Ceramic Stones - The Shapton Glass Series Whetstones - A Review by Ben at Crimson Guitars

[@jonlisbon3977]

Just discovered your channel as I was googling Shapton stones. You are a blast. Great to listen to someone who is obviously so passionate about his craft.

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Welcome aboard, and thank you. B

[@donaldhenderson1998]

Hi BenI have owned a set of the Shapton stones for seven years and am well impressed with them. I have just recently worn out my 1000 grit stone and replaced it with the Trend 300/1000 diamond stone. This is not a negative reflection on the Shapton stone but it was the most cost effective way of obtaining the 300 grit option while replacing the 1000 grit stone.A few points from my experience. You do need to flatten these stones after every second or third sharpening. I usually "zone" the stone so that I use up smaller parts of the surface for each tool (not practical for most plane irons but works for chisels etc) thus stretching the time between flattenings. I use the Shapton diamond flattening plate, it is not the fastest though and is slowing down more after seven years of use. However, it is notably flatter than other diamond stones. My purpose in getting the 300 grit Trend stone was to flatten with that - it is wicked fast, then follow up with the Shapton flattening plate to refine the surface. This combination takes seconds to do and encourages keeping the stones flat. By the way, how long did it take to clean up your bench after that halloween stunt?

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

I'll talk to niwaki about the flattening stone, I thought it would be something special! I have the trend 300/1000 diamond stone too and have already used it to flatten the shaptons. I love how tidy they are, both to use and to store. My other water stones are in a big tub that always seems to be in my way.. No more :) What grit shapton do you go to? How about strops etc? The Halloween special was pretty awesome to do, and no mess :) my new apprentice (well, ish.. He'll be starting in about 8 months or so..) he is a very talented fx guy and did all of this on his pc.. We'll have to consider doing more of this sort of thing once he is here full time :)

[@MrTELarson]

I keep a small container or bucket filled with water to rinse off the Shapton glass stones after each use. It also helps keep my hands from cross contaminating the higher grit stones with the slurry from the lower ones. (Posted in wrong place first time, stupid phone.)

[@seanhornibrook]

Please PLEASE remember in about a year to do a followup! How much you like, how often flattened, etc.

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Oh I will, it's already on the video list! There are other comments from people who have had them for 7 years or so and have only just worn through the coarsest stone and he finds he uses the shapton diamond flattener every two or three uses. That is some serious longevity with such a thin stone.

[@shanek6582]

When you use diamond plates to re flatten a ceramic stone, do you have to use a diamond grit approximately the same as the ceramic stone? Seems like the course grit diamond stone the you'd use on a 500 grit would leave course scratches in the 16,000 grit. Thanks

[@powerlinegf]

I recommend lapping Seaton Glass stones after each use. It cleans the surface and prevents them from dishing. They will not dish as fast as other water stones, but there is a slight amount with each use. The finer grit stones have a tendency become loaded, more especially with stainless steels. The more you use your Shaptons, the more you will enjoy them.

[@normanmendonca2834]

You are having way too much fun.....fantastic work, I love those stones, they are so true and that's the way they will stay. Gonna have to get me some.😀

[@cmalc]

I think that darker 8000 grit stone is an 'HC' not an 'HR' like the rest. HC are a little softer for older knife steel.

[@omnisentinel]

This helped me decide if i wanted to invest in these glass stones.. thanks

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Glad to help.

[@donaldhenderson1998]

Sorry, in re reading the below I realize I forgot to mention strops. In my previous sharpening system which topped out at 8000 grit, I usually did strop the tool. However, at 16000 grit and certainly at 30000 grit there is no need and in fact you quite possibly could degrade the edge by rounding over etc. So now I eliminate that step and can easily take shavings with a plane that are 1/2 a thou thick leaving a polished finish. I like to try to finish with a blade rather than abrade the finish with sandpaper as a blade preserves whatever chatoyance beautiful wood has. Neither I nor my spell checker know how to spell chatoyance.Don

[@LFOD7491]

Excellent review! Thanks. Minor suggestion -- if you put a single drop of dish washing detergent in your water bottle, the water will spread more easily.

[@davidbrowning6762]

Hey Ben finally pronounced Arkansas correctly! Awesome!

[@NowahRudolph]

@Ben Crowe, THANK YOU A BILLION TIMES OVER!!!! I have been pulling out my hair trying to find stones of high enough quality for my set of Bob Kramer knives. I will be certainly buying every stone possible, as a chef whom addresses his cutlery with the utmost respect, authority, and dignity it is imperative for my edge to be the sharpest edge possible. I could give you biggest most uncomfortable hug ever for this.

[@-VeDa-]

Hey Ben, i'm about to build my verry first guitar (yes i will get my tools from Crimson Guitars) but how do i best sharpen my tools whitout spending 200€ for stones? In case it ownly stays with 1 guitar. Are those cheap dual stones any good? P.s. I hope you can read my poor english.

[@Andyjpro]

The Lotus effect in action! Really a neat thing.

[@huypham9458]

Can you sharpen a knife on the glass side ?

[@kcb5150]

Re the diamond plates. Diamonds cut sharp, aggressive and deep. When you have stones with alox as the abrasive especially, the binder comes into play. Binder comes into play with most synths. I'm sure you've had an old carborundum hone. While the particle size is a constant in the stone, you can lap the surface with something extremely fine which will get your hone behaving finer than it is. Spyderco hones act very differently when worn in. The 16000 shapton is more like a 12000 with most Japanese waterstones and the 30000 I ~ equal to the suehiro 20000. The 500 cuts faster than most 500 stones but leaves a scratch pattern as tidy as a 1k. For an undamaged razor, the shaptons cut so aggressively, I think I would use the 2000 instead of the 1000. Another amazing 1000 grit hone is the chosera 1000.

[@MontyDodge]

If you used the finer water stones on machine cutting tools i.e. drills, lathes, milling ect, what would happen?

[@colderwar]

+Jon Don It would be a waste of time, those kind of cutting tools have very different edge geometries to woodworking tools.

[@mndlessdrwer]

+Jon Don You have to be very careful sharpening mill cutters and drill bits, as the balance is incredibly important and easy to mess up. For lathes, you can certainly use it to sharpen your gouges and scrapers, but you'll have a hard time sharpening anything that isn't a standard steel. Anything with a carbide cutting edge, you'll probably want a diamond stone to work with, as the ceramic of these stones, while incredibly hard, may not be quite hard enough to do anything to a tungsten carbide cutting head.

[@Roundtablist]

Hi Ben, I've just picked up my own 1000, 3000, 8000 set of Shapton Glass Stones, along with the diamond glass lapping stone - Oh boy, that was a chunk of change to spend all at once! It was based on my own research but your video is what capped it all off and prompted me to pull the trigger. I've watched this video a couple of times but I've not been able to figure out if you think a strop is still necessary if you have the finer stones? I don't mind if I still need to get one, I'd just rather not spend even more on tool sharpening (I've spent over $600 Australian Dollars, and counting!) if I don't need to. Thank you! Sean

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Hey Sean, thanks for your support. I still use my strop but only on carving tools and the odd knife, it really isn't necessary if you have higher grades of the shapton stones. Thing is you can make your own strop with a hard piece of wood and a bit of good leather, the honing compound is about $10 for a small block that will last forever. I would say you should make one, they are just very useful. Have you seen our old video on sharpening gouges yet? That uses raw wood as a shaped strop of sorts and other people use raw mdf with no leather..

[@Roundtablist]

Hello again - Yep, I just re-watched the gouge video. I discovered Autosol in the mid-80s. It's wonderful stuff but I never would have thought of using it as a type of stropping compound - what a great idea. I'll look into making a strop too - have you found the type of leather has much noticeable effect? Should I be looking for a specific thickness and finish? Is there a best way to affix it to the board? Unfortunately, I seem to have followed you into an obsession with vintage planes. In the space of a month I've bought 3 pre-WWII Stanley Bailey sweetheart planes and 2 late 19th century models only to realise I had no way to sharpen them. Until now. I think I have a lot to learn about sharpening things. I appreciate you responding here - I'm a member of the guild (since the Kickstarter - sincerest congrats, btw, you and the CCG clan deserve every success) but thought it would be better to place my question where it was most relevant. Thanks again, Sean P.S. I have 3 other planes hiding in the shed that I got around the same time that the wife doesn't know about yet, I'm biding my time until she buys another 4 pairs of shoes that she doesn't think I've noticed. I'll tell her then. :)

[@mikepugh3102]

M

[@mndlessdrwer]

If you're looking for oilstones, check out some of the synthetic ruby and jade stones. They're just as expensive as the Arkansas stones, but a shade more consistent in their performance. I have two translucent Arkansas oilstone polishing stones, and they're fairly disparate grits. One is around 3000 grit, while the other is closer to 4000. My surgical black Arkansas bench stone performs like a 2500 grit stone. The one thing I will say in their favor, though, is that they are incredibly hard and you are somewhat unlikely to ever wear one down enough that it really needs flattening. Given that I have a decently large collection of sharpening equipment, yet still use abrasive paper when I want something really sharp, I guess I can't say much about having collections of things. If you want a really interesting experience, find some neoprene foam and adhere some wet/dry sandpaper to it and use it as a flexible platen on which to grind a convex edge. I've really come to like that kind of edge for my kitchen knives and utility knives, though it isn't nearly as useful for planes and the like.

[@kcb5150]

+Robert Coffey Arks are graded by specific gravity. The stuff they are mining nowadays is not quite at the level of the old stuff norton and pike were quarrying imo.

[@kcb5150]

The 30000 shapton can be used as final finisher on a straight razor for an extremely low number of laps.

[@marioburgos6508]

What is that in your scul

[@georgeyoung4292]

The Gray stone (8k) is from HC series, the rest is HR..

[@Martinh1999]

Not long ago I had visited a sharpening wonkshop. I had no experience with sharpening stones and I had gread resultes.

[@walterrider9600]

thank you Ben those look like they will do the trick

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

The best sharpening stones I have ever ever experienced.. Plus 10% off through www.niwaki.co.uk just sweetens the pot :) Some filming this I've realised just how awesome it is to not have to leave them in a huge water bath like my other stones, they take up little room and are ready to use with minimal mess. I am in love!

[@timoherker8575]

Where can I buy this stones in Germany?

[@carlosymer]

Dictum

[@brownpedalsbrownpedals4749]

4:30 : Whenever I put a chisel on the bench like that I would have been kicked under my but by my master here in the Netherlands. They taught me to always lay down my chizzel upside down (angel site down tot the bench site)so the surface of whatever you are putting it on does not cause a burr. Is there a reason you are putting them down like this Ben?

[@NeilRobertTurner]

Thanks for this film Ben I couldn't decide between the Robert Sorby machine or the Shapton stones and although the stones are more expensive ( a whole set is like 500 euro) I think I will go with the stones.

[@marcialavine1272]

OMG. I've found another thing I MUST have, and can't afford.

[@justanotherdummy3448]

I didn't need to look at the set need an ambulance if my wife found out I'd bought a set of those.lol

[@kcb5150]

I use a shapton 500 to repair chips and uneven wear on straight razors. It's tremendous. You just have to be careful lapping these so they don't start acting funky

[@abefroman9565]

What do you mean?

[@kcb5150]

Abe Froman you can only lap these on dmt or their own plate or the hone loses a lot of cutting power and starts acting very strange. It is not even a glazing effect either, it's like the abrasive rounds off or something.

[@Wooddragon45]

...hopefully no cheap copies will appear...I play fingerstyle most of the time so someone bought me a glass nail file, which I thought would be rubbish, the ones they sell them in the pound shop last about 3 months at best...the one I was bought cost around 15 and I'm still using it four years later, it's the only file I use now, good enough to finish them off with a bit of 1200 grit wet and dry...so there is a huge difference in ceramics despite them looking basically the same...I'm very interested in these stones, but I'm thinking I might get away with just a single 800 grit...assuming that what I'm sharpening isn't completely knackered...final thought...cut in half with a handle, one would make a fantastic fret levelling file...

[@Steyrshrek1]

Nice review. The 30000 is nice to finish a straight razor with basically gives you the same finish as half micron diamond paste on a strop. I do a 4000, 8000, 16000 on a straight razor then strop with iron oxide and half micron diamond. I only use the 1000 shapton on a damaged razor or one with a terrible bevel. I will eventually grab a 30000 but at $400 + it can wait a bit. Their lapping plate is awesome but expensive too.

[@straightrazorrevolution8578]

shapton stones are the best synthetic stones on the market. period. for applications you use them for, there's nothing that will perform on a higher level. for me, I use them to a point. for setting bevels and bringing my razors to a pre finish edge. at that point I move to Japanese natural stones for finishing. the difference is feel. synthetic edges are super duper sharp and feel on the face very harsh. the Japanese natural stones give a wicked keenness, but the Kasumi finish they make, has a much smoother and buttery feel, while still being as sharp as a light Saber.

[@ferretblack]

Some people talk about owning the whole collection from 120 to 30k. I wonder if it is really necessary to go from 120 grit then to every other stone one by one. That mean like 120, 220, 320, 500, 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, 8000, 10 000, 16 000 and 30 000! Imagine you have to flatten all these stones afterward. The whole process would be crazy long. In my opinion to use a 120, 500, 2000, 16k and 30k would be enough. What you think?

[@tundraotto]

You can skip - some....knowing which ones to skip, for what kind of steel - is where experience comes in.....You could just start and finish with an 8000, and have an awesome edge....but you would never be finished.

[@ferretblack]

That's what I think, about to skip some. I even wonder where people get the idea to use them all. First off it would be super duper long and also I did the math and it would cost about 2000$ to own the full set of stones Shapton offers.

[@tundraotto]

Yes - and every grit you add adds to the fine angle mistakes (often dulling the edge) even the best make while sharpening creating multiple bevels on the edge.....many good sharpeners use only 2 stones for everything but razors....those need the higher grits for smoothness.....not for sharpness. 3 stones is about ideal for most...but which 3 depends a lot on what one sharpens...still usually end up only using two after they have initially established their bevels.

[@ferretblack]

That is really good to know. Thank you for all the informations! I did asked a guy from a sharpening website. He told me that the best way to go, if ones a very perfect edge would be: 500, 2000, 5000, 16k and 30k. Though I wonder if it is even possible to reach the same level of sharpness a straight razor have, with a kitchen knife. So far, I never saw any people posting a video of them being able to cut body hair with normal knife.

[@tundraotto]

16k and 30k are totally a fashion show........a great razor can be honed with proper skill at 10K or even less...for knives even 6k can be just overkill.....check out Murray Carter - he sharpened a spoon and shaved with it....many people have shaved with normal kitchen knives on video.

[@kcb5150]

If you have a translucent Arkansas stone or a surgical black, the best thing to do is true both sides, keep one side periodically roughed up so it cuts and lap the other side up to a 3000 level followed by a session of burnishing the surface with blades, chisels etc till you have the surface acting as a mirror. It will be very very slow, but if you have patience, the result is mind blowing. To finish a straight razor on a trans ark, I need to do 200-300 laps coming from a 12-16k level. A polished ark burnishes more than it sharpens. Seeing as you are in the UK, you should get yourself some charnley forest stones to play with. They are novaculite like arks are but a bit different. Not as consistent of a stone. A lot of charnleys are tool grade only and then you will come across the odd razor grade one that is stupidly fine. You have to be careful with arks though. If you crash your edge into the stone the edge will be destroyed and you have to start over.

[@mndlessdrwer]

+kcb5150 Or, if you know someone with a lapidary wheel and some high-grit lapidary paste, you can legitimately cut it to over 30000 grit pretty easily. If you don't have that kind of thing available, you can still get a similar finish, albeit with a much longer procedure, by using lapidary paste off ebay and a sheet of plate glass. Be sure to use a sheet of glass much larger than your stone, because you'll need to periodically move to a new section and flip the glass over as you abrade it away along with your stone. You can also make sharpening stones out of large pieces of fairly pure agate, jasper, jade, etc.

[@kcb5150]

+Robert Coffey Yeah, but you get to a point where you almost go too far with an ark, even for razors. I go to 3k with grits and then proceed to slurry it with a belgian blue whetstone, followed by a piece of thuringian, followed by a lot of burnishing till it is mirrored. It's more than enough. Chalcedony is a bit odd. It almost behaves better for razors when it has a bit of the sea glass appearance. It seems to glaze inconsistently with use and goes all weird. There are exceptions to this. There is a type of agate/jasper in colorado that retains the matte luster even with extended use.

[@tinman1955]

+kcb5150 What do you use to lap a surgical black Arkansas stone? I've done my soft Arkansas and Washita stones with sand paper or silicon carbide grit but that stuff barely scuffs my surgical black - it'd take weeks.

[@kcb5150]

I would get some 220 grit loose sic and throw it on top of some 120 grit sic wet dry sandpaper on top of polished granite. If you are going to lap an ark on just sandpaper, it will go nowhere wet, you need to go dry so some heat gets into it from friction.

[@kcb5150]

The issue is stones like this are so hard that it breaks down pretty much any grit. You put loose sic on a plate and the 220 gets broken down, the sandpaper straight gets broken down and practically burnished. At least if you use both the coarser stuff below releases and kicks up so you get more mileage. They're horrible to lap but stay true for a long time

[@littlebabycarrotful]

Probably asking way too late to get an answer, but id never heard of a diamond impregnated ceramic flattening stone, has anyone else?

[@justanotherdummy3448]

I'd get a small pair of vise grips to put the small blades. in iv used them to hold single edge rasor blades a lot of times works great.

[@justanotherdummy3448]

they make vise grips about 4 inches long and also needle nose.you can't have too many of those anyway.

[@mfcman2k7]

I was speaking to a sales man fro veritas a few month ago and he had sad there green honing compound is between 1 and 0.5 micron which puts it at the approximation of 15000-60000 grit so for what you ay for a 16000-or even a 30000 grit shapton you can get the same results for say £10

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

I'm working on my own honing compound right now, retail for a medium sized block around £8 will last year's of normal sharpening. My reservation with honing compound etc is the strop, if the leather is not right it can round over the perfect edge you just created.. Too soft or thick had done that to me, not catastrophic and I will still use a strop for the rest of my life, but worth considering.

[@justanotherdummy3448]

my opinion if I were to buy out of all these systems they would be. the pro edge belt sander and the shapton stones .that's all you would need as I say in my opinion

[@brianb.2894]

A great video . Thank you.

[@jamesmcintyre348]

Speaking to Ramon, who criticized Crimson for his tattoos. You shouldn't find fault with people's or their tattoos. Their already so insecure already. They need our comfort and support. And directions to a tattoo removal clinic. You should also understand Crimson is a talented guitar maker working in a damp and moldy basement where his health is at risk.

[@gmsnow4370]

the reason for the higher grit IS for razors and swords.....The Japanese make a decent sword from what I'm told.....

[@MarcJennings]

Lovely, aren't they? :)

[@adrianlivesey6863]

ben ill give it a go the video was enthuiseastic to say the least nice to meet you from ade a proper butcher

[@olliranto6330]

12000 grit is good for straight razors

[@AltMarc]

Ben, you should be considering to make "gives aways" specially with the tools which are "given" to you for "testing".

[@marioburgos6508]

Yeah

[@robertlove8429]

Wow! I really wanted to watch this video... I made it 4 minutes

[@menofsticks]

He's not dead anymore.

[@littlearsehole75]

It's a Halloween Miracle!

[@kenrickarthurs]

Hi Ben....i need one.....AAAAHHHHHHH. My oil stone's take's me age's to use and they are messy....Tidy mun for the vid...

[@justanotherdummy3448]

as far as drill bits buy a drill doctor they have a few different models and there not that much.

[@gonzalomiranda7335]

Joe much ITS wonderful Stones!?

[@oldfart9287]

I have several shaptons and they all wear remarkably fast got the glass and the pro waste of money, prefer diamond stones by far

[@justanotherdummy3448]

I looked up the prices lot those stones and I won't be buying any tyvm.the 8000 grit stone by it self was $149.00

[@I..cast..fireball]

1000 grit is enough for me

[@MrHotmoses]

Do you you even have time to spend with the family ?

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

There are 4 major facets of one's life. Family, career, health and a social life. Most people can only really excel at two of the four. I have a terrible social life and my health is also not what it should be but I have a job I love and truly enjoy and also have, finally, managed to set time aside from work for my kids.. Who needs friends anyway when I have you guys in Internet land and health? Bah humbucker. I'm happy :)

[@MrHotmoses]

+Crimson Custom Guitars That's awesome :) and i think you have a good understanding of life. You cant do evrything it's as simple as that :) Have a good Day m8!:) And you dont need to train to be healthy. but dirty is fast :)

[@justanotherdummy3448]

and that is the cheap set you have there .they make some little cheaper and 2 sided stones but too expensive for me.

[@Niamhcotts]

I use 1200 3000 that's it.

[@GregsGarage]

What??? No blood and gore on this one??? :D

[@bozoedge]

If James Bond honed he would use these

[@Ray-gu5kp]

Dud you should work in a circus!

[@yesman8490]

i had to stop after the 3rd time you sound so over impressed with black cardboard box. I can already tell how you will rate these

[@marioburgos6508]

Skull

[@738polarbear]

WTF is wrong with all these "men" who are fightened to tell their wives if they buy something . ? You don't have to abuse a lady but to be frightened to tell her you bought something expensive is crazy .

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

I think it's fear of the 'if you get that I can get this' reply... 20k handbag anyone? B

[@peatbogfaierie]

...is it proper if I'm slightly aroused by these sharpening videos ? :P...great work Mr Ben !

[@smashallpots1428]

atleast im not alone

[@pgreenx]

wtf

[@CrimsonCustomGuitars]

Fantastic stones, still my favourite how ever many years on.. B

[@jaimeclifton9078]

You look stoned.

[@meno3633]

you do know he is diabetic right?

[@jaimeclifton9078]

Andres Mena I didn't say he was stoned I said he looked stoned. However Im unaware of any reason diabetes has on stopping one smoking weed. To preempt your reply: yes I'm aware of how a person can look drunk/stoned when they have diabetes....

[@TubeOzaurus]

Dear fella, what are those signs on your head? Are they satanic markings? If not, what are their significance? Sorry about my curiosity, I've got here trying to find out about Shapton, but I fel asleep and when I woke up couldn't remember anything else than asking myself why you painted yourself like this...

[@onpsxmember]

Some Tribal stuff...Ben grew up in south africa.