Centurion Water Based 2K Poly Review

[@david54780]

Easily the best source of information for finishing an instrument on youtube. As a hobby drum builder I've learned all I needed for getting a factory-like finish on my homemade drums just by watching your videos. Thank you for quality content

[@HighlineGuitars]

Wow, thanks!

[@fulltiltgonzales]

Not to go overboard with a bunch of praise, I really can't thank you enough for your awesome videos. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! This one in particular is causing me to re-think everything I know about how I go about finishing my guitars. This is going to help me reach the next level, I just know it.

[@mattbandfield]

There’s two ways to gain adhesion between coats. Let it dry between coats and sand for a mechanical bond. If you don’t allow the finish to cure between coats you get a chemical bond between the coats. A chemical bond is far better than a mechanical bond. The trick is properly timing between the coats to not allow the finish to cure too much, but not so much you’re in danger of runs. Great information!! Thank you

[@omniscienteye8880]

Wow, Chris, thank you for going to great lengths to explain and do a demo! I was wondering if my PRS used an epoxy resin as a finish, but you pointed out that it's a 2K water base lacquer. Now, I know exactly what to look for!

[@omniscienteye8880]

@@mgcnashville6615 oh really? Thank you Uriel! Probably not available to the public, huh?

[@omniscienteye8880]

@@mgcnashville6615 damn...it really sounds like you know what you are doing. I'm not up to that level yet. You have any guitars listed online? I'm on my 3rd build, and painting and finishing clear coats aren't my strong suit, but they need to be if I ever want to put a price tag for the amount of time and hardware I put into it. Chris has a good painting booth hack on his channel, I might invest in that and a spray gun once i get a house with a garage.

[@omniscienteye8880]

@@mgcnashville6615 Thank you so much Uriel! You're expertise is invaluable and is something that is important for me to learn if I want to continue being a luthier. Keep up the great work, and let me know about your builds with a link!

[@clayw3192]

These are great products. I'm a cabinet refinisher and I use WB 2k poly on a daily basis. I use a brand called Renner and it's great as well. Envirolak and Milesi are other top manufacturers of these new WB 2k polys. Envirolak may have a 2k product out now without the isosyanites.

[@TheRrgilm]

Thank you Chris. Very in deep demonstration. I will try this product for sure

[@asterisk606]

Really well thought out and informative video as always. The end result looked fantastic!

[@Squay313]

Great video bro, thanks for taking the time. Learned quite a bit.

[@shermanmcmullen9582]

Sweet ..been waiting for something like this Chris...let's do this !

[@DavidRavenMoon]

That looks great! Thanks for doing these tests.

[@scottakam]

Looks cool. I will definitely check it out.

[@PranaCustomGuitars]

Alcohol destroys every water based finished I've tried to the point that it melts like snow in the summer. What is the chemical resistance? Thank you for all the great content Chris you have set a high standard for all of us to follow.

[@HighlineGuitars]

Once a water-based finish fully cures, it will resist alcohol. After all, the resin is the same as what’s used in solvent based finishes. Keep the alcohol away for at least a month. If it’s a 2k WB polyurethane, wait at least 6-8 hours.

[@mikkosutube]

Highline Guitars..you have a very systematic way of doing things that avoids personal bias and is very scientific in its approach..it shows that you have a grasp of reality in your work..not just throwing things together and beeEssing about how great it is..i did an aprenticship with the world renowned michael spalt who is amazing in his ability to work in a three dimensional world with design finesse and attention to detail..i wish that i could have done an apprenticeship with you as well..thanks for the great videos..i always know that i will find informative and useful content on your facebook page..

[@mikkosutube]

too bad this product is not distributed in Austria..

[@HighlineGuitars]

No but I'll bet you can get Milesi or Renner water-based 2k products. Both are made in Italy and are extremely good products.

[@mikkosutube]

@@HighlineGuitars wow..thanks for the quick reply and info..all the best!

[@rickgledura3194]

Hi Chris when I watched you stir the centurion and the catalyst what ratio do you mix the 2 and when you said you delude it with 2 to 3 g of water all the mixing cups I show are either in ounces or milliliters because grams is a measure of weight not liquid so what does 2 to 3 grams equal in Oz. Get a 2 by 6 6"x6" ,drill a hole in the center the size of the bottom of a small plastic flower pot either clay or plastic that your mixing cup will sit in and you won't have to worry about knocking It over As you stir it just something maybe your viewers can benefit from

[@HighlineGuitars]

I use a scale.

[@ethanmoeckel753]

I use 3M auto body imperial hand glaze (instead of car wax) on the guitars and basses for polishing to a high luster. Very luxurious. From, Ethan Moeckel (age 23).

[@HighlineGuitars]

Great tip, Ethan. Thanks!

[@AugmentGuitars]

Awesome! Think I'm going to try this stuff out. Can you add solid color pigments to this? Or the white topcoat they offer? Would love to spray some solid colors or even some metallics/flakes with it.

[@HighlineGuitars]

Ask them.

[@user-ch9jo8mi7m]

You always give such useful information in your videos. What is your opinion comparing this polyurethane compared to CrystalLac Bright tone as a final top coat? What is the difference between their 1800 and 2800 2K polys? is there and advantage to one over the other? Could you use or have you thought about using solarez ICBINL for the base coats and then applying the 2K ploy for the top coat or is that not necessary and too much work?

[@HighlineGuitars]

Centurion is harder and faster curing than Brite Tone. However, it is more toxic. I don’t know what the differences are between 1800 and 2800. Yes, you can use it over Solarez ICBINL.

[@user-ch9jo8mi7m]

@@HighlineGuitars I called annex paint and asked them the difference between 1800 and 2800. The following is the reply that I got from them. " The 1800 is a 2 component only product and will not dry without the catalyst, it is super hard and wont yellow it is designed to be interior /Exterior and will hold up well on a boat or outside furniture. You can buff and polish it and it looks great. Its an over kill for most of your regular interior cabinetry and it difficult to sand if you are a good finisher you can get the final coat to lay down nicely. The 2800 series doesn’t have the UV inhibitors in it for exterior protection but it is very user friendly and if you really need a hard surface you can catalyze it 25% and it going to be rock hard a table top for instance. Where as you can catalyze it 10% and its going to give you a superior finish that is very hard and very easy to lay down and looks great."

[@rickgledura3194]

I watched your video again using this centurion and I found it really interesting when you go through the delusion process how do you measure out 2 to 3 g of water in say ounces and do you have to use distilled water or a regular tap water Thanks again for a great video

[@HighlineGuitars]

I use a mixing cup. They have the ratios printed on the side so dilution is easy. I use tap water.

[@hethaerto1]

Excellent tutorial. One question: does nitrocellulose allow for better body resonance over poly? Or is there no difference?

[@shidoin5398]

Someone did testing years ago on KZbin with lacquer as well as adding vibrations to the wood to simulate years of playing. If I remember correctly there was no difference. Also when fender did nitro lacquer years ago they did a 2 part polyester primer first. So it wasn't a true lacquer only finish. You might want to fact check that

[@fat-hand]

Amazing in depth comprehensive video as always. Thank you. Questions: Why 1800 series vs. 2800? What filter is in the base of your spray booth? Do you find such a rig attracts dust while spraying?

[@HighlineGuitars]

I use 1800 because that’s what Centurion recommended for this application (guitars). I used a pleated furnace filter.

[@fat-hand]

@@HighlineGuitars Thanks! I ask because I called them to find where I can get the product and bragged about you and your great videos that led me to them. At the time the guy I spoke to recommended 2800, but I will surely default to your choice obviously since you have used it a lot. Thanks!

[@randysummers9228]

Very helpful video. I recently ordered I full batch of CrystaLac products after watch some earlier videos. I will probably try this after that is used up. Are you still using the CrystaLac stains, grain fillers etc. with this product?

[@HighlineGuitars]

Yep!

[@danielvargas3651]

Hey Chris, I’m new on the building guitars scenario and I want to try that product, how can you bought that for testing? Thank you good videos

[@acellett]

Great video. If I do not have a sprayer, can this be applied by hand? Bristle brush or foam brush? If applied by hand, would it need to be level sanded between coats??

[@HighlineGuitars]

You'll have to ask the manufacturer. I only spray.

[@themilkman7172]

Cant wait

[@mattmeyer8279]

Thanks again Chris for paving the way in finishing tech. Any thoughts on humidity when spraying- I know Colorado probably isn't much of an issue but where I live it can get humid. Also will you be using it over color coats?

[@HighlineGuitars]

I used it on days when the humidity was very low and very high (typical Colorado spring) and didn’t notice anything.

[@OldSilkRoad]

Super useful as all of your videos. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. On another note, is that a Strandberg type axe I see hanging behind you?

[@HighlineGuitars]

That's a reject from an old project that I use for finish testing.

[@OldSilkRoad]

@@HighlineGuitars Ah, I see. Which reminds me - I've been meaning to ask you: Do you have some tips on how to remove all finish and paint from a guitar body, and strip it down to bare wood? I've got a Mustang with cracked paint that I would love to refinish, but don't know how to do it. It seems there are two basic approaches: either use a heat gun where you run the risk of scorching the wood; or use a chemical paint stripper. What would you recommend? Better yet, what is your method - assuming that's something you occasionally have to do?

[@pedraw]

the 3 hours between coats kind of kills it for me

[@rodparker4514]

Can you brush it ?

[@isaacgoldenthal6307]

Is this any safer for your health than automotive 2k poly ie spraymax? I thought the isocyanates were the deadliest thing in those 2k polys and if this has isocyanates, thats kinda defeating the health benefits of using water based poly, right?

[@HighlineGuitars]

There are no health benefits to this product or ANY clear coat. However, it isn’t as flammable as a solvent-based 2k polyurethane, so you don’t have to worry about blowing up your shop.

[@isaacgoldenthal6307]

@@HighlineGuitars well, there's health benefits to not inhaling isocyanates

[@HighlineGuitars]

@@isaacgoldenthal6307 and there are even more health benefits to using nothing. I have a feeling you won’t understand that either.

[@isaacgoldenthal6307]

@@HighlineGuitars Sorry if that came off as snarky, it was supposed to be a joke. Thank you for all of the videos you make; you're a huge help to us amateur luthiers.

[@scottmcginley5071]

Have you had any experience with their 400 series? Or when using any 1k coatings have you had rub out/polishing issues? Thanks!

[@HighlineGuitars]

No and no.

[@chrisprochaska7406]

So how much better do you think this is to CrystaLac Brite-Tone? I think that was your most recent favorite clear-coat. Seems like great stuff, though it might be tough to acquire if you're not near one of their distributors. Pros and Cons to everything: that could be the con on this stuff, where CrystaLac is easier to get. Thanks for the informative vid, as always!

[@HighlineGuitars]

You can buy it from annexpaint.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2&zenid=7a2435b79d423a8bcd2853eaea1ab66d

[@chrisprochaska7406]

@@HighlineGuitars Thanks Chris! You rule! Based on a gallon price (for both parts) it seems to cost about the same as CrystaLac. (and would still love to hear/see you compare it to CrystaLac) :)

[@HighlineGuitars]

​@@chrisprochaska7406 Centurion cures in 6-8 hours whereas Brite Tone can take 2 weeks to a month to fully cure. Brite Tone has decent scratch resistance, however, Centurion is way more durable.

[@chrisprochaska7406]

@@HighlineGuitars Awesome. Thanks again, Chris!

[@DeviantGuitars]

@@HighlineGuitars Chris, Thanks for the wonderful review and the link. I can't wait to try this product out. you should pin this link or add it to the description. again thank you for all the information!

[@TomH_YT]

Great episode. I’m curious about the paint roller comment below. I’ve seen that suggested elsewhere. Would it work?

[@HighlineGuitars]

I would never use a paint roller. I’m not saying you shouldn’t, but ask yourself; why don’t the pros use one?

[@rondelio8562]

Great video and good information! But can this product be used for a brush on method? I don't have the spray equipment, save for the compressor. If this isn't a good choice for brush on, what poly product would you recommend? I currently am in love with lacquer and I brush it on with some very nice results, but I also know that diversity in finishes can be a good thing. lol

[@HighlineGuitars]

Keep using whatever works for you.

[@ErebosGR]

Do water-based finishes need distilled water to function optimally?

[@HighlineGuitars]

No

[@alext8828]

Really nice finish. Question. If you're going to level sand and all the rest, why not try applying it with a 2" sponge roller? The finish I get with regular coatings is at least as good as the finish you showed before sanding. You might like that way of doing it.

[@HighlineGuitars]

For the same reason none of the other pro builders use them; the horrific results.

[@alext8828]

@@HighlineGuitars What kind of stupid and insulting answer is that? You don't know what you're talking about. You're creating a finish that you have to cut down and polish. Those finishes are too dry. The spray is drying before it hits the surface. You might have the pressure up too high. Using a roller puts a wet coat on and allows it to level. You don't use a roller because other builders don't use one? You are a complete idiot.

[@RoadkillPinata]

@@alext8828 It's actually not stupid or insulting, he essentially said that using a roller yields horrific results. That seems like a pretty plain and reasonable answer to me. My experience is that using a roller puts down a coating that's a little too heavy and, if the body isn't completely flat and level, the thickness/depth of the coating isn't even upon drying. Not the end of the world because that could probably be sanded enough to be evened out but why do more work than necessary and/or risk having to start over. Also, the heavy coating a roller can give encourages drips and pooling on vertical, curved, beveled, or sculpted surfaces which is tough to remediate..

[@alext8828]

@@RoadkillPinata I think spraying is done for expediency and not because it's a better finish. A guy in a basement or garage doesn't need speed. He's not pumping out high volume. If he knows how to use the right roller he can do the job in half the time without making a mess. I found this out by accident while painting a storm door. There is a technique for both spraying and rolling. Using a roller is perfect for the people that are just starting out and don't need to buy hundreds of dollars worth of equipment. Many spray jobs are preceded by using body filler because the imperfections read thru the thin paint. That's work that might not be necessary with a heavier coat. Rolling doesn't carry the cachet that spraying does, but the final product is at least as good.

[@harrisonmoore9973]

Wish we could get something like this without Isocyanates; that stuff gives me the willies

[@javiervelez73]

Hi Chris, how the scratch resistant compares to CrystaLac Brite Tone?

[@HighlineGuitars]

It has better scratch resistance than Brite Tone.

[@javiervelez73]

@@HighlineGuitars Thanks!

[@TomL-]

What is the pot life of this stuff? I would be concerned about waiting 3+ hours between coats and having to mix every time. What is the smell like? I live in a pretty residential neighborhood, so that's a real concern. Thanks for another great video!

[@justinmdominiak]

The SDS on the website says 2-3 hours.

[@HighlineGuitars]

I mix enough for 2 coats and spray them 2-3 hours apart. It smells like regular 1k WB polyurethane.

[@Andluth]

What was the pot life like in a sealer container? were you able to mix 3 coats (one days worth of spraying) and have it stay spray-able? How much did you mix for 3 coats? Will you try to add color to it for a burst or toner? Thanks

[@HighlineGuitars]

I mixed up enough for 3 coats sprayed 2 hours apart and didn't have any problems. I think as long as you thin it with water for reduced viscosity, pot life can be extended. It can be tinted, so I plan to shoot some color eventually. CIC Coatings also sells a white WB 2k primer that can be tinted for solid colors as well.

[@Andluth]

@@HighlineGuitars Thanks! How much did you mix up for the three coats?

[@HighlineGuitars]

@@Andluth about 60 grams.

[@fulltiltgonzales]

@@HighlineGuitars Thank you for being generous and sharing such specific details for those of us who are actually about to implement this in our own workshops. I was able to find a distributor in California (Valley Wood Coatings), and they fed-ex'd the clear coat and catalyst to me immediately - I got it delivered the very next day. I just didn't know how much product to mix, but now I do!

[@bobfiliczkowski5502]

Did you reduce the poly by a specific percentage with water?

[@HighlineGuitars]

@@bobfiliczkowski5502 no. I use a 2mm needle on my spray gun because it is quite thick.

[@lamarclarrett4718]

Is there anyway to get the same buffing results without a machine

[@HighlineGuitars]

In my experience, no.

[@mikemyers7317]

I thought crosslink, and catalysts were different with that brand?

[@HighlineGuitars]

I think they are, but I haven't investigated the difference myself.

[@mikemyers7317]

@@HighlineGuitars I have found when the option is available to use either or, that the crosslinker with most 2K products has a lot more solids and makes for harder more durable finish in paint, primer, or clear finish. I just do furniture and cabinets but we overlap in our work except for the buffing part. Thanks for your videos. Gonna play with some solarez. Your guitars are beautiful!

[@Mileagex]

Can you use the same for sealer and if so does the mix ratio change to use it as sealer? Also can I use acrylic grain filler or should I only use water based wood filler under the sealer?

[@HighlineGuitars]

I use their sanding sealer since it's formulated to seal and it's easy to sand smooth. You can use any kind of filler, but I prefer water-based so as to avoid surprises.

[@Mileagex]

@@HighlineGuitars im considering water based 2k of type available in my country because I just read in polyester tech sheet about possible explosion from contact between accelerator catalyst... Is the water 2k gloss as good as from poly?

[@MB-zz3bg]

Do you ever have problems with "witness lines" with this stuff? I ask because the nitro guys say nitro is MUCH easier to buff out because nitro fuses together so you do NOT have to worry about cutting through between different coats on the piece you are working on.

[@HighlineGuitars]

No. As I said in the video, witness lines are not an issue since I use a buffing machine.

[@MB-zz3bg]

@@HighlineGuitars I am missing something because I do NOT understand why a buffing machine would change the fact that poly does not fuse together, hence the witness line problem that nitro does not cause. I am NOT trying to argue, but simply understand.

[@HighlineGuitars]

@@MB-zz3bg I don’t know, maybe it’s the friction. All I know is before I had a buffing machine, I couldn’t get rid of the witness lines. After I started using one, they no longer appeared in my finish.

[@matthewpeterson3124]

Since it is waterbased, do you problems with dye bleeding into the finish?

[@HighlineGuitars]

Not if you add a binder to the dye.

[@rickgledura3194]

Which do you prefer the centurion or the solarez

[@HighlineGuitars]

Centurion.

[@tonyflies1]

Can you add any colour to this coating, with the milky colour I’m wondering how to control that.

[@HighlineGuitars]

Yes. Water-based dye or stain can be mixed into it.

[@codprocamp4690]

Review 3K products now please

[@HighlineGuitars]

I'm testing one right now that uses AI to self-apply.

[@codprocamp4690]

@@HighlineGuitars car manufacturers have those hi tech paint booths

[@Overit5000]

So you disassemble, clean gun and rez, and remix a new batch of clear every 2-3 hours per coat? You said empty into another container. Does it keep? Once you mix the catalyst does the mixture have a shelf life to where you can pour it back in for following coats?

[@angusmackay7281]

Doesn't turn yellow or crack? Not for me then :-)

[@r.llynch4124]

Can you tint this with dyes for a paint?

[@HighlineGuitars]

Yep.

[@r.llynch4124]

@@HighlineGuitars Cool, sounds like Solarez grain filler and this should do the trick .For staining Mahogany I'm hoping Solarez for grain filler then a water based stain from Crystalac ,then seal the stain with Solarez again and top coat using this? Thanks a bunch Chris

[@r.llynch4124]

I can't seem to find this in gloss finish on the website. Where do you buy from, the mfg?

[@HighlineGuitars]

@@r.llynch4124 annexpaint.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=139

[@plexibreath]

How would this finish fare in a shootout with the other finish you've used in the past, Crystalac?

[@HighlineGuitars]

It dries and cures way faster and much harder, is a bit more expensive, and requires a top notch respirator due to the isocyanate in the catalyst.

[@edadpops1709]

Does smell like lacquer?

[@HighlineGuitars]

No.

[@dalgguitars]

What tip are you spraying with? the 1.5 or the 1.2?

[@HighlineGuitars]

1.5

[@dalgguitars]

@@HighlineGuitars Thanks so much for the reply!

[@mdyeomans11]

Thank you for the information. I am looking for an online retailer that sells this product. I live in an isolated area in the very north part of New York State so finding it in an actual brick and mortar store is not an option. Did you buy it online?

[@HighlineGuitars]

I told them where I live and they hooked me up with a nearby distributor.

[@chrisprochaska7406]

@@HighlineGuitars I looked at their distributor list and the nearest one to me is Pittsburgh (I'm just west of DC). I'll have to check each of their distributors to see if any sell/mail this stuff. If you come across any online retailers please let us know! :)

[@mbmurphy777]

Do you still use solarez for pore filling?

[@HighlineGuitars]

Yup.

[@dalgguitars]

I have a wenge back plate that I just couldn't seem to get pore filled. Used aquacoat and crystalc and timbermate, nothing seemed to work. Solarez worked in two coats 15 min. But it's not cheap. (my 2 cents)

[@PoohBear31184]

What's the difference in 2-part poly and epoxies? Just chemical makeup?

[@HighlineGuitars]

Heck if I know. I'm a loofyr. Maybe ask the manufacturer.

[@javiervelez73]

@@HighlineGuitars :) LOL

[@wazzap500]

These Premiers are so annoying. I wanna watch the video now. Aint gonna come back in 2 days

[@HighlineGuitars]

You sound like a 5-year-old on Christmas Eve. Even if I didn't post this as a premier, you'd still have to wait until Friday. I post the same time every Tuesday and Friday. Like clockwork.

[@piptyson5512]

Man these tough first world problems really got ya down huh?

[@dalgguitars]

@@HighlineGuitars Thank you for posting regularly. I look forward to your videos.