Challenger 604 Descends DANGEROUSLY LOW | Disoriented? Loss of Control?

[@VASAviation]

Is this what happens when you push your high-performance aircraft to high levels during a visual approach and you leave the field behind and lose sight of it and get disoriented? However this was not as low (50-100 feet) as many accounts on Social Media are saying. Remember that most - if not all - flight tracking apps and websites show baro UNCORRECTED altitude, standard for 29.92 inHg. We do correct that value on our radar software using the real and current local atimeter setting to receive the CORRECTED altitude. With 30.46 inHg, the altitude differs a lot from the one you see on flight tracking logs.

[@jayhsu2412]

I think this was the redditor on /r/aviation last night who said this aircraft passed a few hundred feet above his house and he's at least 3 nm away from the runway

[@herkloader34]

No, this is what happens when an incompetent crew gets miles behind the airplane and loses situational awareness.

[@jetpilott2420]

You shouldn’t be doing 360s on a visual approach in a transport category aircraft in the first place. It’s a really stupid idea.

[@Molon_Labe1776]

Where did N803FG come from? That's not even a registered N-number. 1:24

[@Ea-Nasir_Copper_Co]

@@Molon_Labe1776 He really got that one wrong, didn’t he?

[@jamescollier3]

Has to be said: Foxtrot Gulf is still holding

[@holobolo1661]

Hahaha! I was like "but did they ever get their takeoff clearance!?"

[@iananderson8363]

* sigh “Roger”

[@joshilini2]

Original comment award.

[@VASAviation]

Sorry for the previous video. Something happened to the audio and I didn't notice.

[@GIANNHSPEIRAIAS]

jfk atc be like

[@DaveLee83]

Absolutely fine! Keep pumping out this excellent content

[@Megaddd07]

[@brandon6677]

Also title said 604. Now it says 605. No biggie my guy

[@teelo12000]

You also let the plane do some impressive michael jackson moves at the end of the video there

[@charliealpha11f3b2]

A lot could be potentially happening here. Spatial disorientation, transition to a new aircraft type/low experience level (and potential unfamiliarity with cockpit setup/displays), loss of S.A./looking at a different runway (like 31 instead of 24) and trying to set up for it, or maybe the pilot flying is just so used to shooting the ILS/RNAV approach into everywhere they go that they lost the ability to handle visual traffic pattern work and that distracted them. Hard to tell unless you are a fly on the wall and the crew debriefs it (IF they debrief it).

[@mikelp72]

In my personal experience, there are A LOT of unskilled, incompetent pilots flying jets. Way more than there were 15-20 years ago.

[@spanieaj]

He was flying behind the jet.

[@penguin44ca]

Came to say the same. Probably over busy

[@stevenaltaccount9476]

slightly unrelated - trenton is an absolute joy to fly out of. the only commercial flights they do regularly are with frontier and mainly to florida, but you can get round trips to FL from NJ for like $50.

[@MaddogLexi]

I've seen and its tempting to maybe do this to visit my grandparents down in Florida. I live on Rutgers NB campus rn so Trenton is both an easy drive and easy train ride away.

[@stevenaltaccount9476]

@@MaddogLexi do it they fly to most of the major Florida airports and because they only do one flight at a time there is no one at the airport other than your fellow passengers. i think you can also park there for like $8 a day. you can essentially go to Florida for the weekend for the price of a night out in NJ or nyc

[@Bright_Broccoli]

​@@stevenaltaccount9476 Sounds like a good deal.

[@Rhaman68]

Hope this pilot learned a valuable lesson as to energy management and that rushing can create dangerous situations.

[@Glegh]

The pilot sounded quite shaken up after that. Im not surprised

[@roderickcampbell2105]

Yes, "you're really off course" will do that to you.

[@WarHawkAU24]

So he was on the visual approach but didn't have the airport in sight? Eek....

[@markmaki4460]

Sometimes i wonder how often badly timed sneezes affect pilots.

[@teelo12000]

Ah ah achooo. Uh oh now we're on another planet.

[@zarraxia]

Planes are actually quite stable and unless you are on short final, there is rarely anything close by to hit, so surprisingly it's even less of an issue than in a car.

[@terrancestodolka4829]

Should alway have AN eye on altitude while descending...! And maybe a look out side when all the ground and lights are 'NO LONGER DOWN' below...!

[@cypilotiowan4761]

@@markmaki4460 hey, there are a few hypothesis that state the Kobe Bryant helo crash was exacerbated by a 1” movement of the pilots head. The inner ear can cause crazy things to happen. Add in nighttime and you’re rolling the dice.

[@markmaki4460]

@@cypilotiowan4761 Yes, exactly! A sneeze (or even sometimes fighting a sneeze off) can be very disorienting.

[@FarkyDave]

It's like somebody's wife saying, are you awake? You just dozed off. "Yes, honey I'm awake and getting out of bed right now."

[@paulchambers6657]

Did N803FG ever take off, the controller didn’t seem to realise there were two FG call signs talking to him

[@metehan_erdogan]

Those FG planes belong to a large flight school over there. I am sure that the controllers are well aware of similar callsigns.

[@mikelp72]

So he accepted a visual approach BEFORE he got the runway in sight. Ugh.

[@pomerau]

TWENTY FIVE seconds at that altitude is an awfully long time!

[@f_nn]

The last seconds feel like the final scene of Inception - Did he really put it down on 24?

[@xtremecoast]

LOL

[@holobolo1661]

well technically nothing is really touching everything is just attracted or repelled by atomic forces so it depends on your definition of "put it down".

[@tfaudree]

I’m guessing the person on the radio was a CFI the week prior; “full stop”? No corporate jet pilot ever says that.

[@jonesjones7057]

Bet you're right. We have a couple guys that came to the airline i work for that said the same thing, asking for a full stop. They had come strait from instructing. Good pilots considering the experience but yeah, that request is burned into their heads for a bit.

[@neilsingh5311]

@@jonesjones7057 Low hours GA pilot here. What do jet pilots say if not full stop? Just leave it unsaid? Now I’m wondering if I should be doing same.

[@kbuss10]

@@neilsingh5311 i guess just the approach and callsign...? bcos those jets cost a lot to operate, so the wont really ever do go arounds and touch and gos for fun. its presumed automatically that they going for a full stop i guess.

[@keefgtp]

@@neilsingh5311 Jets don't do touch and goes. We also don't fly practice approaches or low approaches or anything like that because that is all done in the simulator. Every jet flight is a revenue flight because they're so expensive to operate. There is no practice, there is only purpose in going from one airport to the next.

[@colinaviation]

@@neilsingh5311 They park at FBO's. When they touch down, tower usually asks "Ventura 6, where you parking" and they would tell them Galaxy FBO or something.

[@timduggan1461]

When the controller says "IDENT" they want to be certain.

[@DomManInT1]

Did I hear two different voices for Ventura 6? Was the low hours co-pilot making the approach while the pilot was napping? Pilot woke up and told co-pilot "son, you just nearly killed us". Owners of Ventura 6 need to find some better pilots before they have to collect on their aircraft insurance policy. Unless insurance claim was their plan all along.

[@H_nterPowers]

He came very close to a radio tower, which I call the "needle of death", if you notice on the VFR sectional during his left 360 turn while descending. Also it wouldn't be a Trenton video without an Infinity plane

[@fredfred2363]

That was worryingly close.

[@timduggan1461]

I had to pause the video to read the METAR. OK, carry on....

[@phildernerjr]

Did he almost Eastern 401 himself because he was messing with the RNAV?

[@jaredwhite6005]

@blancolirio please break this one down 🙏

[@blancolirio]

0n it...

[@Mixolydio]

Like watching the bat signal get acknowledged

[@happydan20]

@@blancolirio Sometimes the internet is a very cool place.

[@gemma3877]

And it's up.

[@cageordie]

Almost a CFIT report. Rookie mistake for a jet pilot.

[@YouveBeenMiddled]

Looks like he was awfully close to stalling as he rolled out of that turn.

[@keefgtp]

This is not a rookie mistake, this is a bad pilot mistake.

[@cageordie]

@@keefgtp Whatever you say. But what is the difference between bad and inexperienced in a jet, low and slow, at night, in a turn, looking out for the runway instead of watching the instruments? He may be an excellent VFR Cessna 150 pilot, but doing that in a jet is a rookie jet pilot error. If he can still make that sort of mistake when he is experienced, well then he will be a bad pilot. I don't think he'll try that again.

[@keefgtp]

@@cageordie Decision making like this should've been brainwashed out of the pilot in ground school and simulators. Hell, 90% of 121 ground school is just studying crashes and trying to count how many ways a pilot can die. Hopefully they carry this with them for the rest of their careers and realize how easy it is to just create more time, ask for vectors, keep things stable and calm. There is never a reason to rush in a jet.

[@evanlinn5869]

And the guy working the radios is still wondering how he got paired up with the maniac in the left seat.

[@akiko009]

Just a tad bit behind the aircraft, it seems.

[@sageskeleton]

This is why night VIS approaches are so dangerous. Looks like they rolled out of the turn and lined up on a road.

[@YouveBeenMiddled]

I'm going to go with "Too high, too fast" followed by "Too low, too slow" all because we weren't paying attention to flying a stabilized approach. Comment below on what you think they were doing instead of flying the AC.

[@Bright_Broccoli]

I think they were trying to figure out Wordle.

[@eltomas3634]

If I had to guess.... visual approach with no IAP for backup or guidance. The autopilot was turned off but the pilot kept following the flight director for vertical guidance and lost sight of the runway IF they ever had it. Poor SA. Pilot lacked the necessary skill for a visual approach and task saturated. Possibly not a positive exchange of controls or confusion. This reminds me of Truckee.

[@Meisha-san]

This is the best explanation I've found so far. I don't think the PIC ever had a good visual of the runway but continued as though on a visual approach. 😬

[@realulli]

Eye witness report on Reddit: "Did this Canadair TwinJet almost crash on my house?" And yes, there is a comment on the post linking here, along with other comments requesting him to contact blancolirio and the NTSB (in that order ;-))

[@terrancestodolka4829]

Had a LAX inbound learjet descend over my North Long Beach house in the dark 10 miles visibility mostly dark to little more than 300 feet to 400 ft.. going into LAX 15 miles away! Wow wow Wow, A true What the Hell...!!! as they went to full take off Thrust... and climb very slowly away.// an almost a crash landing into the neighborhood (Landing gear was still UP! ) but lucky the high power lines were just far enough away to be avoided by a few feet at best... Was a student pilot at that time... And YES, they were that LOW...!

[@joshilini2]

Why not post the link yourself instead of making us lazy peeps find it?

[@realulli]

@@joshilini2 because if I post a link, YT will delete the post. Bothers the living daylights out of me but I can't change it. YT links seem to be ok, though. Consolation prize: link to Blancolirio's video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmnVqKyXprSlpZY ;-)

[@Bright_Broccoli]

Maybe the pilot thought the Redditor's Christmas lights were runway lights.

[@timduggan1461]

Ventura 6? Not a professional pilot/crew. Scary

[@trinity72gp]

Crickey 😮

[@gavinsingh4450]

It's Ventura, says it all!!!

[@HsquaredH2]

This is really unacceptable performance! It’s getting bizarre out there. Stay safe folks!

[@_Breakdown]

Is this Trenton NJ?

[@Storriesmith]

Assuming 2 pilots, this smacks of whoever's in charge (PIC) not being actually in control of their aircraft. This is how people get hurt!

[@ooo_Kim_Chi_ooo]

Why are all of these videos in the NY Air Space! I swear Teeterborough and the surrounding areas are just about every video.

[@davecrupel2817]

I saw a guy on the r/aviation subreddit post about his house almost being clipped by this bird. I wondered if you were gonna upload about it, Victor.

[@Bright_Broccoli]

Once I saw that post, I figured it was just a matter of time before we would see the incident here. Maybe the redditor needs to put a sign on top of his house that says HOUSE, not an airport terminal. Perhaps a neon arrow pointing to the airport would be helpful. However if there is a homeowners association, that wouldn't go over go over well. Have a good day to anyone reading this comment.

[@tomwilson1006]

They'll just give ANYONE a pilot's license nowadays.......

[@sageskeleton]

Yep...take Harrison Ford for instance.

[@mikelp72]

In my experience, there are A LOT of unskilled/incompetent pilots flying jets these days. Many more than there were 15-20 years ago.

[@KingAir90Pilot]

Make sure you actually have a visual on the airport before accepting a visual.

[@lastdance2099]

He can still tell his grandkids in his whole flying career he never once asked to go around, ever.

[@timduggan1461]

I worked as an airline pilot since 1980. This isn't good. I never bent any aluminum.

[@xheralt]

I don't think PIC was incompetent or addled, he was certainly quick to respond and crisp on comms. Maybe low experience? 1a. VNT6 picked the wrong approach while well away from the destination. 1b. VNT6 stayed too high too close to the airport. Had RNAV on the brain (subconsciously knew he needed it for this night approach) while doing visual. Maybe was expecting a descent instruction from tower that never came, because he was VFR? 2. 9FG was being verbose, forgivable as a student; tower was trying to hurry his request along and get back to VNT6, they stepped on each other and chewed up more time. 3. when tower gets back to VNT6 they're still too high and way out of position, have to descend and do the L-360. VNT6 inexplicably makes the maneuver in wide legs, almost an uninstructed mini-hold, but that actually works in his favor because: 4. Tower has to field more verbose requests from 9FG, who's having either procedural or mechanical troubles 5. 2:01 VNT6 turns back to runway heading, but if he'd been mentally timing his legs, _miscounted._ He's not lined up on the runway, but a parallel vector! Then turns even further off course. Never declared airport in sight. Gets the RNAV he'd preferred on the second time around after getting vectored around the long way by Philly.

[@jordansean18]

I think he thought the airport was like 5 miles further away 😅 bad mental model I think... And disorientation

[@phytonso9877]

Wow, I'm glad this comment section has really absorbed just culture, and is working to help understand the root causes of this issue without shaming or punishing the crew that made the mistake. /s.

[@WarHawkAU24]

First day on the internet?

[@jwhitey2035]

Just culture isn't there to protect those that are negligent.

[@bcdm999]

Ugh another non-dei hire

[@fespa]

Had to ask ChatGPT about this (land-based civi here): 20/JAN/2025 METAR KTTN 210053Z 28006KT 10SM CLR M09/M18 A3046 RMK A02 SLP310 T10891178 $= This is a decoded METAR for KTTN (Trenton Mercer Airport) issued on January 21, 2025, at 0053 UTC: Wind: 280° at 6 knots Visibility: 10 statute miles Sky condition: Clear (no significant clouds below 12,000 feet) Temperature: -9.0°C Dew point: -18.0°C Altimeter: 30.46 inHg Remarks: A02: Automated station with precipitation sensor SLP310: Sea-level pressure is 1031.0 hPa T10891178: Precise temperature is -8.9°C, and dew point is -17.8°C $: Maintenance is needed at the station

[@lindawood4407]

Thanks for this post! Been looking for a website to decode all, your clarifications help.

[@777pilotforfun]

The faa should be looking into this incompetence. There is no way I would put my family in this plane with these two fools.

[@RR-zq3mk]

Ok calm down killer……you’ll never know…………you can also book the most expensive and elite private flight and still have no idea what the crews like. You only know now because of this minor event.

[@bobwilson758]

@@RR-zq3mkminor ? Go to slappin’ big buddy - That was near a smoking hole . Very nasty , smelly , disturbing sight to see -

[@777pilotforfun]

I’m afraid after watching this channel, I wouldn’t get in a private jet unless I was in the front seat.

[@sageskeleton]

Its fairly easy to find out if a Part 135 Operator has a good Wyvern/Argus rating and if they have a good SMS plan or not. The Operator I worked for strictly forbid night VFR approaches without prior approval of the Chief Pilot.

[@Look_What_You_Did]

@777pilotforfun Your president shut the FAA down. Unnecessary spending of the peoples precious.

[@cfinstr]

Ventura 6 needs his eyes checked or a flight re-test.