CGC Reholder Scam: When Did it Start?!?

[@ddougherty8266]

This is great. And this is exactly what CGC should be telling us - Your and Dave's observation on the number of 9.8's may be another red flag here. As to why are some of this guys submissions not included - My gut says that this list is only his re-holders - if you look up a little bit in the list to a previous grouping, you can see that the ones that are missing might be the "real" 9.6 or 9.8 that the scammer chopped out from the slab and the inner sleeve that he is now using to get re-submitted? What would be interesting to see is all the dates of submissions. Think about this... 350 comics... plus another 150 that aren't listed? Just a guess. 500 comics times perhaps $150 per book in CGC fees?... that's $75,000 in CGC fees - which CGC gladdly lapped up - did this guy, due to the volume of business get special handling at CGC to keep him happy? Hmmm? As to the value of the 350 books - let's assume it's $1.5M. Given that the grades are bogus - thhe underlying cost or true value may have been only $250K? So the gain, over 4 years... may have been $1.25M. Soo... someone was making $262K a year by selling just 100 comics books a year, for four years? And we're wondering if someone / anyone else may have been doing this?

[@briannorman952]

Very valid comments and I have to agree there’s way more in question here

[@johnnydropkicks]

The thing is, the scammer didn’t necessarily have to get the books reholdered. The list is just of comics that were reholdered.

[@jheggemeyer]

Exactly, immaculate comics was putting the slab back together and it looked pretty good, and could easily pass as legit with some practice, without requiring reholder

[@Geoffreydarcy-pv4mq]

Thanks for reminding. That's huge.

[@Asian_Connection]

CgC would never volunteerly disclose additional scam if they found it because this will create additional distrust. It's really up to the comic community to identify it.

[@jamisonlm3]

Honestly, every cgc slab that person has sold should be suspect now. This whole thing screams of an unpatched software exploit. With cgc seemingly not even trying to check books being sent into them, just grading/reholdering them and then shipping them back out. What a can of worms this whole situation is.

[@mildomiller7386]

Ryan great job as always. Appreciate all the hard work and informing the community. It's a shame people have to be childish. You seem like a person who would give credit were credit is due. It's logical that with this many people looking at it people would come to the same conclusions at different times unknowing of the other. Some people just need to chill and grow up.

[@DocReasonable]

CGC are the culprits here. They enabled this to happen by not having any process in place for inspecting or even _looking at_ books that came in for reholdering. They're supposed to be the gatekeepers against scammers -- the whole reason they exist is to prevent grading fraud. There needs to be a class action lawsuit against CGC...everyone who's ever purchased books slabbed by them is a potential victim of their criminal negligence.

[@thomaspalmer6453]

I wouldn’t just blame CGC for this. In any business like this there will always be bad actors who will find a way to pull off their schemes. There are all kinds of fraudulent items from coins to Rolex watches. CGC certainly could have done more to help prevent this fraud, but at least the company will finally take steps to put a stop to it.

[@Trademark.comics]

I sent in a REAL New Mutants #87 CGC 9.8 NS to be re-holdered from an old case which was almost splitting open down one side. I didn’t want CGC to think that I had been tampering with the case (which I hadn’t), so I resealed it with a tiny bit of super glue. Came back in a brand new case with exactly the same grade. I’m sure this is not the first time that some of us genuine collectors have actually carried out minor repairs to preserve the quality of the case, new or old!

[@thomaspalmer6453]

Ryan, I’m with you on having more clarity about how CGC compiled this list. Are this these just the books that this scammer had re-holdered, or are they all the books the scammer submitted. I think CGC needs to update this list and let the collecting community know if there are more fraudulent books in the wild. Man, this is one nightmare for CGC and the collecting community. CGC needs to be completely transparent about this. It does may me wonder if the scammer had an accomplice within CGC.

[@DocReasonable]

Great analysis! Pretty sure CGC had no system whatsoever for detecting or raising any red flags.

[@rlewis5696]

Ryan, thank you very much for your extra nerdy video. let us hope that CGC takes the information you’ve provided to heart!

[@yanmcrae6106]

Look at the huge number of ASM 300 and you know this has been going on for awhile. Also, no way this is isolated to one person, the list came out fairly rapidly because it was related to one person but you know that they are now looking for other people or other accounts and the WILL find more, a lot more. Comic boom was fuel to this dumpster fire of a situation!

[@vinniwhitlock7080]

Hopefully there is only one guy BUT if there is one mouse in your house there are usually MICE in your house

[@RobRVA]

Same for roaches 🪳

[@pk3739]

Same for stink bugs here in the Midwest 😂

[@comicfanagain8405]

You are like Sherlock Holmes with this stuff. God knows how many shadow 9.8s of 194/238/300 are out there. Honestly you must feel like a genius collecting only golden age books! Thanks Ryan for investigating!

[@comicbossone2411]

“Shadow 9.8s” is that what we’re calling them? I like it. Cgc will probably try to market it as a “shadow variant”. Lol Seriously though, we have to assume the problem is wider than one individual. I think we’ve suspected this for a long time but now we have seen that our emperor (CGC) truly has no clothes.

[@stancartmankenny]

it would be nice if someone would go through these serial numbers and add in the missing ones, including issue title, etc., since all of them are suspect. cgc ought to be giving refunds or at least free regrading on all of the books submitted by this person, not just the ones on the list.

[@troygard5195]

Don’t worry about those sad Sally’s everyone that really follows your channel knows just by how detailed you are about all these random comic topics an all time you take to prep for your book break downs. Stay proud brother, you make great content!

[@shonuff0330]

I just looked up my ASM 194 and it has a SN on the list, but the list number ends in 003. Definitely part of the same submission. I checked the book, and never noticed the back, but has blue splotches here and there. Very upset right now. I do thank you for bringing light to this scam. I just submitted a fraud alert to CGC with this book. We'll see what happens.

[@shonuff0330]

Quick update on my situation. I submitted a claim with photos citing the same submission as one of the listed serial numbers. CGC responded saying they reviewed my photos and there is no indication that this book has been impacted. Sigh of relief for me, but I feel awful for those that this impacts.

[@brute_nm]

If CGC has everyone's submissions in a single big database (like SQL), they could have automated queries do the work for them. Find old potential issues as well as catch future ones. Here's to hoping

[@AutomaticComics]

For sure. It should be a pretty easy thing to set up on their side.

[@RobRVA]

It's the KZbinrs like you who are making CGC even take any notice and accountability at all. Ignore the jerks and keep on the trail Ryan.

[@ronaldbourgeois1255]

Ryan love the thorough research and information you’ve done.Makes it easy to understand.

[@AutomaticComics]

Appreciate it 👍

[@peterthornton8814]

Thanks a lot man for doing all this! Really appreciate it. And I enjoyed learning about pivot tables!

[@317tempest]

I'm new to cgc, I've just bought a few over Christmas. I noticed two of them that are dodgy. One is a red label 9.0 spectacular spiderman #1 and the whole left side completely comes apart enough to get the graded comic out... another was a blue label timeless #1 8.5 but one corner doesn't fit and is stuck almost open but there is also a mark as if its been melted together at the side. I came on here cause I tried looking to see if anyone had similar issues. Seems its already everywhere. I won't buy anymore cgc and I'm worried about selling stuff that's dodgy now

[@Dev003x]

I am pretty positive this has been going on much longer and much bigger then we think.

[@comicbossone2411]

Wow… so for those trying to minimise the impact by saying it’s a tiny amount…. Yeah of the total market perhaps. If you’re in the market for an ASM 300 you might think differently. At least a 5% risk and that’s on the assumption it’s only one guy. No thanks, I’m out. No way I’m paying over raw prices for a slabbed book with a high minimum risk and an unknown depth of risk. Another exceptionally good video. Beware, the investment protectors will not like you amplifying this, pay no attention, you are doing the community a great service.

[@ddougherty8266]

Exactly - Automatic Comics and Dave from Comic Investments are two dealers who are not marginalizing the scope and the implications of this. Most dealers did that aggressively at the start - and have been dialing it back - but are now using phrases like "Do your due diligence" when buying a CGC slab. I respect people, but that is bad advice. In my opinion, we cannot trust any slabs that are for sale, or any that we bought that are in our collections. The only slab that I am sure of are ones where I sent the book in raw, and even those are trustworthy only to me... no one else can trust mine, and I can't trust theirs - because anyone could be fibbing or forgetful as to how they got them. I have been on the hunt for a big FF Key - in around a 6.0. Have been keeping my eye on a few of them online for sale. Someone (a dealer) earlier told me that I "should do due diligence" before I buy a CGC slab. How could I "do due diligence" on a sealed (supposedly) CGC 6.0 that I'd buy for $25,000 and feel certain that it doesn't have color touch, or a coupon cut, or scribble throughout the interior of the book? How do I do my "due diligence" online, or in person.. when I know, for a fact, that CGC slabs are easily opened - and it's possible that the book inside this CGC slab was switched out with a $2500 book. HOW? Not trying to be argumentative - but I can't go off of reputation, and feedback ratings... the seller may be unaware. ... and this is undetectable. On the other hand... If the book is NOT in a CGC slab... I'd be able to spot restoration, missing coupons, color touch, married pages - at LEAST as well as the people at CGC. A CGC slab is a now a liability that hides potential flaws.

[@comicbossone2411]

@@ddougherty8266 100% agree with this. You sound old school to me. Slabs (not religiously against them) have encouraged lots of new collectors to come into the hobby quickly, if your collecting predates this or you have been a raw buyer for a few years you have built up your knowledge and experience of assessing and grading the books in front of you. “Do your due diligence”? Why am I having to now do the same protocols and assessment I would for a slabbed book as o would for a raw only with the book being harder to do that with (given it’s in plastic) and paying a premium for over the price of a raw book. I would not touch a slab (advising the general market) for the next few months as prices may be volatile and you don’t know what you’re getting (the latter won’t change) but me personally I can’t even see me ever buying a slabbed book again. I have seen some well known KZbinrs writhing the community come out effectively shilling for cgc and it’s a massive disappointment. Most of it seems to stem from the fact they either have good relations with the people there or are over exposed investment wise to slabs. I’ve always said you’re buying the book not the plastic. The extent of the shilling is actually quite disgusting, the arguments are disingenuous trying to pass it off as a percentage of total books ever slabbed rather than the money books like ASM300 which the scammer and the market trends towards and resulting in a much higher percentage risk if you are in the market for those types of key books. Trying to suggest we should take into consideration books like green lantern #12 from the early 90’s (a nothing book but it has been slabbed) is ridiculous. I Unsubbed all those types straight away as nothing that comes out of their mouths can be trusted. Yes the KZbinrs and dealers you mention are all looking very trustworthy and they will keep me as a viewer/customer. Nice to see someone really gets it. Stay well, my friend.

[@lukechernesky]

some 45 y/o was throwing a fit cause he thought he was getting squeezed 😬🤣 “GIvE mE CrEdIT!” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@Silverspidey18]

Excellent insights Ryan. Sounds like CGC needs a “Risk and Assurance Manager” on staff to protect their brand. I would hope CGC are running similar reports looking for red flag submissions that require a deeper dive. Are you the Comic Book PI 🕵️📓 CGC has hired? I’d watch CBPI.

[@AutomaticComics]

CGC has not reached out to me 😂.

[@Silverspidey18]

@@AutomaticComics too bad, you’d have to grow a moustache and get a Ferrari. Anyways, always enjoy your videos…thank you!

[@geekimusprime]

CGC definitely doing some damage control. Appreciate them responding, but I don’t like how they’re asserting that it was just one individual. Mind you, it was the community that discovered the scammer, not CGC. They obviously don’t want people to lose trust, so I doubt they’re looking hard for other scammers.

[@batdadwholaughs]

You absolutely earned my follow with this. Anyone questioning this data immediately goes on warning watch. Who is their related account/business. No question here.

[@brucecree9170]

Love it! First time I have ever seen an Excel pivot table in a comic book UTube video. Awesome. 🎉

[@marineboy1964]

Is there someone else involved on the inside perhaps?

[@michaelroot1960]

He wasn’t the only one that figured this out. Thousands of slabs is closer to the truth.

[@CosmicTrekker]

I've been a victim of KZbin's auto-delete of comments several times. Sometimes it's because I'm an idiot and try to give proof of what I'm saying by giving a helpful URL. lol. Other times it's probably because I type like a bot. 🤣 And I love the use of Excel. Every comic "investor" should be using it, if for no other reason to see how much you're *really* paying for for a comic book at auctions when paying a buyer's premium. LOL. I miss playing with Excel, SQL and Python now that I'm retired. Great video as always!

[@AutomaticComics]

This one didn’t get removed 👍 lol.

[@CosmicTrekker]

@@AutomaticComics Yeah, I try to avoid url's and dollar amounts now. LOL.

[@johnwycough1955]

Even if you're covering something from a forum I don't go to that forum I come here so to me it's the first time I'm hearing it and that's how I like to do it. Keep on keeping on

[@6nosis]

Im done slabbing my books until they make the slabs untamperable. DONE!! ITS BULLSHIT

[@6nosis]

Raw dog all day just like one night stands. This is ABSOLUTE f*ckery AND ID BET 5 figures there's 3 peeps at LEAST two guys on the inside with one guy stays home and they been r*ping us. As a matter of fact i would not be surprised if it was the head manager!!!Seriously thats YUUUGE money bro took it apart in SECONDS. Captain DUNBAR. Rant off- awesome new channel bro i wish much success for you going forward... 66

[@jamesross824]

I buy raw never bought into the grading hype.I appreciate you trying to explain the facts of what actually happened.

[@pcorey182]

It just keeps getting worse and worse with cgc I hope they can fix this problem and people will trust them again as I have a lot of books great advice did you see that I've gotten graded myself and purchased and I know a lot of other people also have lots of books by cgc and if you don't have trust in the grade or the product that makes every graded book just a nice holder to display and the grade means nothing now maybe class action lawsuit will take place I guess time will tell but I feel I've been cheated and deceived By cgc for the lack of security on their cases I mean really a heat gun in a few minutes and you can slip one book out for another makes every book potentially a scam

[@T.R.R.Jolkien]

No one is held accountable nowadays

[@pcorey182]

I'm glad I did not get my Hulk 181 graded yet I was about to get graded at the beginning of the new year has any Hulk 181 has the potential of missing the coupon so unless you have a raw copy you don't know for sure cases are upgraded and more secure I would not feel comfortable having a graded copy of Incredible Hulk 181

[@huntincomics]

How can anyone buy any slabs at this point? Anyone can swap books at home. CGC screwed us all big time. It's not about one scammer, or the reholder scandal, it's about CGC knowingly putting out a case that can easily be tampered with.

[@AutomaticComics]

Honestly I disagree with this sentiment. I’m still buying books. There’s a difference between the ability to switch something and it actually happening. Also, it needs to be a situation where there is enough value to be made by doing it and that there are sufficient donor books available. While I think this is a serious issue that needs to be addressed, I also think there is an overreaction going on with the impact as well.

[@huntincomics]

@@AutomaticComics we don't know how often it is happening. But we don't need to know. The doubt is established because literally anyone can do it. It's like playing Russian roulette. I have books that are really tough to get in 9.8, and also have a huge jump in value from 9.6 to 9.8 (thousands of $'s). How can I sell those books in the future? There's enough doubt now in people's minds that they 1. won't buy them or 2. won't pay up for them. This is a big problem for us going forward. Perhaps because you deal with rarer comics this may not affect you as much, but for most of us, this is a nightmare.

[@DocReasonable]

100% agree with you on this. We've been seriously screwed over by a company we thought had integrity, security and competence. @@huntincomics

[@sjhutchinson880]

I find it very hard to believe this was one person, after seeing the sheer amount of how many of the same books were having this done there HAD to be someone on the inside helping out.. it makes no sense otherwise how this could go on for so long without some assistance from within. Many years ago when grading first started I said one day something bad was gonna happen and now it has, there is no telling how many books this has been done too and there is no way to know if anyone else has been doing it as well.. hell there could be dozens of scammers out there that have figured out how to do this or have been working together on this scam and have been doing it for years as well. CGC should have NEVER allowed books to be sent in and "re-holdered" without checking to make sure the correct book was being sent in for the swap.. and yes that means at the very least double checking that the graders notes matched the book they were swapping out. Of course it all makes more sense that this scam went on for this long if there was someone on the inside giving the "assist" which I will not be shocked to hear was the case... This could very well wind up being a scam into the tens of millions of dollars if not more and now you will never be able to trust a CGC graded book is actually the true graded book that was submitted in the case. I have always said grading was a waste of time and money, "MOST" comic dealers are perfectly capable of evaluating a book and being able to determine a proper grade for that book, this hobby never needed to put it's faith into these companies to come back and say "yes, your local comic shop gave this a 9.4 and we agree it's a 9.4, pay us some good money and now your book is worth double, triple what it was worth before we looked at it" People should have only used them to slab the books to prevent any future damage and those books should have been encapsulated with no way of re-opening them period. This is gonna make the PGX problems look like kids stuff now... actually it could make PGX the number 2... I expect both CBCS and PGX are gonna start getting flooded with books going forward.. hope they are prepared. CGC needs to start offering free regrading and slabbing to anyone who has a slab they didn't personally submit for the last ohhhh.. what 15 years maybe or longer.. That's the only way they are coming back from this smelling clean... My 2 Cents..

[@pipedocrusso4371]

why have they not released the name of this person or his store

[@ConlinsComics]

Dont know if it is another scam or an honest mistake by CGC, but im currently looking to buy a Captain Atom 83, the 1st appearance of Ted Kord Blue Beetle, and there is the original which came out in 66 and a reprint from 77 i believe. There is a 6.0 currently listed that is clearly the reprint but the case not only does NOT state reprint but it also has 66 listed for the year 🤔

[@ConlinsComics]

And everyone that sees this be careful. I messaged the seller today but the listing is still currently live.

[@ScarecrOmega]

Comics Den recently got the reprint but thought it was the original until after he made the video.

[@ConlinsComics]

Its that excitement of finding one that blinds you to the details at first. But just to UPDATE, it appears the seller on ebay has now taken down the listing 👍

[@PaulieEsther]

Do you think the missing books had graders notes on them so they were afraid they'd get caught if they reholdered those?

[@TK_junction]

Cannot believe that anyone would give you any grief. Thats just wrong.

[@Petemarie186]

Here's a question, where does Ebay and the various auction houses that many of these books were sold stand in this fiasco?

[@mightycomicsandcollectibles]

This leaves the question ….58 copies of ASM 194 in 9.8 from 1 submitter …. This is gross negligence on CGC’s part or someone there was in on it….. but we will never know

[@AutomaticComics]

I’m just guessing they didn’t have anything in place to check for outliers like this with submitters. Hopefully this was the warning shot that they need to implement protocols like that. For a company with the kind of money they have, that should be simple.

[@pipedocrusso4371]

with cgc saying they have done 85 million books there is no way only one person was doing this

[@kennythecomiccollector]

Detective Ryan on the case again and doing some great work! 👍🏾😀

[@contamino7476]

Dont worry about the small fish.. Most will agree , the videos are always informative and entertaining. Appreciate you sharing it with us

[@comiccollex958]

Ryan, interesting to see if any long term selling accounts have suddenly shut downn on eBay. That might be another red flag to look at….

[@317tempest]

They need to print in Brailes type printing on the actual plastic surrounding the comic the cert numbers.

[@davecrossley5918]

could the unlisted books be the ones pulled from the legit cases getting sent back in "raw" for grading?

[@sassysteveartist]

CGC should 100% be giving you a blank cheque to employ you full-time

[@brightnewage7491]

If CGC can implement no reordering without re grading and new examination of all recording books submitted, then that would give us collectors more security and safety, knowing the list of books in question, we have a guide line to be aware of those on the list, in addition CGC would have to redesign or add more security to the slabs

[@kenmason1461]

Thanks for sharing the information Ryan your sharing good information all positive as far as I'm concerned

[@jeffschmitt6977]

Just wanted to say Thank You for your great effort as I know how long it takes to do some of the research you are doing. Not easy and I know, a lot of looking, cross referencing, and correlation needs to be done before you bring your videos. Dedication as well. I only worry a bit if collectors only turn to start collecting the new slabs and leaving the old. It kinda makes sense given human nature. But again, Thanks for a great effort, and dedication!

[@pk3739]

No way am I as a buyer/collector will be paying top dollar for old slabs.its new or nothing for me now.

[@Geoffreydarcy-pv4mq]

Honesty in the comic book community, isn't as common as we'd like to believe. Trust is a fragile truce, between natural competitors. Predators by nature, all.

[@300baud]

They should definitely have already been analyzing data for concerning patterns. However, that is still just an after-the-fact security measure -- they also still need to update the security measures for their slabs to make this kind of scam not so easily accomplished by anyone with a heat gun and some glue.

[@richhistory4124]

Agreed on the security, also training and oversight, But how do you know it was heat gun and glue? why not even easier, like just send in a damaged holder for custom label, said employee might be average joe that A either doesn't care, fails to inspect to see if book was removed or B in on it to begin with, I mean that would be good reason to get a PI, they did, and they said the PI would review the "system", why the system? I assume because the scam wouldn't fool someone if you really followed all protocol, the fact remains these are just basic employees, letting a cracked case at both bottom corners through sounds too easy, especially when you see books upside down or wrong issue numbers, I mean books in wrong holders, how does this happen? It happens because you have to put trust in people that might just be in it for a paycheck only or after time get real lazy. I think this will be a positive going forward, and I don't think a perfect sealed holder was even needed or even possible.

[@300baud]

@@richhistory4124 tbh, the holder itself is more about protection and presentation rather than security. However, the inner well needs to be protected. Something like having the outer edges of the inner well connected to the outer case in such a way that if it is removed it becomes obvious.

[@ddougherty8266]

Hey - Can you help me on a question. I understand the CGC re-holder scam AND the "CGC slip in a lower copy" scams. But there are lots of CGC Signature Series books on CGC's list of bad books. Question... How can a signature series book have been scammed? In order to either of the first two methods to work, a book, still sealed in the inner well, has to be pulled out of the slab. In the "slip in a lower-grade copy" version of the scam, the lower-end copy would be put in the higher-graded slab's Yellow Label slab - Right? And the higher graded book that was removed from the CGC slab is cut out from the inner sleeve and sent in to CGC, as a RAW. RIGHT? Well, if a signed, Signature Series book is removed from its holder and it's inner sleeve, and sent in Raw, to get graded... it wouldn't get a new Yellow label... it would just get "signed, by someone, who we can't verify" note on a Blue CGC Label - or even a Green Label. Right? The financial gain from the scam disappears if the higher-graded Signature Series book is taken out of its inner sleeve - Right? Maybe (and I just thought of this... drumroll)... the perpetrator is sending the real, true, high-grade signed book to CBCS - who is certifying the signature and giving it a Certified Signature label? Thoughts?

[@AutomaticComics]

Being on the list doesn’t mean it’s necessarily a scam book. Just that they need to re-evaluate it. My guess is that they were reholdered by this guy so they’re on this list. The signature series ones seem super difficult to scam because if you need a signature series copy to start with, you will lose that yellow label on the signed book. Your only real option at that point is either selling it raw or using cbcs signature verification which sell for less than the CGC witnesses signed books. I think it’s likely the signed books are safe. But who knows.

[@ddougherty8266]

Cool - Thanks - I agree - that makes sense! It's like peeling an onion. But we're on the same page. I think CGC could be doing a much better job explaining what the list means and being transparent as to their process. I also think they know a lot more about this than they're saying - and they're trying to contain it, or they're being led by their attorneys (who are generally terrible at business and common sense - lol) or law enforcement is involved and doesn't want other perpetrators to get spooked - who knows? With as many fans as there are, I can't see how this gets contained and I think it's going to be death by a thousand cuts, as the saying goes. @@AutomaticComics

[@47comcom]

Ill float the question to you and the audience: how many books have you ever submitted for Re-Holder? Ive done ONE, for a badly broken case, and 2 or 3 mechanicals, over the past 7 years. This person SOMEHOW found a soft spot in cgc's business process. A very soft spot. That he hit very very often at a very high level. CGC better be looking internally at processes and ...resources.

[@testit1902]

The person most have been using fast track but I do want to put in some work to figure out their cycle time for regrading the real 9.8s to generate the cases. I am assuming the list is reholder submissions, with a focus on custom label reholders, which was likely the exploit. Current era slab on custom label reholder submissions CGC probably were not even opening the inner well to save time

[@JBill]

Ryan giving training sessions on pivot tables was not on my 2024 bingo card! Great stuff! There absolutely should have been checks in place to make correlations on individual submissions vs total percentage of census. Owning 10-12% of the total number of 9.8s is a huge red flag, especially on books older than, say, the past 5-10 years. It is odd that the list skips over certain books within orders they sent in. Seems like those should be identified as well. Feels like something is up there?

[@AutomaticComics]

lol. I was definitely not planning to do that either.

[@johnmoran6418]

Great stuff Ryan 👏

[@DocReasonable]

There's a guy on eBay who's recently sold 3 x page #10s from Hulk #181. That is the page with the MVS stamp... but the stamp is missing on every one of the pages this guy has sold! He gets about $40 per page anyway. So the seller is obviously trimming these page 10s with missing MVS from Hulk #181s. Is he doing this so he can submit the #181s to CGC and they (being clueless) don't notice the missing page/stamp?? BTW, I raised this on the CGC forums and was banned soon after.

[@sharporigami5216]

When is the scammer going to get revealed? Guessing no one wants to get sued.

[@ericchang3531]

this assumes he used one ID , like to know how many submission accounts he used?

[@SBAVoltronProdt]

Thanks Ryan from Automatic Excel Tips 😂

[@AutomaticComics]

That’s what I’m here for 😂

[@iranirenberg]

Love the "nerdy" videos!

[@Omnivorous1One]

i would think that this person is not the only person to ever do this. the list of books has to be larger. i think cgc doesnt want to look into everything that guy ever submitted they are only looking at things that were reholstered.

[@setaside2]

I hope CBCS suddenly finds themselves far better treated by the community after all this. I'm wondering why I should continue to trust CGC at all. Just went in to one of my favorite local shops (shout out to Hall of Justice, Parker, CO) who've a ton of slabs on their wall. How many can I trust?

[@ddougherty8266]

You can't trust any of them. I have been on the hunt for a big FF Key - in around a 6.0. Have been keeping my eye on a few of them online for sale. Someone (a dealer) earlier told me that I should do due diligence before I buy a CGC slab. How could I do due diligence on a CGC 6.0 that I'd buy for thousands of dollars and feel certain that it doesn't have color touch, or a coupon cut, or scribble throughout the interior of the book? How do I do my "due diligence" online, or in perseon.. when I know, for a fact, that CGC slabs are easily opened - and it's possible that the book inside this CGC slab was switched out with a $500 book, and that the scammer is good enough that it's undetectable. HOW? Not trying to be argumentative - but I can't go off of reputation, and feedback ratings... the seller may be unaware. ... and this is undetectable. On the other hand... If the book is NOT in a CGC slab... I'd be able to spot restoration, missing coupons, color touch, married pages - at LEAST as well as the people at CGC. A CGC slab is a now a liability that hides potential flaws.

[@jheggemeyer]

​@@ddougherty8266that's a tough situation to be in right now. Best bet would be to find a neutral 3rd party to act as an escrow service, they crack it out and inspect, then resubmit to cgc assuming you want it slabbed still. That would put a lot of risk on the seller so might be tough convincing them, but also might weed out someone acting shady.

[@jheggemeyer]

As so many have pointed t, this is one guy who got busted because he was sloppy, just imagine gow many others are out there and being smart about it. I dont think a buyer can trust any of these higher value, highly popular books right now. Until the grading companies redesign holders so they cant be so easily manipulated, i would tread lightly when buying slabbed books.

[@clelandwarrenjr850]

How dare you say hulk 181 I said hulk 181 in you video what the hell ryan lol thank for all you work in this it's fantastic ps I Am ONLY KIDDING

[@comicbossone2411]

Ryan, is there any way for you to track the impact of all this on sales of slabbed books? Either through eBay or by talking with the dealers. I really think in the short term this will lead to a switch in buying from slabbed to raw at least in the immediate short term.

[@jarrettreynolds4560]

Quit taking them to CGC and get them graded somewhere else.

[@miguelh4750]

Ignore those coward forum members that attack you. Let's see them have a YT channel and put in the time and effort to make these videos. Carry on Ryan !!!

[@pk3739]

Ignorance is bliss. I mean, do comic folks REALLLYYYY wanna know everything that’s phony in their cases?

[@tonyhiland-js4dt]

its interesting you bring this up. i watched drews video at como comics and his video gave me an idea.i commented the idea on his video. i could be wrong but i noticed that so far the majority of the books in question seemed to heavily favor venom/black suit spiderman. and the gambit xmen issue. around 2021 or so the venom movie was out. there would be previews beforehand for the movie and of course the first mention of the movie but i wondered if the scammer chose those books based on the spike once the venom movie was out. and gambit. there were rumors about the gambit movie but i cant remember how far back that went. the reason i think this is because, why so many spiderman 300? and black suit related spiderman books? is it because they were easy to move? is it because the profit margin from mid to higher grade was bigger? i saw there was a tmnt 1 in there too. why not xmen 101? maybe it was movie related. xmen 101...xmen apocolypse was in 2016... why first gambit? there are news articles dating back to around 2021 about the gambit movie rumors. i could be completely wrong but i just wondered why there were more of some books with similar themes than others.

[@AutomaticComics]

I think it was probably largely availability and profitability based on the price gap between a 9.4/9.6 and a 9.8. Plus the availability of qualified label copies. ASM 300 is the most graded book on the entire census. There are tons of them and they sell all the time. So there are tons of books available to swap in. I think it’s generally that simple. A lot of people keep saying there’s no way one person could get this many copies of ASM 300. I disagree. It’s really easy to get that many copies of that book. ASM 194 also has a big profit margin jumping from 9.4/9.6 to 9.8 so that makes a lot of sense too. ASM 238 got really hot during the comic boom because of hobgoblin rumors so that likely played a roll there. There are also a lot of copies missing the tattoos that they could probably get super cheap as qualified labels. Hulk 181 is easy to explain as well because it is high demand, expensive, has tons of graded copies plus a good amount of copies missing the MVS that are much cheaper. I think there are a lot less of the others mostly because of either low availability (like the higher grade silver stuff) or limited profit margin (like the X-men 266).

[@canadiansurvivalist7222]

How many unboxings do you watch were the book says 9.8 but clearly isn't

[@6nosis]

How can you really tell if you're not in the same room cmon mate.😏

[@AbbeyBumpers]

Great insights, thank you

[@davezavu]

Right now CGC is charging $5 per book for high resolution imaging. I feel that they should supply that, at least a web based version, on CGC's certification verification page. Imagine if CGC had the high resolution scans, of the original submission and that of it's reholdering, on that page, right next to each other, it would have been much easier to see that they were not the same book. And if a person is looking to spend thousands for a book and not spend the $210 per year for the Go Collect and GP Analysis tools to verify and track that specific cert, I mean, I'm selling a bridge if you're interested.

[@AutomaticComics]

That’s all done free now (the image scanning). I don’t know why that option is even available on their site anymore as a pay option. They’ve been doing the free imaging since about June of 2023 based on submissions I’ve gotten back. Likely because they thought there was something sketchy going on (but that’s just speculation).

[@huntincomics]

​@@AutomaticComicswhy did they suddenly offer it for free before all this blew up? They def knew this was coming...

[@AutomaticComics]

@huntincomics that is what some people think. That they knew something was going on (maybe not what exactly, I can’t say for sure). And because of that they started adding pictures for free and way more books have graders notes than used to.

[@thecomickeeper5127]

Has anyone who bought something from this person ever said who it was. Clearly there's an address on the package the seller sent. This person seems pretty careless

[@anthonypidone4453]

Wow. How could some one afford to do this? CGC never saw this large reholdering done as a red flag. Sounds like a inside job to me.

[@bradcsuka5054]

Under no circumstances will I ever buy a CGC 9.8 of AS 300, 252, 238, or 194. They are all in question as fraudulent now, IMO.

[@jeffradakovich9252]

When cgc does a reholder, it should be automatic to regrade and inspect the book. If they did that, this could never have happened.

[@shepherdsknoll]

Some of it is a reholder issue, another issue is an individual opening the case and inserting an inferior book.

[@300baud]

Re-holders don't get new cert numbers, so the cert numbers you were showing were not necessarily originally submitted by the fraudster. If he bought 2 9.8 ASM #300 issues from another seller and then used those as his base for swapping, then those cert numbers were not originally submitted by him, so all the successive cert numbers are not necessarily in question if it was not originally his submission.

[@AutomaticComics]

The later ones very likely are from him. The ones up in the 4’s, which is why I focused on those for the numbers that are missing. It’s also pretty clear when you see the books in the submissions. It’s always the same types of books. Plus if 3 of the books in the submission are in question (on the list), there’s almost no question that they are all associated with him.

[@richhistory4124]

You nailed it, many are not scammers original subs, the ones on the list are reholder books, I figured scammer cracked out the 9.6's sealed in the nice inner well to use, and so yeah, some of these subs might be the scammer, but many probably are not. Other books are not on list because they were not sent in for reholder, so not part of the scam that would effect anyone. I mean the scam is the reholder system, it's just books that were sent to reholder. And it would be great if they said if any were the scammers subs, BUT what if multiple people are involved or worse what if they sent them in through a dealer. we don't know any of that yet.

[@ronhobbs463]

It seems like cgc was too busy counting their money to notice anything.

[@ScarecrOmega]

He had all those 9.8s of ASM 194 and 300 but had zero 9.8 and 9.6s of Hulk 181.

[@AutomaticComics]

I’m guessing the 9.6/9.8 hulk 181s might draw too much attention so that’s why he stuck with lower grades. Since the thing that ultimately got this guy was going for those super expensive mark jeweler variants. If it’s more rare/expensive you’re more likely to be caught.

[@jamesross824]

I don’t even believe in pressing and cleaning even that should altar a book’s value.All smoke and mirrors Ryan.CGC killed the hobby for entry level collectors.

[@robert5235]

How could grading comics not be a scam. You put a comic in a holder that you can't open it could be missing all the pages.

[@AutomaticComics]

That doesn’t make it a scam. The whole point of third party grading is the trust in the grading company. Obviously that has taken a hit with this scandal. But that doesn’t make it a scam.

[@jeffstanley6013]

It shouldn't be "every book that this person has submitted." It should only be the reholders. Because, how would he commit fraud on submitting raw books to CGC? Those books are going to be thoroughly reviewed by actual CGC graders, not just the reholder team, and receive legit labels.

[@AutomaticComics]

In my second video I showed what appeared to be a book that this seller may have added in a missing page (a hulk 181) and resubmitted through full grading. He also submits a lot of ASM 238s which are known for people adding in the missing tattoos. So it’s likely not just the reholder scam this person was doing. None of the books this person handled IMO should be ignored. Best case, they’re fine and they just have to review some extra books. But it at least helps rebuild that trust that they are taking this as seriously as possible.

[@donaldvonglitchenberger4108]

these people in the comic community are such drama queens

[@mestizo3113]

Does anybody know the name of the scammers ebay account?

[@idleivey]

I’m curious has anyone actually cracked one of the books on the list? Might be interesting to try to buy one and crack it open on video.

[@AutomaticComics]

The problem is that if you do, you likely lose any ability to get compensated by CGC for it. So you could be losing thousands of dollars doing that.

[@idleivey]

@@AutomaticComics for sure, best (and least likely) case you are out the regrading fees. Sounds like a job for Wubby.

[@anthonywheeler1941]

I agree it should have been a red flag but I think it makes it very hard when there is comic pressers that r sending in thousands of books a month especially big key books. But they are definitely not sending in over 50 9.8’s in amazing Spider-Man 194 lol

[@AutomaticComics]

I think in this case, the large amount of reholders should have been the big red flag (combined with the very high grades). There are people that send in hundreds of books per month for grading. So it’s not just volume you’d be looking for. It’s strange outliers in that volume.

[@andycheng4386]

CGC can easily check all this for every single account with simple database queries on their end.

[@AutomaticComics]

You would hope so. Obviously we don’t have access to their database. We just have what they’ve shown us, but I would think this would be pretty easy info to tease out of their historical submission data.

[@petereddy7633]

I get why CGC wants the current owners of those books turn them in. How many people do you think would actually do it?. There are a lot of people out there that would sell them and get some of their money back. You know CGC won't compensate the victims. They'll just regrade the book and send it back to the current owners. CGC, "Oh by the way you're 9.8 is really an 8.5. Sorry Have a nice day. Here's a coupon for a free grading (Signature Series books not included.)"

[@kellywilson7585]

Actually, CGC has said they WILL be compensating the victims. It was in their official statement from a couple days ago. I am just saying THEY said that...IIIII am not verifying it will happen that way ;)

[@mightycomicsandcollectibles]

The next step is for someone to send in a fraudulent book and CGC not compensate the buyer appropriately. That’s the next shoe to drop

[@AutomaticComics]

It will be interesting to hear from people that send their books in to see what the process is like. It’s unclear if they’re going to regrade the fraudulent books and send back the book and pay the difference or pay full value and just keep the books. No idea.

[@5x106]

Why would they worry about raw books submitted? Reholder makes sense

[@AutomaticComics]

In my second video I showed what appeared to be a book that this seller may have added in a missing page (a hulk 181) and resubmitted through full grading. He also submits a lot of ASM 238s which are known for people adding in the missing tattoos. So it’s likely not just the reholder scam this person was doing. None of the books this person handled IMO should be ignored. Best case, they’re fine and they just have to review some extra books. But it at least helps rebuild that trust that they are taking this as seriously as possible.

[@5x106]

@@AutomaticComics good point, With the thousands of dollars at play, they may have gotten more creative than just the cases

[@nixknacks-comics]

There have to be other books from other scammers.

[@ronaldbourgeois1255]

Ryan were there any DC books like Batman.

[@AutomaticComics]

I think there were only a couple. It was mostly Marvel.

[@dirkaminimo4836]

It’s sad you have to waste time on some crybaby that has done so little in life that he has to cry about a lost link! People are so soft and weak now a days.

[@gordonsisk9814]

Maybe you should become in charge of the CGC and I mean that sincerely

[@AutomaticComics]

I’m guessing that’s one of the least desirable jobs right now lol