CAUTION! Manual is WRONG! How To Winterize "On Demand" Water Heater. Grand Design Reflection

[@Robnord1]

RV tech of 25+ yrs here. At 2:00 you're 100% correct sir. Flex hose with SS pinch clamps is a mfr's cheap way out and borderline criminal. In years to come it's nothing but trouble. Great video BTW ! Air *and* RV antifreeze is way overkill...but better that than sorry. Also, I use 50 -60 PSI. Fear not. Your system should handle it fine.

[@riderescue]

I agree with air blow out only till the industry started going with on demand water heaters. I have heard about many water heater freeze damage due to water trap areas in the heater. Started recommending antifreeze ever since. Thanks for watching and comments.

[@tsonflieth]

Thanks so much! I am a member of the busted water heater club, no thanks to GD. But I was within my extended warranty so they covered it thankfully. I did it your way this year and I now have confidence that I will be OK in the spring.

[@riderescue]

Glad I could help!

[@chargerhp1]

Great video. You mentioned pressure for blowing out. Every water pump from the factory I've seen are set to 55psi. That is the pressure I blow my system out with. I also go one or two steps farther. After I put antifreeze in the system, I connect the air again and blow all the antifreeze out (you can't freeze what's not there). Another step is PEX can take a lot of pressure but if something freezes like an ounce of water in the line that will build up thousands of pounds of pressure, the line will split at the weakest point not necessarily where the water freezes. If the faucets and drains are left open, there can't be any pressure build up if any water freezes. I had camping world also, they had to replace my fresh water tank 4 times because they don't know how to work with plastic pipe. Good luck. I remember you mentioned lithium batteries. I had one installed in one of my toys. I figured it would be better than lead acid in my shed over the winter. I would need to add water as necessary and charge them during the winter. I read up on lithium, they don't like severe cold. We get winter nights of 20 t0 30 below zero and that can damage a lithium battery so now I bring it in the house after charging

[@riderescue]

I like your idea of blowing out the antifreeze. I never though of that. Thank you for the comment and thanks for watching.

[@chesapeakeglenn]

Recapturing the antifreeze in their original containers seems like a good idea to save it. Nice tip sir!

[@kevinwyant5102]

Great video sir, well done and you are correct, those manuals are wrong. I have a winterizing business here in Montana. That Furrion tankless heater is the only one that has ever given me problems. I'm not sure if you left the filter and drain plug removed but I would recommend leaving them out. Also, there is a mixing ball in the rear of the unit. It helps regulate hot water when another appliance is turned on. So when the wife is in the shower and you turn the kitchen sink on, there is minimal temp change for the shower. There is no drain on the mixing ball. RV antifreeze will start turning into slush at around 0 degrees F which will build pressure. This mixing ball is extremely fragile. It will break because it is filled up 100% with antifreeze. All it takes is access to the rear of the water heat and a 3/4" wrench. Place a towel under the ball and crack the lower fitting and allow to drain. If you add these steps to your winterization process your outcome will even be better. Once again, great video.

[@riderescue]

Thank you for watching and big thanks for the tip on the mixing ball. I did test my antifreeze and it does jell like you said. I have heard about that mixing ball breaking but I was not aware of antifreeze being able to break it. Thanks again. Love hearing from people like you that share their experience to help us RV owners. Cheers!

[@Doh1962]

We just went through a damaged mixing ball on ours. It froze and drove the standpipe out of it the bottom of it . BIG LEAK. Had a mobile tech come by, and of course they don't make the part anymore so the option was to buy a new water heater. I had the kid remove the mixing bowl and bypass it and the system works ok. I recently had the bowl repaired and and added a low point drain connection on the ball so I can drain the water out of it when winterizing and can then verify that it has filled with antifreeze.

[@brucegunn6396]

Thank you. I've had problems with mine and read about the mixing ball and antifreeze issue, but you're the first to suggest this fix. I'll do it this fall.

[@tsonflieth]

@kevinwyant5102 I am intereted in your comment about leaving the drain plug and filter removed. To a DIY'er like me it seems that the antifreeze would just drain out. Can you explain a little more? Thanks.

[@dtaylor2623]

Thanks! I will save this for the future of my 2024 296RTDS. Very professional and concise.

[@chesapeakeglenn]

Video very well done. Simple and clear. I think i might even be comfortable doing this myself now. Thank you for the effort to help others out!

[@riderescue]

Glad it helped

[@elizabethgreiner7436]

Thank you for taking the time to do this video!. We followed all the steps but didn't catch if we are to leave the low point drain plugs open or closed? We have them closed thinking that there is antifreeze in the lines. Correct?

[@riderescue]

Yes, you are correct. Keep the low points closed so that the antifreeze will stay in the lines. Thanks for watching my video. Glad you found it helpful.

[@RVTIPSANDTRAVELS]

*good information... on a side note, this is why i think nautilus panels are the worst. the intent is to make things simple, everything is at 1 panel and you just flip some valves around. the reality is a couple simple bypass valves on the back of the water heater, and an antifreeze introduction hose at the water pump is still much easier. simple, standard panels are becoming a thing of the past, unfortunately. the additional amount of hoses and fittings required to plumb a complex panel like the nautilus system is absolutely ridiculous and unnecessary. it also adds about 30 new spots for an RV to leak. just my thoughts, thanks for sharing the info on the manual.*

[@riderescue]

I totally agree, the system looks like a good idea to simplify it all but they totally missed the mark. I have had my trailer for two years and and I have have had way to many issues. I hate the panel and I am thinking of pulling it all out.

[@smgry]

Great job explaing the process!

[@riderescue]

Glad it was helpful!

[@blueeyephil]

Thanks so much for your video. I have a Reflection with a tankless water heater too. And I followed directions last year and had to replace my water heater in the spring. I was considering letting the dealer winterize as they said if the did and I had a problem they would replace my heater. Honestly, Grand Designs should be paying for the replacements. I followed their directions exactly. This is my 4th RV but 1st tankless water heater. And my very well be my last. I miss being able to use electric. I have friends that camp in higher elevations in the Rockies and say they have to use electric on their water heater. I'd hate not to be able to do that. I'll winterize myself like always but I have confidence that I shouldn't have a water heater problem next spring.

[@riderescue]

We camp in high elevations and have been fortunate to not have any issues with the heater. It is nice to have never ending hot water but we have to use way to much water to get hot when we want it. I don't like the tankless heater and I really miss having the option of electric.

[@EarlBalentine]

I see where the water gets drain and blown out with air but why bother when you can just put the antifreeze in and run it out the faucets until you see pink.?

[@riderescue]

I have thought about removing the blow out step, but just in case the pink stuff gets thinned with water, I want to be sure it's full strength. I have had freeze damage 4 times in extreme cold so I am overly careful. I have tested some of the pink antifreeze and it does freeze, it just will not expand to bursting. In my mind, a little water may cause damage that I don't want to have the chance for flood damage later. I had a toilet valve break and it caused major cabinet damage. Better to be safe.

[@Dragondawg27]

Had the very same experience with Camping World. Warranty doesn't cover a damaged heater either. Ended up costing us $1000+ to replace.

[@riderescue]

I hate Camping World. Corporate great at it worst.

[@brians7419]

Thanks for sharing! Awesome job! 👍😀

[@riderescue]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@user-ij1yb8vq6w]

Manual on mine said to blow it out with compressed air and then bypass when putting in the pink stuff. When I hooked it up in the Spring it was like a waterfall coming out of the water heater. Fun fact: the manuals are probably all wrong, they don't make any replacement parts for those heaters so you have to replace the entire thing, it'll probably be something like $1500 to $2000, and it's not covered under the replacement insurance because they see it as a user winterizing error. Local dealership told me they had at least 20 of those in their junk pile from early this year alone. If anyone knows of a class action lawsuit, let me know.

[@riderescue]

It is a shame when the owners manual instructions are clearly wrong and the manufacture will not cover the damage that it causes.

[@rage801]

Lol"I blame camping world"I had to keep watching it that point! That's One hell of a shady company! I bought a travel trailer from them this spring.

[@riderescue]

I will never do business with them again. The sales manager admitted that they should replace my water heater but he had no power to do the right thing.

[@hiddenacresoutdoors]

You can add us to the folks that followed the manual and broke our tankless heater. We didn't find out until 2 months after the warranty expired. Now I'm spending our vacation time bypassing the mixing bowl (poorly designed) so that we can have water to the RV. Not a happy camper at the moment.

[@riderescue]

Sorry to hear you followed that terrible manual. It's a shame that the company does not step up and repair these.

[@dandycox2200]

I’m actually in the middle of trying to get grand design to pay for this! Our rig didn’t get winterized 2022-2023 winter due to us traveling in southern states. I winterized it last fall and didn’t take it out until this summer and bam!! Water gushing out the side of our rig…so frustrating. If I had just KZbin’d this instead of going by the manual I would of had hot water during our labor day weekend trip…

[@riderescue]

@@dandycox2200 Sorry to hear that you found out your water heater was damaged before your Labor Day trip. My fridge went out during a big Memorial Day trip last year. Not fun to loose a major appliance during a big trip. Good luck with your water heater.

[@brucegunn6396]

I had that happen and I complained to my dealer. They took it to Grand Design and Furrion, which replaced it for free. I love the heater but hate the winterizing process and lame instructions.

[@caldwellrepaircentercaldwe9065]

Does the antifreeze damage the water heater ? I have heard that the chemical could ?

[@riderescue]

Not all RV antifreezes are safe but most are. Here's what to look for. Propylene glycol: Non-toxic, non-flammable, and safe for RV plumbing and fresh water systems. It can also lubricate faucet and toilet seals.

[@Robnord1]

No. You can ignore whoever told you standard pink RV antifreeze would damage your water heater. 25+ yr tech and authorized Suburban service center here.

[@Robnord1]

For you and other Grand Design owners; There is something you should know about your waste plumbing. On many GD models, they actually do a *tight* (not long sweep) 180° turn on 3" pipe just as it hooks to waste tanks. For that reason, you may want to consider never allowing anyone to put TP down the toilet, and do a fresh water fill of black tank and dump occasionally to avoid clogging up at the 180. It's a very poor design. RV tech Rob

[@riderescue]

So glad you mentioned this. After the 3rd blockage I now add about 10 gallons of water in the black tank after dumping and sometimes fill the black tank with fresh water and drive a few miles for a good rinse. I also use some PineSol after each dump to soap up the inside to help prevent clogs. I have not had a blockage since. Thanks again for the comments.

[@rascaliwmc]

First off, what model reflection is it? I noticed the difference in my 337RLS, had two, grey water T-pulls to drain while yours has 1. Also At the 10:33 mark, as you are draining the two low point hoses, I see water coming out dripping just forward of the axle. Where is that coming from as wasn't addressed in your vid. Do you put the plugs back into those low point hoses prior to starting the process once they are drained?

[@riderescue]

My model is a 226RK (26 foot, rear kitchen, 5th wheel). It has one 35 gallon fresh water tank, two 35 gray tanks and one 35 black tank. One gray tank tee handle is at the panel and the other handle is under the frame at the rear. I have a white tee handle between the axles and that is the fresh tank drain (that is the water you see dripping at the 10:33 mark). I do put the low point drain plugs back on once everything is drained.

[@mathewmetcalfe3063]

Thanks for a great video!

[@riderescue]

My pleasure!

[@rjsmith8392]

Thanks for the video, GD videos are clear as mud. Ya might have done it but not shown it but did ya do (or do ya not have) the back spray port near the tailights? I hate tryijg to get that hose to connect, such a pain and no rhyme or reason to it that ive found.

[@riderescue]

No. I don't have a spray port by my tail lights.

[@arthuraguirre5845]

Thank you so much for making that video you helped a lot

[@riderescue]

Glad it helped!

[@rage801]

I have two questions. Where are you hook in the clean City water to fill up your clean tank do you worry about that line I know I know you shouldn't be worried about the actual tank itself because you drained the tank but the lines going into that tank. My other question I have a brand new electric gas tankless water heater and it seems to not cycle the water through the hot water tank unless I turn the tap on pretty high and there is electricity and propane turned on. It's almost like it skips the hot water tank. Do you think I should turn on the power and propane? I know this stuff smells like vodka is there any chance it's flammable? I just want to be sure I can get all of the water out of that tank.

[@riderescue]

I have thought about the lines to the fresh water tank as well but I have never had problems so the water must drain well into the tank. I have heard of some people putting a little antifreeze into their fresh tank just to make sure and then draining the tank. I don't turn my hot water heater on when I push anti freeze though it. The pump does a great job getting antifreeze through the piping and faucets.

[@Baileywandering]

What are those attachments called to attach to the valve to blow air in?

[@chesapeakeglenn]

They are just a simple fitting. Male hose thread on one end, and valve stem sized on the other. I picked up a plastic one at Wally-world for a few bucks.

[@mathewmetcalfe3063]

why do they not want anti-freeze in the water heater?

[@riderescue]

I have wondered that myself. I don't see a problem with RV antifreeze.

[@chesapeakeglenn]

I have seen some videos of a "mixing ball" that has frozen and burst because there is no low point drain thereby not emptying the water. Running Antifreeze through should reduce that problem. I will make sure i flush all Antifreeze from the tankless heater BEFORE applying any heat. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y5rZl6CtgptnkLcsi=8uSthRYmsx2NUra8

[@brucegunn6396]

The mixing ball on the back of the heater has tiny tubes that will fill with the antifreeze and bust when the antifreeze gels about 0F. Another poster said to just drain the water from the ball by loosening the bottom nut on the ball.

[@pdirv]

I see your title indicates on demand water heater, but I would recommend adding maybe the year and Grand Design Reflection in the title, as well as updating your description or a pinned comment to stress that your statements regarding ***"bypass the water heater ... you're not supposed to do that"*** at 0:43 were both on your specific RV, and not only an on demand water heater, but with your specific model Furrion on demand water heater, and ultimately just what you're doing on your own personal RV. Otherwise you run into the same issue that you're complaining about in regards to Camping World and Grand Design in regards to someone potentially blaming you for an issue on their RV. One of my clients watched your video and probably some other videos in an attempt to winterize their own Grand Design ( Solitude ). It doesn't have an on demand water heater. They didn't bypass, and couldn't figure out why after 7 gallons of antifreeze they weren't getting anything pink coming out of the hot water side, only to realize that they've essentially filled their hot water heater with the antifreeze. I understand the intentions were good, and owners should be aware of what equipment they do or do not have, but unfortunately we live in a world where people have to provide so many disclaimers to avoid blame. This comment wasn't meant to bash what you did or anything like that. Just that the title, description, and contents were even a bit too vague for another Grand Design owner, let alone anyone else who might come along the video who maybe doesn't have the nautilus, or that specific on demand water heater, etc.

[@riderescue]

Thank you for your detailed comments. Very much appreciated. I will update my specific trailer information in the title and description. I did have someone ask a question about tank versus tankless. Definitely 2 very different winterizing steps. Thanks again.

[@camojack6293]

Hmmm first it’s a Grand Illusion……ha. 🤪. They r not the best….they pull great though….yes GD uses the cheapest material they can cough up. As you say…a home inspector would Red card these RV’s because of poor quality components n workmanship, these guys don’t have this $&it in their homes but have no problem putting it a RV, I have a on demand Water htr. I did follow the book and I got anti freeze outta it. No problems. I’m knocking on my head…. Oops. Wood. 😂

[@riderescue]

It is crazy how the RV industry gets away with the crap they do. It is shocking how many axles and springs fail after just a few thousand miles. At least a water leak will not kill anyone. Knock on wood... Funny stuff, thanks!

[@brians7419]

Thanks for sharing! Awesome job! 👍😀