Henry Cloud on a Way Forward After Moral Failure and Why Narcissists Love Yes People

[@joanebf]

01:05:50 "You've got to heal first!" Thank you. That's what I needed to hear.

[@matthewjones3556]

“Forgiveness is free, trust is earned.” 🔥

[@NeeniesNest]

Oh yes with churches. This has broken my heart over the last almost 3 yrs.

[@HidingPlainSight]

​@@NeeniesNest😢painful for sure

[@1948rambo]

This was FABULOUS! And….., I have years of experience- not a newby! Totally AWESOME!!!!

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@HidingPlainSight]

Goody goody😂

[@LifesGUUD7]

Thank you Henry and Carey for the rich insights. What a revealing discussion of my flaws. I am so far from Christ, His character, His competence, yet still loved and called to become like Him. Glory to God.

[@HidingPlainSight]

He's faithful to complete the work in us! That encourages me every day 🙏🏼❤

[@tabonefamily]

I have deep wounds because of lack of trust being in a leadership team. It left me hurting but at the same time the experience exposed triggers from my past growing up dealing with rejection and humiliation. My actions in response was not great. Im just not ready to step in the water again.

[@boblee335]

Carey I have watched/ listened to this several times now. Very timely. Thank you for continuing to being practical and relevant material for us.

[@juliesunnydaze]

Multitude of counselors are safety net! Thank you

[@bealivingmiracle]

This is a must listen to video on leadership, trust, and restoration. One of Henry's favorite verses is, I believe, "Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him." (2Sam 14:14 NKJV) "Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him." (2Sam 14:14 NASB95) “But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.” (2Sam 14:14 NET)

[@jen-sv9vr]

Thanks so much for this conversation. It makes me look within and see my own moral failures and grow.

[@carfincap]

The focus on the dark and the strain to speak normally. Classic

[@tmking7483]

Doc Clouds (Dark Clouds) Many of us empaths understand the vision and we got their back _ but there are not enough empaths to go around _ we get exploited cause we the 'only lonely' supporting too many incompetent leaders.Exhausting. At least 2 empaths per engineer.

[@andyb4579]

The biggest problem in churches, especially smaller ones, is the availability of gifted, skilled, called people. Often you're just grateful someone, anyone volunteers or takes the job on what the church is able to pay. It's a challenge, and symptomatic of the low value church leadership can be given, in light of the scandals, personal cost etc 😢

[@windowsoflife]

Totally amazing interview 🙏🏽

[@lonnyerb8059]

Thank you Carey for this series, it will help people like me who think that this could never happen to me (a moral failure ).

[@CareyNieuwhof]

I hope it's helpful

[@HidingPlainSight]

I can relate...God will change us

[@BobbyMaynard-j5s]

Great practical wisdom. Thank you!

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Glad it was helpful!

[@1948rambo]

Can a leader with insight n truth step up to a new leadership position- change enough TO do that?

[@ClementAchimGyimah]

Great conversation

[@CareyNieuwhof]

Thanks for watching

[@m_collins]

I think the book is "Restoring Your Spiritual Passion" - Gordon MacDonald

[@jobethrozelle7492]

❤Still stalking you Dr. Cloud! One day I will heal...😢

[@ChirpyChat]

(Singapore) 58.18 "Grace gives the investment and the truth requires a return on the investment." 58.37 "There's no such thing as a human that's not fruitful that's truly fulfilled and happy."

[@mtcstyle]

So, my first reaction was definitely on the angry side when Henry advocated running the church as a business. I suppose I've had mostly bad experiences with churches that start measuring people like statistics vs seeing them as souls bearing the Imago Dei. The question I suppose I want to ask is, do we think a well-run business is the goal we ought to set when shaping a church? Businesses are transactional. Churches are supposed to be relational, right? You can fire a poor-performing employee. Can a pastor fire a child of God? I've experienced church hurt by a church staff that chases numbers. I already work for a large tech firm that views me as a line item on a spreadsheet. I hope God doesn’t see me that way.

[@joeychen3946]

I agree that it's not healthy to chase numbers. But I think there's good grounds for firing staff after much grace and opportunities for change have been given. I don't think a church can fire a person from being a child of God, but a church can certainly fire someone who has shown himself/herself to be not suitable for ministry or for the particular ministry. I personally would want to find out why someone is underperforming: is it a capacity issue, burnout, a job fit issue or a character/attitude issue. Then deal with it accordingly. I draw the line at character/attitude issues. I believe we should serve God with a spirit of excellence (i.e giving the best we can), and serving like a shepherd, not a hired hand. Plus leaders are also accountable to God for how we steward His resources in terms of who we choose to give a salary to. And I draw the line at when it hurts the congregation. Leaders are accountable to God for who we hire to shepherd His people. I've seen firsthand how a staff with a poor attitude can hurt and demoralise the congregation.

[@mtcstyle]

@joeychen3946 Ya, I can see how having an immature or poor character employee would need to be dealt with, up to and including termination. I suppose, for me, I wonder if there should be employees at all in a church. That's sort of what I'm driving at. In the experience from my own life, I was a volunteer, not an employee. The tactics the church used was setting vision, applying a marketing strategy and using online tools to measure productivity. This is something my corporate employer does. I suppose I wanted church to get away from the methods of the world and focus on the transcendent. The numinal and the qualia that cannot be stuffed into metrics. Sometimes, I feel Christian institutions focus on efficiently selling Jesus the product vs creating space for an encounter with the Divine.

[@joeychen3946]

@@mtcstyle Wow those were some extreme methods. Totally agree that some things (e.g. spiritual depth) can't be measured. I'm not even sure how useful it is to measure the things that can be measured (e.g. numbers). I've always felt that something may be wrong if a church isn't growing in size, but bigger isn't always better. Btw what did you mean when you said you wondered if churches should have employees at all?

[@mtcstyle]

@joeychen3946 I had a conversation with the senior pastor over measuring attendance numbers. He compared it to measuring one's kids. He said, "Don't you measure your kids' height on the closet wall and see how they grow over the years?" I said, "Sure, but I don't target their height. I don't set an expectation that they have to grow X inches each year and feel like they're failing if they don't hit the target." That's really the problem I see with the American church business model. Growth in numerical attendance numbers does not always equate to spiritual growth. I would actually say there's an inverse relationship between the size of an organization and the value placed on relationships. In regards to the church employee comment, I wonder if having paid clergy is a beneficial approach to seeking spiritual truth. From what I've seen, clergy is pigeon-holed into supporting certain doctrinal positions that correspond to the domination they're ordained in, or whatever view their financial patrons support. Clergy can't question paradigms because their livelihood depends on upholding certain statements of faith. They have every reason to maintain the status quo and not express alternative views. Pursuit of truth takes a lot of time and is antithetical to a 90-minute programmed Sunday service. I dunno. I could be way off base. What do you think?

[@joeychen3946]

@@mtcstyleI can definitely see what you mean by measuring numbers being a problem. That's really unfortunate. And I agree that the size of the church is inversely proportionate to the depth of relationships. I've been in a big church and a small church (in Singapore where the emphasis on church growth is a lot less intense compared to the US - but not to say Singaporean churches don't have our own set of problems), and I definitely see how a big church needs to work harder at building community. The small church is definitely more tight knit but being small comes with its own set of challenges (lack of resources, insularity) too. Full disclosure, I'm paid clergy (hahaha). I think paid clergy/staff is important because they can devote 100% of their attention to discipleship. I wonder whether the pigeonholing happens necessarily because of paid clergy, because I don't see it happening as much where I am. People genuinely believe in the doctrines of the denominations they're from, but balance that with the understanding that no one denomination has all the answers, and we try to focus on being faithful to God rather than to the denomination. I've also seen clergy/staff switch denominations when their theological leanings changed. I'm afraid I can't speak to the situation since I'm not in the American context. Do you see the same pigeonholing in lay people who serve without pay?

[@natecombsmusic]

Question (perhaps answered further in). What is a good path to take with that second part of trusting motivation when you are excellent at listening and people open up to you, at it actually hurts your ability to trust the motives of others? Mainly due to self-oriented motivations against each other. I see it quite often but feel I respond too enabling in order to help them through their feelings if that makes sense.

[@carfincap]

LOVE we’ve got to know when to “withhold.” Then trust me. Then as an example … Madoff. Not because I find evil scheming for money and control pleasing. BUT.. because HONESTY is here. You’re not hiding anything. Please find something above man to trust. God loves narcissists too. They/you are in real pain. We all have a streak. But you’re worth so much more than a life of angling for pleasure on this hard earth when heaven awaits if you can be brave enough to love yourself and the person you are most angry, jealous or damaged by. It’s bizarre but true. Hell is real. Misleading others as a false prophet because you can be smooth with words is Gods least favorite thing after murder. Murder and duplicity.

[@judyroth6368]

I haven't finished listening to this podcast yet, but if it doesn't refer to Henry Cloud's moral failure, you might want to reword the title, because that was how I read it.

[@Raymond-Tora]

Kingdom language and Wordly language are two different things. And the church of God are not to "befriend and love the world" as Apostles James and John say..So when Henry Cloud starts talking about church "results" I think that word has to be defined..More souls doesn't necessarily mean more souls especially if only a close knit of leaders are dictating what the church does and if the church isn't producing disciples..Competence in God's eyes is obedience. Sure one can obey and do a good job too. But if a good business man/CEO is without the spirit of godliness, he or she does not belong running the church, I don't care how well they can "balance a budget."

[@sophiesmith5922]

Can you find someone both skilled and godly? Did you know Charles Finney was hired as a worship leader and he was self proclaimed atheist or agnostic? Prayers by the church body got him RADICALLY saved. The problem is that in church we dont even love each other that much, never mind concern for the souls of the unsaved.

[@rochellecaffee1417]

I need to KNOW EXACTLY WHAT I NEED TO DO? I am not understanding why you don’t hear this on the radio, or in church. I have NEVER seen this before. What i have dealt with in my past, is no guidance in this…you have to KNOW WHAT. Is expected FIRST.

[@christiansmith-of7dt]

It was a long time agobut it was cool

[@rochellecaffee1417]

Have you ever been involved with a church or group that creates your job description, but NEVER gives it to the person who is expected to DO IT? So i have fumbled around trying to get the attention of THE BOSS, and there is NO RESPONSE. Trying to read minds and behaviors is like trying to be God, who they expect is omniscient.

[@rochellecaffee1417]

I sure wish that you were more specific with your examples. I have NEVER BEEN ASKED TO LEAD ANYTHING. I have NEVER KNOWN WHAY WAS EXPECTED OF ME. I have NEVER known who to say no to, and WHAT IS THE POINT TO THIS CONVERSATION? People don’t take responsibility for their ASSUMPTIONS, and think that THEY KNOW YOU, WITHOUT ANY QUESTIONS. Live and LEARN. Henry, i APPRECIATE that you have what you believe is MY PROBLEM. But i am sorry, I have NEVER FELT A GOOD CONNECTION WITH YOU. You broke my trust, long ago. You did not help me when i needed support in a “degrading situation”. Many Christian leaders have done terrible things to me. I am capable of “moving forward” but i need to know what you expect of me specifically, not generally. There are too many blanket statements made, that serve to confuse me and and others and lead in circles.

[@carfincap]

No thanks white black two tongue Devy. Curious and engaged are one hot and fiery combo and do not a leader maker. You did not just say glue. Haha.

[@carfincap]

Why narcs love yes people? Duhhhhhhhhh