CarnivoryCon 2019: Miki Ben-Dor, PhD - “How Much Protein? The Evolutionary Answer“

[@integrus99]

You are doing a great service to us all to bring the science and stories together around this theme - thanks!

[@ernestjahn6676]

He did touch on this, but I think it is very important. Protein needs to be increased in older folks due in large part because of decreased absorption. That was my case (I am 70) and it might be yours. Listen to your body rather than go by blanket ratios. If you need to up the fat, fine. Just don't shortchange the protein, or you may experience increasing muscle pain and weakness, meaning your system is cannibalizing them for protein. More dietary protein cures that. I was getting .8 and increased it to 1.5 grams per kg weight. I may go higher, but it took every bit of this to feel better.

[@HumanimalChannel]

true in pet nutrition and true in humans! we do need more protein less fat as we age. it's important not to allow muscle wasting (insert vegan here)

[@Jefferdaughter]

@@HumanimalChannel - Wasting of the brain is even more dangerous- and apparently also a concern for vegans: Dr. Barry Groves 'Homo Carnivorous - What We Are Designed to Eat' kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5-Yq5eNqsipbKs

[@sadrien]

In general 0.8g/lb. body weight, or 1.8g/kg is a good amount of protein. 1.6g/lb fat or 3.5g/kg fat This is the ratio used by paleo medicina.

[@quinwalker6469]

exactly, this is why we should always eat to satiation. your own body is the only authority, on what your own body needs at any given time. looking for perfect ratios in some averaging of humans is silly, we are not an average body's with an average need, we are individual bodies with individual needs, that vary based on many factors.

[@westonprice6272]

2019 the beginning of the carnivore century

[@im4485]

i really hope so

[@Jefferdaughter]

Not if the industrial agriculture & food processing complex have their way. Or the Big Pharma corporations that profit from unwell people. Or others in power who understand that if you control the food supply, you have control of the people. (And the water - is the public water system in your area still publicly owned? Or is it among the many that have already been sold to for-profit corporations?) These people are manipulating and using those who care about animals and the environment. Seriously, herbivore animals are part of the ecosystems of the planet, and there are no intact, functional ecosystems without them. Plants benefit from the pruning services provided by animals - ask any gardener. And from the organic fertilizer, moisture, even the saliva of cattle and other herbivores benefits the plants. Soil life benefit, as well. The 'animal rights' people seem to forget that people are animals, too! And animals eat other animals. We just (usually) kill them more quickly and with far less stress - as any wildlife documentary reminds us. A properly harvested animal is gone before they know what hit them. An example of a proper kill: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sInNY4eigs97apY

[@davepeterschmidt5818]

If we're smart it will be. Vegetable/seed oils are literally killing us. Those need to be eliminated completely from the human food supply. As soon as we do that all of our chronic illnesses will start to fade away.

[@DoodlesMcpooh]

My weightlifting has massively improved since I switched to DC training. DC training advocates for massive amounts of protein so I eat 400g+ a day. Pretty easy to do as a carnivore.

[@wesleygaitan]

That's a good way to bulk up without gaining fat. But how do you stomach all that protein?

[@wreagfe]

That's like 2kg of meat? 🤔

[@kermitthefrog9375]

Make an example of your day of eating?

[@CatCambak]

I’m a petite thin woman and I can easily eat 2lbs of meat a day actually I prefer it but I’ve done blood tests and I’m not in “ketosis” unless protein is under 75grams. I’ve tried and tried but my body craves protein. I’m carnivore for 6yrs.

[@scottash351]

It really makes sense considering my kids are always craving fat. Butter, bacon, cream and cheese. It doesn't matter as long as it's fatty!

[@Benisneverbored]

ok buddy you need to stop listening to idiots , before your kids have health issues. Here is a name to start with . Dr John Mcdougall , or Neal Barnard. look at the one on eskimos by Dr John Mcdougall.

[@scottash351]

@@Benisneverbored 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Have you seen the state of John Mcdougall lately? That man is both mentally and physically falling apart. Look for yourself. I used to follow what he said... oh but not anymore

[@santim2341]

@@scottash351 look at all the vegan doctors, look terrible! I used to follow that path, was a disaster

[@twntythofsx]

You're talking to a biased and moronic part of the population. I know you want to educate but they are way too thick-headed.

[@MsDestinedtoReign]

GOAT ish The fat will keep them satiated and fuller for a longer time, and they shouldn’t want to eat all that Carbohydrate junk crap. Their Auto-immune systems will be outstanding!!! 👏🏻

[@LibertarianJRT]

That is a great presentation. His hypothesis is logical and reasonable.

[@yoso585]

If you don’t eat yer meat, you can’t have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat yer meat?

[@derrickjohnny9350]

A trick : watch movies on flixzone. I've been using it for watching loads of movies recently.

[@eastonoakley7011]

@Derrick Johnny yup, I have been watching on Flixzone for since november myself :)

[@turnersaint7956]

@Derrick Johnny yup, have been using flixzone for months myself =)

[@martykendall5111]

Most people don't get enough protein. Protein drives satiety which is great if you are trying to lose body fat in a world full of easy energy. In the past when energy was scarce it would have been the reverse so humans would have prioritised animals with more fat and less protein. If you're a lean athlete you probably need a bit more energy (fat and/or carb) while if you're trying to lose fat you probably need a little less energy (fat and/or carb) with a higher priority on protein.

[@w1cked001]

Love your site

[@sharonlee996]

Amber... Thank you

[@evaeyez9379]

Ok So I love ketogenic diet but weighing 50.5 kg and eating moderate protein( so up to 60 grams a day) I do miss meat. I am constipated ( assume it's too much fiber as I eat keto veg and salad till full ) . I'd like to teansition to keto carnivore. but how much meat or fish do I eat? I'm on omad and been on it for over 4 months, love it, it fits perfectly into my life. I love all keto ingredients. I'd like to find the info on ketovore thou. Many thanks

[@zambrocca]

just let you know Szofia Clemmens poit of view: consipation is not a problem , she considers normal even once a week ...of course if "constipation" goes along with pain , it's another story

[@evaeyez9379]

zambrocca ah that's good to know thank you. mine comes with sharp pain beforehand or even when not going to toilet hence in looking into ketovore area. Thanks for the info thou.i 'll google her

[@zambrocca]

@@evaeyez9379 zsofia clemens the correct name. good luck!

[@queenmarissa]

eva eyez so honestly if you switch to carnivore with higher fat ratios to protein and eat mostly saturated fats with lower omega 6 ratios and higher omega 3s your constipation will clear up and you’ll probably end up having one smallish to moderate bowel movement per day. I was in the same case as you and carnivore has fixed everything that was affecting me, especially with my gut! No fibre means no problems in the bathroom 🙏🏻

[@HumanimalChannel]

more fat should sort you out Eva. but do not suffer with pain...do ensure you're ok if it persists x

[@ladytempest7273]

Sorry 😞 had a hard time following, Dr. Too many uhh, and pauses while you grasped for your words. Might want to practice a couple hours infront of a mirror before speaking. Thank you for the information though, your work is vital!

[@floydald]

Thanks!

[@exxy44]

boulder conference is such a gift

[@charlestait5303]

Nice Tango music at start

[@heliopijpe]

It's not hard to consume 2 pounds of meat a day,, but 400 grams of whey powder, that's got to hurt the kidneys (way harder imo)

[@w1cked001]

Where's the evidence? Antonio's rct had a fuckton of protein, 2g/lb BW with the lions share coming from powders with no negative markers.

[@heliopijpe]

@@w1cked001 Try it, I dare you ;-) (I talk from experience being 35, and I'm telling you the powder is way harder on the kidneys ... )

[@w1cked001]

@@heliopijpe my own or your experience isnt as valid as an actually controlled trial. I don't care much to eat protein powders myself.

[@heliopijpe]

I'm sure you can find clinical data out there, the amount of filtrage the kidneys can handle processing various sources of proteine is easy to calculate on a healthy individual. I'm not interested in the data, I'm telling you it's harder on the body (due to osmolarity among many factors) . Try for yourself, but be sure to have good bloodwork to start with.

[@w1cked001]

@@heliopijpe I'll be happy to change my mind when presented with the data. I've found none. I think we are on the same side as far as dietary principles go mostly. But I need to see credible evidence before believing a claim.

[@zambrocca]

really interesting, thank you.

[@Deffine]

0.8g protein per KILOGRAM bodyweight is the level needed to reach positive nitrogen balance and build muscle. Why would i wanna eat many times that and become a protein oxidizer? The only reason you would eat many times the RDA is if you need protein for gluconeogenesis. I can see that working on a carnivore diet to get adequate carbs into your muscles to feel good and perform. But for a guy getting carbs in from various sources, there is no need for those crazy amounts of protein. Obviously you want to eat higher than 0.8g protein per KILOGRAM bodyweight, but science shows no benefit going beyond 1.6g protein per KILOGRAM bodyweight. For a guy going to the gym 2-3 times a week with a cookie cutter program, he probably max out at 1-1.2g protein per KG bodyweight. Remember, only 20% of muscle is actually protein. That means, to build 1kg of muscle you would need to build 200g extra protein on your frame. If you were to be able to build 1kg of pure muscle in a month, thats an average of (200/30) 6.66g extra protein built per day.

[@RowanTE]

Isn't the whole point of Carnivore diet to not eat carbs?

[@Deffine]

No, there is carbs in dairy and some eat honey too. "Zero-carb" carnivore on the other hand, yeah.

[@RowanTE]

​@@Deffine, that's fair, but most variations of Carnivore or Zero-carb specifically instruct to limit dairy as a 'side-dish' and many adherents do not consume any dairy at all; honey is usually forbidden. 200g Yogurt is around 7 grams of carbs, even if you added a teaspoon of honey that's around 11 total grams which is not going be significant, let's add in a couple of latte's without sugar and you still wouldn't break keto for most people. A whole litre of milk is around the same carb content as a cooked cup of rice! Meat isn't just protein and fat, getting that amount of protein may be incidental to the micro nutrient requirements from eating a meat only diet, it may be foolishly reductionist to see food in terms of 'protein requirements'.

[@magicdaveable]

Nonsense. The only carbs in my dietary regimen are from the miniscule quantity of carbs found in eggs and fish. Hard cheeses are virtually carb free as is cream cheese. Drinking dairy and fermented milk has carbs. Zero Carn is Carnivory. No liquid dairy and certainly no honey. Sugar is poison. Eating lots of meat, fish, and possibly hard cheese does not increase Gluconeogenesis. That process is controlled by metabolic need. Your statement about needing glucose for muscle enery is more nutritional myth and it doesn't matter how many times you "go to the gym." Humans use Ketones and Fats for fuel, Not Glucose. There is no such thing as a mammal that uses glucose as metabolic fuel except for propagandized humans. Herbivores have organs (Rumen, Caecum) that ferments Carbs into Fat for use as Metabolic Fuel. Humans had a Caecum a couple of million years ago before some Cataclysmic Event literally forced our forebears to drastically alter our dietary regimen. The result is an atrophied Caecum now called the Appendix and the loss of several feet of colon. Also our brain increased by 3X. I wonder if there are some people missed out on the intellectual development. If you are planning to suggest that as an "iron pumper" protein isolates are part of your regimen then then your knowledge of human nutrition is seriously lacking. It has been my experience that iron pumpers mistakenly hold fast to myths promoted by poorly educated "body builder gurus." As a for instance, I have known lots of iron pumpers that believe raw eggs are good nutrition when the reality is that raw egg white blocks the absorption of Biotin. I suggest coming to my farm and try to keep up with me for a few days. Trust me throwing 700-800 bales of hay every day for three days and sometimes 1400 in one day loading a moving van size trailer as quickly as humanly possible. I promise you will be exhausted after one trailer (700 bales). I am 70 years old. I eat animal fat and meat. I often use raw egg yolks as a sauce for the meat. No plants and certainly no carbs. I have been in Ketosis for nearly a decade. I still build muscle easily because of my dietary regimen.

[@Deffine]

@Rowan Togami Evans Lol, there are people drinking 2litres of milk on your carnivore diet, which is at least 100g carbs! But hey, if you wanna get your carbs from gluconeogenesis, thats fine. Go for it. David Bennett " Eating lots of meat, fish, and possibly hard cheese does not increase Gluconeogenesis. That process is controlled by metabolic need." Thats just one of your false statements im gonna address. EATING LOTS OF MEAT INCREASE MUSCLE GLYCOGEN. The less meat you eat on a carnivore diet, the less glycogen you have stored. Do tell me again how protein from meat doesnt increase gluconeogenesis. If we are to go by your "metabolic need" logic, then the increased gluconeogenesis with more meat just proves that the body needs carbs! Also, THE BODY ALWAYS REQUIRES GLUCOSE! FACT! The brain always need some glucose, even in ketosis. In a fasting situation the body only makes small amounts of glucose for absolute minimum needs. On a carnivore diet with lots of protein, the body makes much more glucose because it can use the surplus of protein. If you check out Snake Diet guy on youtube you can see him experimenting with super high protein diet of meat to full up his muscle glycogen.

[@KetOMAD]

J Stanton shout out at 20:15 was fun.

[@davidjohnston4240]

2 days next time? 100% increase in knowledge transfer.

[@slickwillie3376]

There is a minimum requirement for the intelligence of a PhD.

[@motomatta1]

Excellent Podcast 👍🙂

[@gabardjean-paul3779]

Protein is in powder form and origin ?

[@SaturatedCat]

No, just eat it as our ancestors would: fatty meat which is full of micronutrients.

[@nioxic77]

always meat. preferably ruminants(lamb, beef etc) , but fish of course, works well. there's LESS nutrients in chicken (and a lot less fat!) but it's not too bad. eat what works for you. Whey protein is cheap and decent if you.. just need protein. but you're gonna be missing out on a TON of micronutrients, as B.Garrison mentions.

[@sadrien]

the ideal protein sources are high connective tissue meats like liver and chuck, as well as egg yolks.

[@SchmittsPeter]

Damm. I don't think I can handle 241g of protein - it is too much XD . I have already my problems with 200g.

[@XxGiO13xX]

You dont NEED to eat a large amount of protein. Eat until your satiated. thats it. this is more about eating high fat content in comparison to high protein low fat, which is not good. Fat is VERY important to eat with protein. typically 75% fat vs 25% protein. I eat about a pound in 24 hours sometimes less, eating only carnivore protocol over the past 4 months have allowed me to naturally fast 14-16 hours a day. I eat once typically now, or if I eat twice I will eat in a 10 hour window. And Im good to go!!

[@SchmittsPeter]

@@XxGiO13xX : I'm carnivore for over a year with OMAD ;-) . And I eat around 77-82% fat. So I'm more or less your opinion. But I don't want to lose weight and need a large amount of calories for that.

[@XxGiO13xX]

@@SchmittsPeter You can add things during your meal to gain healthy weight if that is your goal. Like real Honey, etc. The key for gaining weight is having the carb at the same time as the fat and protein. ;)

[@SchmittsPeter]

@@XxGiO13xX Thanks for the suggestion, but the reason I changed to keto and carnivore are heavy digestive-problems. Gaining with carbs does not work for me as they cause diarrhea and vomiting. But eating enough fat works also ;-) . Just not so fast.

[@XxGiO13xX]

@@SchmittsPeter Im the same way, I have crhones, or HAD crhones disease for a majority of my life and depression due to mal nutrition from it. Carnivore pretty much reversed it for me. ;) Its changed my life.

[@leegauss1782]

Who the heck picked out the music it is so awful it does not go with the Carnivore theme weird are you for real?

[@HumanimalChannel]

it's great. why would you even care about the music?

[@leegauss1782]

@@HumanimalChannel Because I am a musician and it does not relate to the topic or frame of mind.

[@mohamadrayan]

It is so annoying

[@vonitaesse4307]

I like the music. It’s reminiscent of better times gone by, before Angel Keys and the invention of margarine.

[@nancymello5246]

Negative vibe✌music is fine...

[@sarahsapien8847]

😊

[@rawmilkmike]

The theory of evolution can corrupt an argument. If you take out all references to evolution they will not be missed.

[@dailyd8123]

True on one hand because its just a theory.. But should something like that not be considered? There's really only a few plausible explanations as to how we are here. Should we not consider how our ancestors ate?

[@rawmilkmike]

@@dailyd8123 - there are no plausible explanations for how we are here but if there were why put it in a conversation where it is not needed. It only muddies that conversation. It doesn't prove anything. It's another conversation entirely. Why not just stick to the subject at hand? Which is, what should we eat today and if you want to talk about what our ancestors ate that's fine too as long as you stick to what we know about our ancestors. Evolution is better suited to a nonsensical conversation about why veganism is the way to go. Carnivore has hard science, real logic, and real people who are doing it today. There is no need for speculation. Leave that to the vegans.

[@dailyd8123]

@@rawmilkmike I'm not sure what that last sentence meant. Yea there are several ways in which we are here ... Big bang evolution... God 6 thousand years.. Alien intervention... All possible, so with that being said there is probably a natural diet in each one of those situations... The best thing we have at this moment besides faith which means nothing when talking common sense, evolution, whether a theory or not is the best case scenario we have scientifically. ( I dont believe evolution) If we are trying to figure out what food is best for humans thats the most sensible basis to go on at the moment... Unless you have an idea...

[@Gesundheit888]

@@dailyd8123 I agree that "evolution" does not have to be considered if we want to find out what our ancestors ate. No matter where or in what way they got here, we want to learn about our ancestors and what they ate. What's it. Perhaps in another place and time we'll learn the answer to those age old questions about our origin. One think is for sure, if we simply "believe" in evolution we are at the end of researching our existence. Science must always be questioned.

[@dailyd8123]

@@Gesundheit888 I will say that some comments were deleted and some were edited from this conversation since I last was a part... Ive been carnivore since beginning of this millennium ... And feel great... I have messed up amd eaten sweets and bread once and it was awful. I felt bad.. I was in bad mood the next day... But when i eat meat only i feel great.

[@mjdailamy4550]

All I got from this was ...eat fatty meat.

[@exxy44]

the last part lol elephants

[@michaeltrumper]

Inuit

[@l.amberohearn450]

What about the Inuit?

[@michaeltrumper]

@@l.amberohearn450 He didn't know what to call the Eskimos. They are called the Inuit.

[@l.amberohearn450]

Oh, I see. Some Greenland Arctic Peoples are called that, but there are many other Arctic Peoples, which I think is the term you're looking for. I understand that "Eskimo" is outdated.

[@michaeltrumper]

@@l.amberohearn450 I live in Canada and the people that were called Eskimos are now referred to as the Inuit which is their name for themselves and live across the Canadian arctic. As it turns out, Eskimo was a derogatory name given to the Inuit by the tribes to the south and was adopted by first European traders and settlers. It took a couple of hundred years for the Inuit to set the record straight :) Anyway really enjoying the videos. Much thanks for posting.

[@l.amberohearn450]

Fellow Canadian, here. I understand the historical contention, and appreciate the suggestion for cultural sensitivity. Wikipedia agrees with you that all the previously considered cultures, including Kivalliq, Kitikmeok, Inuvialut, are now under the umbrella term Inuit, and this line is drawn on Canadian border terms, so the groups in Alaska, for example Yupik and Inupiaq, don't always get the designation, even though, judging by linguistics, there is a continuum. I'm not 100% sure all Arctic natives agree that "Eskimo" is derogatory. See for example, its use on these pages: www.uaf.edu/anlc/resources/yupik-inuit/ and en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yupik_peoples That said, we want to extend respect to all people and use the terms they prefer as much as possible!

[@joejoefromwojoe]

This guy is painful to listen too! Ughh get to the point and make it! For crying out loud just say something that is definitive or shut up.

[@darkensdiablos]

There are a LOT of assumptions in this plus he builds those assumptions atop a research paper that he searched for and found the extreme outlier. Maybe it would be prudent to look at other research. Like the research that bodybuilders use to calculate that 1 gr of protein per kilo of bodyweight is good to gain muscle.. That's a long way from 307 gr. Per 57 kilo (of what the subjects were weighing.. It was low)

[@andreafalconiero9089]

I'm not sure why you think the research you refer to about optimal protein intake for bodybuilders is relevant. Over the course of human evolution, our species was not trying to maximize lean mass (bodybuilding). Rather the overall goal, as it is in all species, is to satisfy nutrient requirements with minimal effort. Miki's point is that for a predatory species whose diet is composed almost exclusively of meat (fat + protein), the _limited_ resource is *fat,* not protein, since the percentage of calories we can obtain from protein is strictly limited (35%) by our biochemistry, yet on most animals the protein fraction (as a percentage of total energy in the carcass) is much higher than that. To minimize the amount of energy expenditure required to obtain food, the optimal strategy is to eat as much protein as _possible,_ while eating _all_ the fat, and do no _more_ hunting than is required to obtain sufficient fat (~65% of total energy intake). For example, if a tribe hunts enough animals to provide surpluses of _both_ fat and protein, then some of each will be needlessly wasted and therefore more work was expended than was needed to meet nutrient requirements. On the other hand, if the tribe hunts just enough animals to obtain 65% of energy intake from fat, then the balance can be supplied by protein (some of which is surplus to requirements and will be left for the scavengers). This also explains the human preference for hunting the largest and fattest animals -- it minimizes the energy expenditure required for hunting. It also explains the extinction of most of the world's megafauna in the late paleolithic. Since evolution will tend to favour groups of hominids that employ optimal hunting strategies rather than energetically expensive and wasteful ones, most HG groups probably operated at or near the protein limit for most of human evolution. This is borne out by ethnographic studies of the diets of carnivorous neolithic hunter-gatherers like the Inuit. That fact _also_ suggests that our species should be well _adapted_ by evolution to eating a diet near the protein limit, which means consuming much higher amounts of protein than are typical today.

[@XxGiO13xX]

@@andreafalconiero9089 Exactly.

[@darkensdiablos]

@@andreafalconiero9089 what are you interested in? Optimal health? Or historicity correct data on what humans and their predecessors are? How much protein a human can ingest without ill effects? Or if fat from animals are needed for human survival? If its unclear what the message is here, and the assumptions laying the foundation for this talk is flawed or erroneous. Health: Is animal fat healthy, no. It is the cause of the leading causes of death in the Western world, heart disease, strokes, diabetes 2 to name a few. Is excess of protein healthy, no it isn't. Data shows that more than more than 2 gr/kg of body weight over a longer period of time is unhealthy. (elite sportsmen, physically active people and pregnant women need more on average thought.) Humans have adapted to eat more meat, no. You overestimate evolution. Humans and their ancestors haven't evolved their intestines to deal with more cholesterol than the body produces by itself. Humans get atherosclerosis from ingesting cholesterol which leads to heat disease and strokes. Carnivorous animals can't get atherosclerosis at all. That humans, historically survived in colder areas where plant foods were scarces, by hunting and eating meat is correct, but probably not as much as we once though. Plant foods don't leave bones behind for others to find 🤔 And the fact that our ancestors once ate meat is the same fact, that our ancestors once ate 99% plantbased. It depends on which of our ancestors you refer to.. But as I said in my first post. This video is filled with assumptions and he don't even defines what his goal is.. Only that humans don't die right away when consuming 357gr/57kg of protein.. Other studies shows that that amount over a long time can be lethal.

[@Deffine]

Hunter gatherers needed those amounts of protein if they were starving for carbs, because they could use all that protein for gluconeogenesis so they could feel well and perform. People eating a regular balanced diet today dont need anywhere near those amounts.

[@darkensdiablos]

@@Deffine that's good, because the climate crisis infront of us will necessitate that we cut meat consumption to a minimum and in the case that our governments don't see fit to help and we get above 3 degrees global warming we need to invent ways to grow plants in layers to feed ourselves.