low mechanical gear option in later versions, fairly cost effective to implement without having to stick an expensive, heavy and sizeable traditional gearbox inline. Keep up these tests re the BYD Shark, this is how the buying public can truely make infomred purchasing decisions for their driving requirements. Cheers.

[@Trad-Archer]

@@Stuff-i-Like BYD already has a locking diff with selectable low range gear on their leopard 5. It also has a front diff lock. These would go a long way on the Shark.

[@Stuff-i-Like]

@@Trad-Archer ta for the info!

[@RockGarden8888]

What degree slope in that test hill?

[@-PORK-CHOP-]

IMO this is a software issue that needs sorting, if it's not and the Shark is not capable of getting up a simple hill like this, it's all over for the Shark before it gets started, hills like that are nothing on any tracks in Australia. The speed of 160 will be software limited probably to do with speed rating of the tires not the gearing, I believe the tires supplied are Continental Highway A/T with a "S" speed rating which is 180kph

[@jonathanrabbitt]

"Design Top Speed" is not necessarily the limit of its top speed. It's just a specification criteria that it has been designed to achieve or exceed. BTW, I think for a nominally off-road kind of vehicle, they could have integrated planetary low range gear sets in each axle, and then software limited the motor speed and torque to make it drivable and improve gradability.

[@Ak-tn6lt]

My 1998 single cab hilux LN106 will climb that hill without a problem.

[@tonywei423]

The high tech, comfort, luxury, speed and safety is way way more important than climb the hill for 95% buyers. Also it will get fixed in no time by software upgrade. Man, this is the first pick up truck BYD made, how long the west been making the trucks? I would get one without a blink of eye if I need.

[@zaq405]

It seems like current limiting or traction control is the culprit and I'm not convinced a diff lock would have helped. There's a fundamental lack of understanding surrounding how electric motors work. The same reason an electric motor works is also why a generator works and something called back EMF. An electric motor has huge current draw initially which is also responsible for massive torque. The more the motor revs, the more back EMF generated so this diminishes input current. Fortunately, and depending on design constraints you can get a motor to rev up to 40K rpm, which is where your top speed comes in.

[@CMurdoch-n3t]

I don't think that torque is the issue. Comparing the Ranger to the BYD for torque and gearing is like apples and oranges, because the Ranger only produces its max 583Nm torque at 3500rpm, requiring a lot of revs, which is much harder to reach once the transmission is engaged on a hill from a standstill. Whereas the Shark generates max 650Nm torque from 0rpm (like on a hill climb), with less losses, and that figure only drops once speed increases, which it barely does on a hill climb. So the Ranger definitely needs the 61:1 gear ratio, just to achieve similar low-rpm torque that can let it crawl like the Shark with a ~12:1 fixed ratio has the potential to. I would think the real issue is BYD has used traction control software out of their road cars (designed to cut power as soon as traction is lost, every time), and being a new car from a new company, they have not considered or invested much yet into tuning it for offroad conditions. The fitment of road tyres kinda proves this mentality of it just being 'another road car', and probably also didn't help on the hill, when you switched off the electronics and the wheels spun (also proving it does have torque, just not traction).

[@tonysambar]

As an actual 4x4 it's a complete failure even on tiny hills. I had high hope's for this thing.☹

[@danielflinn3571]

Thanks for sharing