Catholic vs. Protestant Dialogue (Gavin Ortlund + David Gordon)

[@ContraMundumDG]

Thanks to Dr. Ortlund for having this discussion with me and for his kindness and forthrightness. Appreciated the dialogue very much.

[@TruthUnites]

likewise! God bless you David.

[@fellow_servant_jamesk8303]

Gentleman. This was an excellent conversation. Well done men.

[@gregmahler9506]

@David - it surprised me at your surprise that the Marian dogmas would be such an issue for most Protestants. You grew up saying the “Hail Mary’s” and so perhaps it’s just a part of you. But for many of us who were not raised like that, the entire concept seems blasphemous and unnecessary. Why would anyone waste time speaking to Mary (even if she is in heaven) when we can speak directly to our Heavenly Father? “But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.” ‭‭James‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬ “Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time, casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.” ‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5‬:‭6‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬ “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭11‬:‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬ Why ask anyone else besides our God? And so in some since the reason we have an issue with the Mary stuff is because in our view she has become a sort of substitutionary (and far inferior) replacement for asking God directly for the Catholics as we don’t want to follow that error! Do you think that by growing up in the Marian system you may be systematically blinded by it and grown calloused? Imagine for a second if God himself thought the practice was an abomination. Would you give it up right away?

[@Cyberbizbuddy]

Being in the faith at a young age and brought up in the Baptist Church, I had to attend catechism classes in order to get married to my wife in the Catholic Church. I also had to take a vow, in which I followed, to raise our children in the Catholic faith/beliefs. We would alternate between the two churches every week. It was very challenging, and after 13 years, we went through an amicable divorce. So, this conversation was very interesting to hear both sides in brevity. As for my family, everyone is saved by the blood of our Savior who died on the cross for our sins, and we have all been baptized. My former wife is married to her third husband, and regardless of the Catholic Church's position on divorce, she still attends and follows the rituals she has been brought up on, and we are still good friends living on opposite sides of the country and beliefs. 😊

[@davidgordon3081]

@@gregmahler9506 Because the essential role of the Queen Mother, the Gebirah, the mother of the Davidic King (1 Kings 2:20) in the Old Testament was to petition the King on behalf of the people, for what the King wouldn't grant based on the merit of people themselves, He might grant out of love for His mother. Christ is the Davidic King who reigns forever. His mother is the Queen of the Church, who petitions Him constantly on our behalf. She is de facto mediatrix of grace, because Christ is the font of all grace, and it was through her fiat that the Incarnation took place.

[@MBiggens]

Hey Gavin. Just wanted to thank you for your videos. I'm recently coming out of Mormonism (born & raised), and have been trying to figure out exactly where I fit in greater Christianity as I shed my old worldview and accept new truths. One thing I've realized as I've done so is that my previous Mormon worldview conditioned me to view things like Catholicism and Protestantism in specific ways. Your channel has been very helpful in breaking down many years of misconceptions with Protestantism as I try to navigate my way through these changes in my life. Keep up the good work.

[@SahihChristian]

Wow! God bless you! Keep searching for truth. Think for yourself and ask the Holy spirit to guide you. He speaks!

[@TruthUnites]

So glad its been helpful! May the Lord guide you, direct you, and bless you.

[@symphonyofdissent]

As a fellow ex-Mormon now Evangelical, I agree. I love Gavin's videos 😊

[@alz1997]

I pray to God that you are able to come to a place of peace in knowing him at the end of this journey! It had to have been extremely hard just to begin.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I don't know a lot about the Mormon branch, just that people are very conditioned to be afraid to leave. May God bless you and guide you and give you peace rather than fear and uncertainty.

[@NateMP]

What an amazing job at representing protestantism. Something all protestants can actually be proud to call their representative thanks Gavin

[@Eternally_Catholic]

I assume you're reading a Bible that has 66 books. The Bible actually has 73 books and has always had 73 books since its very conception in the Council of Rome in 382 AD. It wasn't until the 1500s that Protestants removed 7 books. I mean, 66 is also a number that hints incompleteness (Remember the number of the beast). Anyway, the basic fact is that God founded the Catholic Church and would never let her fall into doctrinal error. (Human error can easily be found because we are all sinners.) But if you don't believe Holy Mother Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, then I guess Luther was right in that the problem is everyone can become their own pope. To quote Luther: "There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism; another denies the Sacrament; a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day. Some teach that Christ is not God; some say this, some say that." God bless.

[@countryboyred]

@@Eternally_Catholicthe Catholic Church has fallen into error on several matters of faith and doctrine so that argument doesn’t really hold water. Papal infallibility, treasury of merit, Marian dogmas, purgatory, etc are all accretions that didn’t exist in the first 1000 years of the church.

[@jeremybamgbade]

@@Eternally_Catholic This is demonstrably false. Jerome and Rufinus of the Latin west, and Athanasious, Cyril of Jerusalem, and Gregory Nanzianzus of the east denied the inclusion of the apocrypha as canonical. Therefore, the idea that Roman Catholic stance on the Apocrypha represents the "consensum Patrum" is shown to be absolutely false and even asinine.

[@EJ-gx9hl]

As a catholic, I’ve been praying that Catholics, orthodox, and Protestants can have more meaningful dialogue and conversations and realize the things we have in common and fight alongside each instead of against each other so much.

[@edalbanese6310]

Yes but Catholics Protestants are not saved. Furthermore “you” call my faith a sect. Hardly seen a loving Catholic. Sad to say

[@EJ-gx9hl]

@@edalbanese6310 you’re saying catholic Protestants aren’t saved? What’s a catholic Protestant?

[@EJ-gx9hl]

I don’t call your faith a sect. I’m a catholic that listens to Protestant sermons and even attends a Protestant Bible study mens group

[@countryboyred]

@@EJ-gx9hlWe are having more fruitful discussions. Catholics, prots, and Orthodox have way more in common then we do differently. It will take something major like a massive influx of Islamic people to make us band together though. We have very different theology and most of the time we talk past each other instead of really trying to understand each other.

[@ryanlafferty5948]

I don't want them to emphasize their similarities, I want them to emphasize their differences. I'm trying join one and trying not to accidentally pick the wrong one.

[@JoeThePresbapterian]

The chief end of men is to glorify God and to enjoy Him forever ❤

[@rashidbinzaiyed7149]

Is this pastor a cat holic??

[@zachsmith8916]

@@rashidbinzaiyed7149I don’t know if he likes cats but I think the other guy is Catholic.

[@JoyCrossbridge]

True, but they each have to have a right and accurate understanding of what glorifies God. If they think it is their works that glorifies Him (and saves them), that’s a problem. That’s the belief catholics, muslims and mormons operate from.

[@chrisazure1624]

@@rashidbinzaiyed7149 Baptist.

[@ContraMundumDG]

@@JoyCrossbridge Wrong. Catholics would call that the heresy of Pelagianism.

[@SethGullion]

I pray that Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox will listen to each other and pursue truth. 🙏

[@ProtestantKing7]

And what truth is that? If you’re saying that all three branches are incorrect, then what is correct ?

[@SethGullion]

@@ProtestantKing7 I'm not saying all three branches are incorrect rather we need to pursue what is Biblically true. For example, justification by faith alone, let's dialogue and see what Protestants are saying is true. It is true cause of holy scripture, especially Romans and Galatians. 🙏

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@ProtestantKing7 What many of us would say is in keeping w/ the bible and 1 Cor. 12 about the body of Christ. We all need each other, and can't say that one part of the body isn't needed. We all have error.

[@ProtestantKing7]

@@SethGullion I agree. Just was confused about what you meant 👍🏻

[@NP-vk8de]

The real problem with that we each have a part of authentic Christianity and one individual denomination has something that others are lacking. It’s like going out to a restaurant for a meal and having to go one restaurant for the appetizer than going to another eating establishment for the main course, then moving on again for the dessert. And so on. In spite of what Roman Catholics claim about the “fullness of truth” existing in the Roman Church, it by far does not represent 2,000 years of the Christian church. This completeness exists partially in many Protestants denominations.

[@user-mt9hv8sf9f]

Gavin, you’re one of the few reasons I am still a Protestant. You’re doing amazing work. God bless.

[@Eternally_Catholic]

I assume you're reading a Bible that has 66 books. The Bible actually has 73 books and has always had 73 books since its very conception in the Council of Rome in 382 AD. It wasn't until the 1500s that Protestants removed 7 books. I mean, 66 is also a number that hints incompleteness (Remember the number of the beast). Anyway, the basic fact is that God founded the Catholic Church and would never let her fall into doctrinal error. (Human error can easily be found because we are all sinners.) But if you don't believe Holy Mother Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, then I guess Luther was right in that the problem is everyone can become their own pope. To quote Luther: "There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism; another denies the Sacrament; a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day. Some teach that Christ is not God; some say this, some say that." God bless.

[@megrose711]

one of the few reasons? Hopefully you'll find many reasons to be what you are, or else look to where you could find that!

[@thethinplace]

This is what I have gotten from reading Thomas Cranmer. The Glory of God is to love the unworthy. And what a beautiful message.

[@wojo9732]

Wonderful, love one another as Christ loved us. 😍

[@sharonlazorko3893]

Is this quote "The glory of God is to love the unworthy" from Thomas Cranmer?

[@thethinplace]

@@sharonlazorko3893 I'm not entirely sure that he said it in those exact words but it's the golden thread so-to-speak which extends through his theology.

[@jamestrotter3162]

One day, when all who belong to Christ stand before Him, perhaps we will be able to look at each other and say, "So that's what He meant!"

[@chrisazure1624]

It was Church Militant that led me to TU. I heard Michael Voris pray to Mary and called her "Queen of the Universe". I found such a title troubling and started learning more about Catholicism. My concern has only heightened the more I understand Catholic Dogma and the anathemas that are used to protect papal infallibility.

[@SahihChristian]

The Roman catholic claims all the church fathers without even following them

[@Seethi_C]

The mother of king was considered the Queen Mother in the Old Testament, so it’s really not that strange!

[@chrisazure1624]

@@Seethi_CWhere? What is your clear passage that suggest Mary is a queen?

[@SahihChristian]

@@Seethi_C And the King disobeyed her. And because she tried to cajole the king, the man got beheaded. Don't twist the scriptures.

[@Seethi_C]

@@SahihChristian Of course, but the New is always the perfection of the Old type, just like how Jesus, the Bread of Life, is a fulfillment of the Manna, which was an imperfect type.

[@aleksey6151]

One of the best Catholic Protestant debates I’ve heard. Thank you Gavin for being so clear and careful with how you answer each question and thank you for your irenic spirit

[@deejtherapper]

Loved this discussion. Gavin, you got me thinking on that last part where you said that our only true enemy is Satan and his demons. Not Catholics, not Orthodox members, not non Christians but Satan.

[@tategarrett3042]

Gavin, you opened this discussion with a back and forth talking about ways that Catholics and Protestants can collaborate closely, and one of the key points you landed on was simply having peaceful and honest disagreements without assuming ill motive. Listening to this dialogue is a powerful testimony to the power of Christ just from its tone alone because both of you are doing a fantastic job of hearing each other out and discussing your positions without acrimony or snide insults and the like. Both to Christians and non-christians I think it is a powerful example of way in which to disagree without disdaining one another.

[@mitromney]

Thank you for this Gavin! You are impacting the entire Kimgdom more than you know. A major Christian leader from Western Europe speaking here. Please, keep building those bridges. Do not give up. The body of Christ thirsts for them for ages.

[@ProfYaffle]

Amen. Thanks for this (because I love to see Gavin being encouraged)

[@greyknight627]

I found this conversation to be a breath of fresh air Gavin. In the past, I have seen others and other Catholic Apologists talk with you about the differences (mostly) and similarities between Protestantism and Catholicism and I've always walked away with the notion that nobody on the Catholic side of the aisle is particularly interested in fellowship in the holy catholic, apostolic faith. For example, your debate, and follow up conversation with Trent Horn really came off as though Trent didn't want to grant Protestantism any ground, was only looking to show "Catholicism correct, while Protestantism is wrong." Here, I see a genuine interest in healthy discussion and fellowship. As a Protestant, I struggle often with Catholic brothers who enter into the conversation completely unwilling to hear out arguments, have a good faith conversation, or not willing to see/steelman those who disagree with their doctrines, dogmas, and views. As a result, it makes it a struggle to not look at many Catholics with a less than hospitable light. As much as I disagree with many traditions of Catholicism (raised as one myself until my 20s, when I became convinced by Protestantism), I have to force myself to remember there are fundamentals in the apostolic faith that we agree on, and to remind myself that crucial items such as the Divinity of Christ, the truth of the Trinity, and where grace and salvation come from are likely things we share. Thank you for this strong, productive conversation that shows Catholics and Protestants are of the Body of Christ together and it does not always need to be so hostile/argumentative.

[@NP-vk8de]

greyknight627: Good post and I like your sensible line of reasoning. May I suggest you listen to the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen a Roman Catholic teacher author and inspirational speaker. He spoke the truth with love while remaining loyal to his Catholic roots. He really preached the gospel and he knew Jesus as saviour and Lord. The ironic part is he just doesn’t get the respect and honour he deserves even from his Catholic peers. But, what I liked about him is his view on the four (4) basic pillars/anchors of Christianity. He narrowed it down to the four foundational truths. Everything else is cosmetic or ornamental. All Christian’s can accept that view. If I can locate these basics, I’ll post them.

[@countryboyred]

Catholics typically won’t come out and boldly say it but the reason for this is they don’t look at Protestants as even Christian. Papists believe they are the only Christians and everyone else is a heretic and going to hell. Read Unum Sanctum.

[@davidprush]

Dr. Ortlund's gentle but firm assertion of the Protestant positions is pleasing.

[@craigbennett8053]

Gavin, you are so kind in your discussion. I wish to be as gracious as you in my faith discussions.

[@scp025]

Well done, Gavin - and just want to commend you for the gentle and gracious yet clear correction at 57:54. It is vital that Catholics (and all who call themselves Christian) understand that it is not baptism that saves, but trust in Jesus.

[@joeoleary9010]

A related point that I wish Gavin would bring up is that for the Catholic, *nothing* saves. Not baptism, not faith, not the sacraments. The Catholic is never assured of salvation. Everything the Catholic church teaches about "what is necessary" for salvation is qualified by the admonition that a "mortal" sin can totally upset one's soteriological applecart. And what precisely is a mortal sin? The Catholic church won't definitively say. Technically, being 5 minutes late to Mass is a mortal sin.

[@dman7668]

The Catholic Church does outline what consists of a mortal sin, so I don't know what you are referring to here as a practicing Catholic.

[@dman7668]

​@joeoleary9010 also, Gavin would not bring up point that "nothing saves" in Catholicism because he unlike you, would not want to misrepresent Catholic belief on this subject.

[@dman7668]

Well, that's just it, the Catholic Church isn't alone in the belief that baptism saves you. The first hero of the reformation Martin Luther also taught this. Some Protestants also believe this idea that baptism saves us.

[@joeoleary9010]

@@dman7668 The Catholic church's stance on what *precisely* is a mortal sin is as vague as your accusation that I'm "misrepresenting" Catholic belief. As a Catholic, you should at least admit that your church differs from Protestant sects in that it does not say that anything a Catholic does or believes assures him of salvation.

[@Sonic2Chronicles]

God Bless you, as always, Gavin. Your willingness to talk with Catholics is so refreshing and is probably why so many of us Catholics subscribe to your channel and enjoy your videos.

[@dylan3456]

David seems like a nice guy, and sincere, but he looks and sounds very threatened by you. I don't think that's a mark on his character but a matter of his depth of knowledge on these topics. He knows a lot of facts about these things but doesn't seem to have sorted through all the pertinent questions regarding them.

[@wojo9732]

Yeah I sensed that as well. He has some cracks in his foundation now.

[@chrisazure1624]

Catholics in general tend to trust what they are taught by their church and don't stray far from it. If they really examined the rhetoric, they would find it lacking in substance. Some positions I think are wrong, but benign, but anything that can is vague (Rev. 12 apocalytic visions), should be handled with humility and not shored up with anathemas.

[@Matthzor]

This is exactly what I picked up on, at time you can see him shaking almost and visibly troubled.

[@bobbyrice2858]

This is most catholics. I even see this in Akins when Ortlund talks to him. He gets an angry flustered demeanor. Trent is actually the only one Ortlund discussed with that was equally matched. But,most Catholics are scripture deficient with hermeneutical, exegetical context.

[@josenestorgutierrez3795]

​@@bobbyrice2858 Being a former catholic now Baptist i completely agree with you.

[@helenagreenpine1496]

Gavin makes me feel like I'm watching history.

[@Eternally_Catholic]

I assume you're reading a Bible that has 66 books. The Bible actually has 73 books and has always had 73 books since its very conception in the Council of Rome in 382 AD. It wasn't until the 1500s that Protestants removed 7 books. I mean, 66 is also a number that hints incompleteness (Remember the number of the beast). Anyway, the basic fact is that God founded the Catholic Church and would never let her fall into doctrinal error. (Human error can easily be found because we are all sinners.) But if you don't believe Holy Mother Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, then I guess Luther was right in that the problem is everyone can become their own pope. To quote Luther: "There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism; another denies the Sacrament; a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day. Some teach that Christ is not God; some say this, some say that." God bless.

[@countryboyred]

@@Eternally_Catholicthe current Pope isn’t even Catholic. How’s that working out for you guys?

[@SahihChristian]

God bless you immensely. You've been of great help. God bless your ministry and family ❤🙏

[@javierperd2604]

Great job during this discussion, Gavin 👏 As always, you've put forth yet a phenomenal example of what irenic-yet-uncomprimising dialogue looks like. Keep up the awesome work!

[@g9803]

The more I watch these dialogues the more I understand why I’m Protestant or simply a follower of Christ and his word. Thank you both.

[@roses993]

Same!!

[@josenestorgutierrez3795]

​@@roses993 Same for me and i will add to that that leaving the catholic church is the best thing i have done.

[@Eyesofmars2040]

The way they worship Mary is the big problem for me. It’s too bad they defend it so doggedly. It’s such a stretch and was added later. It’s just become so entrenched in their tradition that they can’t let it go.

[@AlbertoKempis]

Why do protestants keep on saying Catholics worship Mary. Catholics don't worship Mary they venerate Mary. I don't know why even if Catholics explain this to protestants a gazillion times they never listen. They will insist that catholic worship Mary. I don't know, if this is intentional or part of Protestants traditions to hate the catholics to the point of twisting catholics' beliefs just to make their arguments against catholic so accurate. The strawman is real.

[@scottl2486]

Very true

[@billmartin3561]

We DO NOT WORSHIP MARY. Stop saying that. Mary is a creature.

[@Eyesofmars2040]

@@billmartin3561 you kind of do and then pretend you don’t.

[@dreistheman7797]

I think the more precise word is “venerate” because “worship” is for God. Catholics do not worship Mary as God. As to it being formalized later on, I just believe in the authority of the Church, the same Church that protected the deposit of faith from heresies since the beginning. As compared to the model of Protestantism where there is constant division, heresies coming alive again like Monothelitism, Transgenderism being thought out of Protestant churches, it’s just these fruits that we’re observing that fortifies my belief.

[@makeda6530]

This was such a beautiful talk, thanks for doing this! Love hearing from our Catholic siblings~.

[@heatheraddison8902]

Thank you Pastor! The more I watch you dialogue with those of different beliefs, the more I learn how to respectfully disagree yet hold fast to biblical truths in not only those within the church but outside of the church also.

[@FishingWithGuero]

It’s nice seeing two guys discuss levelheaded, informative, respectful counters, and overall respect for each other as humans and highly educated people. Being seeing a lot of hostile contentions lately, this was a good reminder of the love for one another we’re told to have. 🙌

[@CamGaylor]

I'm not a very good Christian but I do appreciate these videos

[@roses993]

Wow dr gavin! Thank you for affirming our protestant faith very nicely😊😊😊 you look so calm and unthreatened/untriggered and confident. Kudos, sir!!

[@thefluxlife]

Great video. It is great relief to hear an actual dialog instead of debate.

[@themoorefamilythemoorefami1542]

@37:45 mark...."what is the basis of authority in the Christian religion?"...David Gordon's answer is ONE of the reasons that I cannot agree with roman Catholicism...."the church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth"..... how does anyone think that our SCRIPTURE isn't the pillar of truth? THANK YOU Gavin for your patience and for your informative answers!

[@dman7668]

Well that's just it, the Scripture attests to the Church being the Pillar. That doesn't mean scripture isn't, but the fact it mentions the Church in this way really does seem to lend itself to proof what the Catholic Church is saying about Church infallibility is true.

[@theepitomeministry]

Great discussion! Excellent job articulating the Protestant concerns as always, Dr. Ortlund!

[@ora_et_labora1095]

Is it just me or did it look like the host wanted to lash out several times but kept it cool?😂 great conversation and representation Dr. Ortlund!

[@paulsmallwood1484]

Great job Dr. Ortlund. This helped me tremendously!

[@telleroftheone]

Wonderful dialogue! Felt like I was there. Always glad to see conversations like this. I think you perfectly modeled what unity can look like in the midst of our moment in time

[@wojo9732]

Catholics are to dogmatic on the point of Mary that you cannot be saved without affirmation of those dogmas, even to where they say you are anathema and Jesus can no longer save you by grace through faith. This is 100% the 1st reason people should think to be protestant.

[@thegearhouse5337]

I feel similarly with the Orthodox. The idea of iconography being so central to their salvation, as well as the over reliance on Mary for salvation.

[@kriegjaeger]

@@thegearhouse5337 It's astounding. God gave us the ability to come directly to him and MAN built more barriers.

[@wojo9732]

@@kriegjaeger Men are great at building religious activities, barriers, walls and adding traditions to everything in life.

[@willire8811]

Hedge laws

[@opensourceai8357]

​@@thegearhouse5337iconography is different. That one makes more sense.

[@bclark63]

Well done. The testimony and honor to Christ that comes from Christian brothers discussing tough issues and theological disagreements cannot be overstated. For me of course, the Protestant positions that you articulated and articulate, clearly win the day in the debate and dialog. But, the WAY in which the dialogs and debates are engaged is immensely important. Thanks for the great work!

[@clayw70]

Great job Dr. Ortlund! You did an excellent job presenting your arguments in a very respectful way. It's a good example for all Christians to follow. Especially, as you expressed that people on the outside looking in should find us behaving in a loving manner. I would ask you to sometime in the future to cover the teachings of Vatican II. The teachings of that council greatly trouble me. Specifically, concerning salvation for people who reject Jesus. That seems to contradict all previous Roman Catholic doctrines. I have read statements from Pope's, bishops, and priests who believe this and openly teach it.

[@dman7668]

Great watch, thanks for doing this as always.

[@Raikoushiro]

I cannot wait until there are more out spoken people like Gavin. I disagree with some of his theological points, but historical Protestants deserve not to be straw manned. I think it will help with discussion so much as we have more people like him.

[@dman7668]

Nobody deserves to be straw manned. Catholic or protestant or mormon or Muslim.

[@mikekayanderson408]

The ultimate North Star is looking back to the deposit of Christianity as it is in the NewTestament. Correct Gavin! K

[@dman7668]

The argument that the deposit of faith does include apostolic oral tradition is a strong one, the disagreements continue, let each make up their own mind.

[@mikekayanderson408]

Yes before the New Testament was put together there would have been oral spread of the Gospel using the Old Testament written scriptures. Jesus and his Apostles went around spreading the Gospel based on the Old Testament Scriptures. Quoting the Old Testament Scriptures to prove Messiah had come. The Bereans are said to have studied the Scriptures (OT) to make sure Paul was correct and he commended them for it. Then the letters were written to the various churches that had sprung up then the letters were collected and God ensured they were put into a collection we call the New Testament today. Also remember that by the time the letters were being written error had already crept into the churches and these letters were many times written to correct the errors. Paul and John and others were not afraid to stamp out error. And so it should be today. There was NO more Revelation from God after this. There were discussions and councils to try and fully explain some of the doctrines for the benefit of clarity and for preserving in a nutshell as it were the truths of Scripture once delivered - but where error was found in the very early years it was dealt with. So later additions by various people are not to be accepted wherever they crop up. Even in THIS day and age and since the Reformation many “denominations “ have departed from the truth but yet they call themselves Christian. Some of the nonsense taught in a lot of these large charismatic churches today is appalling ! The Toronto Blessing was an outrage! K. @@dman7668

[@DrBob-gr5ru]

I appreciate the sincerity of our Roman Catholic friends and neighbors. There is much to admire in the Roman tradition but the irreformability of the RC church is the impasse. Dollinger said of Pius IX after Vatican I "He created a new church". I'd say that ship sailed at Constance with the burning of Hus but Dollinger's sentiment is correct.

[@fellow_servant_jamesk8303]

After a few years of trying to better understand the RC position, I could not agree with you more. I acknowledge that there is still much to learn, and am willing to be corrected

[@dreistheman7797]

Lots of teachings are reformable, just not the infallible ones, which is to bind Christians together to what is true, like the Trinity. Without it, we have the heresies, which has come alive again in the Protestant side now, precisely due to the rejection of the Church’s infallibility.

[@DrBob-gr5ru]

@@dreistheman7797 But, they are not true. You're basing your argument on false premises (i.e. Papal Infallibility, Marian Dogmas, etc). Has this alleged unity in the RC Church prevented liberalism from infecting the hierarchy or the laity? Of course not. If anything, Pritestants have a nechanism for separating from our liberals. Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi, and the clearly heresy soft-peddling Francis are still Catholics in good standing with the official church.

[@DrBob-gr5ru]

@@dreistheman7797 Furthermore, if you want to bring historical arguments into the debate, are you subjecting "the Church" to "history" as the final authority? If you go that direction you are in danger of the same fate as Dollinger after Vatican I when he brought up the historical usage of the fraudulent Donation of Constantine and the Pseudo-Isidorian decretals to justify Papal supremacy and the temporal power of the Papacy

[@dman7668]

If the Roman Catholic Church embraced protestant doctrine would Protestants then dumb their churches and just be part of one church?

[@wadeharlan8206]

Gavin, thank you for taking on a debate like this. It was quite helpful and I feel you did an excellent job of gently and respectfully defending our Protestant faith. I would have liked you to have in some way more intentionally addressed the issue of works salvation. When I ask a Catholic, "When you stand before God, if He asks you 'Why should I let you into heaven?', what would you say?" so many of them immediately say they believe in Jesus, and faithfully attend church and confession and take the Eucharist. Regardless of what the Catholic church officially teaches - the people in the pews are often relying on Jesus PLUS their good works. That is a VERY serious and tragic problem. I'd add that one of the issues I try to bring up about praying to Mary is that is goes against our very purpose as Christians... i.e. to glorify God and it goes against the heart of the reason Jesus came to earth... i.e. to reconcile us to God and enable us to have an intimate Father-Son relationship with Him, My heart is just SO grieved whenever I see people praying to Mary. It robs Jesus of glory and the intimacy He longs for with us. Please keep up the good work. I'm praying for God to continue to bless and use your important ministry.

[@stephenbeauregard1101]

Well done Gavin. I appreciate the substance of your arguments and the way in which you approach these discussions. More please!

[@tony49055]

What a great discussion!

[@Ianassa91]

This was a really productive and positive dialogue. Did not feel any bad faith argumentation or assumptions of ill motives. Thank you and God bless ❤

[@benjaminledford6111]

Gavin, I think this video contains some of your finest facial expressions.

[@joeoleary9010]

I wish Gavin would do a video on why early Protestants completely rejected the Mass. We have lots of videos on why the Protestants rejected purgatory, the papacy, and indulgences, but none about their abhorrence of the Mass.

[@ContendingEarnestly]

*I wish Gavin would do a video on why early Protestants completely rejected the Mass.* For the same reason we do today, its blasphemy. Thinking a wafer turns into god to be eaten and that it is propitiatory is nonsense. It is altogether heresy of the highest order.

[@dman7668]

​@ContendingEarnestly either it is heretical, or the Protestants not doing it is heretical. The only way to find out is to look at the early Church, and I am sorry but it doesn't seem to model Protestant belief on this subject.

[@ContendingEarnestly]

@@dman7668 *The only way to find out is to look at the early Church* Really? Thats the ONLY way to find out? So you dismiss scripture altogether? What is your standard, Gods holy inspired word or a bunch of men that disagreed, a lot over several hundred years post apostolic age? Catholics, for some reason think the ecfs belong to them, they don't. And they certainly didn't all define the Lords Table as catholics do today. There were varying degrees of belief. If we look at the bible, there is nothing that looks like the rc mass today. So, i'm sticking with its heretical.

[@dman7668]

​@@ContendingEarnestly I think if we look at how the early Church understood the Bible, that would help us understand how not to misinterpret it.

[@Justas399]

What Christ said to Peter says nothing about a bishop of Rome having that authority.

[@heartofalegend]

Hey brother, thanks for this important discussion. It shows we just need to educate ourselves in basic theology and basic church history to have good responses to Rome, and we can do it with charity. I'm learning from these videos and am very grateful for your ministry.

[@Eternally_Catholic]

I assume you're reading a Bible that has 66 books. The Bible actually has 73 books and has always had 73 books since its very conception in the Council of Rome in 382 AD. It wasn't until the 1500s that Protestants removed 7 books. I mean, 66 is also a number that hints incompleteness (Remember the number of the beast). Anyway, the basic fact is that God founded the Catholic Church and would never let her fall into doctrinal error. (Human error can easily be found because we are all sinners.) But if you don't believe Holy Mother Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, then I guess Luther was right in that the problem is everyone can become their own pope. To quote Luther: "There are as many sects and beliefs as there are heads. This fellow will have nothing to do with baptism; another denies the Sacrament; a third believes that there is another world between this and the Last Day. Some teach that Christ is not God; some say this, some say that." God bless.

[@adamjett7947]

@@Eternally_Catholic this is simply historical revisionism. The Jews did not recognize the deuterocanonical books as being inspired scripture, and there was no one universal Catholic teaching on their canonicity until April of 1546 at the council of Trent. Even as recently as during the time of the reformation there were prominent Cardinals who disagreed with what has since been defined by the Catholic Church as scripture.

[@Eternally_Catholic]

@@adamjett7947 The Jews did recognize those 7 books. They were in the Septuigant Old Testament which was translated by the 12 tribes of Isreal. It wasn't until the year 90 AD (long after the Church was instituted by Christ) that the Jews decided to remove them. Saying the Council of Trent gave the list of canon scriptures is like saying the doctrine of true presence is being defined this year in 2023 because it's the year of Eucharistic revival. The Church sometimes holds councils just to re-emphasize doctrines that are already commonly defined and accepted; part of the reason for this is so Catholics don't get confused or misled about doctrines by heresies that are popping up. A good example is Marian dogmas. They were already believed for centuries before the Church saw the need to define them to combat attacks against Our Lady's holiness. So yes; the Bible canon was 73 books since the Council of Rome. God bless.

[@adamjett7947]

@@Eternally_Catholic thanks for a polite response. The inclusion of those books in the Septuagint does not demand that they were considered inspired works. Many Protestant bibles continued to include the apocryphal works with the disclaimer that certain books were not inspired. We know from the writings of Josephus and other sources that the inter-testamental writings were not laid up in the temple alongside the undisputed OT canon, and that touching the deuterocanonical books did not “make the hands unclean”, which is particularly compelling evidence that the Synod of Jamnia didn’t “remove” any books, but rather confirmed the pre-existing Jewish traditions.

[@Eternally_Catholic]

@@adamjett7947 I thought I heard on the radio that the Jewish temple and priesthood were destroyed in 33 AD, but I guess it was with the raid on Jerusalem in 70 AD that Jesus prophecied. I stop looking to the Jews for authority in 33AD. The Jewish temple and entire priesthood were destroyed in 70 AD so their traditions were broken and no longer have the weight they used to. Who knows how many records they retained from that destruction that are authentic. Besides, the Jews could've done anything in 90AD; they already rejected Jesus so it wouldn't have any impact on my faith.

[@ameribeaner]

LoL catholic man says Mary’s bodily assumption is in John’s Revelation! John’s Revelation: “She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.” ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12‬:‭5‬-‭6‬. John says the Baby(Jesus) is taken into Heaven and the woman(Mary) is cast into the wilderness and is never taken into Heaven. LoL, John refutes Marian dogma.

[@nosacchfry8458]

What a great discussion, thank you both!

[@tannerblacklidge4281]

So refreshing to see a discussion on where we can find common ground ⛪️

[@Anita-silver]

This was helpful to me as it was laid out in a way my tired brain could access it. Thanks to both of you. Would love to see one with someone from the eastern orthodox church as well.

[@rolandovelasquez135]

Thanks again Gavin. Mr. Gordon never answered your historical arguments against the Marian doctrines mentioned. Always changed the subject. Never answered. So obvious. Couldn't help but mention it.

[@countryboyred]

It’s because you can’t defend it. Those dogmas simply didn’t exist in the first 1000 years of the Church.

[@angelvalentinmojica6967]

dialogues are way better than formal debate... just straight to the point. Not gonna lie, I was curious to know ortlund stance on contraception...😂😂 Also as a Catholic, I never heard of David Gordon. I was pretty impressed with him as well.

[@chrisazure1624]

Right after Matthew 16:18 Peter makes an error so great that Jesus called him Satan in 16:23. The first pope got his first declaration wrong. Think about it.

[@EmberBright2077]

Not by Catholic criteria. Peter wasn't issuing a universal binding teaching at that time.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@EmberBright2077 What is notable about the scriptures Catholics use to see Peter as pope, is they take Jesus renaming Peter as Cephas so literally, as in Peter being the rock. Christ is the rock and always has been. But then when Jesus rebukes Peter and calls him Satan, that is ignored, or at least put into balance. Both scriptures need to be put in balance. It's an old argument that will never be resolved, but there's a bit of input into it.

[@chrisazure1624]

@@EmberBright2077 They always have an out clause that does not have scriptural support. I tried to look up heretical popes and the response was "No popes have been judged heretical during their lifetime". Note the "during their lifetime" qualifier? What about just being heretical? Does a pope bringing in Pachamamma into the vatican concern papal infallibility?

[@Testimony_Of_JTF]

@@chrisazure1624 Infalliable authority is supposed to be infalliable, of course no pope has been a heretic. If a pope preaches heresy then he is no longer the pope.

[@Testimony_Of_JTF]

*never was the pope

[@freshwilly4585]

I think David could have allowed Dr. Ortlund to talk more. A little too many interruptions

[@JonathanRedden-wh6un]

Works are important to both Catholics and Protestants. For Catholics works contribute to our salvation for Protestants works are a consequence of our salvation.

[@dman7668]

Well, Catholics don't believe works are contributing to your salvation OR your faith. We are saved by grace through faith working. To be clear. We don't teach any works based salvation. The difference between Catholicism and Protestants is actually over whether or not one's justification can increase. Catholics say that it can (because the Bible says so) and protestantism says it cannot (Sola fide by Martin Luther).

[@srich7503]

Question… Do the works of the monks of the early ages that laboriously copied the Holy Scriptures by hand over and over through out the centuries before the invention of the printing press, because there is no other way to keep the original scriptures, - contribute to the salvation of Protestants? 🤔

[@clayw70]

@srich7503 No works of any person contribute to someone else's salvation. We are certainly blessed for the many people who came before us to preserve the New Testament. However, you don't need a New Testament to be saved. The first Christians, the Jews, didn't have a New Testament when they got saved. What they had was a belief that Jesus was the Messiah, and they put their faith in Him.

[@dman7668]

@clayw70 Well no that is not true. The Jews were not saved by faith alone proving protestant Sola fide. They were saved the same way everyone else is. By justification of their works as well as their faith.

[@clayw70]

@dman7668 No one is justified by works. Works show someone's faith. If works earn/merit grace, then it's no longer grace. Under that premise, a person is earning salvation. I would put it this way: 1. Faith = salvation and works Or 2. Faith plus works = salvation Option 1 is what I chose. For Catholicism, option 2 is what is taught when someone commits a mortal sin. Prior to that, they teach option 1.

[@hectorgarcia9783]

That was a really good video. I would really like to see more and I wish we could all have discussions in this respectful manner. I think as Christians we are called to be different.

[@GrGal]

Thank god for such a discussion, it is never easy to try and reach intellectually the eye level common ground with a formal different position of your own, but if it has to be done [or more precisely believed that should be done] - may it be through dialogue and not the toxic debate mentality.

[@philoalethia]

"Peter, James, and John didn't have time to explain every possible inference..." Yes, but the problem is that many later developments are not valid inferences at all, and that is precisely the point and purpose of appealing to the teachings of Christ, the apostles, and the earliest church witness to attempt to discern what is or is not correct doctrine. Just ask a Roman apologist to provide a valid argument for Papal Supremacy. You'll get a word salad. If we cannot show that something genuinely is a valid inference, then we have no business mandating it.

[@thethinplace]

These Catholic concerns about the Eucharist in Protestantism always ignores the Anglicans and Lutherans. The Eucharist is absolutely central to we Anglicans and our communion partner Lutherans. I wish Catholic apologists would stop considering only Evangelical groups like Baptists and non-denominationals, when discussing Protestantism.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

As far as I understand the Catholic position though, even though you celebrate the Eucharist the way they do, they just claim you don't have a valid priesthood, because you're severed w/ Rome. They claim the only rights to apostolic succession, and claim it has to be the laying on of hands. The laying of hands is biblically modeled, and many denominations still do it, but Catholics alone claim an unbroken line.

[@franciscomelgoza2799]

This is not true. The Orthodox have a valid priesthood even though they don't reciprocate this for Catholics.

[@thethinplace]

I understand the Catholic argument against our Holy Orders via Apostilacae Curae and our response via Saepius Officio. It's much more complicated for them than our unbroken tactile line of Succession because we can actually demonstrate that. They claim it has to do with our Rites of Ordination and the intentions thereof communicated in the 1552-1662 rite found in the BCP. I won't go into it here but their argument doesn't stand up to historic Ordination practices.

[@scottie8365]

@@saintejeannedarc9460which is impossible to do historically as there were a plurality of Bishops in charge in the early Church and I don’t believe there was a single Bishop until around 150AD. Tertullian and Iraneus disagreed on who was the first Bishop of Rome too. Plus the early records that the RC say have been meticulously kept don’t demonstrate that Bishops were ordained by Bishops,they just simply say who followed who in office. We don’t know whether these bishops were ordained by previous bishops or not. In fact, some of the bishops in these lists were martyred, so they could hardly have ordained their successors. It’s fraught with many problems

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@scottie8365 That's a great point actually. Travel was a lot more difficult then, plus martyrdom was all too common. Their claim to an unbroken line is pretty unlikely. Even if it was true though, and even if they could prove it, the bible kind of put it to rest a number of times. When John the Baptist said: 9And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10The axe lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. Math. 3:9,10 There is also how God personally picked Paul as a replacement for Judas, even after the apostles cast lots for Mathius.

[@susanburrows810]

Thank you Dr. Ortlund for emphasizing and ending with the way to be a part of God's family -- through faith in The Truth & repentance, & not in baptism as Catholics believe (although being baptized after belief shows obedience, a showing you're following Christ as your Lord).

[@TheOtherPhilip]

Keep pushing back, Gavin! Make them prove their beliefs with actual proofs and not philosophical arguments.

[@LagMasterSam]

Is there firm proof one way or the other? It seems like philosophical arguments are the best we can get on these topics.

[@sjappiyah4071]

@@LagMasterSam I think what he meant was evidence as in scripture, early church writings, historical data etc… Not just philosophical ideas like “ it’s fitting therefore it is”

[@TheOtherPhilip]

@@sjappiyah4071 Precisely. They are making historical claims so we should see some historical data or else the claim remains unproven. In 1 Corinthians 2: 4-5, Paul says, “My speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with demonstration of the Spirit’s power (v.5) so that your faith might not be based on human wisdom but on God’s power.” Paul wanted their faith to depend upon the proof of God’s demonstration rather than the wisdom of Paul’s argumentation.

[@sjappiyah4071]

@@TheOtherPhilip Exactly my friend

[@marlam8625]

In his writing style, John clearly points to Mary as the New Eve (and the Ark) in his gospel and in revelation. It’s worth noting that Eve lost the title and was never again referred to as Woman after the Fall- NIV- Gen 1:1-2 “In the beginning…..the earth was formless and empty and the Spirit hovered over the waters.” In the first 3 days God gave the earth form; separated light from darkness, waters below from the dome above and land from the waters below- it was no longer formless. The next 3 days, in the exact same order, God populates them with the sun and the stars, the birds of the sky, creatures of the sea and the animals of the land; it is no longer empty. On the evening of the sixth day woman was created and given in marriage; Adam and Eve. John writes “In the beginning… Christ is the light in the darkness (Day1) Jn 1:29 “The next day the Spirit came down from the dome above (heavens) to the waters below;Jordan (Day2) Jn 1:35 “the next day” (Day3) Jn 1:43 “the next day” (Day4) Jesus, in these days gathers the disciples who spread (populate) the earth with his gospel. Jn 2:1 “On the third day”(Day7) there was a wedding, a harkening back to the marriage of Adam, Jesus the Bridegroom says “Woman, what is this to you and to me”? Mary is the the new Eve, the new mother of the living; but in Christ (Rev12:17) “Then the dragon was enraged and went off to make war (Gen3:15) against the rest of her offspring- those who obey Gods commandments and give testimony to Jesus.

[@philoalethia]

Watching Gavin literally biting his lip while David is talking is quite amusing. :)

[@juanonjuan23]

Dr. Ortlund, great video (and channel) thank you for your labor of love. Question. One thing that wasn’t brought up was the doctrine of justification by faith alone. I’ve always understood that to be one of the most important differences between us if not the most important. And Paul in Galatians sees that as a very important issue. I’m just wondering, why didn’t you bring this up? Honest question.

[@countryboyred]

Indeed that’s the biggest difference in my view. The Solas are incompatible with Catholicism- almost a wide enough gap to be able to say the two are different faiths entirely.

[@ttff-bd2yf]

I think a common frustration i have is Augustine for example isn't really early. Three centuries is a long time. The revolutionary war didn't occur three hundred years ago. There's kind of an attempt to push the "early" church into the post nicea 1 era.

[@London-Lad]

Amazing

[@jonathanvickers3881]

“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness” -2 James White 3:16

[@ttff-bd2yf]

Read the council of Trent session 4

[@dman7668]

2 James White lol

[@bobbyrice2858]

David seemed unsettled. Not in a bad way but my feeling his the spirit was reaching him.

[@huntsman528]

You did a really good job.

[@TheNinjaInConverse]

I appreciate the discussion:)

[@susanburrows810]

What does this Catholic admire about Protestantism? Gavin mentioned some good about C, but I didn't hear the same from Mr. Gordon...

[@samuelblackmon]

I'm confused. How did you film a dialogue with a man in 1995?

[@malcolmlayton2050]

Nice to see a measured conversation ... on some streams disagreement = hating whoever you disagree with ... and accusations of being in league with satan

[@Jackie.2025]

Great video!

[@RealCaptainAwesome]

Good conversation. It just seemed like the host follows the tradition that "X Bible passage means this therefore our tradition is taught by the Bible" when the tradition has to pre exist to believe that's what the Bible is talking about.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

Catholics sometimes do just make claims on mere tradition. Conflating the Mathew scripture of Peter and the keys to mean that whatever their church establishes is sacred and holy tradition, whether it's biblical or not. This doesn't work well w/ protestants, who maintain faith and practice from the bible though. So Catholic apologists try to back tradition w/ the bible. It's often very thin there, w/ scriptures out of context, or just very spare scripture to back largely foundational doctrines.

[@joshuafruend3348]

I thoroughly appreciate your thoughts, Dr Ortlund. I indeed think you’re one of the best Protestant apologists out there. As a Catholic, I am particularly interested in your concerns regarding Mariology. I’d love to hear you describe your beliefs/ideas on popular Marian apparitions. Having been to Lourdes and hearing about, as well as witnessing a miraculous cure, I really would like to know the Protestant perspective on the vast numbers of miracles happening at Lourdes (i.e. Mary declared herself to be the Immaculate Conception to St Bernadette at Lourdes, and if this is not true from the Protestant perspective, why are miracles taking place at a Marian shrine?) Also, the tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe and the mystical way in which the image is imprinted on it is another phenomenon. I know these are matters of private revelation, but I just don’t see how they can be ignored. Regardless, keep up the good work of honest ecumenism. God bless.

[@angelvalentinmojica6967]

I dont think protestants have a way to explain it other than being something fabricated or demons. At best they are going to claim being a skeptic.

[@countryboyred]

Miracles happen in every faith. Research Hindu miracles. Research Islamic miracles. There have been many Protestant and Orthodox miracles as well. Miracles are not what our Faith hinges upon.

[@angelvalentinmojica6967]

@@countryboyred well he is talking about marian aparition in those places which is a christian concerns. it would be nice hearing ortlund opinion on it.

[@countryboyred]

@@angelvalentinmojica6967 I agree

[@mikekayanderson408]

The Roman church HAS changed things substantially! clever words and arguments from the RC side but not holding any water I am afraid. K

[@HearGodsWord]

Agreed

[@srich7503]

Yes! One thing the “Roman” church changed is the Bible by adding the 27 books of the NT which i assume you abide by… History shows us that Jesus didn't leave us a bible, the apostles didn't tell us which books belong in the bible, the church fathers never agreed on the 27 books of the NT through the 4th century, not only did they not agree but their list of would-be NT canons were GROWING during this time. So, if it wasn't the Catholic/Orthodox church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that compiled the 27 books of the NT in the 5th century, just 75 years AFTER the council of Nicaea which began the Trinitarian doctrine, and then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and preserved these scriptures by laboriously hand copying them over and over throughout the centuries before the invention of the printing press, the “rule of faith” for many, please tell us, show us, who did? And if this church no longer exists today, what good is the text which came forth from her if she couldn't sustain herself?

[@countryboyred]

@@srich7503The Orthodox Church (Greek, Russian, Antioch, etc) has been the only Church that kept the faith. Rome has so many accretions it’s absurd.

[@srich7503]

@@countryboyred “opinion” noted. But why is it that all these Orthodox are not in communion with each other, you know, if that is REALLY the case? And why is that some, the Ethiopian Orthodox has a different canon?

[@ttff-bd2yf]

Certain Catholic apologists views on scripture, and the canon seem to be in tension. The council of rome never declared the canon. The gelasian decree is a later forgery. The idea that two north african councils one a synod, one a local council 400 years in decided the canon for all of Christendom is a bit odd. I think possibly it is the need for some of the inter testimontal books to provide oroof texts for purgatory for example that drives this argument. The RCC position is really a house of cards.

[@AdithiaKusno]

As a subdeacon in Byzantine Catholic Church who grew up in a Dutch Calvinist tradition I applaud Gavin Ortlund enthusiasm and commitment to the apostolic faith and not provincial or local theolegumenon not attested universally. No Catholic or Orthodox should disagree on this. For that I encourage my Evangelical brothers and sisters to consider St Cyril's seven Marian homilies at Council of Ephesus defending the veneration of Mary as Theotokos, the Akathist to Theotokos at the closing session, and on his second letter to Nestorius read at the Council defending the Eucharistic adoration of the unbloody sacrifice. Add to that the Chalcedonian fathers visited and venerated the shrine of St Euphemia at Chalcedon during the Council of Chalcedon petitioned her apparition and intercession during the Council. These were not provincial or local but rather everywhere and at all times professed since the beginning. Do these sound like late Medieval corruption or ancient faith to you? May the Lord grant you peace.

[@edalbanese6310]

You as well.

[@MrWaves-oj9ge]

Protestants do believe the Lord's table is important but we think its symbolic and not literally transforming into flesh and blood

[@dman7668]

Exactly, but we have to ask ourselves any wasn't this symbolic view going on prior to the reformation? Nobody was teaching that hence I am of the opinion that this "symbolic " Lord's table idea was made up and just a lie. I say that because I don't see this view even being practiced by the Church anywhere prior to the reformation.

[@dman7668]

@clayw70 yeah quoting it doesn't help unless you give some interpretation here. We can qoute Bible verses to one another all day long, but the reality you are intentionally dodging is you don't want to deal the reality that the Church didn't accept this as symbology.

[@dman7668]

@clayw70 Read this and you tell me if this qoute sounds like the protestant or Catholic understanding of the Lords supper. You tell me clay what your thoughts are on why they didn't understand it the symbolic way. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).

[@dman7668]

@clayw70 Yes the didache is mentioning the Eucharist as spiritual food and spiritual drink. It is supernaturally becoming the real body and blood of Jesus Christ. Like I said, we have quotes from the fathers, they knew what this meant and no they didn't take the protestant view of it.

[@srich7503]

@MrWaves-oj9ge - no sir! Not all Protestants believe it is symbolic. Yet another disunity among Protestants…

[@ProfYaffle]

16:59 "if the infinite son of God descended into the womb of a woman, then we should talk to each other with a sense of restraint; that should humble us yo the dust"

[@alexvlk]

What a moment 32:34

[@thegearhouse5337]

My jaw dropped

[@jordand5732]

The Gordon brothers seem honest to me. Whatever my disagreements are/were with them, it was never the case that i felt like they were trying to pull one over on me (like downplaying anathemas and things akin to that). Their approach is more a battering ram, which i can appreciate.

[@palabraviva5840]

😂😂😂 the look on Gavin’s face when the other guys talks about Mary

[@mikekayanderson408]

No ecumenical mixing with Rome. We teach different doctrines. Rome teaches a different way of salvation! A different way of Justification. We cannot condone basic biblical doctrinal error. Maybe there are some similarities about what we believe about God and other things in general - but the stuff we disagree on are vital to salvation. k

[@dman7668]

We do not teach a different justification so much as we disagree over whether or not justification can increase.

[@ContendingEarnestly]

Gavin, serious question. Do you consider roman catholics brothers and sisters in the faith? Or a mission field. Some of your initial comments leads me to believe you think the former. They do not have the same gospel of biblical Christianity or the same jesus. Unless you believe as they do a consecrated host is actually god. Some things we simply cannot bend on or compromise.

[@joekey8464]

If that's how you see Catholic as not brothers in faith, then you've gone so far astray from true Christianity. "consecrated host is actually god"....this is really really far away.

[@fellow_servant_jamesk8303]

Gavin has been explicit on this question. Many times. Yes. He considers Roman Catholics brothers and sisters of the Faith.

[@ContendingEarnestly]

@@joekey8464 *"consecrated host is actually god"....this is really really far away.* Really? Is the eucharist worshiped? Yes. CCC 1378 *Worship of the Eucharist.* In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, Even catholics will admit that to worship something that is not god is idolatry. They worship the eucharist. Is the eucharist god? CCC 1392 What material food produces in our bodily life, Holy Communion wonderfully achieves in our spiritual life. Communion with the flesh of *the risen Christ,* The risen Christ is God yes? I have more if you like. And i'd be interested in hearing how the risen Christ got on the cross in the first place. The mass (allegedly) is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of calvary. On calvary was a Jesus of flesh and bone. A Jesus who could die. The risen Christ cannot die. How does this happen again? Brothers and sisters in the faith? Sorry, no offense but we do not share the same faith. If a catholic believes in and promotes and protects all of the catholic faith, we are on two different paths here. If a rc is truly born again they are so not by their rc doctrine and dogmas but despite that doctrine. The true gospel is not a gospel of faith + _____________. Gavin should know this.

[@countryboyred]

@@joekey8464Gavin answers your question at around 57:54

[@joekey8464]

@@countryboyred Belief in the Holy Eucharist will unite all Christians for this is an intimate union with Christ Himself - the real presence - "he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and abides in me, and I in him" - - The first announcement of the Eucharist divided the disciples, just as the announcement of the Passion scandalized them: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat? many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” and Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? "Will you also go away? Jesus asked the Twelve. From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. Belief in the Eucharist is a gift of Grace. The Eucharist and the Cross are stumbling blocks. It is the same mystery and it never ceases to be an occasion of division. "Will you also go away? The Lord's question echoes through the ages, as a loving invitation to discover that only he has "the words of eternal life" and that to receive in faith the gift of his Eucharist is to receive the Lord himself. The biggest difference between Catholics and Protestants is the Eucharist. What is it that the Eucharist provides? The very thing, that Protestant cherishes the most: the Real Presence of Christ and our real union with Christ, ‘accepting the Lord Jesus as your personal Savior’ in the most real, total, complete, personal, concrete and intimate way.

[@marlam8625]

Thanks Dr Ortlund for your charity and thoughtful responses. When you both were speaking of the ‘seed and tree being the same ‘oakness’ it occurred to me that the deposit of faith given to the apostles is like conception of a child in the womb. All the life, her limbs, her characteristics and traits are present at that earliest moment- until manifest.

[@Golden_writes550]

Dr Gavin you mentioned 48:03 min," The Church discerns the word of God." Which I agree. But how then did Luther call the book of James ,"the book of straw?" If he was led by the Spirit? Who inspired the book of James? And he also questioned other books as well. How can he be led by the Spirit if he disagreed with the Spirit at that time? This has always concerned me.

[@countryboyred]

Most Protestants don’t even claim Luther or have any affection for him. He’s just a guy that was smart enough to break away from the RCC and start a new tradition. He was far from infallible.

[@legomegaman101]

loved david gordon, this is my first exposure to him and enjoyed it a lot

[@marksmale827]

This idea that the church must continually submit to the authority of the Bible raises a couple of questions in my mind. (1) How did the early church submit to that authority in the centuries before the canon of the NT had been finalised? (2) Where does that authority itself indicate, explicitly or implicitly, that the church must do this? Is this a human invention?

[@dman7668]

All fair questions and worthy of debating.

[@dman7668]

@@clayw70 Jesus condemning tradition of pharasees isn't an argument that we do not follow apostolic tradition. The early Church didn't follow scripture alone, and even Saint Paul himself never stated to his disciples that we follow scripture alone. He makes it clear we are to follow his oral teachings the same as written teachings. These arguments have been rebutted many times before by other apologists so it wouldn't do for me do the exact same thing over again here. You don't care and for you all that exists is Sola scripture and your brain shuts down when confronted with the Bible not supporting that idea, or the early Church.

[@clayw70]

@dman7668 You missed my point on Jesus' example. Based on your response, you didn't actually read what I wrote or try to understand my points. I challenge you to objectively prove which oral traditions from the Apostles were passed down but not written. Unlike many Catholics, I want to see clear evidence to support claims. I don't blindly believe what people tell me.

[@dman7668]

@@clayw70 Yes, these are the same points protestants have been making, citing passages where Jesus says it is written as if it's automatically saying Sola scripture. I get it and I've read these arguments before and like I said, they've been rebutted before. I'm not interested in rebutting today. No proof that the Church didn't follow Sola scripture would ever satisfy you. Even proof form the formation of the bible canon itself isn't based on Sola scripture.

[@dman7668]

@@clayw70 There will be no salvation outside of Christ, whatever you think you understand I have no doubt isn't the Catholic position. If anyone is saved the Church is position is it is going to be by Christ, not around him.

[@laurapiovan]

Why do Protestant find the issue of Mary such a big deal? That’s easy ! Because catholic dogma’s such as the bodily assumption of Mary or her role as a mediator have a curse atttached to them. The council of Trent speaks a curse on those who don’t believe Catholic dogmas . Catholic Church is the only church who curses those who disagree with her

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

That would be one of the issues. Not all protestants know that though. I'd say the main issue is how their claims of hyper dulia verge into idolatry to the discernment of most protestants. The attributes given to Mary are too often the attributes of Christ, and their prayers to her are full of praise and worship. To the Catholic, to not praise her in this way is considered blaspheme and they think we don't respect her enough.

[@joekey8464]

Matthew 18.17 - "If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Yes, it really does seem to be condemnation, if one rejects the church.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@joekey8464 You left a very important part of that scripture out. What it really says is, "if your brother sins against you, go to your brother and if they receive you, you have restored your brother. If they don't, bring 2 other members"... then the scriptures you mentioned. This is about sinning against someone and restoring forgiveness.

[@joekey8464]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." It says that if two have issues with each other, they should try to settle it themselves, but if all resource cannot settle it, then they take it to church for judgement. This disagreement can be about anything (scriptures', commandments, doctrines, etc.) partaking to God and the ultimate authority is the church. Rejecting the judgement of the church is condemnation. Marian doctrines are reveal truths of God, thru the church and rejecting any revealed truth no matter how minor it may seem, is still rejecting the church.

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@jpc9923 The internet is a wonderful medium for us to be able to dialogue and seek to understand one another better.

[@Justas399]

Rev 12 details don't fit the details of Mary.

[@haronsmith8974]

Yes it does

[@Justas399]

@@haronsmith8974 Here is what a catholic commentary says: Catholic scholars Raymond Brown and J.A. Fitzmyer, editors of the Jerome Biblical Commentary (2:482): “Mary-a woman: Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications. In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.”

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

40:00 a) The Protestants think that the woman is "the Church" b) The Catholics think the Woman is Mary c) The Messianic Jews think that the Woman is the nation of Israel. Yup....

[@davidjanbaz7728]

God's wife is Israel in the Old Testament: the Bride of Christ is the body of believers ( the church) not an organization! Don't confuse the Different Covenants!

[@janewhitely964]

This Pentecostal agrees that the woman is Israel.

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

@@davidjanbaz7728 I am interest to understand why you think I am confusing the covenants. If it helps you just substitute my use of the word "the Church" with Bride of Christ. The point still stands.

[@marinusswanepoel1825]

@@janewhitely964 I think so too - we Pentecostals tend to be very pro Israel as we look towards the appearance of our Lord.

[@timsturgill6813]

I find the Catholic question about how the early heresies came about is easy to understand. The influences of the various pagan and pseudo-christian cults were the cause of the confusion. As people from Greek and Roman pagan religion and philosophy entered the church, they brought that view point to interpreting the scriptures.

[@scottie8365]

I can’t get on board with the forced Marian typology used by RC,I’ve recently heard that the woman in Revelation 12 must be Mary because Jesus called her woman in John 2:4 and as such it was a clue for later on! Or that Mary is the new Eve,well we know through Scripture that Jesus was another Adam and Eve was Adams wife not mother. Paul also likens Adam and Eves marriage to Jesus marriage to his Bride,the Church. Then there’s Mary being the new Ark as well as using the story of Adonijah to try and prove that because Bathsheba is the Queen Mother who stands at the Kings right hand it means Mary is the Queen of Heaven who stands at the right hand of God. Sorry but it’s desperately forced for me. God Bless all 🙏

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

I had forgotten about the supposed type or clue, or whatever they claim it is, of Jesus calling Mary woman. Jesus called the Samaritan woman at the well, "woman", as well, as I've pointed out to to them. No answer, because it's just grasping. The Rev. picture of the woman giving birth, you could almost hand to them. Except they call her queen of heaven and that's a dangerous thing, as the only reference to queen of heaven in the bible, was the Jews falling into idolatry. Looking up queen of heaven, she was described just like Mary, as a perpetual virgin and w/out sin, so we know where Catholics get their elevated views of Mary from. They always claim there was never any mixture w/ paganism, yet it's pretty clear there was. But I don't want to be focusing on the negative. It was a great discussion. We will always have our doctrine differences w/ Catholics, and we have to find ways past it, because our culture is rotting and things are heating up out there.

[@scottie8365]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 I did not know that about the Queen of heaven,thanks! Yes I enjoyed it too,leaves you wanting more though sadly when things are just touched on

[@saintejeannedarc9460]

@@scottie8365 You didn't know about the OT idolatry to the queen of heaven, I think is what you meant. I'm sure you know they routinely call her queen of heaven. I looked up queen of heaven and found some neutral sources on it,where it wasn't railing on the Catholic practice of it, just giving the history. It was pretty telling.

[@scottie8365]

@@saintejeannedarc9460 yes I knew about the OT idolatry in Jeremiah ,I just wasn’t aware of there being the same attributes as given to Mary.

[@Texasdonna]

Dr. Ortlund has had a lot of dialogue with some highly intelligent and charitable Roman Catholics. This guy wasn’t one of them.