Catholicism & Orthodoxy w/ Erick Ybarra

[@OrthodoxBrethren3]

As an Orthodox Christian I love pints and I love listening to Erick

[@rosiegirl2485]

I am going to be painfully honest. Erick speaks so far above my intelligence, but, he really helped me understand some of the early difficulties the church had to deal with. I realize that I seriously, underestimate what this beautiful church of ours has gone through for 2000 years! I cant tell you how many times I hung my hat on the statement "before the reformation, we were all Catholic!" Minus the Orthodox split. As though it was somehow much easier to defend being Catholic, then modern times. Boy was I wrong! Thankfully we have these big thinkers, like Erick, to help us "kitchen table" thinkers, to really feel confident in knowing that we are in the one true church, of our dear Lord! Thank you Matt and Erick! 💠

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

This is exactly the problem with the Rad trad side. It was never a utopia in the church. We have always been in the end times

[@konterrevolutionbeginnt1457]

The church has always been under attack, and it has seen even worse times than this... however, the real issue plaguing the church today is that it can't identify its enemies and that it has been infiltrated by a homosexual cabal...

[@LM-ix7pk]

As a catholic, I agree. The Church has always been in conflict, even since her earliest days. It wasn’t that we were all 100% unified at one point and then suddenly things went south. I find that many radical Catholics oversimplify our history like this

[@gideondavid30]

What does that mean in practical terms, the "one true church"? Does that mean everybody outside of the church is going to hell regardless of what they do believe or not believe? If they are not going to hell, then what is saving them?

[@teresad7102]

@@gideondavid30 the mercy of God

[@doulos44]

Glad to see Ybarra outside of a debate context and really get to know him as a genuine, warm and humble person, as opposed to some of the uncharitable caricatures I’ve seen.

[@Steveorino123]

do you mean the uncharitable characters or the uncharitable characters who try to foist off an uncharitable caricature of the great Erik Ibarra? The man has a mind like a steel trap. He can hold an idea clear in his mind in the face of a firestorm of hysterical baloney like none that I’ve ever seen. Thank you Erik for your steadfast and gentlemanly conduct.

[@aterrt8523]

As someone who was a cradle Roman Catholic all the way through Confirmation and ventured into Eastern Orthodoxy later on in life, I will say that both have an Achilles heel. Ultimately, I find solace in Hebrews 13:17-19. All schisms within the Apostolic Churches undoubtedly stained them all in some way. That being said, the answer isn’t Protestantism. You stay in communion with your Bishop, maintain your sacramental, liturgical, and prayer life; trusting in the grace of God. Pray for our hierarchy, as ultimately, it is they that will be held accountable for ecclesiastical matters. I have since then decided to reconcile myself with the Church I was brought up in, because honestly, the polemics are exhausting and distract me from focusing on Christ.

[@_Healing_Spirit_]

Erick Ybarra is such a wonderful person and a crazy good Apologist for Catholicism. The "Orthobro" community is slandering him but still he is talking with respect about the Eastern Orthodox Church, that is the spirit of God working in him. God bless him and his family🕊 Halleluyah Amen

[@bethanyann1060]

Totally agree. How anyone could be mean to Erick is beyond me. Such a class act.

[@MajorasTime]

@@bethanyann1060 It's because Orthodox are converting to Catholicism because of him

[@diegobarragan4904]

Exposing contradiction and lies spoken by Erik is not slander. Ubi Petrus has multiple videos on it.

[@bethanyann1060]

@@diegobarragan4904 I’ve seen them slander him and assume bad intentions on his part. Also they make fun of his appearance.

[@nuzzi6620]

@@bethanyann1060 Ybarra constantly patronizes Orthodox and dismisses those who disagree with him as uneducated… reeks of pride, but you don’t smell it.

[@Bernadette613]

This took me two days to get through. I had to rewind and re-listen a few times, Wow. Erick is a treasure of the Church! What a great, honest, vulnerable and holy interview. It’s so easy to critique the Church (apparently throughout history), and yet there is no where for Catholics to go especially when the dogma and practice seem divided. Erick represents the struggle so well, and yet, gives me hope that we’ll be led to the Truth…as we continually are! The best quote I heard was from Hector Molina when I asked “how do I evangelize to ex-Catholics who are too hurt by the Church?” he said “don’t leave Peter because of Judas.” 🤯 Even though Peter was imperfect, he asked for forgiveness and tried again. This Church is not perfect but it is Christ that makes us holy. However, we have to be constantly aware of our imperfections and constantly asking for forgiveness and trying again tomorrow. Fortitude at its best. P.S. Hallow is AWESOME! The best way to get daily scripture and pray the rosary! Changed my prayer life.

[@MajorasTime]

Your comment is so wholesome. God bless you sister. Please continue to remain strong in your catholic faith 😇 🙏

[@reformedcatholic8689]

You’re right on how Erick “represents the struggle so well.” He’s brilliant and can definitely stand with many of the “big name” Orthodox channels but Erick’s disposition is saintly. Honestly I’m convicted by how he comports himself. The wisdom throughout these videos is incredibly pastors for an “academic” like Ibarra! Much prayers to him!

[@mitchellosmer1293]

qyote---he best way to get daily scripture and pray the rosary! --unquote I have read the Holy Bible many times looking for scripture that mentions praying to beads. Have not found it yet.Please--quote it from the Holy Bible. Also, many have told me that Mary prayed to beads--Again, have not read it in the Holy Bible.---

[@billymays7958]

@@mitchellosmer1293 non sequitur.

[@crusaderACR]

​@@mitchellosmer1293Is kneeling and grasping your hands when in prayer in the Bible? It's not. God is fine with it either way, as long as we keep it humble and authentic. I mean sure, God is strict with worship/sacrifice, but never was He strict with prayer was he?

[@yourboieb4477]

ERICK YBARRA IS SUCH A KING I GOT SO FREAKING EXCITED WHEN I SAW YOU HAD HIM ON!!!!

[@bloodoranges2631]

A king? That's a podcast of catholic apologists not a great philosophers and church scholars debate.

[@mjramirez6008]

@@paolody438 a very knowledgeable, humble Christian man, a king as much as we all are in Christ

[@Beatsbeebur]

true.

[@mitchellosmer1293]

@@bloodoranges2631 Catholics claim Sunday is a holy day made by God. I will ask these questions again which NO ONE can answer. And I know you will NOT!!! Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE RESTED on the First day of Creation?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE BLESSED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE SANCTIFIED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE NAMED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE DECLARES the First day of the week as HIS HOLY DAY?--(to make the day special). FACTS: The ONLY DAY GOD RESTED on---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD BLESSED---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD SANCTIFIED---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD named--7th day.-Sabbath -Isaiah 58:13 The ONLY DAY GOD DECLARES AS HIS HOLY DAY------7th day---Sabbath--Isaiah 58:13 .Quote the Holy Bible and prove me wrong!!! (When a law is once enacted by proper Authority, that law must remain in force until that same Authority repeals it; and the repeal must be as plainly stated as the original enactment." - anonymous) ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

[@henrysmith5784]

Eastern Orthodox here, I love the humility and love that both of these men have displayed. Much love to my Catholic brothers and sisters. Let us work out our salvation in fear and trembling and in love and humility towards one another 😊

[@evolvingerinb]

I truly appreciate this channel and the content it provides. I am so turned off by the ugliness of a lot (not all) of the internet / KZbin bitterness. I and I believe many others need more channels like this. God bless us all in our journeys toward truth. 🙏

[@ZZZELCH]

Excellent conversation and a great model for our communities to continue to understand one another. Your Orthodox brother in Christ.

[@elizabethrene1320]

This is sp comforting and helpful. I'm currently in the searching and reading everything stage, and it's been feeling kind of stressful. Around the 1 hr 10 minute mark(ish) was exactly what I needed right now.

[@seanrodrigues12]

Ybarra speaks with great authority and balance. Very calming to hear such intellect and wisdom, and one of our own. Great job of interviewing, Matt. Just the right amount of gently guiding the conversation.

[@matuskaandme5408]

I wanted to add, Eric Ybarra mentioned towards the end that he thinks the exodus towards Orthodoxy will continue to grow. This may or may not be true. Something important to consider though, is the world of difference between how Orthodox and Catholics live. Generally speaking in America, the average Orthodox Christian has a much closer relationship to the people in their parish and especially the parish priest. Priests are almost always married and have younger children. There is a total overall spiritual effect from these kinds of things, especially when you consider the value that Orthodox place on liturgy, theology, and spiritual practices. I've been a priest for 8 years and served in five different states across the USA. Ancedotally, I'll say from my experience, the real decisive factor is the community that surrounds a person. Academics, theology, Internet videos, those really do matter in some sense. But I think ultimately what matters for a person making a call, "should I be Orthodox or Catholic" ends up boiling down to the community life and if that is healing the deep wounds of their spiritual ailments.

[@AprendeMovimiento]

1:52:29 Joy in the Christian home / as a father of two and hopping for more kids this is great advice! Please make a short clip of this part!!! much love!!!

[@kevinmc62]

Erick is super chill and a refreshing brother in Christ.

[@alexsadventures66]

Erick is so well spoken I love this man plz have him on tomorrow the next then the next day and the day after he is great loved him Matt love you all!!!!❤️

[@reuvenkorff6054]

God bless and keep you both- this was a wonderful conversation. More than Erick's arguments, I admire and love the deep calm with which he seems to discuss matters of the Faith I really and truly think I don't have a rein on my passions to be able to adequately understand the true depths of the Faith (though it's the only thing that really holds my attention anymore). I remember when I converted three years ago I was graced with about a year and a half of peace, comfort in faith, and a desire for prayer and fasting. Now, an excellent conversation like this gives me some measure of peace again. Yet I need only scroll through the comments on this video and spy some comment about "Erick is a liar!" or "Erick was refuted by X on this point!" for my soul to feel a panic, and me to furiously skim through the first paragraph or two of a couple of articles in order to find some phrase or argument which seems to refute such claims and gives me that same peace again. I'm looking for the security that mans' arguments provide, rather than looking for God (who never promised us security on this earth). I pray that I be able to break such habits, and be able to seek God without such agitation- as Erick himself seems to here. I'm not certain I could stand being friends with an Orthodox priest as he was without seeking to prove him wrong regularly for my own sense of peace (never considering the man's soul). Please pray for me also.

[@Merb.]

This was so helpful in easing the stress and urgency I’ve been feeling about discerning where to land. The more I learned about church history the more lost and overwhelmed I felt. It’s nice to know that yes, it’s complex, and no I don’t need to pull the trigger immediately.

[@rlxlolxlb]

This is the clarity I've been seeking on the Orthodox faith. I love our orthodox brothers and sisters of course. Matt and Erick, thank you.

[@jackneals5585]

Ybarra is an ABSOLUTE legend at this point...

[@misterprogressive8730]

Why? These two were just spitting disinformation and straight out propaganda the entire time: 1. Rome never has any supremacy since there used to be five ancient patriarchies which were equal with eachother and only came together when they wanted to condemn someone... ironically they eventually condemned eachother. 2. Jesus never established the catholic church. He was never in rome. Probably peter was never in rome either. The tomb of peter was based on a hearsay. 3. The reason why catholicism is so widespread is because of imperialism. Spain and portugal were the largest imperial colonial power in the world in the 16th century and under the the banner "gospel, gold, and glory" they spread catholicism while killing and robbing the entire world. 4. There isnt any philosophical unitiy within the catholic church. So have leftist groups who believes in the liberation theology and lunatics from the opus dei, all calling themselves true catholics while condemning eachother.

[@alphonsustheleast1537]

@@misterprogressive8730 ahahaha go away, liar.

[@josephzammit8483]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oGfTpGWmasqbeJI

[@aadamy]

@mister progressive Let me ask you, what kind of church does Christ want to build? Where are what is the Church?

[@bloodoranges2631]

@@alphonsustheleast1537 was there any live chat ?

[@scottcraig77]

That was a beautiful text that the priest sent u 😢 I’m enjoying these debates more than ever being outside the church for a while and arguing my way back in ❤

[@billythebeard6055]

Wow! Heavy-duty stuff! But very helpful. Thank you, Matt, for having Erick on your show. Have him back for sure. 🙏🏻

[@bethanyann1060]

This was wonderful. I can’t wait for Erick’s book to come out.

[@iwattguitar]

This is a wonderful conversation, thank you. One thing you mentioned, not central to the conversation but very important, is 'Trad scrupulosity'. Yes! I am firm supporter of the old rite and attend it almost exclusively. Thankfully, the sort of stuff you referred to is entirely absent where I go. However, I have, in the past, listened to trad sermons online and found scrupulosity becoming a problem. Some of it is absurd, such as quoting a Pope from 70 years ago on how long a lady's sleeve should be.Anyone who reads actual traditional moral theology will find the Catholic positions are very balanced. Indeed, Ronald Knox could refer, in 'The Belief of Catholics', to how the Catholic Church was viewed as morally lax by other Christians (which just shows how much protestantism has changed over the last century). Catholics are not obliged to find the most rigorous position and follow it. Checking online to find what the most extreme position is in order to be 'on the safe side' is, I would argue, spiritually dangerous. Thanks for bringing this up!

[@NeverShoutRuth]

Amazing discussion. Definitely would be keeping up with Erick’s work. Such a blessing!

[@briandorrian8869]

Great work, Matt. I have enjoyed Erick’s approach and style of dialogue.

[@bloodoranges2631]

Where there any live chat ?

[@MrFisherteach]

I had the same experience of dreading the transition between High Anglican liturgy and the Roman Catholic Novus Ordo. In fact, it took me 30 years to overcome. I love the Tridentine Mass, and I'm blessed to attend a church with a magnificent Novus Ordo. But I still use my Book of Common Prayer from the Episcopal Church of my youth. It's such a beautiful collection of prayers.

[@mitchellosmer1293]

@@MrFisherteach Catholics claim Sunday is a holy day made by God. I will ask these questions again which NO ONE can answer. And I know you will NOT!!! Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE RESTED on the First day of Creation?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE BLESSED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE SANCTIFIED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE NAMED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE DECLARES the First day of the week as HIS HOLY DAY?--(to make the day special). FACTS: The ONLY DAY GOD RESTED on---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD BLESSED---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD SANCTIFIED---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD named--7th day.-Sabbath -Isaiah 58:13 The ONLY DAY GOD DECLARES AS HIS HOLY DAY------7th day---Sabbath--Isaiah 58:13 .Quote the Holy Bible and prove me wrong!!! (When a law is once enacted by proper Authority, that law must remain in force until that same Authority repeals it; and the repeal must be as plainly stated as the original enactment." - anonymous) ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

[@Buffmonke_gt34]

You guys, thank you for your utter honesty and transparency. We need more real dialogue like this.

[@mitchellosmer1293]

Catholics claim Sunday is a holy day made by God. I will ask these questions again which NO ONE can answer. And I know you will NOT!!! Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE RESTED on the First day of Creation?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE BLESSED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE SANCTIFIED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE NAMED the First day of the week ?--(to make the day special). Where in the Holy Bible does GOD say HE DECLARES the First day of the week as HIS HOLY DAY?--(to make the day special). FACTS: The ONLY DAY GOD RESTED on---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD BLESSED---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD SANCTIFIED---7th day. The ONLY DAY GOD named--7th day.-Sabbath -Isaiah 58:13 The ONLY DAY GOD DECLARES AS HIS HOLY DAY------7th day---Sabbath--Isaiah 58:13 .Quote the Holy Bible and prove me wrong!!! (When a law is once enacted by proper Authority, that law must remain in force until that same Authority repeals it; and the repeal must be as plainly stated as the original enactment." - anonymous) ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

[@Pohnji]

This was fantastic and exactly what I needed. Thank you!

[@charliek2557]

Erick it’s time you do your own podcast.

[@matuskaandme5408]

My favorite quote from this video: when Matt said "Yeah, but Christ was Divine and the Fathers were Saints."

[@coolhandphilip]

I think I've found the best apologist alive today.

[@UriasThePious]

Erick is so underrated.

[@TheDjcarter1966]

I heard someone once say in the end the reason I am Catholic is because I am in the West. In the end I think that is as good an answer as any. The two lungs of the Church statement is true, we are one Church...if it was a heavyweight fight at the end God as the judge will be raising both hands.

[@iparipaitegianiparipaitegi4643]

Funny. Ybarra (or Ibarra according to the Basque modern alphabet) is a very typical Basque family name. It means ‘valley’. The Basque Country, which has given the Church great saints: St Ignacius of Loyola, St Francis Xavier, St Michael Garikoitz…

[@meatofpeach]

Love you Erick, thank you for everything

[@frdavidpalmer1428]

Delighted to hear Erick is going to an Ordinariate parish!

[@mbfelty]

Matt - First Erick is a fount of information about the early Church fathers and thank you for the discussion. Second, the quote you read from your text from Father Jason Charron is profound and NEEDS to be in a published book to be available to all the faithful. I listened over and over to transcribe it for myself. Please have Father on again and discuss this topic of disillusionment with the Catholic Church. I attend a Novus Ordo church in a small city with no other Catholic, eastern Catholic or Orthodox Church. I love my Pastor who is reverent and humble and traditional and the light of Christ shines forth from him. But I also hear the disillusionment of others in my own family, in my parish and in the universal Church, all of whom need to hear the wisdom of Father Charron and other faithful servants of the Body of Christ.

[@stevenschwartz765]

Early divisions in the 1AD are interesting because they aren't new divisions that started only after Christ created a new people. . They were divisions already present among diverse understandings and practices of diverse Judaisms. Whom is the Heavenly Man riding on the clouds, told in Daniel? A human who was made God? A God whom only appeared to be a man? Or the second power in Heaven, whom Moses knew, whom Abraham knew, whom Jacob knew, who became Man through the Virgin.

[@mary_quin]

"We technically everyrhing to death" as an explanation is humurous and enlightening in a sense that opened new information to me at least, about the Catholic church! The things that was discussed here are a lot to take in but so helpful nonetheless! Massive thanks!

[@dianekamer8341]

This is excellent. Thanks to both of you! And I'd just like to say that we've always been borderline TOO loosey-goosey with our kids, so I guess we avoided that pitfall, while falling into many others!

[@golmanijev]

We in the Orthodox Church celabrate the Epiphany today, which is New Testament proof of the fallacy of Filioque. Ergo, your dear friends, the Orthodox, are not wrong about Filioque...😊 Nevertheless, this is a very good talk and I really appreciate and applaud the bravery with which both of you are going at it, even though I disagree with some of your key claims and reasoning that keep you both Roman Catholics. May God keep you both! 🙏

[@markeedeep]

Wouldn't Roman Catholics mostly agree pope Francis crossed the line by placing a native American idol into the reliquary of the Vatican?

[@t.d6379]

It was an icon of the Blessed Mother so?

[@markeedeep]

@@t.d6379 no it is not. End of story.

[@t.d6379]

@markeedeep 🤣🤣🤣 comical reply but okay suit yourself.

[@curtisjordan9210]

Loved your guest. Keep up the hard work!

[@stevenhazel4445]

50 mins in and want so say thanks for the great convo. I became interested in this guest after seeing his Christian character when debating Jay D.

[@MarkDParker]

Listening to this discussion about the historical divisions within the church, I can't help but think of Matthew 23:15, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell as yourselves." (NRSV)

[@namapalsu2364]

2:07:11 So Erick, you did hear me say that I want 700-800 pages. But you heard it partially. I want 5-7 volumes of 700-800 pages. So, this would be the first volume. Can't wait for the rest. Don't be like George R. R. Martin.

[@chinocalbes5406]

-On the Passion, Christ was stripped of His Majesty = It's the same when the Church was stripped of her Liturgy, art, and culture (the beauty of the Church was stripped) -On the Cross, the BODY and SPIRIT of Christ was sundered = It's the same when Pope Benedict sundered the Papal authority from the Seat of Peter (he stepped down from his seat in Rome but implicitly stated that he still holds the Papal authority) -When judas renounced Christ and surrendered Him to the world = It's the same when Pope Paul VI renounced his crown and led the Church to surrender to the world ~I was contemplating this for a while, and I found Erick's journey in returning back to the faith very enlightening.

[@alfreds.2335]

Love Erick's humility and honesty here

[@Catmonks7]

Best interview I’ve seen on orthodox vs catholic debate 👍🙏🇻🇦✝️⛪️🇺🇸❤️

[@MrJoebrooklyn1969]

This was unbelievably intellectual.

[@namapalsu2364]

29:35 Correction, "miaphysite" is more properly translated as "one nature" not "one person."

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

From what I hear phusis has multiple meanings

[@YardenJZ]

This has been a refreshingly candid discussion about Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. •Somtimes we win by an inch, but an inch is an inch. •God won't judge you for not understanding this particular phrase in Byzantine Greek the way it was understood by South-East-Anatolians. Also, the Little Office of Baltimore is great. I use it a lot. It is perfect especially for people who want to get into the Liturgy of the Hours in an easy way that does not consist of flipping pages 546 times during one (1) prayer or having to by 4 volumes.

[@MaxStArlyn]

1:39:45 There was NO EAST and WEST, only the ONE SINGLE, Christian Roman Empire Led first by Rome, for a short while, then Constantinople. In the early centuries, THE WEST was also used to note, the language, of Latin, used mostly in the western part of the empire, and Greek language used mostly in THE EAST, or eastern part of the empire. IT WAS NEVER SPILT INTO TWO EMPIRES. Over centuries “Greekness” tended to eventually dominated over the whole empire. Greek influence was already part of the historical influence of the Roman civilisation from its conception, even well before it became an empire. Once Rome became a pagan empire, and later Christian, it became the capital of Christendom. This was only for a few centuries early on. For the over whelming majority of the longest running empire in world history, …the Christian Roman Empire, it was overwhelmingly Greek, and led by the capital of Christendom, Constantinople, which moved from Rome. Byzantine Empire, or Byzantium was NOT it’s name. It was the name of a very ancient pagan City, long gone, by the time Constantinople was built onto it. Because of its rich historical context, which included its geographical position, …made it the ideal position to build the jewel of Europe, and capital of Christendom, glittering Constantinople. On the flip side, there was no real “Holy “ Roman Empire, there was nothing “Holy” about it, nor was it the Roman Empire . There was only ever ONE ,…ROMAN EMPIRE, and it’s capital was first Rome, then Constantinople, it didn’t ever split in two, one led by Rome, and the other led by Constantinople, that is ridiculous.

[@ricardofabia]

I agree with the comment about Novus Ordo. Sometimes you're traveling and the celebration is just not good. Beyond that, If you're traveling where the local vernacular isn't your language it becomes even more challenging to follow it. The TLM is celebrated in the same manner wherever you go. Talk about "catholic" as "universal", and the TLM is as close as it gets. And this is all coming from someone that was raised post V2.

[@josephzammit8483]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oGfTpGWmasqbeJI

[@ntmn8444]

That’s bs. The vernacular mass is the same mass wherever you go. I’ve been to mass in places where English and Spanish were not an option for me, and I was still able to follow along. It would not be a Catholic Church if the mass isn’t the same. Even if you go to 2 different churches and the mass is in English, it’s the same mass. It’s all one single mass being celebrated. You just want to hate on NO for no reason with no proof.

[@ricardofabia]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3XZp4RrjNWSr9E Or is it?

[@bishoythakla5896]

@@ntmn8444 I think what Ricardo meant is that It (the NO) is the same mass, but in different languages. The beauty of having one, universal liturgical language like Latin is that no matter where you go, you will always know what's going on and understand. Hence, Latin mass = I can go to India, Mexico, Germany, etc. and everywhere will be the same. Now if I go to a NO in any of those countries, yes, they will have the same form of the mass but the languages are all different and I won't understand. No unity. Every major world religion has a liturgical language, so it's always confused me why the Church abandoned hers entirely in order to pursue the vernacular. Muslims have Arabic, Hindus have Sanskrit, Jews have Hebrew... the Church had Latin but not anymore. You should try attending the Latin mass. My wife and I started attending over a year ago and have never looked back.

[@lionheart5078]

I absolutely love Eric, God bless him and his family, what a G

[@Mkvine]

One of the best when it comes to Eastern Orthodoxy!

[@MaxStArlyn]

1:39:45 There was NO EAST and WEST, only the ONE SINGLE, Christian Roman Empire Led first by Rome, for a short while, then Constantinople. In the early centuries, THE WEST was also used to note, the language, of Latin, used mostly in the western part of the empire, and Greek language used mostly in THE EAST, or eastern part of the empire. IT WAS NEVER SPILT INTO TWO EMPIRES. Over centuries “Greekness” tended to eventually dominated over the whole empire. Greek influence was already part of the historical influence of the Roman civilisation from its conception, even well before it became an empire. Once Rome became a pagan empire, and later Christian, it became the capital of Christendom. This was only for a few centuries early on. For the over whelming majority of the longest running empire in world history, …the Christian Roman Empire, it was overwhelmingly Greek, and led by the capital of Christendom, Constantinople, which moved from Rome. Byzantine Empire, or Byzantium was NOT it’s name. It was the name of a very ancient pagan City, long gone, by the time Constantinople was built onto it. Because of its rich historical context, which included its geographical position, …made it the ideal position to build the jewel of Europe, and capital of Christendom, glittering Constantinople. On the flip side, there was no real “Holy “ Roman Empire, there was nothing “Holy” about it, nor was it the Roman Empire . There was only ever ONE ,…ROMAN EMPIRE, and it’s capital was first Rome, then Constantinople, it didn’t ever split in two, one led by Rome, and the other led by Constantinople, that is ridiculous.

[@YardenJZ]

I love how expressive Matt is when a truth hits him hard.

[@josephzammit8483]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oGfTpGWmasqbeJI

[@solvictis]

@@joshuamoore8278 the devil would win.

[@intedominesperavi6036]

Thank God for this conversation. I have had my own struggles coming from my Protestant heritage, and even though I originally wanted to convert because I loved Catholicism, it became an exercise in refuting and knocking down increasingly well thought out Protestant arguments. Which was not a good fit with my own weakness leaning towards arrogance and pride. During that time I came up with a rule (because that's something that frustrated me with most Protestant objections): If you can only build up your own view by knocking down another, stop trying. If you can't build it up solidly-edifying try again. If it wasn't for that rule - and I think that's more properly called not my own rule - I probably still would have gone forward with my conversion, but with the false motives entirely. And we have a horrifyingly real example that you can be in the right Church for the false motives: Judas.

[@patcandelora8496]

Darn it Erick! Just when I was thinking of jumping!!!

[@marcosmina9842]

Regarding the schism of chalcedon 451 AD , the Copts of Alex and Syrian were called monophysist ie "one nature", but they called themselves as meaphysist ie "only one nature contains 2 natures"!! Which as per the Copts and Syrian is an accurate definition for their stance regarding Christ's Nature !

[@annowens7123]

Jesus Christ knew first hand the weakness of a human, yet he founded His Church on Peter because of his zeal for Christ, sent by the Father, in spite of his denying Jesus three times. For me, the Catholic, Apostolic Church founded by Jesus Christ, is forever the Church of Jesus Christ, in spite of what misguided men do to change it and make it theirs. I was born into a Catholic family with a mother who converted from the Quaker church because a Catholic Priest gave her the True explanation of the Holy Trinity. We were a Catholic family through and through. Mom had a deep devotion to the Blessed Mother, and prayed her Rosary daily. We were involved in all Parish activities. Our life revolved around our Catholic Faith. I wouldn’t know how to be anything other than a Catholic woman. I pray for the cleansing and healing of the Church, and conversion from the Papal Seat, throughout all the Clergy, consecrated Brothers and Sisters, and the Laity. This is home.

[@ultimouomo11]

I think the book Erick refers to at 27:30 is actually titled, "The Lost History of Christianity,” by Philip Jenkins

[@xAzureXHazex]

I'd like to thank Erick and Jay for my conversion to Orthodoxy. Especially as a former Protestant.

[@GuitarJesse7]

I appreciated the dad talk about family devotional time later in the video.

[@ivanspaziano1977]

Well Justinian really take Vigilius with force and against his will, and for not talking about how bad Theodore was, it's really a great story, with material for any new Netflix style series.

[@jacobmathew6135]

Wow. What a wonderful rich exchange. Thank You

[@basilel-salviti6910]

Thanks for this great dialogue. This is exceptional.

[@1JAMINben]

To be fair on Pope Francis on the transgender point, he did compare it to nuclear warfare because they're both contrary to nature, which typically I would've said isn't a pastoral thing to say but I'm still happy he did since he was very clear then. But yeah this was a good video.

[@carlosux]

this guy is amazing. 😳 who knew people could be so smart.

[@fungusbeef]

I also came up through high church "continuing" Anglicanism, where liturgical excellence is almost seen as a mark of the true Church. Erick's point that beautiful liturgy doesn't strictly correspond to truth, or "true-ness", is critically important, and was a pretty hard to adjust to after having been immersed in the Anglo-Catholic ethos. Christ is just as present in a weekday low ordinary form mass said by a mumbling priest, or in a "hippy guitar mass", as he is in a solemn high Latin mass. I would certainly prefer the latter for reasons of taste, fidelity to the tradition, and formation (lex orandi lex credendi), but I must submit my preferences to Christ and His Church and trust that Christ will be faithful despite human carelessness and disobedience.

[@auk7447]

Totally agree Ryan (I prefer guitars but I love that we can turn up to the same mass as brother sand sister despite some differences in taste

[@bethanyann1060]

Great point. It reminds me of the time I was looking into “Anglo-Catholicism” and happened upon a website of theirs that bragged about their liturgy being “more Catholic than the Catholics”. And then the next paragraph they were bragging about being accepting of homosexuality as a non-sinful lifestyle, women priests, etc. It was quite bizarre.

[@shepherddog1199]

I am of the opinion that we should have an Apostolic Council, with bishops from ALL Catholic rites, the EO, the OO, the ACOE, and all the others.

[@rlxlolxlb]

Matt asks a question and I'm like oh yeah, really good point. Erick answers and I'm like also really good answer. A theological ping pong match/friendly of greatness.

[@SaintlySaavy]

Incredible video. I didn't want to miss a min

[@archimandritegregory7730]

I have nev er seen the Roman Church as depleted of credibility as it is now under Francis. If he were in the business world he would have been dumped long time ago.

[@looqo7632]

I'm EO and looking into RC for *reasons*. I've learned so much in the past few months, including that I held a number of untrue ideas about RC. I want to see V1 as legit. I want to see the papacy, as it currently is defined as the real deal, but I simply can't accept it. It's like a schism in my heart, honestly. Anyway, I appreciate the dialogue.

[@renjithjoseph7135]

If you look on the Internet Archive, I believe there's a book by an Assyrian/Chaldean bishop about finding Vatican I Papacy in the first millennium. I haven't read in full myself. Just maybe adding some data to your board. God bless 😊

[@Marcel---Rome]

Lõok at my pösts I've recently made one on vatican 1s teachings found and explicitly found in the first millennium. Now, I'm still in my journey in spirituality in which church is true but re-converted to catholicism because of many reasons, but papacy is both argued scripture and history giving its unique place in understanding and it's evident that Rome always held the vatican 1 position since the beginning and evident that it's been exercised in early times an example is pope Celestine and him telling the patriarch of Alexandria or saint cyril to act on behalf of him and exercise disapproval. And much more, I'm working on presenting a case for papacy

[@sunnyyacob]

Hi Matt, Fantastic interview. Could you perhaps have Erick or another person on again and focus on the syriac tradition.

[@mikaelrosing]

I love this. Lutheran that have considered catholism and orthodoxy. This is great, and all the issues over all makes sense to be Protestant or catholic love catholism.

[@MsHburnett]

Mat please interview Paul. Sing the hours He's a blessing to Catholicism.

[@bbnoblebright]

Found his channel last week. It’s wonderful!

[@nono-bt8gy]

What is his channel?

[@andrewhiggins9732]

Why all these videos on “should you convert to Orthodoxy?” Because people are looking into these issues for themselves. Read Vatican I and compare it to the Roman Catholic Church today. Study the law of noncontradiction, and apply it to Vatican I and what the Roman Catholic Church is today. Most importantly visit a Orthodox Church and talk to a priest.

[@tonyrandall8703]

It isn’t coincidental that all these guys keep beating this drum. Many are leaving Rome for orthodoxy and many Protestants are leaving and looking at Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

[@Gruenders]

They’re getting nervous lol

[@Steveorino123]

The certainty and solace ended when the scandal in the hierarchy seemed like it would never end and Pope Francis started in with the double talk. It’s like between the pincers of the two the rug was pulled out from under us. I never thought I’d live to see such dark days. And then Francis’ embrace of all things Covid was the capper…..

[@danim2897]

All of this and what we are going thru has been prophesied by countless mystics, Saints and Marian apparitions centuries before. This is no surprise!! Even pope Francis by St Francis of Assisi. There will be a restoration and triumph of the church.

[@petercooke96]

Is this too simple minded: Jesus breathed on them and said recieve ye the Holy Spirit. So from our perspective the spirit proceeds forth from the son and we know what he has is from the father therefore from the father and the son?

[@nobodies117]

You can't stop the mass conversion to The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

[@delbert372]

I’ve been looking into the Catholic Church for about a year now, and honestly my biggest hurdle has been the notion of re-justification. All I’ve ever known is fundamentalism and evangelicalism (mostly evangelicalism), and singing songs with phrases like “Jesus paid it all” and “My sins, not in part but the whole, were nailed to the cross, and I bear it no more.” I love my Catholic brothers and sisters, but it is very difficult for me NOT to believe that when Jesus said “It is finished” that He completely and perfectly redeemed a particular people, all those that the Father gave to him. My mind has just been completely steeped in this way of thinking. I am open to the very real possibility that I am wrong, but it would take a very strong argument to convince me otherwise, considering Gods perfect foreknowledge and certain Biblical texts. Any help would be appreciated, but I’ve heard all or most objections before.

[@delbert372]

@DonnyBlips Believe it or not, I have that book. Only read about half though.

[@delbert372]

I should add, I would choose the Catholic Church over the Orthodox. I love the idea of the papacy, and the papacy down through the ages acts like a backbone, holding everything together. I also love the idea of a living magisterium that can teach and also clarify. Also, I do believe that the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16 makes the most sense and that Protestant attempts to explain it away fail.

[@ntmn8444]

It is wrong. You can lose salvation. If you went and you committed an atrocious crime, does salvation mean that person can commit that crime as long as he believes in jesus? Think about it. So can you go and sin Monday through Saturday and then go to church and be fine? Because you can’t. Unrepentant sin will make you lose your salvation. That’s all you have to do. Beliefs are powerful, but they’re not always true. This one just requires some logic. It’s not about listening to objections. You’re holding on to cognitive dissonance there.

[@delbert372]

@@ntmn8444 Every point here has been dealt with ad nauseum, and doesn’t factor in predestination, the new nature of those truly in Christ, God’s perfect foreknowledge, etc.

[@Mkvine]

@Delbert One of the best books I can recommend on the subject of justification is Robert Sungenis’ “Not by faith alone.” One of the likely reasons you’re having trouble with re-justification has to do with your view of the atonement. This is probably at the core of what’s going on. I’d be happy to talk more about it with you.

[@brad5938]

Erick, in a spirit of brotherly love and charity, you gotta lose weight my man. You have a cultivated mind but the mind cannot exist without the body. Right or wrong, people do not respect or listen to those who are morbidly obese and it likely negatively affects your outreach. I speak from experience here. A year and half ago I was much larger than you, near 500 pounds. I'm down 200 pounds in 18 months without exercise by simply eating carnivore and intermittent fasting one meal a day (OMAD). Hunger when in keto is nothing like hunger when fueled by sugar and carbs. It cured every medical issue I was experiencing. It's been so incredibly easy that I frequently find myself in deep regret for not doing it sooner. I'll pray for you brother.

[@phoult37]

Absolutely! And great work on your weight loss. OMAD and keto is where it's at.

[@oanavirlan]

Please invite Fr. Josiah Trenham to your channel. I would love to see a discussion between you two.

[@michaelholwey4611]

Thank you Matt and Erick for such a rich conversation! I just had a question on the part of the video talking about the filioque (1:32:29). Didn't the original creed not have the filioque in it? The first two ecumenical councils drafted the creed which did not contain the filioque and this was agreed upon by east and west. I'm curious where Erick is getting that the filioque was always a part of the apostolic deposit of faith in the west. If it were, why did the original creed not have it in there? I understand that there was an Arian heresy that crept into the west in the middle of the first millennium, and some parts of the west added the filioque to combat the heresy and affirm the divinity of Christ. However, didn't Pope John VIII condemn the filioque (along with the other bishops) in the 8th ecumenical council in 879? This was the official position of Rome until the beginning of the 11th century when the filioque was officially inserted into the creed by the Pope. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this. Thank you again.

[@Erick_Ybarra]

Hi Michael Holwey, I touched upon this in my book on the Filioque which is available on Amazon. In short, the Filioque is seen in Fathers such as Ambrose, Augustine, Pope Leo, Pope Gregory the Great, Pope Leo III, and many other saints that are venerated as chief witnesses to the Apostolic faith by both Catholics and Orthodox. An Ecumenical Council as well as the Synodikon of Holy Orthodoxy include some of these names, making them premiere saints within the Orthodox faith. It would be extremely unfitting to have so many saints on the calendar who upheld "a heretical doctrine of the Filioque" for so many centuries. In the 19th century, the Orthodox were comparing the Filioque error to Arianism, and so the doctrine received a serious condemnation by the Orthodox Church. A condemnation which I don't think is fitting given their acceptance of these saints as fathers and doctors of Christ's body. John VIII never condemned the Filioque. Rome defended the Filioque doctrine ever since the beginning. What C'ple 879 condemned was any alterations or additions to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed. However, such a rule is not inherent within the preaching of Jesus or the Apostles, and thus it does not make up the sacred deposit of faith. Consequently, it can be changed by the proper authority so long as the sacred deposit is thereby defended. Since the Filioque is biblical, patristic, and reasonable, the West added Filioque to the creed, and this does not contradict anything essential to Christianity even given the condemnatory decree of Cple 879. The Greeks accepted this twice at the Councils of Lyons 1274 and Florence 1439, though both of these Councils are rejected by the Eastern Orthodox. I would recommend looking into the writings on the filioque by an Orthodox scholar Peter Gilbert whose website (de unione ecclesiarum) is devoted to transmitting the ecumenical papers of John Bekkos, the Patriarch of Constantinople who was pro-union with Rome via Filioque.

[@michaelholwey4611]

@@Erick_Ybarra Thank you for your reply. I am trying to understand the western position on this as I feel there is confusion as to what "procession" really means. Are we talking about the spiration of the Holy Spirit in the Godhead before creation, or are we talking about the sending of the Holy Spirit into the world as part of salvation history, or both? As I understand it, these are two very different things and shouldn't be confused. I have been reading up on some of these western saints' writings on the Holy Spirit, and I can see what you mean. So far I've read Ambrose and a little bit of Augustine. Augustine's language is certainly very strong, but he admits his theology is speculative and is open to correction. In any case, I would be very careful to suggest that the filioque teaching was a part of the deposit of faith in the west. The deposit of faith, as you already mentioned, is what the Apostles themselves handed down. East and west received the same deposit from the Apostles. It doesn't seem fair to call some of these fathers' writings from the fourth century and later the deposit. Great saints, like Augustine, did their best to discourse on theology without the ability to collaborate with their eastern brothers so some of their writings do feel very speculative and open to criticism, however, its not something we can necessarily hold against the saints since no saint said and did everything perfectly. I would also ask if the filioque was a part of the deposit of faith in the west, why did the western fathers not push for it in the 2nd Ecumenical Council (Constantinople 1) where the Creed was finalized and agreed upon by both east and west? I apologize if you answer this question in your book. I hope to pick that up sometime in the near future. As you said yourself in the interview, this is a very complicated topic, so I really do appreciate your thoughts and insights on these matters. Thank you for your time.

[@lukasmakarios4998]

​@@michaelholwey4611- The filioque was not added into the creed during the early councils because it was not an issue without the challenge of Arianism. The denial of Christ's divinity was the goad that called for a response affirming his place in the Trinity. Thus "filioque" asserted that wherever there is one person of the Godhead, there must be present the other two also. And as noted, the idea of filioque was not actually rejected in 879, but the arrogance of unilateral insertion of anthing into the creed without calling another ecumenical council. It was in effect a denial of the usurpation of authority, on the disputed grounds of "petrine" leadership supposedly bestowed by Jesus. Basically, they were saying, "You can't do that without asking us first." It was not the word itself which they rejected.

[@christianpethukov8155]

Your pre-stream music sounds like it belongs in an old NFL highlight film. 😁

[@bethanyann1060]

Lol when I first read your comment I thought you said “pre-schism” music

[@christianpethukov8155]

@@bethanyann1060 I'm not that old!! 😄

[@atmalewis1768]

I needed to hear this conversation. I'm at the fork, being in an Anglo-Catholic church. Praying outlook together from 1928 Prayer Book, beautiful simple liturgy and the eucharist together. I love it all. I listen to Orthodox teachers on podcasts. But I'm feeling a tug toward the Catholic church. You spoke about the problems with that now. The evil Pope (yes, that's my opinion) and the disappointment when o go to some of the churches. The targeting of Trads. The corruption throughout. I'm very hesitant to move from where I am because of this, but am yearning for an ancient traditional church.

[@Hoosie_]

Hey there. I'm not sure where you are since you posted this comment, but I was in the same position as you 11 months ago. I ended up going through RCIA and was confirmed in the Catholic Church this Easter. All I can say is - it's worth it. Especially as an Anglo Catholic, which I was also a year ago. There are plenty of issues within the Church, but the Catholic Eucharist is on another level from what I've ever experienced anywhere else, and now as a Catholic I can say that there's a reason for that. It is the true Church, with the fullness of the faith.

[@mertonhirsch4734]

According to the current Roman Catholic position, there is no such thing as "conversion" from Orthodoxy to Roman Catholicism. The last 3 Popes have all stated that as for the Roman Catholic position, Orthodox are fully connected to the church and experience the fullness of the faith, and Pope John Paul, and Benedict both made statements that Orthodox Laity, Deacons and Priests should remain obedient to their local Orthodox Bishops (at this point in time and under current relations between the two churches). Orthodox are free, according to Rome to participate in Roman Catholic Liturgy and receive sacraments without any confession of heresy or schismatic behavior. Orthodox bishops do not allow this and so an Orthodox Christian can not do so, while also fulfilling the Pope's requirement that Orthodox be obedient to their local bishops (at this time).

[@riverjao]

1:06:56 - as it’s been said: “God is like Jesus. God has always been like Jesus. There’s never been a time that God wasn’t like Jesus. We’ve not always known that but now we do.” The journey from the Old Cov to the New is not the journey of God going from meaner to nicer but rather humanity’s journey of coming to realize the unrelenting goodness of God.

[@riverjao]

@Daniel Smith I think he got it from Brian Zahnd who got it from someone else.

[@riverjao]

@Daniel Smith I actually interviewed Brian (as well as Brad) and I think he said something about it on there. Not 100% for sure though.

[@IpCrackle]

So much respect for Erick.

[@lukasmakarios4998]

If you don't agree with the first point of the Catholic Church's "foundational arguments" for Petrine Primacy, the others don't even make sense. The Bishop of Rome should have no more authority than any other Metropolitan Bishop who leads the Church. But if the Orthodox wish to divide over conciliar decisions, like the "filioque," the way the Miaphysite Churches did earlier, over the nature of Christ's person, then we can recognize whatever degree of leadership we choose to confer on him. Let the Protestants demur to follow as they will because they recognize no umbrella of authoritative leadership. That is no different from the Orthodox denial of Papal authority, and no less essential in doctrine than the Miaphysite retreat from communion. When Jesus said, "and upon this rock I shall build my Church," He meant the verbal confession, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God," not the person who said it. Peter got the name only because he was the first to say it, without any hesitation. Jesus knew he had a big mouth and would make a good teacher. Indeed, ten seconds later, he wanted to argue with Jesus about being crucified. I wonder how many times Jesus has wanted to tell the Popes, "Get thee behind me Satan! You are thinking as men do, not as God does." Probably every time they asserted their "designated petrine authority" to tell everyone to fall into lockstep with the "Catholic Church." The desire to be great among men was one of Jesus's pet peeves, which He denounced repeatedly. And the Orthodox Bishops have not been wholly immune to this failing either. The Church that Jesus built needs to depend on the consensus of opinion flowing from the Holy Spirit through the approved canon of scriptures and the ecumenical councils, up until the Church split apart, allowing for such sectarian variety which recognizes that each branch still remains "Christian." At no point, however, can the authority of the plain meaning of Scripture be denied, especially for the self-serving usurpation of authority. Let the accretions of the Magisterium be submitted to the consensus of scriptural interpretation, so that the Holy Spirit may prune back its excessive ambitions. Indeed, insofar as we all have gone astray in our separate ways, we should all observe the opinions of the whole Church, and seek to curb our peculiarities. Let us lend deference and weight to the very oldest of traditions, as to the traditional deposit of the teaching of the Apostles and the faith of the Early Fathers and saints.

[@Rome_77]

Comparing the curb appeal of RC vs EO is unfair. Not apples to apples. RC is >5x the size of EO. Not to mention our Americanized mainstream Catholicism in the U.S. is so much larger than the immigrant diasporic EO churches we have here. You would expect to find a more serious, intimate, and otherworldly experience in a foreign community containing a highly-committed self-selected educated class of converts. This is like comparing a Trad TLM community with mainstream novus ordo Catholicism. They are not guilty of our kind of mistakes because they have not been victims of our kind of success.

[@bigtimesully]

Have him on again!

[@buffsoldierofchrist5907]

Amazing stuff, but did Erick actually say he doesn't believe in biblical inherency? maybe I got it wrong tough, dont stone me. Gonna convert to RC soon Lord willing, dont hate convert and participate

[@timrichardson4018]

At 40:25. I've heard Orthodox object to the papacy precisely on the grounds Erick is citing. They don't care how much logical and practical sense it makes. The ultimate question to them is did Jesus found it, and was it handed on by the apostles.

[@randysteinke9802]

Erick is very underrated and less known than he should be...

[@danrocky2553]

Grass is always greener.

[@waterlemon777]

Ybarra, your book’s not on Kindle and is sold out physically!

[@viktoriyatarevic900]

On the matter of the Filioque, the Council of Blachernae 1285 makes no reference to any so-called "energetic procession." As far as I can tell, the term/notion is a 20th-21st century fiction, conjured by quack academics, attempting to manufacture a greater metaphysical divide with that of the Catholic Church (so-called 'Orthodox distinctives'). In other words, it's meme theology. St. Mark of Ephesus (and Blachernae) is absolutely clear that "through the Son" refers to a hypostatic procession: "so the Spirit does not participate in the birth (of the Son of the Father); or in other words, both are "Origins" and then are joint with each other, as the theologians of the Fathers teach. That is why it is said that the Holy Spirit proceeds "through the Son" - that is, "with the Son", and as the Son (descended from the Father), although not by the image of birth (γεννητώς)... By this he wants to make it clear that "through the Son" means "with the Son"; for there is no other personal attribute of the Holy Spirit here ascribed to the Son, except that he is known to Him; and nothing else in relation to the Father than that He has being of Him." - St. Mark of Ephesus, The Confession of the Right Faith, Paragraph 1 (source: azbyka.ru/otechnik/Mark_Efesskij/ispovedanie_pravoy_very/?fbclid=IwAR03FScL-nf_7tOATVzYs0amA9K3XvrW3wwejL3jmCf-4oRyPkl4d-NyvB8) As is clear from the passage above, the Holy Spirit's procession through the Son is the "only personal attribute" (not energetic) that's ascribed to the Son. However, St. Mark makes it clear that the procession "through the Son" is not to be understood as "from the Son," where the Son is made a co-cause or co-principle with the Father (as the Catholics affirm), but rather as a procession "with the Son." In other words, the generation of the Son from the Father, and the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father, are not two distinct processions, where the Son and Holy Spirit are by any means separated. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone as "through" or "with the Son." This is exactly what Blachernae 1285 affirms: "To the same, who say that the preposition "through" everywhere in theology is identical to the preposition "from" and, as a result, maintain that there is no difference in saying that the Spirit proceeds "through the Son" from saying that it proceeds "from the Son" - whence, undoubtedly, the origin of their idea that the existence and essence of the Spirit is from the Son. And they either infer a double or single procession of origin, and join the Son to the Father according to this explanation of "cause," both of which are beyond all blasphemy." In other words, Erick's claim that "through the Son" is identical to "from the Son" (both are "filioquist") is precisely what's condemned at Blachernae. Erick is not refuting the Orthodox position but rather is entirely ignoring it. The point is that the Orthodox understand "through the Son" as "with the Son," while the Catholics understand it as "from the Son," making the Son a co-cause of the Holy Spirit (thereby introducing two principles in the Godhead). Below is passage from Theoleptos of Philadelphia, a key player at Blachernae 1285: "The Spirit’s descent from above upon the Son signifies the hypostatic procession of the Spirit from the Father, proclaims his natural relationship to the Son, and also announces that the Father is the cause of the Son and the Spirit, of the Son as begetter and of the Spirit as the One who sends forth. The teaching of the Savior in the Gospels accords wit this mystagogy manifested in His baptism. For the Spirit of Truth (that is, of the Son) proceeds from the Father but rests in the Son as his spirit without being separated from the Father, from whom he proceeds, nor being divided from the Son, in whom he rests. Rather, the Spirit coexists with and accompanies the Son since he is consubstantial with and proper to by nature… But eschew and reject the Italian appendage with all your will and strength, for it troubles the pure stream of theology.” - Monastic Discourses, paragraphs 54-55 The passage above, again, affirms that the Holy Spirit's procession through the Son is Hypostatic but without making the Son a co-cause or co-principle. The theophany (economy) is an image of theology.

[@Erick_Ybarra]

Hi Victoriya, I would be willing to do a live discussion on this is you'd like. The details are far too vast for a combox discussion. God bless! -Erick Ybarra

[@iliya3110]

St Gregory Palamas is where the teaching on the energetic procession from the Father and Son in eternity originated from and this is not referring to hypostatic procession. Blacarnae mentions the eternal manifestation and Palamas developed that teaching. It’s nothing to be upset about. It’s our Orthodox teaching.

[@viktoriyatarevic900]

@@iliya3110 Cite the passage from St. Gregory. Where does St. Gregory Palamas say that the eternal manifestation "through the Son" is energetic? And where does he use the phrase "energetic procession?" This isn't an Orthodox teaching. It's online meme theology. But I'm happy to review your primary sources, if you have any.

[@Erick_Ybarra]

@@viktoriyatarevic900 If you are up for a phone conversation or even an email conversation, that would be great. I just don't want such a complex convo to get lost in weeds. Please let me know

[@viktoriyatarevic900]

@@Erick_Ybarra thanks. I have your email and I will reach out in case I want to discuss these items in more detail. On another note, I had a similar exchange with Ed Scienski, where he cited certain passages from St. Palamas. Those passages, however, did not refer to the eternal manifestation but rather to the processions ad extra viz. grace. The two are related but not identical.