The #1 thing you need to focus on learning for flying the DCS Apache | DCS World

[@thelespauldude3283]

After flying the Apache for 6 months, i finally ordered a Track IR to up my game and use all of its potential

[@NVidea-yz1fg]

"Some of you have a long stick, some of you have a short stick". So true, so true ... ^^ Thanks for the vid, mate! :)

[@TheZabbiemaster]

VR is a major addition to flying helicopters, the feel on the ground is undescribable, you just feel where you're going.

[@senor_shwerk8945]

I cant wait to get into vr, it looks so fun. I might hold off on track ir to get into vr

[@redtailpilot]

Indeed. I could't hover the Huey for shit, until I got VR. Loving the Apache in VR!

[@LFOD1776]

@@senor_shwerk8945 It is! I used the Quest 2 for a long time and the experience was incredible.

[@jonl.1603]

I second vr, especially for choppers, though you need quite the beast of a rig to make it flyable and look decent.

[@jonl.1603]

​@Redtail Pilot hell yeah, same here! Didnt care for the huey, but once i hopped in it in vr, i fell in love. Analog controls, panoramic view, only gripe is you almost need a co pilot to help swap radios mid flight lol

[@Americium-120]

I think people could gain a lot from not just jumping into combat missions right away and just flying the helicopter around an airfield continuously until they feel comfortable. When I first got the Apache the first thing I did was a tour around the Marianas map super casually and then later landing on the Arleigh Burke and Tarawa while they were moving which helped with my landing controls and speed controls. This was before I even started messing with all the other stuff. Now I have several hundred hours put into this and everything is second nature with it all starting with casual flying.

[@SimDeck]

Yep. Spot on.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

If I recall correctly, I fired my first 30mm round like 3 weeks after release and it took me another week from there to launch the first Hellfire.

[@cmdrpepelluce5375]

Dont have apache but did such thing with shark.

[@Cocokingable1]

This is how i learned the Apache and the Hind, went into single player free flights with combat loadouts, turned on "god mode" and just flew em. Takeoffs, Landings, Hovering around, truly just playing with the aircrafts, learning how to handle them with weight on them. Waiting on my new Virpil rudder pedals then gonna get back into the Apache, the TFRPs i have are truly awful with no fine control, makes helos annoying to fly. When the pedals show up and if they make that much of a difference, i will sink tons of time into the apache while waiting for my Eurofighter.

[@rockyrobin710]

I must be on to 49 plus hours flying apache and I haven't shot a, weapon yet 😂

[@SGTJackMorgan]

Thanks for the great video. I grabbed the Black Shark 3 and understanding the trimmer is what proved to be the biggest hurdle for me, switching my brain from trimming a plane to how it behaves in a chopper was a challenge. I am still a terrible rotary pilot, but like you said gotta practice, and that is what I'm doing. Thanks for breaking things down Barney style!

[@aaronwhite1786]

It's definitely a huge mental switch. The Ka-50 almost feels like cheating in comparison. I can easily toss that thing into a hover, but with the Apache it definitely takes a little more effort on my part.

[@xenogear88]

@@aaronwhite1786 The double rotor help a lot for that. Apache is a struggle compared to the ka-50 imo. But it is sooo satisfying

[@fourtysevenak]

​@@xenogear88true story bro, flying the ka50 is Like driving a bicycle compared to the Apache :) btw. Both Modules are great!!! But ka50 is much more beginner friendly

[@Dexter01992]

I saw so many times people saying "Helicopters in DCS are broken" but it's just that it calculates forces that many other games simplify or have flight assists to not face them. Often their biggest issue is the yaw management, especially when switching horizontal flight/hovering. My biggest suggestion on helicopters would be to get pedals. I know, they are expensive. But they are a key component of flying rotary wings. It is MUCH more important than in fixed wings. The joystick's twist - can - work but it's an excessively small movement for such delicate control. Also it will hurt your wrist as you end up applying force on it for the entirety of the flight. I started from scratch with helis with the Hind. Took a good week to get used to it. But after understanding how to avoid the most basic mistakes, switching to the apache was fairly simple.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Totally agree on pedals being mandatory. You can get away with twist gripping fairly well in fixed wing, but even then it's well advised to get pedals. It's worth it.

[@Misha-dr9rh]

pro tip if you don't have the pedals but do have a hotas with a mini stick like the x56, bind the rudder to the mini stick

[@Joshua-by4dc]

Force feedback flight stick are insanely useful to flight helicopters too, there's some cheap options like the Microsoft sidewinder force feedback 2

[@mightyenid]

Legend. Thanks for finally providing some explanations. I’m new to the Apache and have had some good some bad results. Now at least I can understand why and how and learn from it. Thanks man 😎

[@oneworld9071]

Guru Casmo I'm sputtering my java here when you say anything about what the aircraft "wants to do"....... my ex-honey is an ultra cool chic but she didn't get "animating the inanimate". Growing up on the farm we'd be saying the PTO doesn't feel like driving the baler, or whatever tractor or wagon or backhoe "just ain't in the mood today". Actually, she's an attorney and ruthless on the Scrabble board, but the idea of an inorganic object having a psyche bugged her. And now back to our regularly scheduled program...... this episode is a blessing to have found. When I start mission in-flight, do all the arming and acquisition settings, jump to gunner 'pit and set up, when I go back to pilot seat the flight controls are akimbo. Only a "reset trim" command restores sanity. ALSO, I set up cursor keys for trim in flight. It works so well for F-18 and A-10c with short taps but in Apache the same method has enormous effect AND is very sensitive...... the slightest stick motion will unset the trim I set.

[@kmcnelley1981]

You’re awesome Casmo!! Always appreciate your Apache guidance videos. Do them in such a calm and helpful manner when sometimes I feel you want to throw out a knife hand or two. Definitely feel I have a better understanding how Force trim works. Thank you very much!!

[@CasmoTV]

I just throw stuff around the room before I record.

[@sp00f64]

After this video, i accepted the fact that it's all about "practice". So, i kept at it, accepting that i cannot rely on force trim. I am much better now after taking your advice. I'm guitar player, and its exactly the same thing. Practice. Those who don't sound like a cat on a piano. Those who practice everyday sound great!! You reap what you sow.

[@hexpulatwork]

Thanks @CasmoTV this is far more easy to point to than trying to explain it again.

[@theanalogkid4171]

Outstanding lesson Casmo! Thank you so much from a DCS newbie, more Apache lessons please!

[@Joshua-by4dc]

I have a Microsoft force feedback sidewinder 2 flight stick, it's make all the difference with force trim in helicopters, in my opinion Force feedback sticks are a must have to fly helicopters. (For those who want to try the microwave sidewinder 2 force feedback in DCS, don't forget to go in ff setting and select the inversion box)

[@skopeftisnclrp]

Thank you so much for the tutorial! I though I had a rough understanding on how to fly helicopters but you have no idea how much you opened my eyes. I knew you had to trim constantly but I was struggling on hovers because I was trying to fight the helicopter with rough stick moves. Fine tuning, trim and so on. All thats left is to practice 😁👍. Of course you gained a new sub 💪.

[@fridain]

Nicely illustrated, this is a public service video, thank you! Maybe just missing the controls overlay thingy, so people can see the trim point, and where your input is at.

[@yootoob22]

Thanks for this Casmo. Always great to have a refresher from a pro. I picked up a VP Force Rhino FFB stick and it changed my heli experience completely.. force trim now works exactly as in real helicopters.

[@NSAdonis]

"Well it doesn't do exactly what I want, ergo it is broken." You just described the majority of the flight sim community right there mate.

[@CasmoTV]

Certainly has been my observation lol

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

To a certain degree, any computer tech user be like: And I don't take myself out of that claim. I love ranting about inherently bad GUIs and those are everywhere. Literally everywhere.

[@joeds3775]

Failure to understand the basics of helos fight is biggest problem. They aren't fixed wing aircraft.

[@chrisd2704]

Another great vid Casmo 👌🏻 When I'm coaching someone that's new to helicopters in DCS i advise everytime that they simply fly it for a few weeks. No weapons, no combat missions - just go fly circuits and nav routes to get a proper grip of the aircraft. Everyone I've taught has said how much that made a difference, and they've gone on to be far more competent in the aircraft. Fly the basics first - get good at them and then when the time comes to do some punchy stuff - simply flying is natural 🤘🏻 As you say - Practice, as always, makes perfect.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

So true. Just fly. And don't hesitate to do so even with the IHADSS off first. Makes it so much better in the end.

[@AmTomtom]

Flexing the blades around the 2:50 mark really hammered a LOT of background knowledge for me. Can't wait to get stuck into rotary! Edit: practice, practice, practice people

[@Raven-sv4es]

I watched some tutorial videos about rotaries and they are good, but none really showed the understanding of Trim and the flying/handling of a helicopter. Yours helped me a lot and brought me back into them. Thank you very much for that.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Check vsTerminus if you haven't already. He's got an extremely well done tutorial series on the Mi-8. A lot of what he explains there goes for any chopper. And those are quite in-depth.

[@Raven-sv4es]

@@CakePrincessCelestia I'll take a look

[@Revan1977]

Great video! I agree. It is hard and needs practice, but isn't that where the fun is? Learning and getting better?

[@guidaguida2]

Between you and Wags and I feel like I have now mastered the Apache. It definitely helps that you have years of experience flying helicopters in DCS and other sims. Fun fact: I learned the start up procedure from an ArmA 3 mod and I can actually confidently start the aircraft without any tutorials. Looks like I'm pretty well of until ED finally comes out with the radar and AGM-114L.

[@caseysaunders2137]

Great video. I'm finally getting back to Apache after digging in immediately after release but now with FCR faced with getting proficient. Hope I've got enough HOTAS inputs. Jeez.

[@NorthernerInSpace]

Awesome video. Hopefully that will help a lot of people understand what is actually happening when you force trim.

[@griffincheng]

I am not complaining, but this is the second hardest chopter to master. Thanks for all the advice.

[@ImpendingJoker]

Simply put: Force trim reduces the amount of FORCE needed to maintain a directional input. Flight control trim physically moves the trim tabs to reduce the amount of input needed to maintain a given attitude. Aerodynamic trim is when the aircraft maintains a constant speed, altitude, attitude, course, and bearing. Remember that course and bearing are NOT the same thing. Heading is the direction the nose of the aircraft is pointing and course is the direction the aircraft is moving across the ground. So you can have a heading of 350* and your course across the ground could be 358*. If that doesn't change while maintaining altitude and airspeed, the aircraft is said to be in aerodynamic trim.

[@ulvar51]

Nice! Thnak you for taking the time to clear this.

[@Mikplayeur]

Force feedback is a must have if you are looking for full fidelity with force trim. Very appreciable!

[@Kifter1983]

Yep the trim system is a compromise. Only if you have a stick which behaves and operates just like it does in the sim, then you're going to have to work with approximates of that behaviour. I've had the Logitech G940 with force feedback, that wasn't perfect either. It had a lot of centre slop and didn't allow easy hands off trimming. With practise however you can work with the trimming systems and get it to work really well despite the short comings.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

I know exactly what you're talking about. Had the G940 for a few weeks as well as I saw a viable upgrade to my FFB2 and I just flipped it and got me a used TMWH instead, with the stick collecting dust in the cupboard ever since. The G940 was such a great concept, but it failed at a few things: The sloppy centering (kinda like setting a 20% dead zone to the FFB spring effect), the weird hysteresis filter they had in the firmware to counter their bad choice of putting in the cheapest pots on the entire planet to prevent the spiking from being too obvious and cheaping out even on the wiring, causing to lots of throttle units to fail after a while (the switchology on the throttle handles would die, simply because the wires to it were too short and would rip after a few months of usage). Sadly, that was the last FFB stick on the market and people still are using the way older MS SW FFB2 still (that thing was on the shelves from around 1999-2003). The only other option out there is the Brunner CLS-E base that fits TM stick grips and other compatible ones. But it's like 1300 units of money, at least here in Europe. And it's just the base. So you're rather in the 1500-1600 range for a full stick.

[@oneworld9071]

Kifter, I've been financially happy with the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro for some years, have replaced about every 2 years though. That center slop is one thing, but when the twist/rudder contacts are fatigued, it's awful. Don't mean to commandeer discussion here, but the last Extreme 3D Pro stick I bought came from B and H Photovideo for a quite agreeable price. Something told me that other units purchased from others may have been "refurbished". No idea what that means; how does Logitech or anybody obtain sticks to "refurbish"? My abandoned ones go to the landfill. Point is that the most recent purchase was from B and H Photovideo and had a factory-fresh brand-new quality and has lasted quite a bit longer. Logitech's a brand from which I expect none of that refurb garbage.

[@BunialskiTrip]

Thanks. I would love to see more Apache vids on this channel.

[@CasmoTV]

There are a million

[@BunialskiTrip]

@@CasmoTV not enough :)

[@brwsamurai]

I would say training to be pretty stable before use trim worked good for me to understand the trim system. it took me long 6 hours of practice to have a decent hover since i start learning how to fly helicopters. It is indeed a different kind of a beast.

[@WilliamBugeater64Simpson]

Once again, outstanding and informative video. Thank you Sir for continued great work to help we flight simmers learn the right way. 👍

[@ImpendingJoker]

This is why I recommend that people need to start flying helicopters with the Huey to learn the fundamentals. It is an honest aircraft with no SAS and will make you a better pilot. People keep trying to learn how to drive with a Ferrari instead of a Ford Tempo. Sure the Apache is awesome but if you don't know how to fly helicopters before you get in it, you're going to have a bad time. Even in the US Army you don't learn to fly helicopters in the Apache. You start in a TH-67 Creek which is basically a Bell 206 Jet Ranger. So learn to walk before you try to run.

[@Sublim3Transc3nd3nc3]

I learned on the Mi-8 and refined on the Mi-24. Ka-50 was my first interaction with "modern" autopilot systems and hold modes. Once I got to the AH-64, I had already spent a year or two on the Hind and my ability to pilot the Apache was so much better for it.

[@asmith1496]

The virpil CM3 base has easily accessible screws that allow you to release the spring tension and clutch the stick down for tension. Takes about 15 seconds to switch back and forth between fixed wing and helos. Brilliant system. Just two allen wrenches and you're set

[@Jerichoom]

Great vid. For reference to real world flying, this is a counter rotating rotor system. Hence, the tail rotor is pushing back against that torq. When you get her light on the wheels, this counter-torq from the tail rotor makes her want to roll right, hence you counter with left cyclic and left pedal. And in European birds, with a clock wise rotor.system,.it would be the opposite 😊 and in the real world you would probably never use force trim in a hover / take off and landing, because if stuff goes south you don't want to also fight a force trim system, but that's just symantics 😊 And YES! learning to hover takes time, there is no quick fix for that, a Heli is inherently chaos and constantly trying to murder you, which is what flying them efficiently sooooo rewarding 😊

[@kdfw3686]

Thanks for the great videos. When you say “click” the trimmer switch, it’s essentially a two step process, right? “Click” the trimmer + immediately let go of the stick so it springs to the center, correct? Instant trim has this thing where clicking “trim” then without immediate recentering, the cyclic input value doubles and it’s easy to lose control. My gf ultimate is weak springed so it’s always a challenge😂

[@svix123]

Once you stop trying to bend the apache to your will and submit everything just works. Joy to fly.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

It doesn't fly. It beat the air into submission. And the pilot as well! :D

[@RKW1138]

Barundus must be proud. You make a fine instructor pilot between rants.

[@josefwitt9772]

As always, yet another repetition of the instructions makes things clearer. I'm not great with fixed or rotary wing, but helicopter trim has always been something I can easily use, but don't fully understand how to use properly. Ex: center the ball vs nose to tail trim. The whole "flying sideways" thing in a helicopter always makes me wonder if I'm doing the right thing in the right situation - especially obvious using fixed guns or rockets. This weekend I was learning the Gazelle. Seems that a bit of crosswind means I've got some pitch in at all times to maintain the direction of flight I want. Stuff like that combined with videos like this helps me put the pieces together.

[@eppert]

I would love to see your button-clicks for trimming as you fly onscreen, then we can see how often and how much you do it. Dont know if any software support this. Excellent instructions btw!

[@Kathlanus]

@ about 10:20 I'm not sure what exactly you meant there. You said when you push the trimmer it'll reset the heading hold, but since you're in DCS it'll probably send you on a loop. Do you mean it'll send you on a loop because it's DCS and you don't have the feel you'd have in a real helicopter. Or are there inaccuracies ED hasn't corrected yet, and pushing Trim in that moment should only adjust the heading hold?

[@CasmoTV]

Because you’re not really there so your control inputs won’t match.

[@markturner6091]

Hey Casmo, I would appreciate your input regarding my controls set up and the use of force trim. I use a Virpil CM3 dry clutch base, set up so the clutches hold the stick at whatever position It is at ant any time. I have also removed the spring from my pedals and fitted a damper, so they also will stay where they are directed. In this case, my controls are behaving very much like in the real thing, yes? I use the "No springs, FFB " option in the special menu. So in this circumstance, I find I really never have to use the force trim, the aircraft is very stable and easy to fly. Would you agree that with this type of set up, that force trim use is not needed in DCS, or if it is, in what situations and why please? Many thanks!

[@CasmoTV]

You still need the force trim to interface with the FMC.

[@markturner6091]

Actually, after posting the above, I see its discussed and answered further down........Ignore I guess!!

[@tyler_the_man128]

"There is no perfect solution" My 1:1 real life apache sim says otherwise. With theses simple steps you too can be an apache pilots Step 1: Pass the ASVAB: Complete Step 2: Pass the SIFT: Complete Step 3: Get excepted into the WOFT board: Complete Step 4: Go to BCT: Complete Step 5: Go to WOCS: Complete Step 6: Go to SERE June 29 2024 Step 7: Go to flight school: Pending Step 8: Graduate top of your class and fly the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter: Pending Step 9: After 3 years Prove CasmoTV wrong: Pending I've begun my journey to proving you wrong ill be back in the comments in 3 years time

[@CasmoTV]

We’ll await for your return.

[@keithhudspith5245]

Update??

[@tyler_the_man128]

@@keithhudspith5245 I'm at flight school should start SERE on Saturday then common core (Lakota course) followed by advanced airframe were I am still hoping to get Apache.

[@slyderace]

I seriously need to start practicing this helo again. Haven't touched it in months!

[@HeliShed]

Hey Cas - great video - Q - does the Apache have asymetrical blades in RL?

[@CasmoTV]

Blades are wings. Most all wings are asymmetric.

[@Parabueto]

My biggest issue with the trim in the apache is that my Sidewinder Force Feedback stick doesn't seem to want to "Talk" to DCS properly and when I hit the trim button the stick recenters itself somewhere completely different. I'm not entirely sure why this happens because it works perfectly with the Hind, another ED module, so it should be the same. I can see how people get really confused though given the different trim buttons and functions compared to other helicopters though.

[@-D-Tales]

Sidewinder user here. I don't own the apache, but from my experience with the other rotary modules, you have to reverse one or both of the ffb axis in the controls. For some reason the way they are coupled to the joystick axis differs per module.

[@imellor711]

Thanks Casmo brilliant description of trim in the Apache. For all the newbies out there, once mastered Trim within the Apache Module will give you so much pleasure.🫠 Unlease the power of the Apache.....

[@JD-xh3ex]

This video helped me tremendously. Thanks.

[@andytean5906]

If you want to fly helicopters (and warbirds) in DCS then one the best things to invest in is an old Microsoft Sidewinder force feedback joystick. Then all the strange trim functions will make perfect sense.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Definitely worth trying at least. I still -use- almost daily drive my FFB2 that's already at legal age. That thing is rugged AF. Just doesn't have a gajillion of hats and buttons and it's certainly less precise than any of the newer sticks that have been released since the TMWH. But sure does it get that feel with the trim right. Not just in helos BTW. It's absolutely amazing in the Il-2 GB series (and RoF) as well and the old Il-2 '46 for anyone interested. In those sims you can literally feel your speed by the stick centering force and the centering point adjusts with the trim. So even there when trimming, you just keep your stick where it is and the trim changes the force you need to apply in order to stay there. It's just so much better.

[@admiralmacbar]

Do you have any tips to avoid the wobble that seems to happen a lot? It's like the SCAS overcompensates any time I move the stick. On a short throw stick. Edit: I've messed with saturation/curves for the stick, but the problem seems to persist.

[@CasmoTV]

Maybe this 🤷🏻‍♂️. kzbin.info/www/bejne/aHrHnpuOatOKi7s

[@zh4ngx]

Would you recommend using the dry clutch on a Virpil CM3 for this?

[@Paolo_Pinkas747]

Great Video! I am fine with the system as it as. I really hope that there will be renaissance of affordable Force Feedback Joysticks in the future. Anyway, can you do a video about the Trim Modus, how the do apply and under what circumstances they are active or get disabled? Thats were I am struggling.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

I'm so waiting for that renaissance, NGL! And I don't have enough faces to hoof when seeing how Asobo just doesn't add FFB support to MSFS 2020. _That_ literally _could_ kickstart the whole thing for real.

[@Paolo_Pinkas747]

@@CakePrincessCelestia No FFB Sticks... why implent it? Why make FFB Sticks when the most popular simulator doesn´t use it? Hen and egg.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

@@Paolo_Pinkas747 I was just going to say it's a classic chicken/egg problem. And the only solution to that is start somewhere. The reason why I think MS/Asobo should add the support is simply MS being the one that still have the best stick out there and probably would be able to produce some new ones most easily. And as for the sims: Pretty much every other sim actually does support it still. And that all aside: It enables a more realistic and also immersive simulation. I mean, we also got to think it a few steps further: Especially for helo pilots FFB pedals would make a big difference as well and I can even see use for a FFB on throttles, as the technique would make it possible to have dynamic detents and also variable friction, so every plane could feel different.

[@rapidrapid01]

Cheers Cosmo gonna give mine another try again. You didn't say what Stick mode you have DCS set to unless I missed it.

[@Tuuvas]

Thanks for making all these tips and tricks videos! Especially since the last update or two, the Apache has felt a lot more sensitive than it used to be in the cyclic. But I'll keep on trying! (on a tiny Xbox thumbstick)

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Aren't you that gigachad who was able to AAR way better with an XBox controller than those GR fellas with their fancy WinWing setups? XD

[@Tuuvas]

@@CakePrincessCelestia lol I appreciate the compliment!

[@bobr8766]

Good vid Casmo! I was flying the Apache straight and level and all of a sudden the helicopter had a roll movement to the right, I corrected to straight, but it tried to roll even more until it completely rolled over 3 times uncontrollably and hit the ground…scary! I know you covered this in a vid, it seem worse than ever now…comments?

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Sounds like retreating blade stall which happens when you go too fast. Haven't had that in the 64 myself yet though, but the Mi-24 is _very_ prone to that.

[@ismaeljordaVR]

Thanks for another master class, Casmo. I use the Virpil CM3 base with a 20cm extension that allows the ciclic to stay where you leave it without returning to the center. Being this the most similar option to reality, in what situations should I use the force trim if the grip is already physically displaced from the center? Thanks in advance. 😊

[@DeanMurphyCDM]

Same here, “dead stick” I think it’s called. Was going to also ask if there’s a situation where trim should be used even if flying this configuration.

[@StanWoods]

If you're using 1-to-1 input curves on the joystick axis setup in-game, then there is no real advantage to trimming in this scenario. Your max deflection will be the game's max deflection, your center is the game's center, and everything stays right where you last left it if your physical joystick does not recenter itself. The only times that trim would be useful, would be if you cannot fully deflect your joystick to the maximum range of travel in the real world (because you hit the desk or chair or something). Or if you have joystick axis input curves set to give you an increased "zone" of precision around the stick's physical center, in which case you'd use the trim function to move that zone of precision/physical-center around to be where your new virtual trim center is and where you're working your control inputs around.

[@ismaeljordaVR]

@@StanWoods Thanks for your response Stan. It's what I imagined. I have a dedicated cockpit and can physically move the cyclic to maximum deflections in the real world. If this is the normal behavior of the Apache cyclic then I wonder when force trim is used in real life?

[@StanWoods]

@@ismaeljordaVR you'd use trim in real life to prevent pilot muscle fatigue and allow your arm/hand to release the stick and manipulate other things in the cockpit. In the real world aircraft (fixed wing or rotorcraft) you're fighting those control surfaces against wind/drag/g-forces as you maneuver, and that translates to forces the pilot feels on the stick. By trimming, the pilot zeros out those forces, meaning the stick not only stays where it last was, but also doesn't need the constant arm force provided by the pilot to keep it in place. In the case of DCS and flightsimmimg, basically nobody has a force-feedback joystick that can mimic these aerodynamic forces pulling against you on the stick. All you ever get is the force of gravity trying to flop the stick over, and the force of springs trying to keep it upright and centered. Without motors in the joystick to pull against you and proved that force-feedback, trim in-game vs. real world will never be accurately simulated and there will always be tradeoffs.

[@ismaeljordaVR]

​@@StanWoods Correct me if I'm wrong, please. The real Apache cyclic stays in position when you release it but other than that it has to be trimmed so that none of these forces move it from its position, right? Since the sim is not affected by wind/drag/g-forces the cyclic of the simpit will not move from the position you leave it in like it does in real life, am I wrong? Thanks again for your time.

[@deanmeitzler1807]

I am having some issues with setting force trim. Could definitely use your advice. I don't have a force feedback hotas. I have the X56. I heard you say u let go of the controls but I cannot do that. Is it because I don't have force feedback hotas?

[@Cleric-Heretic]

Great tips.

[@larryboothby3687]

I love it!! Git gud bitches! The man speaks the gospel! I can't tell you how many hours I spent learning things in DCS, like tanking, or proper carrier ops, or hovering. In my flight group we practiced on the UH-1 before we flew the 64. Pick up to a hover. Then hover taxi. Then hover taxi the damn box. Then add a crosswind. Hover at 50ft. Once we had all that down, cut guns auto rotations from a hover. Then auto from 50 ft hover. Then full down auto rotations from pattern altitude. Flying the pattern. Landings to a spot. Basic navigation. All of this to proficiency in the Huey, then transition to the Apache. Many, many hours of work, all to GIT GUD. You know what. It's FUN!

[@garethroberts9223]

Nice work! 👍

[@OperatorGoofy]

Could you go thru your recommended keybinds for the apache? Something like "this is a must" and "this is my recommendation". Im getting my new virpil stick with extension and mongoose throttle this week and Im eager to buy the apache and learn.

[@CasmoTV]

I believe I have a video on that already.

[@OperatorGoofy]

@@CasmoTV Nice! Found it now when I looked thru all your videos. Thanks!

[@DOS_Gamer]

I had most success flying helicopters using an old MS Force Feedback II. Force Feedback is the closest you can get to the trim working as it should do. Unfortunately, the MSFFB II is ancient now and the quality of the grip and number of buttons is not something I can live with. I've now switched to a better quality stick with a dry clutch as I'm tired of fighting return springs.

[@NzAviator]

There is one perfect solution.. ffb makes rotary flying so much better. I'm running a old Microsoft ffb2 with a x52 head stuck on it.

[@redtailpilot]

So it's evident that the sim is harder to manage than the real thing, as is fixed-wing .😂 That said, I'm having a blast with it in VR! That's what's so good about the Virpil CM3 with dry clutches. It allows you to keep the stick in whatever position you place it, eliminating the need for force-trim. I'm still adjusting my settings and trying different springs to get it just right. I Just got the stick setup a few days ago. The Virpil CM3 base and collective is one of the best hardware investments I've ever made for flight simming...hands down! Well worth the price for my enjoyment of DCS helicopters and that's from a guy who primarily flies fixed-wing (as I fly IRL) 🙂

[@CasmoTV]

False. You are not allowing your SAS to adjust. You still need to trim.

[@redtailpilot]

@@CasmoTV Really? Is that why I get the ocassional SAS message? I'm still learning, but I definately have better control of it now.

[@ComdrStew]

The only solution to the trimmer system is a Force Feedback system or a non spring system. I have no spring on my pedals with a steering damper with around the same pressure on it like pushing the brakes on your car. It stays where I leave it.

[@damongreen6433]

Love it! Thanks for teaching :)

[@JonStockman82]

Your videos are a definite help for all of us wannabes so first off thanks for that. Second, could you or do you have a video covering RPMs I kept having issues with that on the free trial.

[@CasmoTV]

RPMs of what?

[@JonStockman82]

@@CasmoTV on the AH64 I kept trashing the engines because the RPMs kept going too high, sorry it's been a while since I last tried.

[@CasmoTV]

@@JonStockman82 you mean the torque %?

[@JonStockman82]

Might be, all I know is I was crashing more than flying. I have two months before I can try the module again or I'd try again and try to be clearer. In the mean time I'll be watching your Apache videos on repeat.

[@guidaguida2]

​@@JonStockman82 make sure the power levers are the the "fly" position. I experienced this and thought it was my binding so of course I cleared them only to realize there was a mission but where the power levers were not set correctly.

[@GTRNights]

Man, I felt that to my core when you said that people are just complaining about it not being easy. When this first came out, so many people were shitting on it and making really dumb suggestions like dampening the controls out to ridiculous levels, complaining that they need to fix it. It's like no.. this is DCS. It's not "press A to hover" XBOX garbage. Get good by putting in the work or go play Roblox or something.

[@kornykidd0]

Is the heading on the heading tape dictated by the physical nose or the velocity vector?

[@CasmoTV]

Nose

[@bestpilots3972]

its not broken but there should be an option so when you enable, it helps keep the ball in center all the time with rudder pedals. I don't have pedals and with my cheap logitech twist yaw axis twitching all over the place in game, it makes me loose the control and do stupid rolls that almost gets me killed every time I touch yaw axis or the collective. They need to understand not everyone has pedals or high quality joysticks that send smooth inputs to the game.

[@danielu2143]

Casmo thank you once again for your video. Question what would be the closest cyclic from reality? If I understand well having a cyclic without springs would avoid you to use trimmer as you would be closer to 1 to 1 real world - DCS. Today I use a Virpil with springs and the trimmer. But wondering if I would be more happy with a cyclic without springs ..

[@CasmoTV]

You still would have to use the trimmer.

[@TrickerDCS]

The number 1 thing I need to focus on is YOU ❤️

[@CasmoTV]

Feet pix inbound 💦💥🦶🏼

[@ascherlafayette8572]

Are the blades supposed to flap up and down when stationary like that? I was under the impression that aerodynamics forces were the only thing that actually "tilt" the rotor system as a result of pitch changes.

[@CasmoTV]

Well if the swashplate is moving then The blades will love because of it.

[@yonathanengineer]

Lil confused. Ok so in real Apache, do you need to press the “trim R” up and keep pressing it and move the cyclic forward/backward then take your finger off of and it locks there ? And that will be the new center position ? OR it will get back to old center position ?. I’m really confused here.

[@CasmoTV]

It stays there. It’s not a new center position. Center doesn’t matter. That’s not what’s important.

[@yonathanengineer]

@@CasmoTV ok, what does the Trim AFT button does if pressed ?.

[@ttenor12]

There is what comes pretty close to a perfect solution: An FFB stick. Since I got my Sidewinder, I haven't touched my Warthog stick in almost a year already.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Same. My Warthog stick is collection dust for already a decade... and I even tried the G940, but wasn't happy and flipped it :D If only MS could team up with TM or any other stick builder and make a worthy successor with all the bells and whistles, I'd be so down for it!

[@ttenor12]

@@CakePrincessCelestia that would be amazing. In the meantime, I'm saving up some money to get a VPForce Rhino

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

@@ttenor12 I didn't even know about that... I actually might consider getting one as well. The thing that always kept me from getting the Brunner (or: saving up for it) was the fact that it doesn't do native FFB and needs some workaround solutions for it to work with our sims. And I heard the motors would lower the force after a while due to heat build up which I totally wouldn't want to happen. I'd probably try to make a setup with an extension while I'm at it, so yeah, I'd need stronger forces.

[@ttenor12]

@Rainbow Dash that's one of the things that the Rhino fortunately fixes. It's detected natively like any other joystick and even comes with a software that allows you to adjust spring tension, dampening and friction. The only downside is, its price being a bit steep compared to the Sidewinder (still much cheaper than the Brunner though) and the long wait time to get one.

[@stephensquires8935]

Thanks for this video! I am new to DCS and i'm trying to figure out why when I release the wheel lock the Apache instantly starts rotating to the left. I have not touched ANY controls and my joystick is centered on all axis X, Y & Z, So is trim what is causing that movement? I understand once the helicopter is moving trim is needed but even when I'm on the ground and have not touched any controls? Please help, Thanks!

[@CasmoTV]

Idk man id have to see what you’re doing. The TR is creating thrust so you need to have some pedal in

[@stephensquires8935]

Thanks @@CasmoTV turns out my X52 stick calibration was the issue. Returned it and got the X56 instead now I'm flying! Reminds me of the Janes Longbow series, but turned up to 11!

[@USAF-AMMO-461X0]

How do you make the eyesight ring translucent like that? Also, does it have to be in the right eye or left eye or can it be both?

[@jui79]

In the main menu you can set it under options --> special --> module settings and there you can also switch it off completely which I prefer.

[@danfraser5626]

I just started the Apache, after flying the Chinook for the last month. It seems to me that the trim is almost identical to the trim in the Chinook. Am I wrong or right?

[@krostouin]

The ones complaining about Apache trim are similar to the Jester haters. They don't get the logic so it must be bad :D

[@AdastraRecordings]

Watched this twice, it finally makes sense.

[@BoogalooFL]

Casmo, love the videos and the experience and wealth of knowledge you bring. While I agree that people don't understand helicopter flight in general and need more practice with it, there are some glaring issues that need to be addressed with the FM. To give credit where it is due, because I love shitting on ED as much as the next guy, the Apache is beautifully modeled and a real joy to fly 75% of the time. I would consider myself fairly well versed in rotary flight, albeit only in simulator. I have ~500 hours in the Huey and have quite a few hours in the Hind, Hip, and Gazelle. I understand force trim and how DCS is trying to approximate it. Again, I have never flown the real Apache, so I might be ignorant, but I feel that closer to the edges of the flight regime it becomes wildly unstable and wholly unpredictable. Non commanded snap rolls being the major issue I can point to right off hand. While I do agree that most just need to "get gud", I also am willing to admit that we are not quite there yet, and we still have a little ways to go. Just my $0.02 for what it's worth. Loving the videos. Please keep doing what you're doing. PS What is BAM? Haven't seen any videos about it. Would love to see what it is all about. I think the TSD has the real potential to be a very powerful tool if used correctly, I can really see the potential there. I know you have said in the past that BAM is very complex. I really haven't looked into it on my own at all. Thanks again!

[@BoogalooFL]

The best way to describe it just sitting here thinking about it, I feel like in the Apache I am balancing a plate on the tip of a pin. Like any movement will just upset it and send it tumbling.

[@aaronwhite1786]

Casmo, do you use the pedal trim? I flew with it for a while, but I've been experimenting with flying without the pedal trim, since it's usually not too terrible to hold my heading manually, especially while flying at speed. Then I can just focus on trimming my cyclic and not need to worry about making fine adjustments and accidentally trimming my pedals way out of whack.

[@CasmoTV]

There is no “pedal trim”. That’s the heading hold mode and it’s always on till you hit the trimmer, then it resets when you release the trimmer.

[@aaronwhite1786]

@@CasmoTV Sorry, I wasn't very specific. I was talking about the "Pedal Trimmer Mode" in the Special Options. I've been testing out the "Pedals Without Springs" option lately, to see how I did with hovering and turning. Just curious what you use for that setting. I had "Instant Trim" previously.

[@JamesP33R]

What?! I have to put in stick time, i.e. work, to get better at flying? Preposterous!

[@CasmoTV]

It’s hard for people to grasp.

[@TommyTactix]

Thanks, that’s very helpful!

[@shd4618]

Casmo savin' the day.

[@Mightymoose02]

Thanks for yet another great video, Casmo. I do find the Apache in DCS a lot more difficult, «top heavy» and very roll sensitive compared to the Hind and Huey. What is your opinion when comparing these helicopters? NOTE: I have a few years of heli sim experience and many years of national level large RC helicopter experience, so I hopefully have the helicopter basics down 😊

[@EbonySeraphim]

Compare to the Ka-50 the Apache definitely wants to “tip over” in the opposing direction of rudder input. It kind of makes sense though and is mitigated by ensuring you initiate turns with cyclic roll first before you input rudder.

[@EbonySeraphim]

Also, ✌🏿 on RC helis. I don’t compete but I’ve been in that hobby for years too. Fly light 3D for my 580 SAB Kraken

[@beepbop9]

Feels like it flies how most helicopters in Arma 3 advanced flight model felt like. The trim was pretty much the same.

[@fernandobrogna5128]

Do I must have a rudder pedals to fly helicopters in DCS? Tks

[@CasmoTV]

MUST? No. Should you; you’ll be happier.

[@fernandobrogna5128]

@@CasmoTV Could you share your opinion about: Warthog without rudder pedals or X56 with it? Considering better simulation experience and quality of controls (precision and response). Thank you very much!

[@bilbotbaggins1536]

this module shows how arcady the msfs helicopters are. They feel very arcady now that I've tried the Apache

[@coffeeguy6673]

That's not entirely true , my neighbour is a HEMS pilot flying the Agusta 109 and prior to that he was a Cabri instructor. I invited him over to try the Cabri in MSFS and his opinion was it was pretty realistic handling wise, he also said it is easier to fly the real thing. My setup is a mixture of Thrustmaster and Logitech. I set it to HARD no assists and James mastered it within minutes, I tried it and I was swaying and spinning all over the place but after some tuition from a real world pilot I was getting the hang of it.

[@VortexAeromedia]

Is it me or are those blades flapping with control inputs even though the blades are static?

[@MysticSaruman]

I have a lot of problems during transition, therefore when I need to slow down from high speed and hover. Any tips?

[@joeds3775]

Start to slow earlier and give you and the aircraft time to react. Helos are NOT the same as planes.

[@Deceter]

Approximately how long would you spend on 'trim' at flight school? Theory and prac.

[@CasmoTV]

Probably not as long as you think.

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

4:23 If only there was more FFB capable hardware out there... it's kinda hard to recommend getting a used FFB2 stick still (it only has one hat, 4+4 buttons and is just 2048 res as opposed to modern sticks that are 16k or even more!), but the only real alternative out there is getting a Brunner CLS-E base which is very expensive. Most people won't do that... and even I haven't pulled the trigger yet, although I'm probably the biggest FFB advocate in the whole flight sim community... 6:53 So the real one doesn't, I presume... 9:28 There is, well, almost... it's called Force Feedback XD - of course, you still need practice, but at least the thing then behaves like a real one, which does make it easier :) 13:47 Watching every KZbin video and not practicing genuinely is the new "I've read a ton of books about it but that's it". 14:14 You know what's not hard? Holding the torque right there at 69%. Nice! :D My 2¢ take on the whole thing: - Git Veeeee Orre - Notice "IHADSSo much more problems without" - Git Force Feedback (if you can't, go pester your favourite HOTAS manufacturers repeatedly until they finally ship something that has it!) - Learn loving the trimmer with that gigachad device - Turn that fricken IHADSS off, really! - Git GUD - Turn that fricken IHADDS back on - Feel like being at home in the thing!

[@audunskilbrei8279]

Someone needs to design a joystick with a moving centerpoint. It wouldn't be hard hard I think. Doesn't have to be force feedback. Just make it so that when you click a button the springs center point will move to wherever the stick is currently at.

[@prichardgs]

I'm trim challenged-thank you.

[@rmack9226]

Old man flew S92s. He was explaining to me that pilots never actually moved the stick to fly the helicopter. SOP is to blip the trim to fly the helicopter at all times. He was saying that essentially the autopilot is in total control and pilots were basically forbidden from flying it manually. I explained how the BlackShark flew, and he said it was something like that. Helicopter would try to maintain an attitude, and you're just trimming around to fly it. Also said biggest hurdle for new pilots was getting them to understand that they aren't supposed to be "flying" the helicopter, and that they need to learn how to let the machine do all the work, and they're just blipping trim. Once that's understood, he said it's an amazing machine to fly. I'm assuming Apache has some sort of similar setup. Maybe that's wrong. That said, do you think these DCS modules should have a trim function like Hind and Gazelle do? You can fly those without ever really moving "the stick".

[@CasmoTV]

Meh not quite the same. You would certainly perish if you tried to fly the Apache like that. In fact you couldn’t.

[@indyjons321]

What I don’t understand is the blades flapping when moving the cyclic while the blades are stationary.

[@CasmoTV]

Why? The swashplate is moving…

[@indyjons321]

@@CasmoTV Right, but normally the blades would just feather, and not flap while the blades aren’t spinning. I think it may just be a visual bug.

[@joeds3775]

The blades don't flap they are moved by the swash plate and all that engineering stuff

[@nicolasandre9886]

The perfect solution would be to have a force feedback long stick that would mimick the real thing better than my puny X-52 I suppose. If it existed, it would certainly not be perfect for our wallets though. The comparison with how trim works in fixed wing and helicopters is probably useful for people transitioning to helicopters. And yes, practice is definitely the one solution no one can escape :)

[@CakePrincessCelestia]

Stick extension for TMWH-like stick mounting: exists Brunner CLS-E FFB base with TMWH-like stick mounting: exists Also, Brunner CLS-E: is **bleeping** expensive XD

[@Spindrift-m8n]

Very difficult subject to explain without actually experiencing in a real helicopter what the trim does. If you fly the real aircraft it is instantly clear what trim does and how it does it. In the flight sim world the closest you can get is a "force Feedback" joystick, aptly named because the point is to "trim out"the feedback forces.

[@Andy-cc8un]

Hi I didn't watch the entire video I'm sure it was fine and helpful to lots of people, as the comments seem to sugest they gained something beneficial. But I just felt compelled to point out your description of what trim is was not accurate. Trim has nothing to do with level flight. and its not anything to do with the slip ball you referenced. That just shows your not in balanced flight and your nose is yawing away from your heading. Usually that would be compensated with rudder although some aircraft do have yaw trim. Trim is simply an adjustment to the flight serfices to reduce resistance on the controls. You can be trimmed for a climb, in which case you can take your hands off the controls (fixed wing) and the aircraft will continue to climb. You can be in trim in a descent or in level flight. It just means your not fighting against the controls. If an aircraft was not trimmed lets say for pitch (many aircraft only have trim for pitch) and you relaxed your grip on the controls the aircraft would want to pitch nose up or down. Thanks for the tutorial I look forward to flying the Apache soon.

[@CasmoTV]

“Generally means” which is another way of saying doesn’t always mean. Thanks but I suggest trying to make videos a few times and understanding the challenges inherent in necking down a complicated topic into a few mins before you throw too many stones.

[@Andy-cc8un]

sorry if you felt I was throwing stones I really wasn't trying to come across like that. I was trying to help. Trim is not a complex subject but is often misunderstood by virtual pilots who have not had real world flight experience (again not throwing stones I have no idea what your experience is, I'm talking about your viewers). Yes making videos is not easy I don't have the personality for it, but I have instructed so I understand what its like to explain terms like trim.@@CasmoTV