Challenge From Lynnea | Seth - Seattle, WA | Atheist Experience 837

Atheist Experience TV Show episode 837 for October 27, 2013 with Russell Glasser and Tracie Harris.
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[@AvNotasian]

"The way i would prove it is: You guys say..." The ravings of a man without an argument.

[@trishayamada807]

NotAsian yep, the way you prove your point shouldn’t start with what other people say.

[@Ploskkky]

When I was in my late teens, and was in the process of becoming a non believer, my parents invited a pastor to save me. I told them there was no point in them babbling about their invisible magical friend, because it meant nothing to me. I said it would be a better idea to all be silent and give the invisible friend a chance to do the talking. Sadly the invisible friend never opened his mouth. Now, 38 years later, he still has not said a single word.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Good for you. How strange to live in a world where people are promoting a separate, invisible reality and want you to participate.

[@Ignirium]

That was pretty cool to imagine that scenario and responding like that. very well put :)

[@Ignirium]

@FiniteAutomaton WelL arTiKKullateD, i understand :)

[@paradoxward2533]

Nature is the Oracle of the species....., good enough.

[@gotaminutereviews]

I laughed out loud when Seth said he "adheres to NORMAL Christian orthodox beliefs". Tracie's response to it was perfect.

[@voix9209]

The whole point of the challenge went wayyyyy over his head.

[@davids11131113]

He didn’t get it at all.

[@DiMadHatter]

Theists being theists

[@captaincough2326]

nothing new there

[@reasonablespeculation3893]

The intellectually honest skeptical mind, constructs a question designed to extract specific information, relative to the claim being made. The Religious mind, is programmed to avoid answering such questions.... When cornered, the 'well you think' or 'you say' diversion is used... Or go complete non-sequitur, with out skipping a beat

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Seth: "I believe everything in the Bible is true and I believe in reason." Full stop. End of conversation. Thank you.

[@guytheincognito4186]

Yeah, those are completely contradictory sentences. Christian irrationality at it's finest.

[@danieldelanoche2015]

The man just decided "no, I don't think I will answer Russell's question."

[@silvershocknicktail6638]

"So you're saying it's because you can't see them with your eyes?" *Demonstrates logic* "So you're saying it's because you can't see them with your eyes?" *Demonstrates practical usage of logic and explains why concepts can be proven to apply* "So you're saying it's because you can't see them with your eyes?" Ugh. Why bother with people who aren't listening?

[@andydeon2202]

He's very good at avoiding the question of how he proves his bible.

[@sycofreake1]

@Leroy Boone it's a really old call, the guy called many times. His argument is "My basis for believing the laws of logic is god dunnit. You don't have any grounding for the laws of logic, therefore god dunnit wins by default" He was a dishonest presup douche schnoozle

[@Julian0101]

@Leroy Boone I have heard before, but is usually hiding behind the problem of induction or behind solipsism. Is a very tempting argument from apologetics, but it fails when you point out the answer they offer have exactly the same problem, so they are not solving anything at the end.

[@Julian0101]

@Leroy Boone "The best you can get from it is that the laws of logic are illogical." An when they present their argument this way, they are using the laws of logic to apparently claim that the laws are illogic. Which is a contradiction in itself. At most they can claim the laws are axiomatic, but that is not illogic. It doesn't get you any closer to proving god either.

[@jaxxonthehealer6607]

Andy Deon they usually are.

[@drrickmarshall1191]

@Leroy Boone There's no foundational belief to "prove" the laws of logic exist, but there is demonstrable evidence they do... They work, consistently.

[@vincebuckley1499]

Man do I miss these two

[@Ponokyo]

I've never understood why a god has to perform miracles when he/she creates the situations that cause the need for a miracle to happen.

[@stephenland9361]

Hey Seth, awesome job on deflecting the question of how you justify your acceptance that everything in the Bible is true. Well done!

[@jonathanconnor7920]

How is it so complicated for theists to understand the concept of atheists not believing in god because we simply have no reason to believe one exists?

[@SC-zq6cu]

That's because for most theists a large part of their early life is spent getting trained to deal with the God's yes-men. They never gain any experience in dealing with anyone else so to them humans might as well be a species of God's yes-men. Thats why when they meet an atheist, someone who doesn't simply play along to their yes-men routine their expectations are thrown off-track and to them the person suddenly becomes an unfathomable cthullu-like entity. This applies to theists of different flavour as well. Thtas why they are so bothered by "unbelievers" and "heretics" and want to end such presence so frantically, because they don't know how to deal with them.

[@VoiceOfIrrationality]

@ Russell: "Do you think you need to justify your belief that everything in the Bible is true; do you feel any need to do that?" Seth: "Yes I do." Russell: "Okay, how do you justify it?" Seth: "Going back to something and . . . uh . . and I believe I said this last time I called in, and talked with you Russell, essentially, now, uh, and this goes back to something that Lynnea said . . . um . . . if you want to . . . when it comes to worldviews and justifications for truth when you . . . " [Russell stops him and reposes the question] Seth: "well . . . do you think the laws of logic need to be justified?" [Seth spends the rest of the call avoiding Russell's question.]

[@nathanielthomson3455]

The laws of logic are proven by their implementation, they are a foundational assumption. This caller just wasted 18 minutes of everyone's life and he didn't even walk away understanding that.

[@joaotome706]

God is not attained by logic, only by faith. You'll never find Him by other means

[@nathanielthomson3455]

@@joaotome706 and as we all should know by now faith can lead you to false conclusions, so it's not a valid tool for determining truth.

[@w.c.orielly9059]

I would have just started asking him if he thinks Jonah could've lived in a whales stomach for 40yrs.... Or if a woman can be turned into a pillar of salt or if he believes that in any point in history snakes can talk or if the incest necessary for one man and one woman to build mankind is actually NOT harmful or how a burning bush can speak or how more water than exists on this planet could actually flood this planet and then dissappear too... Somewhere? And so on and so on and so on...

[@sycofreake1]

His answer to those questions is yes. He's a presup who says god must be real to be the foundation of the laws of logic, cause god dunnit

[@delbomb3131]

"7 day cycle" guy recently tried to argue that "there's no reason a serpent couldn't speak since we can speak" Or "sometimes the people in the bible call other people serpents as an insult so the serpent in Eden might have just been a 3rd person"... Having so much public pushback on these old ideas is making them back themselves into hilarious takes on something that's just much easier to go "🤷‍♀️ it's probably just a fable or myth, don't take it seriously"

[@i_am_aladeen]

Regarding that story about God moving the Sun backward across the sky: How come no other culture or civilization has reported on this? It must have been visible all around the world, and definitely something people would talk about for generations. Answer that, christians :)

[@dakotawayne2065]

These two are a good team

[@williamwatson4354]

Seth must have an IQ over 200. To have conclusively determined the absolute truth of the universe. My hats off man.

[@martenw757]

Nurse!! He s on the phone again ... 😉😁😂🤣

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

LOGIC does evidently NOT need to be shown by Theists ..................

[@bdiddyp]

I had a conversation with someone that literally said logic doesn't apply to God

[@Ignirium]

@@bdiddyp haha, wow. A person would have to be in possession of special* knowledge to know that :)

[@joaotome706]

@@bdiddyp True, God is not attained by logic

[@bdiddyp]

@@joaotome706 please, enlighten me as to why logic, literally something you use every day for everything, does not apply in one specific circumstance just because.

[@sycofreake1]

@@bdiddyp I had the same thing! So I told my mate "Well if it's not logical then you're not being rational in believing it" He's practically an athiest now, but scared as hell to admit it because he's irrationally scared of... hell lol

[@reasonablespeculation3893]

Seth Will Not answer a simple direct question , with a clear precise answer. He spends the entire conversation avoiding justification of his claim. Which is basically ... 'My interpretation of the Bible is correct, and comports with reality' . All good Seth,, but the Bible is unconvincing to me. Without something testable, you've got nothing

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Seth is a Bible Fundie playing a word game. This is why I cannot understand what he is trying to say. By comparison, I understand Hitchens and Harris perfectly.

[@chadingram6390]

This is a lazy presup argument, the laws of logic are presupposed and he also presupposes god and claims it's necessary

[@wildsage6852]

Wish Matt had been on. He would have shut him down in 2 minutes

[@phillipseifert694]

For being so interested and basing his argument on logic … the caller has no real understanding of it

[@Rick_MacKenzie]

Seth "argues" his way to a tautology and saddles the atheist view with it, attempting to trivialize atheism. He could have just as easily put together a tautology counterpart and saddle the theistic world view with that one. Ironically, it is his entire exercise that is trivial and accomplishes nothing of significance.

[@ilyaladyzhensky3067]

I just went back in time 15 minutes to tell myself to skip this one.

[@alexseioo610]

The laws of logic are directly derived from reality by condensing any rules which lead to self-consistent statements. They are true by (thought) experiment because they always have the same reliable verifiable results. 🥱

[@LoveScreamTrue]

@Dirk Knight What are quantum scientist doing in comment section of KZbin?

[@reclusiarch6524]

he wants to justify God in the same way you justify a concept rather than a being

[@Druku1977]

I, as an atheist, do not believe Miracles can't happen. I believe Miracles have not yet been demonstrated or rather if there ever was a miracle then it was later explained by naturalistic means. Miracles quote from the Bible are no different than spells quoted from Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings

[@JamesRichardWiley]

All miracles are still natural events.

[@Ignirium]

No Chris Massey randomly generated question today? If God didn't create Adam and Eve, how come we have the number 2. (that's the stupidest thing i could come up with)

[@Ignirium]

@TickerTaallick okay i looked up two words i didn't understand. "Fulla" is the name of an 11½ inch Barbie-like fashion doll marketed to children of Islamic and Middle-Eastern countries as an alternative to Barbie. "Panchromatic" (of photographic film) sensitive to all visible colours of the spectrum. A fulla doll looks like an anti-barbie barbie doll, and i still don't know what panchromatic means lol.

[@Ignirium]

@TickerTaallick oh i get it now, i just listened to that...song, haha! That was awesome but weird, i like strange stuff like that, like Cronenberg movies

[@Ignirium]

@TickerTaallick I really enjoyed - Inca roads(A token of his extreme), i know I'll listen to that again very soon, and I'll listen to some more Zappa in the future. Thanks a lot for making fun or Massey and helping me find Frank Zappa!

[@Ignirium]

@TickerTaallick hahahahha, i really enjoyed that song! the lyrics are funny, he laughs at 1min in at " he poots forth a quarter-ounce green rosette..laughs* (let's try that again)" and keeps going :) The guitar is awesome and he thanks Austin, Texas at the end! I also found the scapula.

[@reality2458]

If "atheists" aren't under the government of christ, can they still wear shoes? - Crust Messey

[@jppang4277]

Seth is a fool

[@philb4462]

Unfortunately this guy is basically using presuppositional apologetics, which is all about questioning whether you can know anything at all. The idea is that you need to presuppose God in order to know anything because he created the logic we use to assess things. It's not something that demonstrates the existence of God because it presupposes it so it's not something you can really have a discussion about. Any conclusion you draw will just be met with "How do know that?" I don't see how that helps me find out if there is a god. I can't see it convincing anybody so it only seems useful to prop up beliefs already held.

[@rcmrcm3370]

Well done, only error was Russel exceeding his own 10 minute limit on repeat callers.

[@cooltube2000]

You could conclude spirits were likely real if the medium could provide information that only the spirit would know.

[@RahulUmaSingh]

I suspect that this "Seth" guy has improved his presuppositionalism and now calls himself "Darth" something...

[@Spartan300740]

Rearrange these words to make an intelligible phrase - Mad , and Barking ! Do these people REALLY think they'll ever prove God ? Jeez !

[@dakotawayne2065]

Particles EMERGE from fluctuations in electrostatic fields corresponding to a "color charge" (the specific fluctuations visible effect) Atoms EMERGE from varying concentrations of particles. Elements EMERGE from concentrations of atoms. Molecules EMERGE from varying concentrations of elements. Protiens EMERGE from various concentrations of molecules Chemical reactions EMERGE from various interactions between protiens. Cells EMERGE from varying chemical reactions. Complex organisms EMERGE from varying interactions between cells Complex organisms are there by necessarily and absolutely natural! Any EMERGENT "being" or existence "higher" than life as we know it, would REQUIRE life as we know it to serve as it's own precursor. And thusly CANNOT be our creator. Physical truth or abstract lie. Either way. Man creates gods! Either way!

[@joshiegntn]

These guys who believe supernatural should simply be a supposition are ridiculous. Of course if you take a thing as a given, you are going to believe in that thing. It's so ridiculous. I presuppose unicorns... Voilà. I believe in unicorns.

[@mrdontgothere]

"But you can't account for the laws of logic." So? I can still USE them. I can still DEMONSTRATE them. I don't remember where I bought my pants, I can still wear them. If you already agree with me the laws exist and we can appeal to them, it doesn't matter where they're from. And a god doesn't get to be an explanation until you can show it exists, because gods that don't exist can't cause anything.

[@AnUnseenRuler]

Miracles are true because god is omnipotent -> Miracles prove god exists. Solipsism

[@christinehoward3448]

I don't know that aliens exit but 2+2 in my world is 4

[@johnnymcgonigle6530]

Seth believes in the laws of logic and everything in the Bible. People rising from the dead goes against those laws of logic. CONTRADICTION you muppet!

[@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers]

It's not whether Christianity is true, it's clearly true, it's an organisation based on a belief in a god. The question is, was Jesus a god, is that true?

[@SqwarkParrotSpittingFeathers]

Prophecy correct, he phoned back. Therefore, atheist is god?

[@jonathanleslie9100]

more 3 card monte from the fundies. Logic gets tested millions of times every hour, and has yet to fail. Bible claims, and miracles have never bee tested ever.

[@vladtepes7539]

satans aks when jesus intends on returning his trident and wants to let you know he thinks those poor in spirit had enough, like even they should have gotten it by now.

[@elvissinatra3120]

I thought god could do everything. How come he can’t lie? Why can he create a rock so heavy he can’t lift it? Or why can’t he make that rock that heavy???

[@MrChiangching]

He can't learn Spanish either.

[@johnomonoia3]

Faneromeni Boys. The old-school. You are going going down, wanna know why... You made it personal.

[@northernbrother1258]

Why can't God lie???

[@mr2atara]

@TickerTaallick No no no, he wasn't lying. He was being "mysterious"... Lol

[@reality2458]

God lies throughout the entire bible.

[@johnorendorff4355]

@FACE GALLON Hey, pretty close.

[@Ycekhold]

@John Wood "Even the lies?" -- Julian Bashir *"Especially* the lies." -- Elim Garak (Star Trek: Deep Space 9)

[@wildylupous]

Blahblahblier.

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

You`ve got LOTS of RETARDS in usa ....................

[@Fimbulvinter19]

He spends so long talking about that if Christianity is true, then miracles, blah, blah, blah. But like so many, he hasn't noticed or chooses not to that the hosts are still stuck back at that pesky if statement. IF Christianity is true. You need to demonstrate that it is before any other point becomes relevant.

[@ralfhaggstrom9862]

This is UTTERLY NONSENSE ! .................

[@kaldrake2167]

Boy I don't miss Russel.

[@davey6string]

Atheist belief simplified: put a stick of dynamite in a bucket of ink. Light the fuse and get a Shakespeare. But not after one attempt obviously. After trillions of years of attempts. That'll work

[@davey6string]

@Antique Mickey wow christianity and Islam really got to you. For all intensive purposes dont mix religion with the Creator of the universe

[@davey6string]

@Antique Mickey there is a place for a type of religion but you shouldn't worry about that it doesn't concern your existence as a human being. Just be a good person and believe there is a creator that's it.

[@AC-gb7do]

An invisible wizard spoke the universe into existence, created everything, including two fully grown sapient humans from dirt and a bone. Then he needed a nap. A NAP. Then he wrestles Jacob and loses. LOSES. The Israelites mark their own doors as a symbol to the angels of death to Passover their houses so that only Egyptian firstborns die. [God is obviously not omniscient since he does not know where certain people live, and needs symbols so as not to accidentally kill the wrong people.] And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. Judges 1:19 Iron is his kryptonite I guess. The God of the Bible is very much the product of the imagination of an ignorant people. He has all the human desires and flaws. He is jealous, angry, capricious, impatient , wrathful, ad nauseum. His knowledge of science is that of a primitive, ignorant man. His use of weaponry (he throws hailstones at enemies) is the same as that of primitive, ignorant man. He lacks compassion for those who do not idolize and worship him. As shown, he is anything but omniscient and omnipotent. Evidence for his powers consists only of written assertions by these ancient, ignorant people attesting to his power. Yet, because these writers were, in many cases, unaware of what others had written, they include assertions that totally contradict one another. Using these contradictions, it is easy to prove that God is not omniscient, nor is he omnipotent. These stories are nonsense written by unknown people to explain things they, in their total ignorance of almost everything, could not understand. These stories could not have been authored by an omniscient God. I take nonsense stories like this as evidence that the Bible is false and should not be used as a Holy, divine document. In short, there is nothing tangible to set the biblical god apart from the state of humanity at the time of the writing of the bible.

[@davey6string]

@@AC-gb7do lol ok whatever. I'll make the arguments stronger as we go. Let's start simple and get through these few beginner arguments first. I'm sure you'll have what to say. Argument#1 If a rolex was taken apart in to its individual components then thrown in to some vortex chamber for the next trillion years will it eventually build itself back to working order? Can chaos cause order? Argument#2 Why is it that only simple creations have creators? Like a wooden table or a computer program. Yet one sliver of DNA containing more organized code than all the computer programs ever written in history happend by accident. Google search genetic coding of dna under the microscope. Its coding puts ours to shame a billion times over. Argument#3 Can something be made from nothing? Dont blindly say the big bang started it all. Where did its contents come from. The tip of the iceberg in proofs I set before you. Do you have any viable answers to these beginner points

[@Diviance]

@@davey6string "If a rolex was taken apart in to its individual components then thrown in to some vortex chamber for the next trillion years will it eventually build itself back to working order? Can chaos cause order?" *You do know that the teleological argument (the good ol' Watchmaker Argument) is self-refuting, right? How do you distinguish design from undesigned? If you can answer that, you can get to the conclusion that shows that the Watchmaker Argument refutes itself.* "Why is it that only simple creations have creators? Like a wooden table or a computer program. Yet one sliver of DNA containing more organized code than all the computer programs ever written in history happend by accident. Google search genetic coding of dna under the microscope. Its coding puts ours to shame a billion times over." *This is fundamentally the same argument, so see above.* "Can something be made from nothing? Dont blindly say the big bang started it all. Where did its contents come from." *Why even talk about "nothing" unless you can actually show me nothing? If we have no "nothing" to test, how can we tell what it does or does not do?* "The tip of the iceberg in proofs I set before you. Do you have any viable answers to these beginner points" *These "proofs" have fundamental problems so obvious that it is still a surprise that anyone continues to bring them up.*

[@heewatamsuen7252]

Revalation 3:20 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me. The lord Jesus Christ is always knocking on your heart for you to accept him call out to him pour your heart to him he will litterally set you free and you shall know the truth he loves you and wants you to seek him ,so seek him ask him to come into your heart he is knocking on hour heart every day. God bless you brother I pray that you shall seek the lord Jesus Christ and recieve him as your lord and saviour. Amen

[@heewatamsuen7252]

@FACE GALLON my friend I seeked the lord Jesus Christ and let me tell you, truely im blessed he appeared to me a supernatural encounter with the lord Jesus Christ, I can truely testify that Jesus Christ is God Almighty, im blessed in every way thankfull that God saved me from my destructive life and given me a second chance, my life is doing the will of God and preaching the truth of our Lord Jesus Christ I want many soul's saved and come to the truth of God. . Amen.

[@heewatamsuen7252]

@FACE GALLON he wil reveal the truth to those that seek him. JESUS IS KING..

[@heewatamsuen7252]

@Barthelemy im not friend im following the lord Jesus Christ the only true God. Amen You should follow God too. Amen

[@heewatamsuen7252]

@FACE GALLON Jesus Christ is the onlyntrue God my friend, anything else is a lie by the devil/demons to take souls to eternal hell fire. Only the lord Jesus Christ can save man from hell. while your alive you have the chance to repent and accept the lord Jesus Christ as lord and saviour. Amen

[@heewatamsuen7252]

@Barthelemy my friend you seem disturbed you need the lord Jesus Christ to free you from the lies of the devil/demons that are tormenting your mind. Amen seek the Lord Jesus Christ today and be free.. Amen I pray for you my friend. Be free in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen

[@крис-л5ы]

God sent his son Jesus to save the world John 3:16. Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected at 3 days. Isaiah 53: 3 to 7 God is calling for repentance, if you want to receive it in your heart say: Lord I repent of my sins, I believe that your son Jesus died for my sins to give me eternal life, enter my heart I receive you as my Lord and Savior amen. Christianity is not a religion is a relationship with the living God

[@Diviance]

Does your god know all, as the bible says it does?

[@крис-л5ы]

@@Diviance The bible is the mind of God, leave your disbelief that's why you are spiritually blinded

[@AC-gb7do]

The Israelites mark their own doors as a symbol to the angels of death to Passover their houses so that only Egyptian firstborns die. [God is obviously not omniscient since he does not know where certain people live, and needs symbols so as not to accidentally kill the wrong people.] Silly God. Silly Christians.

[@Diviance]

@@крис-л5ы Answer my question. Does he or does he know all?

[@крис-л5ы]

@@Diviance yes, because he is God