Cameron Bertuzzi's Conversion to Rome: Protestant Response

[@CapturingChristianity]

I knew you’d respond, and was hoping you would, but I didn’t expect one so quickly! Looking forward to working through this when things settle down. Love you and appreciate your work, Gavin!

[@Wgaither1]

Hi Cameron

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks Cam, love you too and look forward to continuing to dialogue. Hope you're settling in from your travels.

[@examinetruth5392]

@@TruthUnites 8:40 Not true: There is something called "Perfect Contrition" which can be outside of Confession, and it does obtain forgiveness of mortal sins! Also, what is Mortal sin is a bit harder to flesh out then you think, Jimmy Akin has a good article on that. But If you are not sorrowful for your MORTAL sins, how do you even love God? PS I Would love to see you have a conversation with Seraphim Hamilton (Kabane), He is one of those Apostolic Christians that truly explains the Gospel perfectly, Justification, the Atonement theory and the rest. As much educated you are, I still think you don't understand fully what Catholics and Orthodox believe in this area.

[@TruthUnites]

@@examinetruth5392 yes, I am aware there are exceptions, that is not at odds with what I said. God bless

[@Wgaither1]

@@examinetruth5392 I thought you have to do penance before your back in the state of grace

[@bairfreedom]

I am protestant and ALWAYS thought the New and Old testaments were tied together! So weird anyone would think any different.

[@dman7668]

They are tied together, it is because of the way that they are tied together, that we can embrace the authority of the Papacy over the authority of Protestant denominations. If you see how typology works, you can see that the Catholic Church is actually just a continuation of the old davidic kingdom.

[@dman7668]

I think it's interesting how Ortlund rejects Isaiah 22 and the keys of authority given to him as having any sort of significance when we fast forward to keys being given to Saint Peter. He may not find this a strong typology, but we can't just dismiss it either. It does parallel the New Testament and the authority of the Papacy nicely.

[@sketchbook1]

Read the book of Hebrews. There is no more Levitical priesthood, and the Melchizedek priesthood is what Jesus alone holds. All believers are priests also, by the way, offering up spiritual sacrifices to God through Christ. (See 1Peter 2:5)

[@dman7668]

We are not sharing equal authority in this new priesthood.

[@relajado-fx5rf]

@@dman7668The papacy isn't biblical so not really

[@amymacmillan5673]

As a Protestant, I have always been taught and believed the OT and NT were connected and important!

[@paulrichards6894]

but nothing in there thats true.....no many historians believe the people in the OT were real people and the NT there is no independent evidence its fact

[@soulfulmeditation.smoothre7746]

Thank you Gavin! I'm a Pastor in the Philippines, educated in the states but been struggling with the arguments of Scott Hahn, Cameron from Capturing Christianity and many other Protestants converting. Been on the rocky boat lately as I have been spiritually monotonous and when I visited a Catholic Church one time, with it's architecture and maybe of the new ideas plaguing me, I felt like I was more closer to God and can sense that more intimate spiritual connection while inside that church. Your response has been a great help to me, as I don't really find in depth sources defending our position. Keep up the good work, we need more people like you. God bless you brother!

[@udmgraduate]

I'm only 2 minutes in and I've watched you talk a number of times on Catholic channels (I'm a traditional Catholic convert from Protestantism). I just gotta say Dr. Ortlund, you're incredibly virtuous and I have a lot of admiration for you. You're the best Protestantism has to offer. We disagree in much, but man I hope to have a cup of coffee with you one day in Heaven.

[@TruthUnites]

thank you, and I hope for the same!

[@KSTrekker]

I would completely agree. I am not familiar with your work at Truth Unites, but you seem very charitable and virtuous. I just wish my Protestant friends and family shared these traits, as I announced my conversion almost one year ago and have been met with nothing but hate and accusations. I pray for my brother Cameron as he is going to face an uphill battle and a ton of criticism. Protestantism has become the de facto Christian religion in the Western world and Catholics converts are treated very poorly in my opinion. If I were to come out as Gay (I most certainly am NOT!), that would be easier than converting to Catholic.

[@udmgraduate]

@@KSTrekker Yeah my Protestant parents disowned me for a short bit. Now we have a much better relationship, but it's been 11 years in the making.

[@KSTrekker]

@@udmgraduate - I'm glad to hear that and hope I can someday reconcile with my parents over my conversion. My advice to all Christians is to be charitable and listen when someone wants to convert to either side. Throwing out centuries-old myths and spouting cherry-picked Bible verses doesn't help anyone. Take the time to just listen to why they feel the need to convert. Peace be with you all!

[@joycegreer9391]

Don't know as you have fallen for deception. Perhaps if you can disregard "Catholic" doctrine and find true salvation on your own. You apparently didn't before when you were exposed to the Truth.

[@jaymieshaw9483]

As a Catholic i thank you so much for your astute and sincere critique. You gave man a lot to think about. While I do not plan on becoming a Protestant I am filled with so much gratitude and respect for people like you. It gives me hope that we can share our beliefs and have discourse while encouraging and praying for one another without the ugly and nasty discord that sometimes follows.

[@silveriorebelo2920]

didn't you notice he is a rabbid anti-catholic??

[@paulrichards6894]

Cameron is a catholic for 1 reason....it will earn more $$$$$$$$$$$$

[@lifewasgiventous1614]

​@@silveriorebelo2920 Thats an ignorant take

[@Nonreligeousthiestic]

@@silveriorebelo2920 Someone is rabid about something aren't they?

[@jacoblebron5035]

I think @silveriorebelo2920 was joking lol

[@zakkonieczka6811]

As a Christian who is a member of The Catholic Church, I am often challenged (and frustrated) by your arguments. However your tremendous charity and goodwill give me an enormous amount of respect for you and your ministry. Thanks for all you do it is greatly appreciated.

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks for the kind words, and glad to be in touch. Truly sorry for when I contribute to the frustration through my own imperfections. Let's keep talking.

[@zakkonieczka6811]

@@TruthUnites I'm only human I can't help but be frustrated by a hard to argue point well made.

[@TruthUnites]

@@zakkonieczka6811 I know the feeling! :)

[@thomasc9036]

Jesus was not charitable to religious leaders. Are you challenged by the actions of Jesus and his criticisms?

[@zakkonieczka6811]

@@thomasc9036 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. -Matthew 5:17 Paul replied, “Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: ‘Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.’” -Acts 23:5 Personally I don't view scripture as being in tension with authority and I don't feel as confident in my abilities to discern legitimate authority from corrupt authority as exceptionally as Christ.

[@kylewinter8766]

Gavin, I’m a Lutheran pastor a few states away from you. Brother, you are such a gift to the church. Your rigor, your charity, your tone of voice. Everyone who listens is benefiting. God bless you, brother.

[@Anthony-Avoiding-Babylon]

You should become Catholic Kyle.

[@TruthUnites]

Thank you Kyle!

[@an7440]

These are all the things I don’t like about Gavin simply because his intentions are not right or not thought through enough

[@silveriorebelo2920]

reckless anti-catholic biogotry with a soft voice - yeah, that must be very convincing for a Lutheran - it really seems to show a deep love in Christ

[@joekingjoekingjoeking]

@@silveriorebelo2920 what would say is a good model of disagreeing with Catholics and Catholicism in a loving way? Or, what do you define as bigotry and how can it be avoided? Thanks

[@sgjdavidson3907]

You are really the final boss of online protestantism. I don't wanna like a Baptist but you really help me to stand on the Protestant ground. Thank you sir. Your voice is necessary.

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks! It's funny, people make SO much of me being a Baptist and a Calvinist -- but I get it.

[@catholicapologetics7263]

@@TruthUnites You being a Calvinist should not be in the least shocked or surprised or even comment on Cameron converting to Catholicism since your Calvinistic deity God predestined Cameron to become Catholic in the first place , so why are you commenting on it and not simply telling you're flock of 16th century johnny come lately theological cult members this is what God has predestined

[@TomPlantagenet]

@@catholicapologetics7263you certainly do prove the saying of being able to tell a tree by its fruit

[@TomPlantagenet]

Why wouldn’t you wanna like a Baptist?

[@bmide1110]

@Catholic Apologetics Dear friend in Christ, I pray the Lord’s blessings upon you and your family. If you will permit me to say in love a strong word to you: it dishonors the very photo of our Lord in your profile for you to speak so uncharitably to a brother in Christ like you did in this comment to Gavin.

[@feliciaciappetta342]

Dr. Ortlund, I'm Catholic and I love your channel! You have such a charitable approach to debate, which I very much appreciate. I believe the sad truth is very few Christians, regardless of tradition, actually know and understand why they believe what they believe. So sad. The body of Christ can do better. May God bless you and Cameron abundantly. Thank you for your work.

[@TruthUnites]

Thank you Felicia, may the Lord bless you!

[@newglof9558]

I'm a Catholic who follows you, and while I'm happy Cameron became Catholic (as I am Catholic and believe it's true), I get deeply frustrated by many (but not all) Catholics' inability to contend with Protestantism outside of caricatures. Many think rebuttals like "33k denominations" and "where in the Bible is only the Bible" are sound and are generally unwilling to make distinctions between, say, scholastic orthodox Lutheranism vs post-Second Great Awakening evangelicalism, all grouping it into the "protestant" bucket. Catholics will be better Catholics and better Christians if they actually focused on understanding classical Protestantism, as our Protestant and evangelical friends have much to teach us. And again, I say this as a convicted Catholic.

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks for the great comment

[@thecatechumen]

Very true.

[@newglof9558]

Another unrelated addendum: I'm very curious about Cameron's Bayesian calculator. I hope he publishes it.

[@ProfYaffle]

@@newglof9558 I think I would like to see that too

[@joebarrett3778]

Point taken but i find evasion rather than debate if my antagonists attempto alter

[@ΚύριοςἸησοῦς-ρ9ε]

Catholic: Protestants can believe whatever they want Jordan Cooper: Hold my book of concord

[@kylemckinney_22]

I love Jordan Cooper

[@Defender_of_Faith]

Then why are there so many different denominations with different beliefs even to the point of lesbian pastors?

[@User_5tjk42gj9]

​@@Defender_of_FaithWhy are there gay catholic priests? Differences in beliefs in not uniquely protestant,and sinful and bad leaders is not uniquely protestant. I believe it was Jesus that said "take the beam out of your own eye before taking the beam out of your brothers eye".

[@paulnash6944]

@@Defender_of_FaithBecause hardness of human hearts still exists.

[@Defender_of_Faith]

@@User_5tjk42gj9because those two pastors are married to each other, actively living a life in sin intentionally. Just being a gay person is not a sin

[@jsonS1977]

You speak with both such grace and clarity. It resonates with me when you said to take your time to study Protestantism. I first became Christian when I was 13 but was always drawn to the Roman church. In good conscience I didn’t convert but went ahead and got baptized in a baptist church, joined the Assemblies of God in university, the Methodists upon graduation and now am Anglican (and I’m 45 now!) I’m still not done studying the Catholic church but in doing so, it has influenced my journey in Protestantism. Your channel is so helpful to help frame so many of these discussions and makes me realize I have so much more to study and learn. I’m grateful for all that you do here - thank you.

[@JonathanMP23]

Another good insightful video. You are quickly becoming one of my favorite Protestant KZbinrs (I myself am Protestant). Your emphasis on enriching modern evangelicalism with theology, church history, and theological retrieval are incredibly beneficial. Furthermore, your humility and overall attitude is very refreshing. Keep up the great work!

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks Jon, glad to be connected!

[@GospelSimplicity]

I really appreciated point number one. I've often thought of it as pitting your local pastor against Thomas Aquinas - it's just not a fair fight. Further on that point, I've often thought, "if it wasn't for taking a class on Calvin with an incredible Anglican professor, I probably would've become Catholic very quickly." I don't even claim the title Calvinist, but in studying the best of the Reformation, I was able to get a much different picture of the Reformation.

[@hopebyers360]

I grew up protestant, and my dad has been a pastor most of my life. I recently was married to a protestant, who now has decided to become Catholic. It’s been such a struggle and definitely has tested my trust and faith in God. It’s very confusing and I’m just praying and trusting that the Lord will guide him. I am so glad I found your channel. It’s been extremely encouraging. Thank you so much!

[@TruthUnites]

glad its been helpful! May the Lord direct you and guide you

[@KM-zn3lx]

My husband is protestant and I was a Catholic, just pray that ur husband truly seek the Lord. He may have a perspective and share with others in the Catholic church. There are saved Catholics in the RCC, they're just better Christians than Catholics and really don't believe all the doctrines of the church.

[@countryboyred]

@kennethchidozie3317Lmao. Dramatic much?

[@hayeslincoln3111]

Classic prodastantism really comes down to martin Luther and his axe to grind with the red Catholic hierarchy of his day. Luther was a Catholic priest. Very devoted to the faith. The church was in the time of corruption internally in lots of political wrangling . So they were involved in personal infighting . Luther was a man with personal issues. He had a great sense of self loathing. It manifested itself in his inability to accept God's mercy and live his life as best he could. He got to the point by where he decided that because he was never going to be good enough . The only avenue was to just have faith. Because in his mind his acts his work. His holyness was never going to be good enough. That's were this is idea of faith alone comes from. It's really kind of pride to think that way. And with the church being corrupt selling indulgences and misrepresenting what that aspect of the faith was there for. He got hopeless and just bailed out of the church. He never wanted to leave the church. But a series of events took place. And then we got the split of from that came the church of England because Henry 8 the wanted out of his union. If Luther can do it so can I. And then we got Calvin's methodists Baptists are a product of this but morphed into an American church. And so it goes. So classic prodastantism is really based after misinterpreted faith one man's pain and a progression of practices that have gotten away from the true mission of the church. That being the salvation of our souls. The way Jesus helped this prossess was giving us tolls and his graces to keep us strong day to day. Things like holy Communion Confession Marriage Last rites Baptism Holy orders And one more I can t remember These were tools that the prodastants church disregarded because they were administered by the Catholic Church. But these things are the very things that we need for holyness day to day. . To be born again and your all good and going to heaven because Jesus Christ is your savior is an oversimplification sold to us over the years . Why because someone somewhere decided this stuff was that old Catholic guilt stuff we don t need. It wasn't t guilt . It was protection . So in my opinion the prodastant reformation has done more harm because it disregarded the really special things Jesus put before us to help us gain salvation. And now it's mainstay thinking. One has to go back to the beginning and really get serious about the faith. When you do this. You'll become Catholic again because you will have all the facts.

[@ethanstrunk7698]

@@hayeslincoln3111well thats one way of putting it, but also a careful study of greek grounded sola fide

[@GratiaPrima_]

I was blessed when I converted to Catholicism in that I didn’t lose any friends of family. Everyone was great. But you’re right, that’s not everyone’s case. You’re right, people’s decisions either way should be respected. Can’t imagine doing it in the public eye. Praying for Cameron and his family and ministry. Glad to welcome him home and excited to see what happens in the future for him!

[@theknight8524]

I always see you commenting on every single protestant video saying "Baptist to catholic because of the Eucharist" As an ex-catholic myself Many protestants celebrate Eucharist And You may be aware about the scams happening in Catholic churches in the name of Eucharist!!!

[@brittoncain5090]

@@theknight8524 What scams in the name of the Eucharist are taking place exactly?

[@GratiaPrima_]

@@brittoncain5090 It seems we’re not going to get an answer, but I’d like to know too. Haven’t heard anything like that.

[@Jamesyeah]

@@theknight8524 then youre ex catholic right? You didn't know that this i already in scriptures and Apostle are doing it The Eaucharist practice because Jesus said in the Last Supper do in memory of me What apostles and Early Christians do? Well read this 1cor 10:16-17 Read that verse if its a scam even Jesus are telling his apostle to remember with him do this Eucharist in memory of him Read 16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord? 17 For we, being many, are one bread, one body, all that partake of one bread.

[@theknight8524]

@@brittoncain5090 i was an eastern Catholic but i will link to a video if you want👇 kzbin.info/www/bejne/fJrMloKfppKBrLc kzbin.info/www/bejne/hnW3p62ejNFsY9U Eucharist scams in eastern countries is quite often and my main point was protestants celebrate Eucharist.

[@Jerome616]

I’m Catholic and I love the way you are directing the conversation here past the old tired arguments and into the minutia of what are the actual concerns that Protestants “should” have with Catholicism.

[@TruthUnites]

thanks, so glad to hear that

[@forwardechoes]

I agree, this gentleman and Mike Winger are probably the only protestant even worth listening to in this topic. And I do sincerely appreciate that. Because usually is almost comedic. But.... still a long way to go and a few blind spots to deal with....

[@thecatechumen]

Completely agree.

[@richlopez5896]

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”- St. Cyprian of Carthage (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).

[@michaelmannucci8585]

The actual concerns Protestants *should* have with RC is wherever it strays from the Word of God, particularly in its anathema of the true saving Gospel. But maybe concern with God's Word and the Gospel is "old and tired".

[@kevinmc62]

I have to say Dr Ortlund you have become my favorite Protestant apologist and one of my favorite apologists period. I’m Catholic but I love your heart man!

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks Kevin! Glad to be connected to you.

[@GustAdlph]

I am a former Catholic, and the main difference is that Catholics never have assurance of salvation. They affirm we are saved by grace, but grace in the Catholic church is the help God gives you to perform meritorious works.

[@srich7503]

Do you know who else didnt have assurance of salvation? The millions of evangelicals in the world today that once said they were saved and believed it when they said it. Hmmmmm!

[@TrueNation-fw2wo]

@@srich7503They just don’t know the gospel. I’m Bible believing Evangelical Christian. I’m 100% absolutely sure that I’ll go to heaven. Because Jesus died for my sin and rose from the dead. And it is not based on me in any sense. But ONLY by Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for my sin, and accepting his free gift of salvation, which is putting faith in Christ. So reason I’m going to heaven is based on what Christ did on the cross.

[@TrueNation-fw2wo]

Yea! You’re right!! I believe that you’re 100% absolutely certain that you’ll go to heaven. And reason is because of everything what Christ did on the cross

[@srich7503]

@@TrueNation-fw2wo “They” said they did just as you do. 🤷🏽‍♂️

[@TrueNation-fw2wo]

@@srich7503 Sorry? I couldn’t understand what you’re saying

[@Adam-ue2ig]

I definitely agree with reading widely. I've spent 11 years voraciously reading all kinds of things from both sides, the patristics, theologians, historians, scholars, apologists, councils, the CCC, Newman, Augustine, Aquinas, Reformation history, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, the synod of Dort, Wesley, etc. I even took a church history class under Dr. Mayhew. After all the research and study I am even more deeply convinced of Protestantism. My Catholic friends would tell me if I just read the Fathers I would convert, or if I just read this or do this or that I would convert (much of the advice or reading recommendations I had already studied in detail on my own anyways) but after each challenge I would always come out more strongly convinced and reaffirmed that I am in the correct belief as a Protestant Christian.

[@daniels3537]

Are you comfortable with the doctrinal divisions given Jesus’s prayer in John 17?

[@Adam-ue2ig]

@@daniels3537 I've never considered it a strong argument for Catholicism actually, if you look at the chaos and divisions in the current "Francis pontificate " it's really bad and it's like calling the kettle black. Atleast almost all of the denominational stuff from Protestantism is on secondary theological issues that Christians have liberty to agree to disagree on.

[@Adam-ue2ig]

@@daniels3537 also it has seemed to me that many Catholic apologists make a huge jump from Unity to truth...even if they were unified (which they are not) it doesn't follow that unity necessarily equates to truth. Of course I'm not making a one to one comparison but it will serve well enough for the point. The nazis were unified under hitler that jews were an inferior race (it doesn't follow that therefore it is true).

[@Adam-ue2ig]

@@daniels3537 also I take John 17 to ultimately be more of a statement of fact in the unity of the ultimate union of all the born again believers worldwide (the invisible church) rather than necessarily unity meaning absolute agreement of every jot and title of theological nuances.

[@daniels3537]

Sorry…just getting back to this. Regarding your first comment, you didn’t address my question. I asked if you are comfortable with the current state of disunity within Christendom. I think too many Christians take it as status quo, despite Jesus’s fervent prayer in John 17. In you gut, do the divisions that currently exist *not something that fall within the scope of Jesus’s prayer?

[@AndrewSmith-zp4mg]

This is a beautiful video. I went Catholic after, what I thought, was a lot of research. But after seeing some of your arguments on other videos, I've realized I haven't struggled nearly as much as I should have. Thanks for what your doing!

[@fuelfreak108]

I appreciate your videos, Gavin. I started looking into Catholicism, but the more I dug into it, the more I saw half-truths and bizarre wordplay as the primary defense of Roman Catholic teachings and apologetics. Most of the issues I took with the Catholic church before I really dug into it were descendant dogmas from the papacy. I always wondered why they seemed so clearly in error, but didn't know enough about Catholic theology to realize that most of these errors arise directly from the purported infallibility of popes. When you pull the thread, the papacy itself crumbles into obvious error, which necessitates a much deeper look at the allegedly infallible dogmas espoused by the office over time. There are certainly some aspects of Catholic thought that have pushed my thinking closer to that of the RC church, but the papacy itself is just so theologically and historically frail.

[@duketta]

Love this video! I'll repeat listen to it many times. Thank you 💖🙏

[@sharingthegospel8570]

This is one of the best YT videos I have seen ever. - Reformed Protestant God Bless you richly brother.

[@stephanelarochelle2484]

Left protestantism after 40+ years (served as elder and deacon) and became Catholic 5 years ago. At one point you just have to follow what you believe as truth. Lost friends, but I do not regret it one second. But I have great respects for my protestant brothers as many of them put me to shame by their great love of Christ and the Bible.

[@azophi]

Yup… and I’m an agnostic now, I suppose for the same reason 😅 Seek the truth! Question yourself. So yeah I totally agree that valuing intellectual honesty is great

[@stephanelarochelle2484]

@@azophi Agreed! You should always be questioning yourself and searching for new facts. For me the case for Christ was just too strong to even consider Agnosticism. But we can only base yourself on what we know and learn. When you stop learning, then you slowly wither away ...

[@azophi]

@@stephanelarochelle2484 fair enough. I’ll keep reaching out towards the truth! I still go to church haha I just don’t partake in the sacraments. (Well a Protestant church)

[@stephanelarochelle2484]

@@azophi Same for me, it is a lifelong search 🙂

[@adamvillemaire984]

Very sad ....how could you believe in Marian Doctrines??? No fondation at all in scripture .....how could you kneel before a statue .....?? Adore communion bread .....?? Do this IN REMEMBRANCE of me ....and how could you believe in pergatory??? Not in scripture ...no church fathers beleives RC teaching of pergatory today.......I WAS BORN ROMAN CATHOLIC....WAS ALL MY LIFE ....NEVER KNEW THE BIBLE ...NEVER KNEW JESUS PERSONNALLY ....i see multitudes in my RC Land not knowing God ....my grandmother going up 25 stairs on knees to statue of Ste Anne .....lighting candles ....RCC is abusive wrong ....priests controlled my country for générations ...i see freedom of protestant Lands and slavery of RC Lands....STUDY ....TRAVEL ...LEARN ...

[@barelyprotestant5365]

I'm glad you posted this video; I pretty much agree with it entirely.

[@MSmith-lb4mh]

HI Gavin, Catholics don't confess to men AND to God. We only confess sins to God. In the sacrament of confession, we confess our sins to God through a man. Jesus works through the priest. When I go to the priest I know that I am speaking to God through the priest and when the priest says "By the ministry of the church, I absolve you of your sins...." I know it is Jesus speaking to me through the church. When I hear those words spoken by the priest - there is nothing better - so beautiful and so freeing. I love Confession. Confession is healing because Jesus is there and His grace is present through the priest! When protestants confess to each other, I would imagine it is totally different - your friend/pastor could never say the words "I absolve you of your sins"....or, would they? You are right, there were problems in the church during the reformation. But Luther wasn't the only reformer - there were good Catholics calling for reform during the time of Luther- But, unlike Luther they did not break away from the church. The Augustine Institute has a series called "True Reformers" which shows how others, during the time of Luther, were able to reform without causing division. Also, Dr Tim Gray has some videos about Martin Luther where he mentions that the reformation was beginning long before Luther and there were many great saints during the reformation who helped reform the church - such as Saints Ignatius of Loyola, Thomas More, Francis de Sales, Philip Neri, Charles Borromeo, and Teresa of Avila. The fact that the church needed reforming isn't a case against Catholicism. I think it is more important to understand HOW someone seeks to reform. If your version of reform involves disobedience and division - that is not true reform - at least not in my opinion. True reform is a call to deeper prayer - to a more sincere and profound relationship with Christ.

[@gospeltruth6368]

Is the Catholic church wrong about Islam?

[@MSmith-lb4mh]

@@elvisisacs3955 I think Gavin was trying to say that Protestants also have a form of confession (where a person confesses sins to a man, not just to God privately). He gave examples of protestants who form "accountability" type groups - the members confess their sins to each other and hold each other accountable. But, I don't think the two are comparable. The Protestant version of "confession" is completely different - the pastor/friend would never say "by the ministry of the church, I absolve you of your sins..." Although, I would agree that an accountability group could be a nice and beautiful thing - it's not really comparable to sacramental confession. Gavin is concerned that Catholics do not have assurance of salvation and he is concerned that we are "required" to go to confession if we have committed a mortal sin. Also, he thinks we Catholics experience stress wondering if we are in a state of Grace or not. We may not be certain about our state of Grace - but, we can be absolutely assured that God's love for us endures and is eternal - He will never stop loving us regardless of our sins. AND we have absolute assurance that if we turn to Him with a contrite heart, he will forgive us. We have assurance that if we do commit a mortal sin, we can ask for forgiveness (through the sacrament of confession) and we WILL be forgiven - and Grace will be given! Sacraments are assured channels of Grace. Isn't that comforting? Is that not enough? O, the great gifts of assurance God has given through the church!

[@AJ_Jingco]

​@@gospeltruth6368 As a cradle Catholic Muslims can be SAVED. Anyone who is PURE in Heart will see God.

[@gospeltruth6368]

@@AJ_Jingco You mean someone worshipping a false god is PURE in Heart. Would you extend your charity to idol worshippers who you deem PURE in Heart, too?

[@rach9466]

@@AJ_Jingco so then they will see Jesus, and become a Christian.. is that what you mean? Because Jesus said no one could come to His Father except through Jesus himself.

[@RayEdwards]

Thank you for your gracious defense of Protestantism, and your refreshingly loving demeanor. I found you through my friend @RuslanKD .

[@bmide1110]

I just continue to be so thankful for your voice in this sphere, Gavin. You could almost call Protestants contemplating Catholicism an Unreached Believer Group (playing on the idea of unreached people groups) and you’re one of the few ministers doing so much to engage them so well.

[@johannagarcia9598]

This blessed me much. As someone who grew up as an active Protestant who loves the Lord I have been dealing with a lot of confusion as of late in regards to Catholicism and Protestantism and feeling enticed by certain things I see firsthand in the Catholic Church yet deeply disturbed by others. Thank you for being a much needed answer to prayer. May the Lord bless you and the work you do for Him and His people.

[@ChristTheTruth87]

confessional lutheranism

[@allisvanity...9161]

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV

[@AndrewofVirginia]

Dr. Ortlund makes a bold claim at 8:30 that confession to a priest is categorically essential for the forgiveness of mortal sins in Catholic theology. But he has neglected to mention the possibility of contrition outside of confession. Attrition is the state in which the Church teaches the absolute necessity of confession. But not so with contrition. This is what allows Catholics to believe that non-Catholic Christians can still be saved.

[@AndrewofVirginia]

@@elvisisacs3955 I don't think his claim stands since it is actually false. He clearly said that after mortal sin one is damned without the sacrament of confession according to Catholic teaching. He is trying to exaggerate the ills of catholicism.

[@AndrewofVirginia]

@YAJUN YUAN I'm not making the claim as a matter of fact myself since I am not Catholic, but I do believe this is a distinction that Catholic teaching makes. It allows for the forgiveness of unconfessed (sacramentally) mortal sins if one has perfect contrition.

[@kevinalbright8576]

I’m currently Catholic and love that you made this video. Keep up the good work!

[@benjaminshirley]

I agree 👍 I'm a Catholic convert myself. We need people like Gavin to keep us checked against our presuppositions and reasons for trusting in the truths of the Church.

[@thecatechumen]

Same here.

[@charliego7375]

I recommend you guys look into the debates he’s had and rebuttals to his claims before you give him too much credit. He likes to assert that he’s well read but when you look into the evidence he misses the mark on so many issues only giving parts of the CC doctrines

[@thecatechumen]

@@charliego7375 Comparatively, though, you have to admit that Gavin gets it much better than the vast majority of other Protestants. I finished his video last night, and I only have a few concerns regarding Gavin's rebuttals. Primarily when it comes to the "need" for the Protestant Reformation in light of medieval scandals.

[@joekey8464]

He is also leading a lot of souls astray.

[@changetobecomebetter]

Man, this is awesome. Thanks man.

[@agneschang5234]

Best Protestant response to Cameron's conversion that I've come across. No underhanded gibes or straw-manning of either side, but solid theological arguments and charitable seeking of the Truth. If I weren't already tied down by my philosophy readings and a deep dive into Catholicism (so as not to strawman my own faith), I'd definitely take a look at those book recommendations--maybe a side project after I've learned the Catholic faith better!

[@TruthUnites]

glad you found it useful!

[@nalkarj2840]

Dear Dr. Ortlund, I’m only watching this video a year after you posted it, so you probably won’t see this, but I wanted to send a message. I’m afraid this is one of those “I’m a Catholic and a big fan” messages-I so admire your irenicism and kindness, virtues that I wish more Christians (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, other) had. I’ve been going through something of a faith crisis for the last year or so, so I guess this message is a way to get this off my chest. I’m a Catholic who agrees with most of my church’s doctrines (nearly all the Marian dogmas, prayer for the dead, etc.) but has strong qualms with the role of the papacy (universal jurisdiction more than infallibility, funnily enough!), in light of history; the Treasury of Merit and a lot of those Tridentine doctrines; the clericalism (and mandated clerical celibacy) that I’d argue is the church harming itself; the “state of grace” thing you mention; and some other things. I’ve tried getting over those, reading arguments, etc., but to no avail. I have, meanwhile, a bad case of that Catholic guilt you’re talking about. Meanwhile, I’m sympathetic to Luther on justification (I know exactly what he was going through on the “have I done enough to be saved?” question, what you call the assurance of salvation), to Calvin on some other things (the Eucharist springs to mind), etc. I’m a huge fan of Anglican thinkers (Lewis, of course, but also N.T. Wright and Fleming Rutledge)-indeed, I’d describe my spirituality as more English (including with the English Catholics, e.g., Chesterton and Newman) than Roman or Greek. I’d probably be an Anglican already if an ACNA, Continuing Anglican, or conservative Episcopal parish anywhere around me. (I know I’m not, forgive me, a Baptist or an evangelical.) It’s tough-I feel perpetually in-between, still in my church partially, I must confess, out of inertia. Well, this has been a long comment only tangentially about the video at hand. Forgive me: I considered contacting you through your site but didn’t want to clutter your inbox. All the best, and God bless you and your ministry.

[@TruthUnites]

thanks for sharing all of this -- may the Lord bless you and direct you!

[@nalkarj2840]

@@TruthUnites Thanks much for the reply. I’m hoping for some clarity at some point.

[@LJones-tx6eg]

My brother, who was not raised in the church at all, is the most Godly man I've ever met. In his relationship with God, in his service to God, in his service to his family and to his community...and he is a Baptist Pastor. I am a cradle Catholic that left. I think God recognises the deeply faithful more than the denominations. My Baptist brother saved me...just by watching him. I'm thinking of rejoining the Catholic faith...But my bro is probably the only truly Godly man I've witnessed

[@thecatechumen]

I think this is the FIRST intentionally charitable and thoughtful protestant interaction with Cameron's conversion that I have seen on all of KZbin thus far. Thank you Gavin Ortlund for your careful interactions. It is indeed very helpful for BOTH sides of the argument to hear your thoughts on the subject. God bless.

[@actsapologist1991]

A few notes: @8:38 - It isn't quite the case that dying without going to Confession means you go to Hell. The Catechism (section 1452) states that sincere repentance based on the love of God, with the intention to go to Confession, will remit mortal sins in such an instance of sudden death. @10:07 - OK, what I was wondering here is: Does the "classical" Protestant tradition recognize that there is such a thing as a mortal sin? (That is, a sin which - if committed with sufficient knowledge and volition, scuttles communion with God) If there is such a concept within classical Protestantism.... then it isn't essentially different than Catholicism on the matter. It seems all we're doing is haggling over what counts as one and what you have to do if you commit one. To say are Catholics in a state of anxiety... well, seems presumptive. Does Matt Fradd seem anxious? Plus, the fact that a certain ideology leads to reduced anxiety does not mean it is more true. Universalism and antinomianism would probably produce the least possible anxiety for Christians, but that doesn't mean universalism and antinomianism are true. We cannot say, "This causes anxiety therefor it is false." I think we should base our beliefs on the best evidences for and against them, not upon the feelings they supposedly cause. It might be that Christians CAN lose their salvation and ARE supposed to work out their salvation in fear and trembling, and to live in reverent fear. That's where the discussion needs to be. (I'd also note that this isn't so much about the proper interpretation of James 5, but of John 20.) @14:00 - This goes to a critique which I know I've mentioned to you a few times: When discussing the freedom which a Protestant has to look at the tradition and determine what aligns with Scripture and the form of Christianity - you praise the lack of overarching authority in Protestantism. But when a Catholic points to this exact same thing to propose that Protestantism also suffers from the downsides of individualism, you say there's plenty of authority within Protestantism. It seems one has to choose a lane in drive in it. To think that Protestantism has all the boons of private discernment with NONE of the associated downsides seems unrealistic. They enjoy both the upsides and downsides of it. Just as Catholics enjoy the upsides and downsides of not having it. @22:30 - The argument that Protestantism was necessary because Catholics persecuted non-Catholics would hold more force if Protestants didn't turn around and persecute Catholics. But they did. My people suffered greatly under the holy heels of their enlightened betters. Otherwise stated: If the sordid history of Catholic persecuting Protestants means Catholicism should not be joined today.... what does the sordid history of Protestants persecuting Catholics mean? Is it somehow different when they did it? Or did they not do it, and Nicholas Pieck died of natural causes? @45:58 - If we're talking about difficulties in getting along and reaching communion, it seems we are talking about on-the-ground realities. It is true that the original magisterial Protestants recognized that Catholics had valid baptisms and were Christians. However, the on-the-ground reality is that many, many Protestants don't recognize Catholics as validly Christians - having been taught by their pastors that they are not. This is an obstacle too, right?

[@TruthUnites]

thanks -- just out the door but will try to respond later...

[@TruthUnites]

Just had time to get back to this. Thanks for your always thoughtful comments. A few replies. 1. I understand there are exceptions to mortal sin requiring confession; that is not at odds with what I said. I am simply repeating the language of magisterial teaching, and the exceptions do not detract from my point, so far as I can see. 2. "Does Matt Fradd seem anxious?" Of courage not ALL Catholics are in observable anxiety ALL the time. The concern is with the relative ease with which one can pass from a state of grace, and that this is where the discussion should focus between Catholic and Protestant, not whether we confess sin to human beings or God alone. 3. I am not sure that I "praise the lack of overarching authority in Protestantism" -- not sure what you are referencing. But the general point would be that Protestants have freedom on peripheral matters, but that does not mean there is NO authority in Protestant churches. The idea that "you can believe whatever you want" is not true of Protestantism. Yet it is true we do not yoke the conscience to late accretions like the bodily assumption of Mary. There is no inconsistency here. Freedom on some things is not freedom on everything. 4. Protestant persecution of Catholics is not comparable. I have explained this in my video on the Hussites. Its like comparing Texas to Rhode island. Catholic persecution was also approved by the highest authorities and rooted in Catholic theology. There is no piece of Protestant theology like Unam Sanctam, which claimed the pope has power over the temporal sword, or Ad extirpanda, which legitimized torture. I am not simply criticizing Catholic sins when I talk about persecution, I am criticizing Catholic theology. 5. Not sure why you reference the "on the ground reality" that many Protestants don't think Catholics are Christians. Many others do, and we are not bound by on the ground dynamics, but official theology. The official Protestant view is that the Church of Rome is a church, albeit one beset with errors; you do not say the same of us.

[@actsapologist1991]

@@TruthUnites : I would write lengthy response, elaborating on certain points. But I keep reading and re-reading the statement, mouth agape, that violence against Catholics is not comparable to violence against Protestants. Not comparable. What can I even say?

[@TruthUnites]

@@actsapologist1991 its not comparable. For starters, as I said, it was justified by Catholic theology, which claimed power over the temporal sword, and allowed for torture to extract confessions. I mentioned two specific papal bulls in my last comment. Protestant theology does not have such claims. Then, there is the scale of it. Add up all the inquisitions and crusades against heretical groups, its way bigger than Protestant persecution of Catholics. It's not even close. Historians generally consider the Catholic crusade against the Cathars an example of religious genocide. It is so offensive when Catholics downplay these atrocities.

[@actsapologist1991]

@@TruthUnites : Can you bring yourself to at least say it was bad? Are we... animals?

[@adechalus]

I so appreciate you making this video

[@bernardesm]

Looking back at Cameron's journey towards this decision, I have a feeling he leaned towards the group he felt more loved by. As a protestant this saddens me terribly.

[@jjadiel2011]

Man how I wish I could have a conversation with you. I'm a Religion teacher in a catholic school, and I really appreciate when there is respectful dialogue on these sort of things. Even as a Catholic I don't agree with many views held by Cameron as for why he converted to catholicism in the sense that he might prove those specific reasons wrong and fall into a deep spiritual struggle. Also I thank you so much for being so respectful and for sharing these views which I try to consider as best as I can since I also have non-catholic students and my best friend is protestant as well. God bless you🙏 Even though I don't agree with everything you say I thank you for articulating your thoughts and giving me a true deep insight into protestant thinking

[@TheDjcarter1966]

Its true Cameron seemed very logical in his process...I converted as well and will admit it was a logical process but, and hopefully Cameron got to this point, you have to let logic go and let the Holy Spirit led you to take that final leap of faith and not rely on your reason and intellect alone....good point

[@dylonbeamer]

Man, Dr. Ortlund, you are a pastor's pastor. Hearing your approach to difficult conversations is a balm to my soul. Thank you for your faithfulness in ministry. I know you were planning to be away from KZbin during this time. I hope you have a restful Thanksgiving with your family.

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks friend. We are heading up into the mountains for a few days for the holiday. Looking forward to unplugging.

[@Gooman130]

Thank you so much for responding to this Gavin. It's done wonders to calm my worries. I just discovered you the other day when I heard about Cameron's departure so I listened through his conversation with Matt Fradd, and then your video with him about the papacy. Currently just flying through your content because I love your solid logical processing and charitable attitude. Very grateful to have discovered this channel!

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks, so glad the videos have been useful!

[@allisonbr1327]

Gavin, I greatly respect you and the ways in which you went about this video. I am a Protestant currently seeking to become Catholic, and I just wanted to share what I took issue with most in your video. When you discussed mortal sin, you almost made it seem like Protestants don't want their congregants to know how serious certain sin is - you mentioned contraception, for example, and implied it is a bit ridiculous to tell people that its use severely separates them from God. However, I'm deeply thankful that Catholics do share the severity of these sin issues. If I'm in sin, if I'm separated from God, if I'm mistakenly believing something I'm doing is okay when it's not, I want to know about it. I want to know that things like contraception do grieve God, and that they do harm me. Since adopting NFP my marriage has been completely transformed, and I am so deeply thankful to the Catholic Church for not being afraid to talk about these issues and to tell people just how serious they are. Paradoxically, I haven't experienced that as burdensome - rather, it's set me free to live the life He calls me to in greater clarity and truth. Thank you for your perspective, always!

[@derekmchardy8730]

Truly excellent thanks Gavin: historically informed, theologically astute, pastorally warm and gracious in tone. May this presentation be a blessing to viewers of whichever perspective.

[@KristiLEvans1]

Wow! Well said!

[@KristiLEvans1]

The divide is significant. Thank you for being so gracious while not sugar-coating the profound differences between the Roman system and classical Protestantism.

[@TheCounselofTrent]

Thanks for the video Gavin. I am curious, at 30:23 you say it's "not responsible" to enter or leave Protestantism without reading the best voices on both sides. And I do agree viewing both sides is important, but I also think a person's conversion can be justified even if they don't do that. For example, do you feel the same about someone becoming Christian? Would it be "irresponsible" to become Christian if you never read the best defenders of atheism and/or critics of Christianity? Or could the Holy Spirit simply convict them enough to justify conversion without doing that (which could apply to Protestantism or Catholicism, I suppose). Anyways, curious on your thoughts and looking forward to our debate in March!

[@uzomaobasi3767]

I guess a preliminary though would be that Cameron seemed to highlight how much he is following the evidence and put quite some emphasis on it. So it is reasonable to expect that given that, you would avail yourself of the best of Protestantism, which from some of the clips Gavin played, it seems like he did not. I probably would not expect someone who got convicted by the HS in a context very different to apologetical arguments and such to have read the best of either side and so i wouldn’t say in that case that, they were being irresponsible for becoming Christian. Just my unprocessed thoughts

[@TruthUnites]

Hey Trent, good to hear from you. I certainly agree the Holy Spirit can bring about conversion swiftly, with relatively little intellectual processing. The focus of this video is an intellectual conversion where someone is watching KZbin videos or listening to podcasts over a period of time, but not necessarily reading books or engaging the best representatives of each side. Yes, I'd certainly say the same for that kind of conversion with regard to Christianity. In fact, I think I gave the example of someone leaving Christianity without reading Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, etc. I think that is not responsible simply because we should consider each view at its best when we are making such a decision. I'd add that if someone is publicly representing a particular position, it is especially important to engage its most accurate/capable proponents, at least some of them. So it seems to me, let me know if you think that is off base. Perhaps we are envisioning different scenarios, and thus not necessarily disagreeing.

[@TheCounselofTrent]

@@TruthUnites We probably don't disagree that much and I didn't get a chance to watch your whole video. I'm not sure where to draw the line on how much a person needs to read to have an intellectually responsible conversion. You could spend your whole life reading works defending Protestantism, Catholicism, atheism, etc. My biggest concern would be that it seems like there should be symmetry between the amount of research we expect someone to do before they leave our faith vs. the amount we expect before they convert to our faith (otherwise we seem opportunistic). Something I'll have to think about more and perhaps you could address it in future content.

[@TruthUnites]

@@TheCounselofTrent yes, I agree I do not know where the exact cut-off point is, either. Only God knows a person's heart, and where they are coming from. You raise a fair point that our standards should go both ways for such conversions. Yes, I am sure we will have a chance to talk more, Lord willing.

[@pigetstuck]

@@TruthUnites If someone is converting to my perspective, they are permitted to read half the number of books regularly required. If it is an opposing perspective, double the usual requirement.🙂

[@Norbingel]

I'm rewatching this and one thing that Cameron said that absolutely stunned me was saying that he learned that the Old and New Testament were tied together. I was raised 20 years as a Catholic and so was my wife. Went to Catholic school even. Only learned this when I read the Bible myself cover to cover. Heard it taught many times over in evangelical churches and read it in evangelical sources.

[@natebozeman4510]

I've been looking forward to this video ever since I saw his announcement. Love your work Dr. Ortlund. You're doing great things for us who aren't scholars on church history! I'm working on it, but there's so much material to get into

[@TruthUnites]

Thanks Nate! So glad it's been of use.

[@Couragedearheart445]

Excellent video! Thank you so much, Gavin! Re: recognizing Catholics as brothers: my husband grew up nominal Catholic in Brazil, a predominantly Catholic nation, and then actually decided to follow Christ in a Protestant church. It actually took me (raised in a Protestant home) to convince him that there are true believers among both Catholics and Protestants (I pointed to one of his favorite singers, Matt Maher, as an example). Sadly, It was something he didn’t think he saw in his life among Catholicism. It’s all-too-easy to write off people as “the other side,” especially when we see people “convert,” though we gather around the same Savior. I love your diplomacy, charity, and honesty. Thank you so much for your work!

[@TruthUnites]

thank you! Glad it was helpful! And great point about how easy it is to write off the other side.

[@dartheli7400]

In your opinion, what are the criteria for being a „true believer“?

[@lindafogarty3924]

Thank-you so much for this! We needed a video like this, and what a well done video it is.

[@TruthUnites]

Glad it was helpful!

[@JonAdamsMinistries]

This was a much much better and more thought through video than my response video. It was helpful indeed.

[@TruthUnites]

glad you found it helpful!

[@tun6006]

Yeah this sure was worlds better than yours was. Some of the most un-Christian conduct I've ever seen coming from you.

[@KristiLEvans1]

Mine wouldn’t have been terribly helpful. I watched Cameron for a couple of years. This was not at all surprising, but he had no foundation in real, Biblical theology. You have my sympathy.

[@gch8810]

@@KristiLEvans1 What a load of hogwash. How do you know what level of knowledge he had regarding theology. The fact of the matter is that you don't. You merely think he did and voice that as being the primary reason that he converted. In your mind, if everyone knew their Biblical theology, then they wouldn't become Catholic. Well I hate to break it to you, but many Catholics know their Bible and still disagree with you.

[@KristiLEvans1]

@@gch8810 what’s “hogwash”, specifically? Do you believe that the entire rest of the world can’t see that your magisterium is doing handstands, as regards theology?

[@robbchristopher158]

Its a very sad day. I almost became Roman Catholic or Eastern Catholic. Thankfully I was able to slow down and get back on track just in the nick of time and not forget the valuable things that I've learned of in protestantism. I've come to love the Episcopal Church. I get the best of both worlds the Protestant and Catholic both.

[@daynehaworth9258]

Thanks for your views. Excellent as always. Have you thought about loading your videos on Facebook?

[@vngelicath1580]

I think a lot of the frustration on the Protestant side came from the fact that (whether merited or not), Cameron often gave off the impression of not giving Protestantism a fair shake over the years. Placing strawmen of his (Evangelical/Protestant) camp against "steelmen" of the Roman party. That's why so many of us are grateful for the work you do Dr. Ortlund, presenting a more thoughtfully nuanced and historically rich approach to "Protestantism."

[@panicstation7]

👑

[@pigetstuck]

and also of not understanding the Catholic positions

[@vngelicath1580]

@@pigetstuck Yeah, I thought it was particularly interesting how he characterized the difference between Catholic and Protestant approaches to Sacerdotal Confession: Protestant -- "you have to confess directly to God" Catholic -- "you _get_ to confess to a priest if you want to." I find this rich as a Lutheran since our entire Reformation was started over corruptions within the practice of Confession. The way he described the Catholic position is actually the Lutheran approach ("all may, _none must_ .., some should"). The Catholic view is that you *have to* for certain types of Sin, making it a heavy burden rather than Gospel assurance for the participant struggling with guilt.

[@pigetstuck]

@@vngelicath1580 "confess your sins one to another" The bankruptcy in some protestant churches makes one very bent toward conversion to Catholicism.

[@vngelicath1580]

@@pigetstuck Tbf, that's not a great sedes doctrinae for sacramental confession (to a priest) -- I would say John 20/Matthew 28 are clearer foundations for the exercise of the keys. "Confess your sins to one another" is more _consolation of the brethren_

[@Sonnyjune69]

We need more people like you speaking about true classical Protestantism. It’s severely lacking and people love to misjudge Protestantism.

[@j.knight9335]

Which sect out of the 25,000+ is "classical"? Protestantism is non-Christian absurdity and leads to Hell.

[@thyikmnnnn]

@J. Knight There aren't 25'000 protestant groups. There are probably about 10. Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Presbyterianism , Baptist, Methodisms, Pentascostalism being the major ones.

[@j.knight9335]

@@thyikmnnnn You can look this stuff up, you don't have to guess.

[@thyikmnnnn]

@@j.knight9335 What's your source ?

[@j.knight9335]

@@rach9466 Not if you have a basic historical knowledge of Christendom.

[@estebanpayan7296]

My comment on Gavin’s first appeal. His analogy says that Protestants are not all the same. Then when criticizing the sacrament of confession, he says that Protestants have assured salvation. Not all Protestants believe in assured salvation. The difficult thing about talking about or with Protestants about anything, is you cannot assume you know what they believe because it is different for each individual and church.

[@MrPeach1]

I noticed that also. He can use that defence for every teaching since Protestantism is all over the map. They can't agree on a definition of Sola Scriptura. Dr Gavin offers his but other Protestants don't have to accept his definition.

[@estebanpayan7296]

@@MrPeach1 You’re right to point out that Protestants can’t agree on what sola scriptura means, nor sola fide.

[@ProfYaffle]

Cameron is still our brother, as are many Catholics, that is evidenced by their fruit

[@nametheunknown_]

Appreciate your thoughts, Gavin, thanks!

[@stanleyjohnson8503]

I can't tell you just how thankful I am for your ministry and channel. Please be encouraged. God is speaking through you to bring wisdom, unity, peace and closeness with Christ. Thanks

[@TruthUnites]

Thank you Stanley!

[@nickswoboda6647]

Thanks once again for being the voice we all need!

[@examinetruth5392]

Wanting to receive the Eucharist really makes you change your life, wrestling with sins in our life is part of the Christian life and I would rather be uncomfortable in truth than ignorant in sin. And the Church truly is there for us to internalize the Gospel! - "so that through them, you may participate in the divine nature" Peter

[@beckyp8369]

I really like Cameron and I am glad he found a home in the church. He has done a lot for Christianity and seems like a really good and honest guy. However, you are correct about Bayes and Bayesian priors. It takes some time to really understand it. He is using an uninform prior at 50%, which may not be appropriate as you point out as we have 2000 yrs of data. There are a lot of different priors you can use. With any model, if you don't set your priors correctly you get garbage in = garbage out. FWIW I was a traditional Catholic and I think I will be converting to Protestantism fo an array of reasons. Your videos have helped me tremendously.

[@teresagamache1636]

I am Protestant and my church just finished a long sermon series on the Old Testament and we were asked to read the whole thing! Don’t think my church has separated from it!

[@SotS1689]

This is exactly the video that needed to be made at exactly the right time. Thank you, Gavin.

[@jasonbilbro6373]

Great reflection/feedback as always. Given all the people Cameron has interviewed, his comments displayed a surprising degree of ignorance regarding the faith he claimed to profess. The OT comment specifically made me wonder what kind of churches he has attended.

[@brando3342]

I came to the comments to see if anyone was as completely blown away by his comments on the Old Testament. Goodness gracious 😬

[@ProfYaffle]

Especially since Gavin sat down and explained everything as Gavin does so well. Cameron is still a brother in Christ

[@jasonbilbro6373]

That’s an excellent perspective.

[@User_Happy35]

Yes, that old testament comment was so weird. I had just assumed someone with his platform would have had a better grasp of his own faith.

[@anglicanaesthetics]

It's frustrating in part because I don't think Cameron has thought through the full implications of consenting to the magisterium. You have to consent, for example, to the execution of Jan Hus and concede that forgiveness of sins was given for participating in the crusade against the Hussites. And that's just one example.

[@duckymomo7935]

Cameron was wishy-washy on every issue - he didn’t even know why he believed what he believed

[@lkae4]

@@duckymomo7935 We should not insult or speak without tact. We need to realize the danger of this branch of Christianity called mere Christianity. It's dangerous and many of our church members are in it, whether they know it or not.

[@anglicanaesthetics]

@@australopithecusafarensis8927 Nope. God's command to kill the Canaanites was directed towards gross evil like child sacrifice, bestiality, murder, etc. The conquest of the Hussites was a conquest of fellow Christians who preached that the church didn't have a right to use the sword against other Christians.

[@Ericviking2019]

No where in the catechism does it say that the Church is sinless? That is a bizarre concept. Many atrocities have been committed by and in the name of all the world religions., and continue to this day.

[@mnmmnm925]

Out of all the possible examples you choose an execution? Bruh who cares lol

[@jdwright3277]

I learn so much from your clear, intelligent teaching.

[@taylore22]

You have truly helped with big questions I have on church history and have been a great example of how to be gracious with our words and seasoned with salt. Praise God for your channel brother! I pray He would continue to bless it in Jesus name amen! ✝️

[@prime_time_youtube]

Best video ever! You have been my biggest intellectual support right now. God bless you!

[@republiccooper]

I didn't leave Catholicism. I followed Jesus. That was away from the Catholic institution. & I pray to always follow him wherever he lead me.

[@KM-zn3lx]

Me2! Where did you go for Sundays now?

[@republiccooper]

@@KM-zn3lx Saturday evenings with a non denominational church where the word is taught and the gifts of the Spirit are in operation.

[@MarcoTrusso]

What an amazing response, thanks Gavin for all the work you do. I felt exactly the same watching Cameron’s explanation of his conversion. For example, at one point he mentioned how, as a photographer, he felt deeply attracted by Catholic churches, whereas Protestant churches are just “ugly”. I was shocked! Has he ever heard of St Paul’s Cathedral in London? How is he not aware of the thousands of beautiful Protestant churches in America, the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, and many other historically Protestant Countries? Unfortunately, for a lot people, their only exposure to Protestantism comes down to modern, highly emotional, Charismatic-like churches.

[@elizabeth.annrose]

Definitely a fair point! I have a background in conservative Presbyterianism and am currently Episcopal in Catholic RCIA.

[@charliego7375]

@@elizabeth.annrose what do you mean episcopal RCIA?

[@elizabeth.annrose]

@@charliego7375 I am a confirmed Episcopal seeking to convert to Catholicism via RCIA. Hope this clarifies.

[@charliego7375]

@@elizabeth.annrose yes that makes sense. Thank you and may God bless you on your journey welcome home sister.

[@elizabeth.annrose]

@@charliego7375 thank you so much! I love Catholicism! God bless you!✝️🙏

[@MeredithTripp-tn7su]

Gavin, your videos have given me so much clarity. I was very close to converting to Catholicism because there are beautiful and true aspects that I had not experienced in Protestant church experience but on the other hand so many very clearly Roman influences that I could not find reason for anywhere in the Bible. You are one of the first Protestant apologists to explain the history and have such a beautiful balance in your approach that is kind and generous yet rooted in history and theology. Thank you so much for these videos, I will be purchasing your books! God bless :)

[@TJMcCarty]

Thank you so much for making your videos. They are so needed right now. I'm a Protestant who sadly never knew about anything regarding church history or why the Reformation happened. It's so easy to be drawn into Catholicism without knowing why the Reformation even happened.

[@koppite9600]

You don't reform a healthy church. Weren't we promised a healthy church forever? Didn't the "reformers" start their own churches? Did they agree among themselves?

[@countryboyred]

@@koppite9600it was definitely not a “healthy” church. Burning people at the stake, indulgences, the papacy asserting its dominance. There were many many problems within Catholicism. That’s why the counter reformation was held.

[@qodesmith520]

I appreciate this video. I think it helps a lot of us out here who are processing Cameron's announcement. It also shed's light on the subject that otherwise wouldn't have had an opportunity to shine.

[@manuelcardelliirusta3000]

Gavin, you are the man. You are my guide in this issues, God permits. Keep it on, and write books. Blessings from Argentina from a young boy here.

[@TruthUnites]

glad to be connected to you Manuel!

[@apostolicapologetics4829]

13:30 The difference is, catholic councils and documents hold authoritative weight along with the Holy Scriptures whereas the protestant documents such as the 39 articles are granted authority by those who believe it is in accord with the Scriptures. The Catholic documents are authoritative in there very essence not just granted authority by the individual who sees them as being faithful tradition to the Sacred Scriptures.

[@misterkittyandfriends1441]

Catholics accept a unified teaching from authoritative sources, as long as those sources do not contradict scripture - scripture is still a measuring stick, but questions not answered in scripture can have authoritative answers. (Eg does the bible say this cannot be so) Protestants do not have a unified teaching and require that any authoritative teaching be backed by an interpretation of scripture (eg.where is it in the bible) I don't find the protestant formation any more resilient against error given the acceptance of private judgment (eg schism) within protestants.

[@thebannings6176]

I absolutely agree with your analogy with NYC. If protestantism had remained Classical and not become what it is today I'd see alot less evangelical mom friends leaving. Thank you so much for your work

[@Christian-ut2sp]

The disappointing thing for me was the lack of engagement with classical Protestantism, Dr Jordan Cooper expressed the same concern.

[@haronsmith8974]

Why does everyone keep saying this? He literally had TheOtherPaul, Gavin, and even James white on his channel. Hes had their views, found them non convincing and converted.

[@Christian-ut2sp]

@@haronsmith8974 that discussion with James White actually demonstrated how unfamiliar Cameron was at the time with his own side, and that didn’t seem to change much over time. Notice I criticised the ‘lack’ of engagement, I didn’t say he didn’t engage at all. There was engagement, but it was far too little.

[@duckymomo7935]

Cameron didn’t believe in anything, he was never “Protestant” to begin with

[@HERObyPROXY]

I have to agree. The discussion with James White really did highlight the limited engagement he's had so far. Personally, it appeared to me that Cameron's investigation of Catholicism has been more about the intellect catching up with the heart than anything else. He's already found good friends and mentors in the Catholic Church and so his conversion was always a matter of time more than anything else.

[@78LedHead]

@@duckymomo7935 He's extremely cringey. When I saw him posting his vax papers online, I knew. Very cringey young man looking for all the wrong things.

[@joelv24]

Dr.Gavin , your videos are truly a blessing and very informative . as someone who comes from a pentecostal background who are basically extremely bad at history and good at seeing the smaller picture and accusing the other side , you help me open my mind to great extend without having hatred to our friends in rome . I really love your videos , I usually suggest your videos since they are less bashing and more of open criticism with love and putting stone in the opponents shoe . i look forward to hear and learn more from you God bless your ministry as well as your Fam . Love from India ❤

[@TruthUnites]

thanks, so glad they have been helpful!

[@pigetstuck]

Have you ever considered starting a seminary? The balanced and irenic approach would be a breath of fresh air for the Christian world.

[@victormossiii1196]

As someone who converted to Catholicism ..... Becoming a Catholic Christian, I appreciate your positions, arguments, and charity to all of us who are other traditions. It took a long process of many years to become a Catholic from an Evangelical. I appreciate Christians from all traditions: Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant traditions. Even as a Catholic Christian, I know that God is working through all of us who hold Jesus as their Lord! I still love and respect many traditions in Protestantism. I still love the different men and women that God is using in leadership of churches. My problem is "slimeballs" who have been very divisive: I will refrain from saying their names. I love how you, Ruslan, and other brothers' and sisters' who live charity and can come together in unity. By the way, I am planning to read some of the book recommendations and your book in order to widen my view. I want to learn more about Branch View Theory to know more about it.

[@thinkforchrist]

Gavin, I love what you are doing here. You model the kind of thoughtful and reflective faith that is so desperately needed in the Evangelical Church today. I recently started my own channel to serve a similar purpose. Keep it up brother.

[@joelblack2591]

I think deep down Cameron had always wanted to convert to Catholicism, whether he was aware of it or not. He often spoke of approaching the issue objectively, but he also expressed how he had always been drawn and attracted to the external beauty of Catholicism. Unfortunately, this leads me to think that he wasn’t quite as objective in his assessment as he had hoped or claimed to be. Listen, Catholic cathedrals are absolutely beautiful and stunning, but so are Buddhist temples. If your starting point in evaluating truth is based on aesthetics, that’s a very dangerous position to navigate from.

[@snaphaan5049]

Yeah, I realized this as well. No big surprise. I think he was just looking for someone to validate his choice.

[@apracity7672]

Why can't the same exact thing be said with you rejecting Catholicism and staying in your Protestant bubble?

[@joelblack2591]

@@apracity7672 because I don’t base my belief on subjective qualities like aesthetics. I have no problem attending a church service in a basement if the message being preached is truth. Beauty not grounded in truth is at best, meaningless, or at worst, deceptive.

[@apracity7672]

@@joelblack2591 Do you subjectively prefer Protestantism and for that reason, deep down, is why you reject Catholicism? Emotion based decisions, rather than an objective analysis of the data? If I'm wrong, you should be able to clearly explain why Catholicism is wrong and why Protestantism is objectively true.

[@joelblack2591]

@@apracity7672 Do I subjectively prefer Protestantism? I mean, I prefer any church that teaches biblical truth. But Not all churches perceived to be part of “Protestantism” are biblical. For example, I would not attend any church that teaches prosperity gospel or “name it and claim it” doctrine. If Catholicism abandoned its unbiblical or questionable teachings/doctrine, then I’d be fine being part of the Catholic Church.

[@Ttcopp12rt]

What is sad is that Cameron alleged that he was only following the evidence, but the evidence that he was presented was AGAINST catholicism being biblical/historical/true. If you recall, Cameron hinged his decision on the Papacy. But keep mind that Cameron said he was working out to what degree annihilationism is true or false - this was bothering him. What's the point? The point is that people like James White informed Cameron that once he accepts Rome - he doesn't get to decide if annihilationism is true - Rome decides that for him. Such a move would only be counterintuitive in this case. Also keep in mind that Cameron hosted a debate between Jimmy Akin and Steven Nemes. In that debate (which was about who was the Rock of Matthew 16?) Jimmy said that he WOULD NOT appeal to the church fathers to make his case and shortly later he agreed with Steven Nemes that the church Fathers differed on who or what the Rock is. What the point? The point is that many if our Catholic friends are adamant that Matthew 16 clearly teaches that Peter is the Rock who was commission by Jesus. Yet, even according to Jimmy Akins - it's not clear-cut and there are many different opinions held by the church Fathers. I bring these points up simply to demonstrate that the evidence before Cameron's eyes would only lead him away from Rome - not to it. So, the fact that he made the move shows that he ignored the evidence and actually went against it.

Thank you very much for addressing this, Gavin.

[@TheNathanMac]

The confession of sin point: I’m a youth pastor in a Charismatic Anglican Church, came into the church as evangelical Baptist roots, but reading Church history I was very tempted by Catholicism. And so I started digging deeper into Anglicanism, and many of the things that drawing me to Catholicism is found in Anglicanism and the right view of the history tends to kill the straw men (Henry VIII for instance). We have the sacramental act of Absolution which is up to the congregant as to whether the priest should exercise this. It’s very similar to confession and there is something beautiful about the priestly prayer that is delivered really does feel ‘final’

[@BryceCarmony]

Anglican is the church founded by King Henry so he could get a divorce right? I'm Catholic that's the church founded by Christ

[@TheNathanMac]

@@BryceCarmony hey bud thanks for your comment, but no, the Anglican Church was around long before King Henry. In around 1067 we have the king write to the pope to remind him that the king is the head of the Anglican Church rather than the pope. Only 20 odd years after the great schism. the Magna Carta also says the same, both documents pre-date the reformation. There’s some lose evidence (because of archeological findings) that the Christian faith was in England before 70ad, but more solid evidence in the 4th Century. So, yes while the Protestant Anglican movement was triggered partly by Henry, the Church in England, which has always been Called Anglican, has existed for a long, long time :)

[@mcars100]

Remember all denominations fit what little truth they have from the catholic catholic that’s why the Catholic Church is called coming home and entering the fullness of faith and truth

[@mcars100]

@@BryceCarmony Also steal church property

[@mcars100]

@@TheNathanMac England had been catholic twice as long as Protestant the foundation of the Protestant faith was built on adultry and thief of Church property

[@thecuriouschristiangal]

This was such a helpful episode. I've been exploring catholicism for about a year now and just attended my first mass. It was an awesome experience. However, you make a good point about studying further early protestant traditions. I was raised a protestant and have been a faithful follower of Jesus for many years. I plan on reading some of those books you suggest.

[@oldmovieman7550]

I never got the sense that Cameron was particularly rooted in his beliefs, and so I'm not all that surprised.

[@asggerpatton7169]

He was just too rational. He couldnt keep his protestant beliefs unquestionable.

[@RuslanKD]

Great break down! Would love to hear you break down the branch theory more. I’ve been saying something similar after coming back from Jerusalem

[@TruthUnites]

Thank you! I am hoping to do another video on this....

[@gospeltruth6368]

You are next in line! Keep romancing Trent Horn...and the catholic hawks will descend on you. Will you survive their onslaught?

[@Jonathan_214]

Would love a video from you Ruslan to get your perspective on his conversion or even having Cameron on your show.

[@annapobst]

Love and appreciate you greatly! Thank you for your bright and sharp insight 🙏

[@rachaelmantelli]

New to your channel and am finding these videos so helpful and clarifying! I appreciate your charitable responses and your commitment to "maintain bridges" with Catholics, as opposed to shunning them and their theology as a whole.

[@TruthUnites]

so glad to hear that!

[@timp7412]

Thank you so much for your explanation.

[@jake6132]

As a Catholic, I appreciate what you're trying to do with breaking down caricatures of Protestantism. This helps to humanize each other in these conversations. One challenge I have with your view is that Protestantism is a moving target. While Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc. May have had some beautiful things to say, they still aren't unified doctrinally. The beauty of Catholicism is that doctrinally we are unified. Sure, there are dissident theologians, priests, believers, etc., but at least all our beliefs can be found in one place. There is not, say, a Catechism for Protestantism. This was a point that Cameron brought up is thathe sees it as simple and practical that the sum total of Catholic belief, fleshed out w/ citations, can be found in one book. And as far as confession to a priest goes, I do understand the anxiety that can arise about losing one's salvation. This scrupulosity is a real thing but isn't limited to just Catholics. Jimmy Akin has a good treatment of this idea in one of his videos. If you want to go deeper into this idea, you should read the following books: "I Believe in Love", "The Way of Trust and Love", and "Spiritual Childhood". These are all on the theology of St Therese of Lisieux, a doctor of the Church. I've found her teachings on the Gospel to be of great help in this realm of anxiety over sin. Peace.

[@YanoPratt]

As a former Catholic, I am concerned that this conversion will deeply affect his family. It’s my opinion that this should be done as a family or not at all. We’re talking about different expressions within the greater Christian church supposedly, so why is it so important as to cause a family rift? This is extremely selfish on Cameron’s part if his wife is as set against it as Cameron says she is. What will the kids do now? Attending different churches as a Christian family is ridiculous.

[@jake6132]

@@YanoPratt These are good points and Cameron mentioned how difficult it's been on his family. I think that the error in your response is that he isn't judt changing from one form of Christian expression to another. Catholicism claims to possess the full deposit of faith. There's an exclusivity in Catholicism which Gavin mentions in the video. Cameron believes, and I would agree, that he believes that the Catholic faith IS the true faith. It wasn't like he changed his favorite style of music from rap to rock. This is about Truth, and the Truth is Jesus.

[@YanoPratt]

@@jake6132 Thanks for the reply and happy thanksgiving. Catholicism is rich in history, beautiful, and exclusive, but the belief that other mainstream Christian denominations are not also about Jesus is incorrect and extreme. Catholicism should not view itself as so different that it would strain the covenant of an already Christian family. It is as though Cameron’s wife is not a real Christian until she also joins the church, and he is therefore justified causing turmoil in his family. This is condescending, and I understand why his wife would be hurt. I’ve been on both sides of this aisle and know that there are many deeply committed beautiful Christians in each expression, and Cameron knows that too. It is very distressing to me that he would make this change without his family - though I realize I don’t have the full story. Thank you for the conversation.

[@jake6132]

@@YanoPratt blessed Thanksgiving to you also. A good Catholic would (and should) never say that a Protestant isn't a Christian. That seems to me more of a Protestant problem, that of calling Catholics non-Christians. That's my experience at least. We Catholics would claim, however, that we possess the full truth of what Christ intended, just as I would imagine many Protestants would claim that they have the fullest expressions of Christ's intentions for His Church. After all, how we live flows from what we believe. You must have left Catholicism due to some perceived lack or something more fulfilling elsewhere. You made that judgment based on that data. Cameron did the same. The added complexity is that his wife did not follow him, at least not yet. This has to difficult especially since he's a public figure. The good here is that he is still following Christ and thus, will not be left abandoned. I think viewing Christian denoms. as different expressions is a deep error. Jesus was concerned with the Truth. He prayed that we might all be one. He lamented his little ones not being gathered under His wings. Christ wants us unified in Spirit and in Truth. Christianity was never meant to be like ethnicities, all with our unique flavors. There is room for some of that in Catholicism, but the Truth is the Truth despite culture. No matter what, we must conform to God's Truth, not according to preferences.

[@reetgoodministries1273]

Hey Jake. If you would like to see a moving target - Read the Council of Trent then Vatican 1 then Vatican 2.

[@rhwinner]

Such a calm, thoughtful, logical approach to apologetics. No one was condemned to hell or labeled a heretic. We need more of that in the KZbin space. In the end logic, not animus, rules the day.

[@garrethaines1995]

There's a good chance I'd be Orthodox or Catholic if it wasn't for the work you've been doing Gavin so thank you

[@TruthUnites]

glad it's been helpful!

[@Compulsive-Elk7103]

It would be better for your salvation if you were Catholic or Orthodoxy than Protestantism

[@derrickcarson]

@@Compulsive-Elk7103 Where did you find this information? Who told you this?

[@adamguy33]

​​@@Compulsive-Elk7103i know many ex Catholic members who never got the gospel preached to them in a Catholic church and didn't even get saved or acquire salvation until they left. People who grew up in Catholicism and latter left all say the same thing. The Catholic church is deep down is paganism sprinkled with Christianity. Thousands upon thousands of ex Catholics all say the same thing. People are saved inside the Catholic church not because of their dictrine , but in spite of them

[@CAMcCoy]

Gavin, once again your irenic approach coupled with your unflinching stance is a blessing to the entire Church, (of all stripes). Two brief suggestions. One is what I believe is a very good primer for those who know little about Church History, and that is Gerald Bray’s “The Church”. The other, is not so much a theological work as a sociological one, but one which has very real import in this whole discussion and that is Sociologist, Reginald Bibby’s “Sociology of the Church”. In this book, Bibby accounts for many of the non-theological factors which keep folk in one denomination or another.

[@GospelSimplicity]

To add two sources: John Williamson Nevin, Mystical Presence (eucharistic theology), and TF Torrance, Incarnation and Atonement (robust soteriology)

[@luisr5577]

Thanks so much for this video, Dr. Ortlund!