Catastrophic Failure | Running the Game

[@XyphileousLF]

"I expected the players to..." Famous last words.

[@Alresu]

Yeah.... That lead my three level 1 players to stumble into a cliffhanger after angering a wizard and (by proxy) 13 skeletons...

[@PaulGaither]

The 4e Redbox has a solo adventure for you and your first player to build their character based on the actions they want to take. It begins with the PC in a horse drawn wagon next to the driver, who gets hit by an arrow and falls unconscious. What the player does next is supposed to help guide them down a path of healer (I cast lay on hands and heal the driver), some kind of fighter (I draw my sword and charge), offensive spellcaster (Magic Missile), or rouge/ranger (I throw a dagger or shot my bow or something). What did my first player want to do? Take the reigns from the driver, and start a chase scene to get away from the goblin bandits before they could steal the cargo. The box doesn't have anything ready for that, so I literally had to go off the rails from the first turn and we made a bunch of stuff up as we went before we could get back on track. I had the Monster Vault with the Essentials MM which had stats for a horse, made a DC for animal handling (knowing how to control the horse and cart), made a check for the cargo on the bumpy ride and so forth.

[@postofficeinternetonce]

@@Alresu lx

[@phishinround420]

I literally write two even three possible general outcomes to encounters. Even some non-hostile ones. Expecting players to go down one path can cause problems. I always try to leave elements of realism. Yea a knight or paladin has high AC and HP, but, if a player can “present” a situation where they may have advantage I go with it. I never try to limit things too much. My general thinking is as such: If an encounter or npc that is meant to further the narrative of the campaign is played out and they don’t get the info they need or whatever, I try to implement it in a cohesive coherent way natural to the story flow. Example, they kill important npc… maybe some drunk commoner has the same info. Or a shopkeeper. I admit, it’s hard if you’re not using modules (I’m not at the moment) but the potential for both the PC’s and the DM is only limited to your imagination. I genuinely may have to beef up some mobs because my players owned last session. But personally I don’t want a combat encounter to last too long. An hour and a half spent fighting one group in a six hour session is a lot of combat. Transversely, it must be long enough to give them the insight as to how to approach future encounters. Everything said, it’s a balancing act.

[@XyphileousLF]

@@phishinround420 When I started seriously running games around 12 I used a few modules that were complete duds and haven't touched them since. I like setting up premises that can grow or contract to how I feel a game should go (full bore multi-year campaign or three session adventures) and then leaning heavily on improv. So heavily that at this point I only write setups and bad ends. Combat is tough. Continuity is my drug with D&D. The first time I cashed in on a year of subtle and pervasive foreshadowing that my players understood but didn't see coming was when I decided I was a tried and true Dungeon Master. But a part of this is the dice and stat blocks. If the rules aren't being used at a time when the dice can decide the direction a story goes I find that the DM has robbed everyone at the table of an integral aspect of D&D; everyone being shocked at what just happened. I find combat to be useful in three ways mainly; plot advancement (kill the lich!) precise gameplay (find the invisible rogue that stole your mcguffin before he gets away!) and most importantly; tension building. This is why I refuse to run modules. When you are tailoring a story to fit a group you can really get them to engage with it and as a result the combats themselves feel like the obstacles rather than the monsters in them. So hitting your party with a bandit ambush as they are on their way to confront Lord Voithos about the letter correspondence between him and the vampire they just slew feels like a lid being clamped on the boiling story-pot the tables abrewin'. The players fight desperately to get beyond the engagement and you fight back because the visceral moment to moment engagement pays off with every miss and crit while simultaneously increasing the stakes of the whole plot with every minute the party is dallied. Then, after the dust settles and the bodies are being looted they find orders to kill the party, signed with an ominous and obvious "-V". "That motherfucker! Verily we shall project some sharp words towards this lord!" This can backfire and/or lead to burnout, but after four years my party still has gut reactions to the phrase "loud buzzing" because of the time that I ran six consecutive sessions of trekking through the jungle, lost, encountering almost exclusively bugs. They got burnt-out, and when they realized it wasn't going to end anytime soon they were forced to set their jaws and persevere for the sake of survival. Its all about the kind of game you are running and how willingly the players (DM included) compromise and conspire for it's sake. Me and my long running players agree that combat, while slow, is a necessary sacrifice to charge the back-to-back-to-back roleplay sessions with an air of severity and as you said; realism. Sometimes that means a four hour combat sadly. EDIT: checking with my players after the fact, they think I'm onto something but overall say that its the way I bring realism to the battlefields I lay out (slopes, difficult terrain, verticality, unknown optional enemies, striking set pieces, ect)

[@tress4726]

DM "Everyone in the village is terrified of the Dragon that lives on the mountain." LVL2 "I wanna go climb that mountain..."

[@jonothanthrace1530]

"No one visits the privy while waiting for the regent!" is hilarious and perfect.

[@WarlordM]

I know. Damn his player's are dumb assholes.

[@knightofglory5045]

Warlord M woah. Wtf why

[@fhuber7507]

@@knightofglory5045 "Nobody goes to the privy..." is pretty much the same as saying: "Sorry, you are going to be arrested." People get nervous waiting to see the prosecutor for interrogation. Even if they expect to be a witness for the prosecution. So waiting to see them is a natural time to need to go.

[@rhyzvanic3660]

Literally sounds like a monty python sketch

[@Blastadonn]

Godfather reference?

[@latieraeve]

"Im human" he says as he talk at inhuman speeds while juggling simultaneously

[@Brickerbrack]

He's a witch! Burn him! :p

[@sherizaahd]

Build a Bridge out of him!

[@Hiko96786]

He turned me into a Newt!

[@Rotaretilbo]

A newt!?

[@Parker8752]

They got better...

[@vp21ct]

Sometimes, the most important thing the DM can say is . . . "Are you Sure you wanna do that?"

[@NevTheDeranged]

Also never be afraid to say something like "as an experienced fighter, your instincts tell you this situation is pretty dire" or whatever.

[@The-Strong-One]

@@NevTheDeranged true, its okay to tell natural feelings. Thats literally part if insight. Intuition and natural instincts

[@sassytabasco]

​@@NevTheDerangedPassive perception is maybe the most underutilized DM tool. It's such a logical way to feed your players hints.

[@TrulyAndCompletely]

​@sassytabasco passive insight, too. You're right, good for dm to keep note of these things.

[@rogersy6742]

Imagine how much exp matt gained after he killed his real boss lol

[@finnianquail8881]

Roger Sy 1,200 exp, he leveled his beard into LV 9 now

[@KCdoesVOXMetalVocalist]

Matthew, I asked you on Twitter if you'd consider narrating your books, for Audible or something like it. You shyly said you weren't really good at acting. I just want to point something out: I run a small computer repair shop and like listening to stuff over my ceiling speaker while I build / repair / smash computers. I work 7-days-a-week and never have to time to read a book (the life of a business owner I guess). So I've been putting on videos (such as this very one) and get lost in listening to you tell the stories of your adventurers. Even when you synopsize previous games I find your verbiage and cadence incredibly fun and engaging to listen to! Please consider narrating your books. Until then, your KZbin videos will do me fine :)

[@mcolville]

Thanks Kenneth. :D A lot of folks have said similar things but the problem is: my novels aren't lighthearted fun. The videos are entertaining, funny, edited to keep them engaging. The books have a lot of ethics and psychology and philosophy in them and they're about pain and death and no one ends up happy or together. So when people hear the audio they often respond with "Oh. Wow, this isn't what I expected. You're so much more animated in your videos!" Or "in real life!" or whatever. But that's really a reaction to the tone of the book. And that tone, I think, requires some acting chops. Which I ain't got! :D ALL THAT BEING SAID! I did do this over the weekend. www.squaremans.com/Priest%20Part%2001_01.mp3

[@KCdoesVOXMetalVocalist]

Sweet! Super cool! Can't wait to listen to you in the shop tomorrow, man. Keep doing what you do, you're great at it. Thanks for the replies!

[@findingnamessux]

True story. I'm doing that now while world building for next years campaign.

[@dacdaddy517]

Kenneth Lyon ik

[@timgrier3317]

Just a thought, but the classic novel Dune is nearly completely political intrigue and and inner monologue but it quite enjoyable as an audio book. I agree, my life in the armed forces doesn't allow me to really sit down with a book and so audio books are great. Give it a try and if it doesn't do well, I don't think you'll have lost much. Hell, if your just too uncomfortable with your voice acting, you might hire someone you do prefer

[@Jalynfein]

"Place your soldiers in a position from which there is no hope of survival, and they will fight like demons with no regard for their lives." -Sun Tzu, Pre-D&D.

[@EliJahTebbens]

Have you got any post-D&D Sun Tzu quotes?

[@capwithoutacountry]

"I didn't say that." -Sun Tzu, D&D 6e

[@gabrielforsberg8744]

"The Druid can wildshape into a fucking Owlbear if I say it can" - Sun Tzu, Post- D&D

[@fergusofdalibor4264]

This comment chain is underrated

[@larsespeland6068]

rule of cool says he can Sun Tzu, not just you my guy. It shall always be considered. @@gabrielforsberg8744

[@StarWindEnergin]

The way Phil handled it was really mature. It would've been easy to just stay angry, keep his version of events to himself and just brood over it. Instead, he came back and sat down to hear your side of it and give his and you guys got a resolution. Way harder if he doesn't make that most important step of coming to talk.

[@dyykaacovers]

Anyone else just rewatch this every couple of months cos its such a freaking good story?

[@ThatJ0eGuy]

Yuuuuup

[@cl0udbear]

"What a great way to introduce some bad guys. Maybe there's a way to do it without sacrificing a player, though." *laughs in Chain Episode 1*

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

Fair point. Though I will point out that everything before getting to the city was a kind of prologue as the internal city politics are the meat and potatoes of the campaign. Tom's character was always meant to be Boots (and no not like the memes about it) and Phil never wanted to be the leader which is why his character also dies at the earliest opportunity. But as I said it's a bad way to frame a concept that you have issues with in your own DMing style.

[@alalalala57]

You have to admit tho, having such passionate players, regardless of the mistakes made, is awesome.

[@Jackolantirn]

A Catastrophic Failure where everyone learns is a Critical Success.

[@Audioworm]

Task failed successfully.

[@divinkitty9452]

"He reaches back and pulls out a leather thong" Me: nearly spits out drink and eyes widen. "Well this took a weird turn- oh there's a key on the end."

[@Jindorek]

hahahahaha i had the same thought.

[@daracaex]

I've done this twice. The first time, I knew that my players would end up getting killed if they continued deeper into the dungeon, so I threw endless reinforcements at them until they got the message and retreated to rest. I was brand new to DMing and regret that decision. The second time, it actually worked out and became one of the greatest moments I've ever had DMing. The party was caught infiltrating a keep (this was The Shadow Rift of Umbraforge, adventure 3 of the Scales of War in 4e) and surrounded by enemies. This time, they actually recognized that they were outmatched and surrendered. Then, I had the main villain give his villain speech. And, knowing full-well it was cheesy as all get out, I had the villain make the offer: "Join me, and you might be spared from the coming chaos." And one of my players, a Dragonborn barbarian, ACTUALLY TOOK THE OFFER. He mentioned that it might actually be in-character for him to defect, so I and other players told him that, if he wanted to, he should feel free to do so. The barbarian was given to me to use as an NPC and the player rolled up a Kenku rogue to join the party. I had the barbarian keep a recurring role, actually helping the PCs at one point when he learned that his new boss was a bit too destructive for his tastes after all, but also fighting them when ordered. I, at least, thought it was super cool, and I think my players enjoyed that plot twist as well.

[@wilsan806]

Something similar happened in a game i played in. We were a group of 7th level adventures on a mission from a secret agency to investigate a cult, which was said to have an ancient artifact of definite destruction. An agent from the secret agency had set us up with an informant from the cult, in the nearby forest, in 3 days. Next session, our DM described to us, as we entered this corrupted glade, with skulls on pikes surrounding it, we saw in the middle were 2 hooded figures. One of them a hunchback. My character, a human vengeance paladin, immediately sensed strong evil as he neared the one standing upright and put a single hand on the greatsword at his back. We started a conversation with him, and after a bit of back and forth, he gave us an ultimatum. If we wanted any information from him, we had to give him something in return. He then looked at me for a couple of seconds, as if sizing me up. "And what do _you_ want?" he asked me. I grunted at him and said we were here for the information we had been promised. "No, what do you _really_ want?" he answered, "My lord is capable of granting any wish or desire one might have, mind you". A sinister smile had begun to form on his face. My paladin, not the sharpest tool in the shed with his 8 int, told him a bit of his backstory and how he needed to get revenge on a gang called The Frosty Boys. "Ah, revenge... I'm sure my lord would see to it that you had some help from him in some form. However, as I'm sure you know, nothing in this world is free..." He stretched his right arm out towards me. A piece of parchment was birthed from flame in his palm. "After you sign this contract and 3 moons have passed, He will come to you in your sleep. Oh, and don't worry about what this says, it's just a formality." One of other PCs placed his hand on my shoulder. "Wait a minute, at least think abou...". Too late, I had broken free and was already signing the contract with a pen very kindly distributed by the cult guy. Afterwards, he gave us the information we needed and wished us good luck with our mission. To not make this much longer, I have to boil the story down a bit for now. Throughout the rest of the campaign, I had a pact with Asmodeus, and I was now part warlock. At the climax of the last dungeon, the main stronghold of the cult, Asmodeus came to me and said that I would be made lord of a quarter of his realm if I hindered the party. In the final room stood a cult leader guy (he wasn't really important) and Asmodeus said GO. Ultimately, I was slain, the cult stopped and the artifact, which was revealed to be a Monkey's Paw, was turned over to the secret agency. The remaining party members were paid a huge sum by for the completed mission. As a new player, this was fucking amazing to be a part of and I hope other people have similarly awesome experiences in DnD. Sadly the group parted ways and I can't find new one. Well this was a block of text, but fun to write. Thanks for reading!

[@guilmon182]

No matter how the adventure actually panned out, I think we can all agree that's it makes for a fantastic story.

[@irosencrantz882]

guilmon182... hell, yes. As soon as I get money (I am broke and unemployed), I am buying this man's fiction work. (Not audio books, however. He talks too fast!😃)

[@Madhattersinjeans]

It's brilliant really, they achieved a super unique outcome. At the time as Matt says it probably didn't feel this way. But to us this is a great unexpected outcome. Bad outcomes can be just as entertaining as good ones if you know what you're doing.

[@martixy2]

Failing like this is important. It teaches players how to deal with their own biases towards game vs real life. This is experience. This is what it looks like when the players level up, not the characters. Also, boy have I been repeating the importance of setting expectations every time you start a new campaign like broken record. So much so I might as well stamp it on my forehead by this point.

[@rmsgrey]

Rule 0 of DMing: it's always the DM's fault. In a situation like this, Matt was the only person who had all the pieces to know what was going to happen, so he was the only person who was in a position to intervene to keep things from falling apart. Of course, even he didn't know how things were actually going to go, but he was the person who could notice that they weren't going like he expected. On the other hand, while, in the moment, it definitely would have felt like a disaster and a failure, the final outcome is anything but a disaster - everyone's got a story they'll be telling for years, the players have connected more with the campaign lore, and the heroes achieved their objectives (albeit at a higher price than they might have preferred)

[@rmsgrey]

DnD Basement Okay, if the DM and the players have the same ideas about how the world works, and how a given NPC will react to a given situation, then the players should be able to reliably predict the outcomes of their actions, and bear primary responsibility for keeping unwanted outcomes from happening once the DM has explained the situation to them. The catch there is that the DM has to explain the situation to the players well enough for them to understand it well enough to be able to anticipate the consequences of their actions. That doesn't even sound simple, let alone being easily done. Scenario: the players' third-level characters enter a room occupied by several heavily armed men wearing unfamiliar armor. There's a tense silence broken by one of the characters stepping forward and saying "hello". Unfortunately, it turns out that the armed men are high-level warriors and the Common word for "hello" is a deadly insult in their native tongue. A brief demonstration of advanced combat capabilities later, and the party is rolling up new characters. I hope we can agree that in this situation, the DM bears some responsibility for the TPK... More generally, it's the DM who is primarily responsible for the success of a given session - not success or failure in terms of slaying dragons (or whatever the party's current goal may be) but rather in terms of everyone enjoying themselves and feeling like the game was fun to play - the DM gets that responsibility partly because they're the person who can do most to influence things, and partly because they have the most information about what is or might be happening in the game. If things go wrong, almost all the time, the DM is not clear of all fault.

[@rmsgrey]

DnD Basement Sure, the players misunderstand things sometimes, but that misunderstanding comes across in their actions. In the misread hostage situation, when the guy declared his intent to shoot the rescued prisoner, the DM had the opportunity to get him to hold off on rolling and check he knew what he was doing. On the other hand, that sort of confusion is exactly what happens sometimes in real life - it's a tense situation, someone thinks they see a weapon, and someone ends up shot. When it isn't something that's all over in an instant, if the players are misunderstanding something significant, then it is going to turn up in their actions and their discussions - and it's the DM who knows the actual facts that he intended to convey, so it's up to him to correct matters (either by making things clear(er) to the players, or by changing the facts behind the scenes) - if he does it right, the players may never realise they misunderstood something... As for Matt's situation, I disagree that the players believed that they had to sacrifice a character - they may have had a plan for the paladin's escape that would have worked if he hadn't been summarily executed, or they may have believed that they could stage a daring rescue at the public hanging, but they definitely weren't expecting the guard to murder the paladin immediately. If they'd known that the guard might kill an unarmed prisoner, they probably would have tried something different, and the result would have been something different. The failure was not in the players reactions to the world they thought they were in, nor the DM's handling of the events of the world he thought they were in, but in the DM's failure to tell the players the sort of world they were in - one where surrender is a viable option, but death is a real possibility, but also where death is not the end.

[@rmsgrey]

DnD Basement Yes, I do believe the DM should always work for the players' benefit, but that's not the same as working for the characters' benefit - the DM's goal should be for everyone to have fun and enjoy creating a good story. That doesn't mean describing everything in detail, but it does mean making sure that the players have the information they need to make their characters' decisions intelligently. You don't have to tell someone they're facing a high-level vampire, but if you're going to let low-level characters walk into a room with a high-level vampire in, you should have a good reason why the vampire's there - and that reason will shape what information you should give the players, and how. As DM, you can have a room set up with an undetectable trap that will instantly kill anyone in the room 30 seconds after the door is closed which wipes out the entire party with no chance for them to avoid it. It'd be pretty lousy DMing to do that, but it's an option that's always open to you. As for your executed prisoner, I did say that in real life, that's the sort of mistake that happens in that sort of situation, which I intended to convey that I thought letting the guy shoot the prisoner was a reasonable choice in that situation. Here's another scenario to consider: The palace is a prominent landmark, clearly visible from most points in the city, and from the surrounding countryside for some distance. As the party arrived in the city the previous day, they picked an inn on a street with a clear view of the palace to the east. The next day, the party leaves the inn, with a stated intention of going to the palace, they stop outside the inn to check their surroundings and estimate how long it would take them to reach the palace on foot. The party leader, a ranger with ranks in navigation and a map,says its time they got moving to get to their appointment at the palace and, glancing at the map on the table, the player says "okay, we set off west along the road". Should the DM say anything about the fact they're headed away from the palace, or should he just let the players do what they said and not mention what should be completely obvious to their characters? Based on what you /said/, you would let them walk out of town and not do anything until they run into a random encounter or something - you told them what their characters saw already, and it's their mistake. If that's actually what you'd do, then I agree that neither of us should play with the other. Me, the moment it's obvious that the players stated actions are inconsistent with their stated intentions given the information they have, I'd query it and probably remind them of the information. In this case, I'd probably say something like: "Okay, you turn your back on the palace and start walking toward the city walls." expecting them to realise something's wrong and interrupt. You don't tell the players every detail, but the characters, who've grown up in the world, will know all sorts of things about the way the world works that you just don't have time to tell the players in advance. If some of that information becomes relevant, then it's absolutely the DM's responsibility to share it with the players. For example, if the characters know that they're in a world where armed warriors standing guard over condemned prisoners who've just insulted them and who may be able to escape by unknown means if you take your attention off them, warriors in that position are liable to kill the prisoner rather than risk another escape. If the characters know that, then they might not be so keen to insult the armed warrior guarding them and a companion so that the companion can demonstrate their ability to escape without trace. And if the characters know that about the world, it's the DM's responsibility to make sure that the players have been told that at some point before they find out by one of their characters being killed in that manner. That doesn't mean that they can't kill the character off - just that they should tell the players that their characters can die if the situation warrants it.

[@rmsgrey]

DnD Basement The example isn't something that's actually happened - it's something I made up to illustrate my point more clearly - the map was overkill, but it was in there to make it 100% clear that the player was making a bonehead mistake, despite having all the information to make the right one - simply because he confused east and west. I've played games where the DM conspires to avoid player death, games where a couple of bad rolls mean it's new character time, and games where incidental encounters can't kill you, but plot-relevant choices can. All of them have been good in different ways. Minor point about the prison: I strongly disagree that, when chained against the wall, it can be said to be a mistake to stay where you are rather than use abilities you don't have in order to phase out of the manacles (or whatever else you think the Paladin should have done to get away from the guard). You enjoy approaching combat as a strategic exercise; I've played with groups that just enjoy rolling big numbers and mowing through enemies - and where taking ten minutes to decide the best tactical option is regarded as bad role-playing because you couldn't stop a real fight while you decided what to do next. The important thing is not how the group has fun, but that players and DM have a common set of expectations of how the game works, so they can have fun together rather than being miserable at cross-purposes...

[@dylanmcla]

People keep forgetting that THESE ARE NEW PLAYERS. Matt says it like 20 times and people are judging them as if they've all been playing for years.

[@sploofmcsterra4786]

Sure but he didn't make the mistake, they did and they need to learn from it.

[@alalalala57]

@@sploofmcsterra4786 They all do. Its a collaborative experience, after all.

[@princeOpalite3650]

@@sploofmcsterra4786 ahh yes shame new players for making a mistake in dnd...a hobby they are new to...just like kids need to be shamed for making anatomy mistakes in art desite being new at it...definitly not a toxic mindset made from a lack of empathy for new players.

[@tylerp.5004]

@@sploofmcsterra4786 How did they make the mistake? Literally Matt's point of the whole video is that he didn't explain how he ran games, and that he hinged the experience on expected players acting a certain way and forgetting how players often act and react to circumstances, especially those that are intended to be out of their control or having a fixed output.

[@futuza]

@@tylerp.5004 the only mistake I see them making is not asking the dwarf player what they learned why they got on the horses, just hearing it might've changed everything. But I can't blame them for it.

[@Nerdarchy]

There was a multitude of poor player decisions that led to their being captured- they ignored all the tells that you built into the narrative and the battle not to be captured was the natural consequence of the player's inaction. That's the height of player agency and just because they didn't like the outcomes they allowed to happen doesn't mean it's your fault. A good DM presents problems and adjudicates the players solutions.

[@fhuber7507]

Absolutely... they were told point blank: DO NOT TAKE THE SHIELD TO TOWN. They took the shield to town. At that point they could have been accused of being in league with the people who killed the baron, since none were trying to claim the title. Why carry that thing to town if you aren't going to claim the throne?

[@velkonemriam1935]

Exactly. The DM creates the setting of the adventure. If the players are gonna make poor decisions or not pay attention, then they should be accepting of the consequences.

[@amunak_]

At the same time though it may have been still poorly communicated by the DM. Like sometimes this stuff gets lost between the DM and the players even though it would be obvious to the characters that (for example) some fight is unwinnable. Or that some characters are shady AF. I would personally - before the fight for capture - make it clear that the characters winning is an extremely unlikely scenario, and that they know it. "Are you sure you want to do it this way?" That'd give them at least *some* option to abort at the last minute after everything else failed. Same for the jail scene - make it VERY clear that the players are putting their characters' lines at stake and if anything goes even a tiny bit wrong they WILL die.

[@ronniejdio9411]

He was justified...

[@ronniejdio9411]

@@fhuber7507 johnny gnome cash sang " don't take your shield to town boy "

[@Kingpin1880]

"Learn from my mistakes!" Victor, black powder merchant.

[@NorroTaku]

never surrender! props for the wizard player to let himself be angry for a while and them come back and then communicate about what happened

[@woohoo4576]

When I feel down about DMing or burnt out, I like to step away and come back to watching some of these videos. They remind me of how it's all about fun, creativity, and spending time with friends. Matt's a great KZbin-Uncle

[@davidbrady1250]

I totally empathize with the players once they were in that throne room, and I would have chosen the unwinnable fight every time as well. The one time I let my character get captured the DM snapped the DMG shut, announced "you die in prison," and then literally ended the campaign. (We've all had bad DMs, right?) I took away the lesson that agency was the ONLY thing that made my PC "not an NPC", and an NPC is just furniture the DM can toss out on a whim. Just now in listening to this do I realize that this is actually a failure to role-play on my part: I've run many lawful, good, or just plain cowardly characters, each of whom would have submitted to being arrested in that throne room, but I would have chosen the fight to certain death every single time. Fear of loss of agency is that mindbending. Excellent vid, thanks!

[@banban8481]

Matthew: Don't take away players agency! Me in my mind: Some of you may die, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

[@atrinoch7437]

LOVED this episode! The amount of cool stuff with the halfling and the jail and planning was super interesting! I especially love the way you retell your sessions. That could be a series itself. Ps. No one minds 30 minute videos.

[@DearthXalex]

I love that you call it the "doobly-doo" and I love, "peace, out."

[@AlwaysLoudAA]

dang, I wish I could play DnD at work with my co-workers...

[@tidioute06]

I wish I could even get a group together to play anywhere. Being an adult really sucks sometimes.

[@blg020]

I wish I could play on the clock at work.

[@ghuito8202]

@@tidioute06 I recommend you visit roll20.net, a website where D&D can be played online. It also has a forum for DMs to look for players, or players to look for DMs :).

[@TerryAVanguard]

@@tidioute06 one of the big things people forget about being an adult is " you set the rules and how your life gose" if you want to do something you must make time for it

[@kotzpenner]

I literally changed my workplan around playing every Wednesday lol

[@MastertheGamerpg]

I appreciate you pointing out your own short comings when running games. Helps me learn from your mistakes.

[@alecchristiaen4856]

"Throw your soldiers in a position from which there's no escape, and they will prefer death to flight." -Sun Tzu, Art of War Applies to players too.

[@DimT670]

I think surrendering becommes an option only when the players really bond with their characters and they understand the stakes. when i started playing dnd i joined a game that was running for about 1 year as a npc that was with the heroes. When i did a wrong move and started a fight with some thugs at the inn, the player that was with me was in favour of surrendering because he realised that 1 this fight was not really a life or death situation, at least if we didnt push it,meaning that surrender didnt mean straight up death and 2 that the reprecussions from surrendering would not be very bad, at least not as bad as losing our characters. He said that he would rather surrender than take the risk of trying to escape and dying, and as a result let the world be destroyed. Of course this was not a fight that was a part of the main quest so that helped, but still he thought of the goals of his character and decided that if surrendering in that instance meant he could progress faster and/or safer he was ready to surrender

[@rburt3]

FWIW, Matt, I think you did all the right things. Agency also means the players can narrow their own choices and the consequences that resulted seem pretty fair to me. They did decide their own fate despite your herculean efforts to give them a way out. Nice advice in how to deal with the backlash of the players unfortunate choices.

[@Madhattersinjeans]

We only hear his side of the story though, so of course we will assume that his version of events is the correct one. It's quite possible the players were doing their best in their circumstances. Sometimes allowing players pure free reign just means they end up doing dumb things. And not telling them beforehand this is how he runs his campaign might also have clued us in that there wasn't a lot of communication going on. Added on to this some of the players were first timers you can start to build a different picture about what was going on. Some of the players were just entirely ignorant as to how the campaign might end. Some literally didn't know that a character's death doesn't mean the end of a campaign.

[@MorinehtarTheBlue]

Many of the players here were playing D&D for their first time. Also Matt's talking about things like session zero and communicating expectations which is both necessary and easy to forget about. At the end of the day if you are still willing to play with the DM after words you probably don't blame your DM all that much and you still trust them. Also if somebody is conveying their sense of guilt or culpability and you decide to respond with a no you aren't listening to what they're saying to a degree.

[@Fam0usFarm3r]

I think one small tweak which would have saved it would have been to swap to the Dwarf's perspective once the two were captured. According to his retelling, it went from fight to them being held captive (1d4 hours RAW I believe). The dwarf could have gotten in to find them unconscious, perhaps even rallied with the party members who escaped. That way it would have not led to the party members being held prisoner, which suggests they should try and escape on their own. If someone is coming to help them, their idea would be to just wait, or do something which could get them killed. Now, hindsight is 2020, not to discredit Matt, but perhaps it was not handled in an ideal way.

[@bludfyre]

@@Fam0usFarm3r He said the other players met up with the dwarf player, and when he tried to tell them about the key they basically said "we don't care we are running." Maybe he should have stayed with those members of the party, but the players were basically panicked and not thinking straight at that point. A better thing to have done is called a 5 minute break, calm everything down, and start with the free players after the break.

[@Mschickn]

I just did this 3 hours ago. Eerily similar situation. I remembered this video 20 minutes ago and rewatching it has helped. Thank you for everything you do for this hobby Matt.

[@kikedragoon]

I really didn't see the point where the player agency was taken away.

[@kurtisspeer3202]

+kikedragoon Agreed. They weren't picking up what he was putting down. He gave them clues as to what was going on, they didn't bother to investigate/question their motives, but that may be b/c they are inexperienced. They didn't know how they should have been acting, and didn't realize they were getting into trouble.

[@kikedragoon]

They were planning to run at some point, which would have been the best course of action. They just decided not to, it's not like they were forced.

[@license2will340]

I think the point is that the game is for the players. If the players aren't getting it, and they aren't having fun because of that, then the DM is doing something wrong. (At least that's what I've picked up from Matt's videos.)

[@TrenchcoatJesus]

Yes. Even if something is overwhelmingly obvious to yourself as the DM or even a casual observer, that doesn't necessitate the players will notice. D&D is not a game about being right, it's a game about having fun, and your job as a DM is to entertain your players, not punish them for bad decisions. By all means, let bad decisions play out, but try to drop hints to your players when they are on a roll of bad decisions they may not be (or don't seem to be) aware of. The way I will typically do this is when I feel something is character knowledge, but the player isn't aware of it, I will have them roll often an intelligence or wisdom check, whatever seems most applicable. Charisma if it relates to a social encounter. I'll then use the results of that roll to relay some sort of hint to them. For memory I'll typically use wisdom. Rolls aren't always needed. If it's something that character clearly knows, I can just tell them, "By the way, you know this." If it's something they may or may not know, or something they probably know but may or may not remember it right at this crucial moment, I'll have them roll for it. Bottom line, inform and engage your players. Telling them once isn't always enough to inform them, and there's no fun or point in faulting them for a missed communication. It's not about fault. It's your job to inform them, and if that fails, just keep trying.

[@seanminer8183]

Ah, good, I thought it was just me.

[@daspotz5134]

I love this channel

[@RedHandedBandit11]

You didn't take away the player agency, the players did. if a dm will break his rules to keep his players from doing something stupid then there are no consequences, therefore no agency.

[@Madhattersinjeans]

Right but the DM said earlier that these knights just wanted to keep them prisoner until dawn to hang in front of a crowd. Given that they play a very sandbox style it's possible the players imprisoned felt they had no choice but to try and break out when they had a chance. When the wizard insulted the guard he might have expected a combat encounter with the guard but instead the guard just strolls up and executes the player. Or he might have expected the guard to give him a beating. he might not have expected the guard to be an evil paladin. He might also have expected the druid to try and bail him out and gang up on the guard. or hoped that he was just providing a distraction for the druid to escape so he could get to the rest of the players to stage a breakout attempt in the night. Straight up executing him for reasons unknown to the players here wasn't a mistake exactly, the DM tells us this was how the Paladin would behave. But somewhere along the line someone didn't communicate what they were trying to do.

[@lordhawkeye]

The issue with your opinion is that you have forgotten Matt's own words, that he very rarely tells the players why an NPC would act the way they did. He did decide to share as tempers running hot to open up and explain but one should never expect that from the DM. The guard in the story was likely to simply rough the wizard up a bit. It wasn't until the druid escaped that the guard felt pressured to prevent any further escape. A logical reaction if you take a minute and think what would happen if you do action X. It is not the DM's job to give detailed insights to the inner workings of every NPC. Some common sense is expected from the players.

[@alalalala57]

@@lordhawkeye I'd have combat begin, give the prisoner disadvantage at initiative, so that I never, ever take away the agency of the player. You want to execute the player, DM? Then just like the players, you have to earn it.

[@Sh4rkQueen]

@S R Exactly this. It doesn't make sense to me for the guard to execute the wizard considering they want to frame them and publicly hang them specifically to pin crimes on them. Wouldn't executing the wizard make her boss even more upset? But it makes sense in the way that she's evil and when she's angry she might do drastic things.

[@Jognt]

@@Sh4rkQueen Players need to understand that there's this thing they need to do: Trust. If you're not going to trust your DM or feel like you cannot trust your DM: Find a different group. D&D isn't a PC RPG with poor AI where every NPC follows a strict set of logic. They can have their own reasoning and decisionmaking. I think it's good that Matt's group talked it over and that the players told him to let them be mad for half an hour. I see no fault from Matt's side.

[@ekuliyo]

I don't think you railroaded them at all. I don't see any point in the story where they didn't have a choice.

[@Seoulwanderer]

Luke True, but the players being new to D&D and not knowing the DM’s style may have contributed to them feeling like they had no agency. My group of third level adventurers just picked a fight with a death knight and were surprised they lost. They had assumed I wouldn’t put an adversary in front of them that they couldn’t face. Fortunately, I had planned for them possibly making that choice, so even though we almost had a permadeath through a botched death save, the death knight didn’t even see them as enough of a threat to make sure they stayed down.

[@vukkulvar9769]

@@Seoulwanderer I assume asking the players "Do you surrender or do you attempt to resist ?" before the combat start would have put the idea of surrendering as an option in their mind.

[@Seoulwanderer]

@@vukkulvar9769 What happened is that they inadvertently caused the awakening of this death knight who had been slumbering for centuries. The death knight didn't care about them, he was just going to walk out of the tomb. The wizard player positioned himself in the doorway of the tomb so the death knight just cut him (and the thief who was also in the way) down and kept walking. I thought with all the build-up and clues that they'd realize a death knight was a bit above their challenge rating but nope. They went for it. It was a sobering moment for them (which I think is a good thing).

[@vukkulvar9769]

​@@Seoulwanderer I agree.

[@greylithwolf]

@@Seoulwanderer "They had assumed I wouldn’t put an adversary in front of them that they couldn’t face." This right here is *exactly* the meta-gaming that the DM guide warns against. This is the thing that so many people don't realize when it comes to meta-gaming. People come in with the perception of "this is a game that our friend designed for us to win." Whereas in reality, the game is only designed to be played, and can very well be won or lost. People think that because this is a game where they only have one life that there should always be a way out. Sometimes the way out of the prison was to avoid going to prison in the first place.

[@erc1971erc1971]

"Everytime you set your players up in a situation where they have to surrender...they will not." Oh boy, that is a lesson I have learned the hard way over the decades. The most recent catastrophe I was part of what when I was a player in a friend's Deadlands Game...and it was completely the fault of the dice. First encounter of a brand new campaign. We encounter some bad guys and their animated zombies, which required the 3 PC's make fear rolls. One player fails and suffers a heart attack on the fear table, putting him out of the fight. My player takes a big hit and totally fails all her rolls to absorb the damage - damage penalties and phobia vs. undead penalties put me out of the fight. Before we even get our first turn, 2/3rds of the party are out. Now, TPKing an hour into a campaign wouldn't provide anything positive and the poor GM literally had to have the cavalry ride over the hill to save us. To this day we still laugh about how that went horribly wrong.

[@RickReadsToYou]

Personally, this sounds like an amazing scenario to play in. I would have loved that session and it would have been an epic tale for years. Scenarios like what you described are why I love the game!

[@korik1]

If it's appropriate I'd love to see the email you sent the players after the catastrophe explaining what kind of GM you are and your expectations. I think that example might help many GMs, myself included, better understand their own style.

[@bohemianprince7944]

This is the best series ever. I'm writing my first campaign, aiming real high. Would not be as put together without this. THANK YOU

[@LordSephleon]

I don't know... I must be the absolute minority as a player (and a DM). If my character's ignorance/naivety leads to imprisonment, then it's on me. I generally trust the DM not to be doing things out of spite and that everything is a somewhat natural cause/effect progression. I don't mind waiting for something to happen if there is nothing I could possibly do to free myself without getting killed (well, pending my character's personality. Some might prefer to die with a weapon in hand). As a DM, I always hope that my players trust me enough to know that whatever happens is contributing to the collaborative story and is either a cause (usually started by them, but not always) or an effect (either direct or indirect to a previous cause). If it is an effect (such as imprisonment), then there is very likely to be some way to release them, even if it ends up being another PC or a friendly NPC posting their bail or otherwise getting them released the "legal" way. It makes for a boring story to have the PCs sit in jail for X amount of weeks or months (unless it is a huge factor in some grand scheme I have planned, such as the villains actually succeeding in conquering more land or something, but I try to avoid that kind of plot) I commend you for having tried everything you could to provide the PCs everything. I'd say in this case, you didn't fail... at least, not in the way that you believe. If anything, the fact that you had a group of players completely new to roleplaying worked against you. Some minor events beforehand giving them the not-so-subtle hint that they have plenty of options at their disposal may have helped (but then again, maybe not. Players - veterans and newbies alike - are a fickle, tricky bunch). I think you did absolutely everything you could given what the players chose to do. I won't lie: hearing my players express comments that they feel railroaded would have instantly made me want to reveal all of their mistakes and all the possibilities that they missed out on at some point, but that's because I am more of a sandbox DM and don't like being accused of railroading when I always offer the PCs the pen and paper to write THEIR OWN story with (through roleplaying). Kind of a pride thing. Major flaw on my part, I know.

[@TrueMaskGames]

+LordSephleon Are you me? Seriously, all the stuff that you just wrote could have come straight out of my mouth. The only thing I would say Matthew did wrong was not telling the players in advance what kind of game he runs. I always tell my players before campaigns: "Look guys, I am going for a realistic game world where NPCs have their own personalities and agendas and many things are happening at the same time. Your characters are not the centre of the world unless you manage to make them the centre of the world. I will make it hard for you to win, but not impossibly so. And I will give you all the options you want as long as you earn them in character." That said, I do mostly play with experienced players. While I do play many oneshots with new players I tend to only play campaigns with people who have played at least a couple of years already. That might be a mistake on my part, but currently that is how it is. I agree with you, LordSephleon, on the last paragraph 100%. I run my game worlds as giant sandboxes. The current one is the size of a continent (although realistically it is more like 3-4 realms that the PCs can experience at the moment, but that is still very big). My players enjoy the freedom and feel of a living, breathing world, although that sometimes means that they will be hit with nasty things without them being to blame. I hate being accused of railroading. Of course I do it sometimes, but only whith minor things. The pride thing is definitely something that happens to me too. There is a voice in my head sometimes screaming "How dare they ruin MY game? Ungrateful players!" And even though I know rationally that it is the players' game as well and I am doing it so that they have fun with me that voice is not always easy to silence...

[@LordSephleon]

+True Mask Games I also play with experienced players. Longtime group of 20 years, actually. Unfortunately, we each want something different out of our games nowadays (me being the most passionate about gaming now) and it has become harder and harder to run games for them as time goes on since my tastes (heavier on roleplaying with less frequent but more dangerous combat, grim/dark fantasy, horror, investigation, exploration), have sort of turned me into the black sheep of the group even though they still consider me to be the group's main/primary DM. Hmm... Perhaps someday we should join forces and lay the epic story smackdown on some poor PCs. Or I could just play in one of your games, or vice-versa. :)

[@TrueMaskGames]

LordSephleon That sounds very much like my story, although I have to say that I am fortunate enough to have atleast half a dozen people who like my games, so I continue running them! :) You are welcome to join one of my online-oneshots anytime! I have recently started running one nearly every week!

[@LordSephleon]

....we shall talk. :)

[@LordSephleon]

Added you in a circle with my actual Google+ account. The account with Lord Soth as the avatar. :)

[@blackcirclewalker]

I'm at 15:26 and I had to just pause and absorb and think. I feel like I've drunk from the well of human understanding, and it's not my first time feeling that way from your videos. I appreciate you.

[@brittanyluttrell9187]

A video on alignment would be /awesome/. If you're gonna cover settings: Plancescape!! I think doing a live hex map building would be awesome. I don't really "get" hex maps or hex crawlers, so I'd love the opportunity to build one together.

[@cordingdesert9566]

I've seen it go both ways when it comes to this, demanding the players surrender. I've been a player when the dm captures us, gives us no agency, and it turns out terrible. But I've run a campaign where the story demands they be captured to experience it fully, and the players know that this is the story, so they go along with it. I think both can happen it just really depends on the dm and the players.

[@SinntraK]

As a player, I want to say to other players, don't be afraid of getting arrested or detained. Have two or three plans of escape because it's always a possibility. And if you play things well, it could even be beneficial. I own a guard now because of how the last time I was arrested played out.

[@TheMillerMilitia]

I just had nightmare flashbacks to the last campaign I ran, critical failure to say the least, for all the reasons described in this video -- years have passed since my last campaign. It started with a simple idea that took to much hold on me, it railroaded the group, the party lost agency, and I failed to fix it in real time. What was that idea you ask? *"The Drow Colosseum"* -- the Underdark, thrilling combat, cheering fans, fantasy "Gladiator" -- yeah none of that happened; the party never even came within a 10-ft pool of the Colosseum. Right out of the gates the adventure stumbled, the party got ambushed by Drow, but the Drow wanted to capture the party not kill them (they needed capable gladiators for their nefarious bloodsport) to do this quickly I decided the Drow would have a magical something or other to put the characters to sleep or incapacitate them. I didn't think it through though, I was focused on the Colosseum, this was just the opening bit after all, the magics used to pacify them was supposed to be so high level that it wouldn't give the party a chance to beat it -- long story short a character rolls a Nat 20 on his will save against the spell -- I wasn't prepared for someone to resist the magic, queue argument over super high DC's that can't be beat with a d20 vs. Nat 20 rolls beating everything. In the end I railroaded the party and forced them into the next part. They awake in a jail cell, manacled to the walls, Drow guards stand outside. They immediately lose their cool, and begin doing whatever they can to break free -- I had planned on them being clever and observant yada yada. A Drow Captain comes in gives them the speech about how they are going to fight in the Colosseum -- the party is basically like "that ain't happenin', bub." The party lashes out with their feet at the Drow and the half-orc keeps trying to make strength checks to break the manacles, I imply that they are helpless and if they keep struggling the Drow threaten to execute someone. But the party is worked into a lather, they are like a cornered wolf, they will not go along in any capacity with the Drow, they are trying to escape like mad men; of course the half-orc rolls a Nat 20 demanding the manacles break -- in that moment I had to decide if I have the guards kill a player as he is helplessly bound or improvise the half-orc escape? Everyone was already so pissed I couldn't bring myself to kill a player, so the half-orc basically escapes and kills the Drow barehanded (little help from me, little help from the player being a powergamer) frees the party and they basically run for it through the halls of the Underdark. We stopped there, hours had passed with nobody having fun, there was no Colosseum, they never made it out of the Underdark, we never came back to those characters. I haven't DM'd since that utter implosion, and this was by no means my first rodeo... If you read this story, learn from it, and DO NOT do what I did.

[@Ranxior55]

I just caught up on all of your videos and it's completely inspired me to be a better DM. I've lost some morale because I only have 2 players invested with the others missing sessions and such, but through the sociology video I've gotten fill ins and someone coming back full time in the summer, and a third fully invested player and dice sets/PHBs have been purchased by the players fully invested now and it's made me so happy! Thank you!

[@gustavodeffis5393]

Love this video. the "inevitability of the story" what happens when a set of actions leads to a logical place where the DM and the players have no longer control. Is the Story Talking. Always leads to fantastic moments like getting killed on a cell or even murdering a player or...

[@itme626]

14:13 I played with a DM who tried doing this by basically putting us on a time sensative rescue mission with the bbeg actively trying to stop us. I used so much high-level wizard bullshitery that that DM stopped giving me specific numbers for the next three sessions out of fear that I would once again shatter the plot they were actively rebuilding

[@scottwilliams1078]

Wow, I had always (this past day after I found this channel) wondered why you had the Evolve art on the shelf in the back. One of my favorite games by the way, now I understand you worked for Turtle Rock the creators of Evolve. Awesome!

[@danielmerrill8193]

It may be the way you retell it, but nothing at any point seemed unreasonable. In fact, the discomfort of the players may be with how real the situation was. I haven't DM'ed much and none of my players have yet encountered the point where a player dies. I'm a little worried about that moment. Everyone is new, including myself, but there is probably only one of my players who would be copacetic with their character dying. Two of my players are very young and would be really mad to lose a character they put time and effort into creating. It would be nice to get your take on how to deal with new players and PC death.

[@Madhattersinjeans]

I know this is a comment from 2 years ago but I would do the following: If the players are about to die just straight up ask them "do you want to keep this character or would you like some divine intervention to keep them alive? Perhaps you might enjoy making a new one with the quest to avenge the fallen player character?" Different people will have different preferences though. So it's a good idea to explain up front how death works and have a discussion about if the players are comfortable with their characters dying in dangerous situations or not. Just a quick 30 minute chat about this could help reduce some of the tension and fear of losing a character someone spends a long time working on. But at the end of it all, it's entirely up to you as the DM what occurs. It's your world to show off, if the players dying gives more richness to the story then by all means throw the hammer down on them when they screw up. Just make their deaths mean something, give them some narrative purpose in the grand scheme of things. Even if they only live on in a magical item or a memory of a loved one.

[@robofthewest]

Rewatching this in March 2018. I love this episode. In it we are reminded why so many of us love this game. The depth of story telling and the wide ranging real emotions it can evoke. Well done, Matt.

[@duckdudette]

In terms of telling players what the characters remember, I generally give them an intelligence or history check. This at least lets them know that there are options even if they roll badly and don't know what they are. Your videos are great, they have made me really rethink my DMing!

[@nudefinitelynot5934]

The point about telling players what kind of DM you are is SO IMPORTANT. I have played in four games, each with a different DM, each with a different focus. I have played a heavy story-driven character in a highly combat-oriented/goofy campaign and played a more combat oriented character in a game where the DM expected us to drive the story. Both experiences caused intense frustration despite the fun, and knowing the DM's preference and mentality going in would have helped me make a character to compliment that so we all could have more fun. Thanks for your humility and the thought provoking video, not everyone is willing to put their own mistakes front and center as a learning opportunity.

[@GenCyfur]

I know I'm a bit late in responding to the video, and you might've addressed this in another one... I had to stop watching the video and comment at 22:22 to write this. I would've done what the wizard did in the cell, and I would've been happy of that ending. There is nothing more noble than to sacrifice one's life for another. In fact, I think this is the best way for a character to go. Of course, that comes from someone who already knows what they're gonna play next if their character dies, even if the game has yet to start... But I would've been pissed that the druid went back. And if the DM had tried to save my character despite it being quite obvious that it is a sacrifice and that I am aware of it, I would've been pissed at the DM. Character death, if it serves a narrative purpose, and if it is executed well, can be one of the most awesome thing in a story. Just wanted to put that out there.

[@Madhattersinjeans]

I'm guessing the wizard wasn't expecting to die right there and was thrown when he did. Given the DM said earlier "these guys don't want to kill you, just kill you at the next day at dawn" suggests the wizard had some free reign to try another breakout attempt later on. I think up and executing him on the spot was out of left field for him in that moment.

[@paulie-g]

I know this is thread necromancy, but I agree with you so much I had to post. Maybe it's a cultural bias - I'm from a culture that values noble suffering and considers making the ultimate sacrifice ultimately honourable - but I would have absolutely loved the character's arc as described. Yes, I would be upset at his death and I would mourn him, but I would never forget this RP experience in the way one forgets much longer lived chars that just murder-hoboed through to the end game.

[@PossMcLeod]

Awwww what an awesome GM! I love how you realise it's always a learning experience not just for the players but you too! I've had a few DM's that didn't get that (including myself) and we all suffered as a result.

[@GavinRalston13]

Just got around to this series so the comment is late, but up to about 10 minutes in where the party hands over evidence that then gets used against them? That's so Count of Monte Cristo. :)

[@mcolville]

+Gavin Ralston I think the DM of any group often ends up being whichever one is most well read.

[@GavinRalston13]

It was cool how that worked out. Credulous party hands over damning evidence, then betrayed by the authorities and framed. I think I'd dig this way of winding up without gear and spells than I would be with the usual "So you're shipwrecked on an island..." introduction that most published adventures take. Speaking of which, thanks for finally reminding me to open up and read my Night Below box. I've been putting it off for a few decades.

[@Ryan_Winter]

These videos make a lot of DM conundrums very palpable. The most useful advice for DM'ing I've come across on youtube.

[@johnr7279]

Awesome video. You're a very effective storyteller! Keep up the great work!

[@dr.prof.professionalphd4996]

Your relationship with your boss is awesome! The fact that you guys play roleplay together is awesome!!

[@michaelramon2411]

I feel like there were two GM mistakes here (besides the whole "everyone understanding each other's expectations" thing). One was making Evil Paladin Lady simply kill the defenseless Wizard, instead of beating him up or something. Yes, it can make sense for the humiliated evil guard to respond to that situation with lethal force, but there are other alternatives that make sense, like her trying to force him to explain the "conjurer's trick" he just used to let the Druid out, or her concluding that disobeying orders like that would invite serious punishment from the regent. As a GM, you do have control over NPCs decision-making processes, and you should use that to make NPCs take the actions that move the story forward. PC deaths happen, but PCs deaths outside of combat are something to be extremely wary of. Two, even if you decided the guard was going to try and kill the Wizard, that would have been an excellent time to shout "MEANWHILE", flash over to the other PCs and encourage the dwarf's player to finally share his intel. See what the PCs decide to do. You've left how long the Wizard and Druid were knocked out uncertain, so you can retroactively fit it into whatever time slot makes the most sense with the rest of the party's plan. Right before you shout meanwhile, have the guard declare she's going to kill the Wizard (or something similar, like that she's going to mutilate him or whatever). If the rest of the party arrives to save the Wizard, great! If that doesn't fit with how their rescue scheme worked, another guard could arrive to check on the prisoners because an alarm has been set off (by the party's rescue attempt), and this interrupts Paladin Lady. I personally feel that when things go bad, a GM should give the players the opportunity to wriggle their way out of it. It's not ignoring the consequences of their actions, but rather making those consequences be additional problems that have to be solved. Because that, to me, is the core gameplay of D&D - solving problems.

[@craigyeah1052]

Exactly. Honestly to me it made less sense, logically, to kill him. Emotionally it does make sense though, and realizing you shouldn't while trying to be in character in the moment can be hard.

[@jeremywhittenstaff1601]

Think it was perfect. Phil had already called him out multiple times for taking it easy. There was a cost to the heroic action. I think going forward the players will never forget to not take their actions frivolously.

[@jeffp2x443]

Your videos get better and better. Wish I would have discovered them earlier, but I'm glad I did now. You are an awesome story tell, really got me hooked. Looking forward to reading your books.

[@OM33GAPRODUCTIONS]

Mat I don't see where you went wrong, you did everything I would of expected a DM to do

[@adamsloan9616]

That ... sounded ... EPIC! It made for such a great story! I would be totally cool with sacrificing a character for the story like that though I can completely understanding the player getting upset and his point of view too.

[@dc8836]

I don't get it. Why would the players feel railroaded? You put up plenty of signs about them about to do a Very Dumb Thing, they literally did what their NPC buddy EXPLICITLY told them NOT to do, and they're complaining about being railroaded? Maybe I'm misunderstanding the idea of them being thrown in jail - they reached that point through their own inattentiveness to the signs being pretty liberally spread around them, and the Regent and his goons throwing them in jail is the logical next step in that chain of events. They refused to be jailed and chose to fight instead, and you allowed it because... hey, why not? Why would they say that's being railroaded? Also, what's with people being against PC deaths? While I understand the "Killer DM" is a bad thing, I also think that a DM that bends the rules to keep player characters alive is equally as bad. I feel like players and monsters/NPCs should obey the same rules, the same dice. If someone's character dies... well, bad things happen when you're trying to save the world (or just get rich...), but surely you could find someone in the next town or local watering hole willing to fill their shoes, right? Players knowing and understanding that their dudes will die just as easily as those kobolds seems to me like it would encourage careful play and actually thinking things through... and paying attention.

[@Nerdarchy]

Yeah, I couldn't help but think as Matt described the scenario, "you telegraphed the stakes and their implications on multiple occasions", letting the players make a poor decision is still allowing player agency. Players actions (or inactions) should have consequences.

[@manatillia]

Nerdarchy Well, fancy meeting you here...

[@abelsampaio389]

Thing is, as Matt explained, it's overwhelmingly hard to put a player in a fight scenario and expect them to surrender, no matter how obviously outnumbered the players are, how many signs you give, and that's a shame.

[@Eon2641]

I know this is an old thread, but it's actually fairly understandable why people would feel this way. As was repeated several times in this video, these guys are mostly new players. They probably never even considered retreating or surrendering as an option, not necessarily out of stubbornness but because this is a game, and we typically approach games with the mindset that they're meant to be beaten. The player characters are the heroes and the heroes always get the girl... or get away from the girl as the case may be here. If you were playing an analogous videogame, for instance, you'd never be able to get into that prison in the first place unless there were an easy and near-immediate way out that was clearly communicated to you. When they get more acclimated they'll probably remember to think more real-world-y and less video-game-y and they'll get themselves into less no-win situations as a result.

[@danieldib4268]

video games do that to you all the time, and no one likes it either.

[@rpgdream9700]

u probs wont read this but DUDE, my heart goes out to u, im so glad ur relationship with ur friends was strong enough so as to have that talk and save the campaign. It's really clear that u didn't want any of that to happen but u also just felt boxed in, trying to be true to the villains motives and not wanting to unsatisfactorily dues-ex machina ur players to safety, and its sobering that even a DM of ur experience can find themselves in that situation (makes me a lil nervouse to DM though hahaha but ill get over it)

[@jordanmaschio4776]

I love campaigns with political themes and intrigue but setting up social situations for players to interact take the most time to prep and plan. Seeing as you seem to have this down to a science I would love to hear your take on planning complicated social encounters, where players can meaningfully interact and make important choices in engaging with NPCs. NPCs in dungeons / in weird locales vs NPCs in towns or at social gatherings such as summits and parties.

[@unus_child131]

Im a new dm and my uncle (who has been playing for a long time) recommend I watch your videos and I feel so much more convenient now! Thank you for these!

[@timbawden2577]

Hey Matt, I do a lot of DMing for my friends, have for years. It would be really cool if you made a video on riddles and puzzles in DnD. They are one of the best but often overlooked parts of DnD, as making your own can be really hard.

[@gregetto2009]

Thanks for your honesty and vulnerability in offering this to the community. Sharing the sequence of events leading to the wizard's demise, the human fallout, and the reconciliation after is invaluable.

[@marchofthefrogs]

I dunno. I don't see that as a failure on your part. Although, I guess it depends on what your players want. But for me, as a player, your account of the game was just so intriguing to listen to. You and your players made a fantastic story and I loved hearing it even though the wizard lost his life. I would love to play in a scenario like that.

[@marek_kanarek]

I watched this video so much that I almost memorized it. But the title "Catastrophic Failure" is a title of legends, it has so much history to it, that I always find myself coming back to it

[@stormcloudsabound]

"They play a human in real life" Are you implying there are aliens pretending to be people irl that also play d&d? **illuminato confirm**

[@irosencrantz882]

Arizona Jonson... all life is God playing D&D. (He's a horrible DM.)

[@paulcoy9060]

According to "The X-Files", there are aliens that pretend to be people so they can play baseball. Sounds like aliens don't have a good home life, and need to visit us for fun.

[@Soitisisit]

@@irosencrantz882 Funny, most of the problems come from the players being wangrods to each other. :)

[@arigadatred5395]

I know this is from 4 years ago, but I love *"Illuminato confirm",* it made me happy

[@The-Strong-One]

@@arigadatred5395 illuminato

[@TheChapin03]

I just want to thank you, your videos have helped me run my game. I'm still building a game for my wife, mom, dad, and two brothers... I have realized that "if the players are having fun, then I am having fun". I'm still new to being the DM, but your videos have helped me. So thank you, please keep up the videos.

[@RighBread]

THIS IS AN AMAZING STORY. But...no, I'm sorry but it IS the players' fault. You said it yourself: they did it to be stubborn. As a player, I argue that it is imperative for you to have trust in your DM, and that surrendering will not result in the campaign instantly ending. It is their fault for being idiots and trying to fight their way out of an impossible situation, and I've absolutely experienced the same thing as a DM, with someone dying because of it. Particularly, the "Tactician" of the group has never once agreed to relinquish her weapons upon request, even if the decisions the party has made up until that point has narrowed her window of choice so much that it's either "relinquish your weapons before you can enter the keep to negotiate with the Orc Warlord, or you will be summarily executed." There's certainly something to be said about allowing your players freedom and avoiding railroading at all costs, but you also need to maintain some sort of control. The world your players are in does not bow to them anymore than the world we live in bows to us. They need to learn that and respect that, and if comes at the cost of a dead PC and some angry players, so be it.

[@RighBread]

Also, for the record, as a player I am usually the first one to bring up the idea of surrender if things are going south - at least if it seems like that's a viable option. I get what you're saying about "it never works," and that even you as a player have a hard time allowing your agency to be taken away, but I think it comes down to whether you can relinquish control for a few minutes. It's doable. Really not that bad. Fun sometimes even.

[@PhilC_PhD]

I am going back through these videos as I still have a lot to learn as a DM and I have to thank you Matt for putting up these videos. I am learning a lot. Have been a D&D fanatic since I was 8 (now 27) but never really got to play till I was 23. I found out that I enjoy DMing more than playing and your videos are helping me become a better adventure builder.

[@jetex1911]

I'd love to see you make the "make a villain" video first.

[@TheSoykeith]

Nearly fives years late on this video so I am sure no one will see this but who knows. I just wanted to say how important it was that you let Phil have his space to be upset, and to vent. The importance of giving people the moment to breath is huge for me. I say this because often times if you aren’t given the moment to collect yourself you are only left with those immediate thoughts and those calcify into permanence. That’s how dnd games die so quickly players get it into their heads that it is X reason or Y reason, they make judgements without communicating their needs and feelings. Pausing the game and talking was the real winner here, I give no fault to anyone. A DM can explain endlessly how/if/when something isn’t a good idea or sure thing. Hell, DM’s can say explicitly I don’t hold back on and sometimes you may not be able to defeat the evil right now or win in an encounter. Allowing the course of things to track as they go and playing the characters as they are is only way to know, and the only way to tell an honest story. Not a fun or joyous one necessarily, but honest

[@luiken3]

Dat doobly do doe! (Also, alignment would be a cool topic. And how help your players avoid Lawful stupid & all the other stereotypical 'stupid' archetypes)

[@JeremyCurry]

+Austin Brownewell I second the notion of an alignment video being helpful.

[@dragonzord6615]

+Austin Brownewell I third it! :D

[@skotosman]

Lawful good is pretty stupid... but not in the sense that you call it stupid. If you have a thief or a warlock or anything like that, a lawful good paladin can't let what they do as a normal day to day operation slide. It makes it very hard to work together with them.

[@rmsgrey]

You can disagree with someone's choices without condemning them - a Paladin can seek to reform his associates by example while letting them continue to rob and pillage (though he may say something about suitable targets for such depredations)

[@GamerNxUSN]

+rmsgrey except he reports illegal activity due to loyalty to the State.

[@drugstored]

I wanted to learn about DnD from scratch, cause I wanted to evolve my storytelling skills - it seemed like a perfect mean to practice. Explaining always worked to me better, when listening and through one-to-one discussions, rather that reading all those instruction books. After viewing and liking your first video, I couldn't believe that I found myself staring at your 14th episode in a row and still wanting to know more about this game. You are so dependable and inspire trust in what you say and about the facts you analyze. I am so excited to learn how to be a really good DM and where your videos will get me. You must be an amazing DM, not only judging by the stories, experiences and events you narrate in your videos, but because all your videos even though you're just standing there talking, no effects added, are never boring and really take me to so many different worlds - what this game is all about. It's like I'm also playing, even though there's no mock-game included. For what it's worth, thank you for all this time you devote/-ed in those really helpful videos. Keep up the good work!

[@davidpeacock8276]

False: My friends have NEVER been impressed that I can juggle lol

[@GreenPaladin7]

OMFG, at 10:24 I started LAUGHING so hard. When you brought up how the dwarf character wasn't with them. Legit cracked me up. It's situations like these which is why I love D&D

[@michaellinke6448]

NEVER let the knights of the black rose move you to a second location!!!

[@reflectionist]

I've been watching this series all day, man. Just discovered it today. I like how you present everything. Very concise and eloquent. I don't really know anyone around here that would play D&D, and I've literally only played it twice, but watching these really makes me want to play it sometime.

[@VivaLaDnDLogs]

"Players will die." There's a guy in my group who has died more in the two years we've been playing than any kind of enemy we've faced. He half-jokingly, half-seriously rerolls a new character every 1-2 months. Some characters have lasted 1 session before he drops them and rolls a new one. It infuriates me, because every time he introduces a new character, he expects them to just become accepted by the group spontaneously. What kind of character, what kind of person commits to a new ally every time an old one dies? If you keep losing members of your group to death, suicide, murder, or randomly walking away and never returning, isn't it understandable to be a little cautious before accepting someone new into the fold? Someone new wants to join your group after your old member died suddenly and tragically, wouldn't the hope be that whoever fills the spot will stick around? I always have my characters start off suspicious or untrusting of the new face until they prove themselves. Which rarely happens. Thus, more infuriation.

[@jackofblades4374]

"What kind of character, what kind of person commits to a new ally every time an old one dies?" Answer: The Doctor's travelling companions

[@elizabethlockhart2103]

I know this is 11 months later but I’m resurrecting this comment both because I think it may help you and because it may help someone else who reads your comment and relates to it. I think there is a mismatch between what you want from the game and what the other player wants from the game. You want to experience the process of building trust, of playing your character and interacting with other characters and forging a bond together. The other player doesn’t seem to want that. They want to already have the trust of the other characters so they can show off and do cool stunts and try new things. That’s why this guy is always rolling new characters, and why he always expects to be integrated into the party immediately with no problems - because he’s not interested as much in the “forging a bond” part of the game, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Everyone plays the game for different reasons. I’d be surprised if you’re still playing with this guy, and if you are, even more surprised if you haven’t fixed this problem yet, but for anyone else who’s reading and wants to figure out what to do, the solution is this: talk to the other player. Tell them how you’re feeling, that you’re frustrated that they keep expecting that you’ll just accept them when their previous character just died or abandoned them or whatever. LISTEN to their point of view, and work out a compromise. Maybe they didn’t think of it that way before, or maybe you just have to deal with (in your mind) an unrealistic situation so that everyone can keep having fun. Maybe this isn’t the right group for you or for them, and that’s fine. But don’t blame other players for having fun in a way that’s different from yours, especially if they’re ruining your fun unintentionally. If they are doing something to intentionally spite you, or if you talk to them and they say they’re going to change their behavior and they don’t make any effort to change, those are completely different situations. But it sounds like these two players are just approaching the game from different angles, and there’s really nothing wrong with that.

[@VivaLaDnDLogs]

@@elizabethlockhart2103 in the end, he left us for Pathfinder. After committing to the Dungeon of the Mad Mage, then quitting 4 sessions in. You're definitely right, we're very different players. In the end, we agreed to disagree and go our own ways.

[@sevenbrokenbricks]

I've lost count of how often I've recommended this video just for the opening

[@mbalazs3544]

14:32 Allow to react to this :D My warrior side to quot breve heart ~ FREEEEDOM Dark mage side ~ Never break,never bow, never beg, not a doubt. Wizard side ~ ~ If there is a solution I find it if there no I create it. Good players and good people should never surrender. Its tragic.

[@filipepassos-coelho6661]

to be fair, I believe you guys are in a very good place. after all the issues were worked out, having a character have an epic send-off, a sacrifice for the good of the party, is amazing.

[@Fantafaust]

I mean really, they forced themselves into this situation. It's like going through the entire process of getting a flight somewhere and then complaining about the destination you chose.

[@MrSilvUr]

The eye-roll at 12:34. :-D Normally I only listen to videos like these, but that eye-roll made the whole rewatch worth it.

[@michaelswanson1266]

YAY PHIL!! He's my Hero! Seriously though, even at low levels I get very attached to my characters and would probably not sacrifice one. Awesome job salvaging your campaign though. P.S. By the way, the only thing we haven't covered so far is Engaging your Players. So far, you have done everything that you said you would next week, albeit not exactly the following week.

[@philliprobb]

+Michael Swanson I was very attached to Skoros and truth be told I suspected they might not kill him based on the fact that they have been capturing wizards and taking them 'somewhere.' I started the night with the goal of doing whatever I could to get the Sheild of Anderim out of the keep before the baron knew he had it, with a secondary goal of doing whatever I could to get the party out...being a spellcaster I figured they would haul Skoros off to wherever they were holding the captured spellcasters. What I didn't consider was Matt's NPC would allow rage and pride to overcome the value of captive spellcasters. Looking back I'm actually pretty satisfied with the narrative. Skoros died completely 'in character' in that he helped get the Shield of Anderim out of the reach of the Baron and all of his friends escaped. I imagine Skoros blood stained grin as he died knowing he had a hand in foiling the bad guys.

[@michaelswanson1266]

+Phil Robb I agree intirely. Just saying that I don't know if I could have done it. As for narratives, I would love to see his brother come for vengeance.

[@philliprobb]

+Michael Swanson The new character (warlock) isn't related to Skoros. One of the things I took into consideration for the second guy is how he would fit in the party. The party had a decidedly mercenary quality to it. Skoros, was Lawful Good, and was constantly having to play the moral compass for the party. The new character, Graves, is a much darker character, and fits with the rest of the characters better.

[@michaelswanson1266]

+Phil Robb Awesome. Yeah role playing the only lawful character in a party would be tough. But I just meant from a narative stand point. something that a new player or Matt could NPC along the way

[@Roma-kp4qg]

This was definitely a chaotic session, but it really speaks to your skill as a GM that when the bad stuff happened you could all talk it out and the group grew closer. I would have froze up if one of my players was so pissed he left D: (I'm not so good with conflict management)

[@hazezero689]

Mat, you didn't have a Session-0? Maybe this leads into a next video about the importance and reasons for a Session-0?

[@jakeholmes9296]

Glad to hear it worked out with the group. I'm a pretty new DM and haven't yet had a character die. It's something I'm both worried and excited about. I've been devouring these videos over the lots couple of days. They are really GREAT!!! thanks from Australia!

[@camnewton04]

I think you should do a video like bi weekly about one of your campaigns. Talk about the setting from your side like the hidden the areas and stuff. And what you think the party is going to do.

[@taigarus2835]

Yesterday I was running for my friends Storm King's Thunder and I made so many bad decisions I regretted as soon they were made that I was thinking about abandoning the campaign after it. But this video helped as you have no idea, it helped me to see the light again in being a GM, thank you very much for it!!

[@SlayerEndX13]

There's no such thing as a "no win" scenario. If you wouldn't accept such a thing as a player, why would your players accept such a thing just because you made it? Assuming you know what the players will do is the first mistake. Assuming they won't find a way around what you've done is the second. Assuming both another time? That's just folly.

[@binarycontrol]

Thank you for this episode. I just had a fail as well. it was a time loop caused by an artifact and it ended up with our heroes sitting on the beach, they hadn't tried anything other than 1.) fighting their way out 2.) running away. Your episode helped me get over it and figure out what is going to happen next. Thanks man.

[@brabra2725]

Executing the wizard was a mistake: she had reasons to do it, but it was an inconvenient thing to do for her, because the wizard was to be hang in the morning. All the rest is fine, in fact it was a fantastic adventure: you give plenty of clues to your players to let them suspect something phoney was going on, and they walked into the trap nevertheless.

[@ericdimarzio5756]

This is super useful. Thank you! I decided to get into DnD when the quarantine started and convinced my friends around the country to play with me online. I've ran Lost Mines with them and am about to set out on my first homebrew. Thank you for these videos!