Dinan BMW V10 racing engine Review and Rebuild

Casey Putsch goes to Legacy Autosport which is his Road to Indy team where world class engine builder, Butch Meyer is reviewing the Genius Garage Daytona Prototype Dinan BMW V10 racing engine that has a blown head gasket to help Casey decide how to best structure the Genius Garage programs in the future with that car.
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[@rabimunif2078]

Hello Mr. Putsch! I just wanted to let you know that I've just been accepted into Purdue University's BSME(Mech.E/Motorsport Engineering dual degree program) with the scholarships! Thank you for inspiring me to pursue my passion for the automotive industry and to muster up the courage to break an international SE-Asian student stereotype (Have had extended exposure and 4 years of experience in building & working on computers). If it's one channel I keep coming back to consistently, it would be your content indefinitely. Thank you for the beautiful videos!

[@peterlovett5841]

What an amazing amount of knowledge Butch has and can explain things clearly. I am an engineering mong and even I could understand what he was saying. Brilliant.

[@nickwebber9409]

I work with Butch sometimes daily and his knowledge is more than impressive. He’s forgotten more about engines than most will ever have the opportunity to learn. He is an encyclopedia of anything on wheels!!!

[@stubvids7403]

Don't wuss out.....go with the S85 anyway. Since it is clearly an underdog, the challenge of getting it to perform would be a great way for the genius Garage students to learn. Of course, the awesome 10 cylinder exhaust notes that it produces is justification enough! 😁

[@Johnwalter1044]

I agree, but it will depend on the finance in the end.

[@griptopia]

i'm pretty sure this would be the coolest sounding.. but unless those blocks get put back to something you can live with.. probably better selling them on.

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

As much as I hate a Chev V8, that V10 was designed for the road, and is a fantastic road car engine, but on a race car at this level, you need an engine designed for racing, like a Cosworth DFV or the Chev race engines that were designed for the NASCAR and Sprintcar uses. Using the Chev V8 out of a Road car, is not the same as using the Chev designed engine that was made for racing. Same goes with the Fords and the Chrysler's - the race designed motors are very different.

[@griptopia]

@@PiDsPagePrototypes aha\ agreed

[@Mandolin1944]

To me that makes no sense -- it would cost a fortune and in the end you would not have a winning car --it would be DNF after DNF. A "10 cylinder exhaust note" is a very poor substitute for wining races and standing on the podium. No prizes for best sounding car..

[@hilanddoug]

I learned so much from our Pennsylvania road trip host that I was able to follow Butch's talk about the engine and understand exactly what he was talking about. Made me feel pretty good! Merry Christmas!!!

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

@Casey - The metal O-rings Butch mentions, are used in the Liquid Fueled Rockets, to seal for liquefied hydrogen and oxygen being feed through the turbo pumps and in to the combustion chamber - the motors on the back of the Challenger itself. The O-rings that failed on the STS-25 launch were not in the Challenger, they were in the Solid (Fuel) Rocket Boosters (SRB's) that were attached to the sides of the main tank, and those rings were rubber, several meters in diameter, and the rubber froze and cracked on the pad, allowing the gasses from the burning fuel segments inside to leak out through the gaps between the segments. So, No, not the same technology, but the same failure method as the gasket you've had on the BMW V10, hot gasses pushing out through a damaged seal. The shuttle main engines, are some of the most reliable liquid fueled rocket engines ever made. SRB's of all forms are inherently dangerous.

[@CaseyPutsch]

A little break for the wild W Motors series to get a Merry Christmas building engines for Genius Garage. What did you enjoy most?

[@danielthompson3849]

Merry Christmas 👌👌👌.

[@delahayenator]

Happy holidays and Merry Christmas! I like this kind of stuff best, builds and racing related stuff. Just love workshop videos i guess :)

[@chrisej5987]

I enjoyed seeing how AMG does it better 💪🤪

[@brianspenst1374]

History tidbit - the phrase "hurry up and wait" has been around for over 2000 years. Julius Caesar's favorite phrase while a general was Festina Lente. The rough translation from Latin is to make haste slowly.

[@drewp25831]

Cool hearing old timers speak. MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

So by five minutes in, Butch has explained where the BMW engineers were 'too smart for their own good', and also that if you know the limits of materials you can build better. This would be a case of bore spacing being too small for the intended use, but where that spacing got compromised by the need to have a short engine to have a shorter nose on the car.

[@CaseyPutsch]

Yep!

[@markscully2342]

Yes the bore spacing is marginal but the finishing touch was Dinan overbored it!

[@PalatschinkenPro]

well if the displacement is actually 5.8L ,then each cylinder the bore of each cylinder has been increased by 8mm, which is insane. normally 2mm is considered a lot.

[@surreaLinnovatioN]

Actually, it was Dinan who overbored it from a 5L to a 5.8L. For a manufacturer to make their first and only v10 ( and note the very particular crank rotation of a v10) , this is massively impressive

[@s1ckksn0w]

@@PalatschinkenPro the displacement can be enlarged to 5.8L, but the bore is not increased by 8mm. (would be way too much lol) stock bore is 92mm and stroke is 75.2mm. With the 5.8 stroker kit, bore is increased to 94mm and stroke is increased to 83mm.

[@tommynobaka]

Casey, you're really good at asking follow up questions that clarify information. Great interviewer

[@bmwmensch]

For the record, the S85 block is not "nikasil coated," but rather made from solid Alusil--an aluminum silicone alloy. Also, the weight of the Dinan race version of the S85 is not 520 lbs. That is the weight of the fully dressed street motor. With a Dailey dry sump, lightweight alternator, and many other lightening techniques, I suspect the Dinan race S85 weighs 450lbs or less. Further, 35 hours of racing is a lot. Many a race engine is designed for rebuilds every 25-30 racing hours. So the fact that this motor showed signs of needing a rebuild after 30-35 hours of race time is 100% in line with expectations. I'm no Dinan fan, but the comparison and analysis here should be fair.

[@averagejoebitcoin]

BMW incel over here is IRATE

[@averagejoebitcoin]

BMW incel over here is IRATE

[@bmwmensch]

@@averagejoebitcoin Nah, just trying to keep the facts straight.

[@averagejoebitcoin]

@@bmwmensch The fact is a Gen III is still better than this bloated engine.

[@ParteeRacingLLC-oy9ul]

@@averagejoebitcoinDe gustibus

[@robertholt9718]

I am surprised he didn't mention sleeves for the cylinders. Less displacement of course. But I agree there are better options. Years of experience has its advantages.

[@hilanddoug]

Then you'd have to get new pistons for 2 engines, and there goes your budget.

[@jollyrodger5319]

Merry Christmas and happy holidays Casey good luck next year

[@markchip1]

I believe the Shuttle o-ring issue was because the rubber-type material didn't expand sufficiently because of the near freezing temps at launch. But it was in the fuel supply system, not part of the combustion area anyway - a totally different kind of gasket/seal.

[@Bill_N_ATX]

Half right Mark. They were a flexible O ring, they were in the field assembly joint of the solid rocket motor sections. They were there to seal this joint in case the actual metal to metal joint wasn’t tight enough. The idea was that it might take a moment for the case to get hot enough to really seal against the high pressure in the solid rockets case. They only had to seal for a few moments. But because they were cold and thus not flexible enough to quickly seal the tiny leaking area, the intensely hot gasses were able to eat a path through the joint. Those gases then escaped and sadly the leak happened adjacent to an attachment point for the solid rocket motor to the huge liquid fuel tank. The hot gas then ate into that attachment. Once the attachment point gave way, the solid rocket motor pivoted into the fuel tank of liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen and the rest was history.

[@aleisterowley2800]

Nice vid! Merry Christmas my friend!

[@evil_me]

I've been waiting for this

[@HulluJanne]

The moment I saw the lack of meat between the cylinders, I thought yikes :D This was a good brief insight to building racing engines for a brand from their passenger car ones. Actually never thought much about how a racing engine is build/developed and that maybe explains a lot of engine failures in racing.

[@fredmitchel1236]

Maybe if they left the bore alone...it would be thicker?

[@The_Brozilla]

It was a rubber o-ring that was too cold, but I think I am done with head gaskets after hearing about those rings. Reminds me of the copper gaskets used for keeping vacuum in science equipment that are cut every time it is sealed.

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

Yep, the SRB O-rings were more like the headgasket that's come out, not the metal O-rings that should be there.

[@surferdudehb352]

Love how the seal the heads on the race motors.

[@ronmarshall725]

This was an awesome conversation to sit in on❗💯

[@surferdudehb352]

Fascinating to watch and learn about engines and horsepower.

[@Edison73100]

Good interview video, now give Steve a response interview video.

[@JeffChester-jq4xq]

Please tell me BUTCH, has a channel.. OLD~SCHOOL!!! Experience over time will win races!!!

[@MaciusSzwed]

Please bring Butch back! We want to know more of him and his knowledge! He is like a modern day Smokey Yunick:)

[@anpredictable]

Idk get where he was complaining about the bolts. He said it himself, its a passenger car so the bolt shouldnt be an issue since you can upgrade/replace it w studs (arp) if youre turning it to racing engine anyway Def right about weight.

[@bobbywilson2008]

It’s Butch!!!👍🏼👍🏼

[@charliepsholka]

Every engineer needs a guy like Butch in their lives. When i first started out it was my lead tool maker. Someone to tell you to get your head out of your a** when you've gone way to deep down the design or theoretical rabbit hole. To any young engineer who's in their first few years in industry, or hell maybe all of Germany, here are some words of wisdom from my mentor, "designs don't need to be cute they just need to work".

[@CaseyPutsch]

Yuuup!

[@rotorblade9508]

interesting observations from the engine specialist. About keeping the head cool, maybe a methanol-water mix injection would solve the problems idk. Also you can find or build studs to keep the head tight and machine a lighter bucket for springs, still that wall thicknesses between the cylinders is so thin, not sure if you can rely on it, plus I guess there are other issues with it

[@SGTMARSHALL1]

Hey Casey, any videos of this engine running ?

[@jareknowak8712]

It would be problem free with stock bore, with more "meat" between cylinders and even slightly lighter pistons. To cheaply rescue this one, as it is, i would lower the max revs by 250/300, put a simple metal/cooper gasket and run rich AFR in the higher band, to lower the EGT as much as possible. You will not run more water bt the sleeves, but You can run cooler water, so maybe slightly bigger radiator? I love V10s, im suprised that Dinan choose this risky way, there is a podcast (or even 2) on Matt Farah channel with Steve, where He talks about this one and the V8. Happy New Year and Thank You for great, informative content Casey!

[@steveallam]

The challenger o-ring failure was from using rubber on the cold morning along with the rocket fuel it froze it and it cracked causing the fuel to leak out and ignited....

[@tobihaifisch7558]

15:19 Yeah. And if you mess up the fitment of the groove or the copper ring, it will be able to crack your block (!), when you mount your cylinder heads and tighten your studs...

[@knicklicht7945]

Like phillip kaess

[@tobihaifisch7558]

@@knicklicht7945 Yes!! Not only one of his 2.7l Cosworth V6s died like this. Also his Lambo "LP-X" block [R.I.P.].

[@knicklicht7945]

@@tobihaifisch7558 yeah, what shame rest in peace lpx block

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

Keywords "mess, up". Don't mess up. ;)

[@chadaccettura1993]

How about reducing the displacement in the S85 back to the stock bore size? The Dinan engines are bored over 2mm. That would probably solve your head gasket issue with only a small reduction in power. Those engines rarely have head gasket issues and they sound great!

[@lazar2175]

I do believe you're right. By boring out, these engines gain no more than 500cc. At ~110hp/liter, that's probably less than 50hp lost by leaving the stock bore. Main benefit of the boring is the high rpm capabilities, the engine is already over square at 1.26 bore to stroke ratio, but piston speeds and rod geometry isn't critical so increasing bore is way better than increasing stroke, which would lead to lower revving, less responsive engine. However, better way to reclaim this loss would be lightening the rotating assembly, like using titanium rods and pistons, bored out crankshaft, lighter flywheel and clutch etc... Also extensive headwork, increasing compression and other similar stuff. The S85 can be built to make power over 11k rpm. It won't be cheap, or really reliable, but achieving 700hp would be rather easy with stock displacement - "only" 140hp/liter, that's on par with the Ferrari 458 Italia, not even a race engine but a production V8. Also, the S85 is a great engine. It's relatively cheap for it's performance, has a lot of potential, and sounds awesome. I do believe it's the best sounding engine in the world, but some Lexus fans would beg to differ.

[@omnihein9322]

@@lazar2175 personally I would sleeve it back to the original bore, do exactly what you said, put a 10-1 exhaust, and make an incredible-sounding engine. It's probably close to what I want to do for my custom build space frame track car(though I ain't gonna race professionally or anything)

[@lazar2175]

@@omnihein9322 That's interesting. I want to build a Superlite SLC one day with S85 engine!

[@surferdudehb352]

Whats the displacement of the V10?

[@willbeasy2898]

More from Butch please!

[@CaseyPutsch]

Can do

[@willbeasy2898]

@@CaseyPutsch perhaps once a month or so we could get Butch’s racing rundown. Maybe some old school stories or lessons, or engine break downs, etc.

[@CaseyPutsch]

Can do

[@ae86racer007]

The head bolts look like the factory Torque to Yield bolts, Butch is right, they have no place in a racing environment, and MAY lead to a loss in tension / blown head gasket over time (overlooking the other design limitations). As a BMW nut it is a shame but definitely looks like selling the DINAN engines and swapping in some SBC's is the go. I'd be keen to see some in depth videos of Butch speccing out an engine if you were to go that way :)

[@NiksAndersons]

I love the simplicity in racing geeks it makes perfection. Why spend 120K on engine if we can built faster one or similar for 40K:) Awesome video!

[@DFisk75]

Casey what have you been doing to get in shape for the upcoming season?

[@CaseyPutsch]

Working to make a living and find sponsors

[@mariosnikolaou5212]

Show us the bulding process of anything this guys builds!!!

[@danielthompson3849]

The s85 is the base engine I want to use in my track day toy on a f3 style chassis

[@CaseyPutsch]

Wanna buy one of these?

[@danielthompson3849]

@@CaseyPutsch No thanks. I’m in U.K. and plan on getting a e90 bmw m5 that has everything needed to get engine to run £8000 will get the full car as there expensive to run thanks to our fuel being £1.60 a litre Being in U.K. America engines are to hard

[@danielthompson3849]

The American engines are to hard to get bits for. And I really want the high rpm v10 sound. And with 500hp ish from standard out the car engine will still be fun in a old f3000 or formula Atlantic car

[@danielthompson3849]

On the road cars it’s rod bearings that Seem to go at around 100k mikes But the road car only makes 500hp. Not 700 And is only 5l

[@TheCluesRNTheBlues]

@@danielthompson3849 e90 would be the M3 sedan E60 would be the M5.

[@wetleyrocks3092]

The block is made of solid alusil, no coating

[@augustsawzak5401]

Great video! More importantly, where are your sweaters from?

[@CaseyPutsch]

Wam Denim

[@augustsawzak5401]

@@CaseyPutsch great stuff, thanks!

[@adamthepatsfan5963]

Is a billet 2jz out of the picture?

[@delahayenator]

No matter how nice that V10 is, these numbers dont lie. If it would be a streetcar, yes, but imagine the gains or better said loss for the racecar with a V8 :) what a weightdifference!

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

In the words of Colin Chapman,.. "Add more lightness!"

[@delahayenator]

Streetcar -> KingZero V10

[@Freshhlifeblu]

Lykan engine plz Cassie

[@shannonhamilton9513]

My ucncle was a big Buick v6 guy

[@TestTest-eb8jr]

The V10 BMW has the best sound though....

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

Lolz in the sound of R26B ;)

[@supersevenn]

ya'll busting on the BMW "street" engine like if it was a cosworth DFV race engne, come on now!

[@johnforeman6620]

What they could have done when the V10 was first built was to stagger the bores alternatively left and right to increase the distance between bore centres. I would think not a viable engine to run on a budget. As well as new head gaskets, new head bolts, other gaskets and any machine repair work. Then strip down and engine outs. Overhead cams as well. One would spend more hours rebuilding the engine than running it!

[@vazione5410]

How much is the s85 for sale for?

[@CaseyPutsch]

20k

[@ATomRileyA]

Really great video, love those V10's mostly for the sound, but i think a V8 would be better just for the cost alone, racing is expensive so no need to add cost where you don't need too.

[@lesserlogic9977]

😂 The intro

[@dylansayles8383]

Casey. . . Get a directional mic for the camera. Please. 😅😅

[@CoffinRX2]

Just because old mate hasn't seen half the things on the S85 doesn't mean it's not a worthy engine. Speedway guys are all stuck back in the dark ages. How about talk to DINAN who actually built those motors and who'se been building BMW engine for decades, not pushed Chevys. Genius Garage should stock with the S85, you already have old motors in that Corvette you race, The S85 is a good step in technology before the Lotus

[@CaseyPutsch]

Honestly not really the engine is inherently limited by the spacing of cylinders….

[@cjmunnee3356]

@@CaseyPutsch How big of a bore do you think a builder could safely go on an S85 V10?

[@CaseyPutsch]

I think they better stay stock if they want it to last

[@chrisej5987]

I feel like Steve Dinan talked about building these engines when he was on the smoking tire podcast. Maybe Farah can get you in touch with the guy. If nothing else but to explain what's up with the tiny bore spacing 😅

[@fatcamp907]

The Challenger disaster was caused by an o-ring failure in the labyrinth seal.

[@Bularistan4o]

If the finance work out - keep the engine. If it doesnt - get another cool engine. But can it be something interesting, like anything else but a stereotypical american V8. P.S. If the BMW V10 just needs more maintenance than other options - better for the students! Can work on it all the time!

[@andrewkerman5347]

the weight he's quoting for the s85 is inaccurate by nearly 100lbs extra.

[@Odd_Redneck]

wow 18mins went by too fast.

[@Uathankicks]

Aluminum shouldn’t stretch

[@surferdudehb352]

200 lbs is a ton of weight

[@Mandolin1944]

At 8:18 he shows that an American push rod V8 is lighter and more powerful than a BMW V10. So much for German engineering!

[@CaseyPutsch]

Ssshhhhhhh…. ;)

[@JohnDoes620]

And a bmw v6 turbo in the 80s made more power 👀

[@TheCluesRNTheBlues]

@@JohnDoes620 you mean straight 6 turbo or the inline 4 turbo.

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

Really should say, an EFI Pushrod V8 from the 2010's onwards - before that, the pushrod engines were gaining for about a decade, but from the 70's to 2000, even a small small euro straight six or large straight four could outperform the US V8's. Once the big three got their fingers out and developed some smarter EFI systems, and caught up on the materials sciences, then the pushrod engines made big gains, both in output and in emissions. Crazily enough, making gains through EFI and materials, so is the Flathead design. There's a euro made flathead four for light aircraft, that gets good performance and is lighter then pushrod and overhead cam designs. For aircraft, less parts means less places failures can occur,... and it's a lot harder to push a plane over to the kerb then it is a car :D

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

@@JohnDoes620 Squeeze Me, what? When did BMW make a V6 Turbo? The M102 and M106 from the '80's were Inline Sixes. BMW has always promoted their Inline Sixes as being smoother then every other manufacturers V6's.

[@reedjacksonmaccom]

I’d probably not joke about the Challenger disaster. My only complaint. Else? Carry on.

[@nashidaperv2351]

Whats the challenger disaster? Edit: nvm i looked it up

[@reedjacksonmaccom]

@@nashidaperv2351 You’re right. My mistake. Columbia.

[@CaseyPutsch]

Don’t even snowflake out on that… it’s an honest engineering question and funny because it takes away everything cool Butch said. Your complaint is not warranted, needed, or helpful.

[@KostadinDelizhanski]

Well having a spec series rules ... vs almost no rules ... big difference. The BMW motor, without any BMW of USA involvment is pure waste ot time and money. This time and money are better spend on something far more usefull for the kids and the program in general (because as the pro builder said there are cheaper/lighter/almost same rev and power options). In my opinion, let the students tear the other engine, make their own conclusions for improvement ot the concept of it, and then just shelve both engines until BMW of USA has enough interest to work with you on the betterment of young people. If in a couple of years nothing comes of it ... part them to some crazy rich guys to make them feel "good" for having a unique "racing engine thats part of BMW history" and spend the money for the program. Be well, have a nice holiday season, thumbs up.

[@chrisej5987]

The flat tappet lifters in AMGs 6.2L used the flat lifters that spin, perfectly fine for a street car. Why BMW gotta be so weird! 😂

[@markchip1]

Sell the engine! Otherwise the students will spend more time (& more of your slim budget) rebuilding it and replacing broken parts than they will spend learning! Any "teaching tool" needs to be reliable and durable to serve more than just a single cohort of students!!

[@CaseyPutsch]

True

[@bobtheguy6241]

Counterpoint: keep the motor because the challenge of making it work and keeping it in good running order is a great learning experience for the students and gives them more opportunities to find creative solutions to the motor's issues, plus the S85 makes an absolutely beautiful sound

[@militia814]

Not Nikasil

[@944tim]

for 75k you get one fragile and overly tricky motor, You can pick up an 8lt viper motor for 28k or so, or a complete runner 427 LS crate motor for 17k with warranty now decide what class to run in. I like the Ford SHO motor, 300 hp at 7000 rpm..

[@zacht9447]

Man it's too bad you're gonna be loosing that V10 sound

[@AmirPomen]

Try audi v10 instead....

[@rickybobby7660]

That Dinan motor was a cluster f**k from the start. Don’t stick a pushie in a proper race car - try get a deal on a Zytek or Judd motor probably looking at 650-750bhp at 10krpm and 110-130kgs with 3-5000km intervals

[@fredmitchel1236]

Increase HP on BMW = Junk.... It is already stressed...