Challenger 605 crashes during approach at Truckee/Tahoe, CA

[@VASAviation]

You can leave your condolences here.

[@TechGorilla1987]

RIP...

[@MSRTA_Productions]

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@Jasonzw952]

Rest in peace, fly high

[@jimrossi7708]

RIP

[@robd3747]

RIP

[@Rutherford_Inchworm_III]

Well, we can say one thing for certain: that pilot felt 100% confident in the situation right until the literal 2 seconds before the plane crashed with no survivors... that's pretty sobering no matter how you slice it.

[@wallyroberts3129]

He overshot the runway. Should have gone around. Instead, he "yanked and banked" trying to salvage a serious overshoot. The aerodynamics of the "yank and bank" caused a stall too close to the ground. Bad flying. Six dead as a result.

[@iadcrjca]

Not necessarily…

[@mrjaycam18]

I’m here for almost everyone of these because this is a forever learning activity we all enjoy but never have I felt as sick about it as I do right now. His enthusiasm for life was clear and just like that it’s all over. Clear skies and tailwinds brother.

[@mrjaycam18]

@@1450JackCade agree and that’s what made it hit me much harder today. It can literally happen to anyone of us.

[@Dilberto88]

Pilot was my high school classmate. He was big into ww2 aircraft, hence the see ya sign off. Rest In Peace Bret.

[@michaelrobinson3598]

@@Dilberto88 SeeYa has nothing to do with WW2 aircraft which I have been involved in my whole life rebuilding and flying them. I am commercial 20k hours now and it is irritating.. But sorry for Bret.

[@gomphrena-beautifulflower-8043]

“..Can’t wait to see you guys…”🥺

[@JewportMenthols]

Pretty heartbreaking last words

[@MooseSquirrelX]

This broke my heart when it came up. Rest In Peace to all aboard.

[@rihamy2nd]

I know. That got me too.

[@earthwindflier]

heartbreaking

[@christopher88719]

It was heartbreaking, but it was also a beautiful message. A very small glimpse of humanity tucked into an ATC message.

[@jazzi_0453]

He sounded like such a nice guy :/ rip

[@scullystie4389]

He sounds exactly like a longtime LA helicopter traffic reporter named Scott Rife "the skylord" including his signature "SEE YA!" sign off. Hope it wasn't him.

[@citizenblue]

That "Seeya!" sure sounded a lot like Sunshine, former co host of the Fighter Pilot Podcast. That happened very quickly. RIP all aboard. 🙏

[@ronmorgan1906]

It's a fighter pilot thing. Back in my days in the Viper that was kindof a standard checkout.

[@Dilberto88]

Pilot was my classmate at Palm Springs High. Real cool guy.

[@jimburford4535]

@@Dilberto88 rip

[@tobyblanton3908]

As a 20,000 hour plus challenger 605 pilot I can tell you that the stall characteristics when in a turn happen quickly and violently. I also would suspect in proper usage of the auto throttles. If you look at their flight aware track log you can see where the air speed rapidly deteriorates which would lead me to believe the auto throttles had disengaged and the Pilots did not catch the disconnect

[@djmips]

What does the audio of the engines before impact tell you?

[@alalal8157]

WOW 20K hours in one type? Damn.... Thats like 30+ years in the same type man. Took me 3 years to get 2000 hours on a 74. I always leave the AT on until I am in visual, lined up, and hearing the "approach minimum" call. No need to show off hand flying skills in difficult approaches. Go do that in the sim.

[@77leelg]

Good catch. I missed that. The airspeed dropped very fast. The precision of the hold and approach indicates the AP was flying until the right turn then the a/s dropped quickly. You may be correct. He would have been behind the aircraft very quickly at a very critical time and place. Very sad!

[@ssoulssurfer]

@@alalal8157 lol

[@MotoVloggedOUT]

@@alalal8157 you also never circle to land at an airport like truckee in a 74 do you

[@RobinhooodGFX]

Runway in sight, no sign of trouble, crew seemed at ease. Interested to see this as it develops.

[@fortusvictus8297]

Last seen in turn at treetop level, right wing down nose low

[@RaineStudio]

So far off course, I think he mistook a glimpse of the freeway for the airport.

[@sjaviation]

@@RaineStudio didn’t look off course... was headed for rwy11

[@robbied5157]

@@sjaviation just found the NTSB report. Apparently ADS-B data said he overshot the centerline on the base-final turn so my guess is he overcorrected and entered a stall really low

[@sjaviation]

@@robbied5157 true, also looks like they dropped speed super fast

[@happycampertahoe]

This crashed right begind my workplace in Truckee. We felt the hit and saw the plume of black smoke immediately. VAS, I have some pictures of the scene(if you want to message me)

[@jonasbaine3538]

Lucky didn’t crash into you.

[@aleco761]

@@JordanSparks-xw5cy lurk

[@Rider95king]

My heart goes out to the people who lost their lives. The pilot seem so cheerful and confident . I don't understand what could have gone wrong.

[@marcocasati6953]

I'm no pilot, just an aviation enthusiast so this is just a thought I wish to share not a claim or a conclusion: It seems to me that many of these sudden and catastrophic upsets happen during RNAV approaches, I wonder if this technique, which is not super new but relatively new, has some shortfalls that haven't been systematically adressed in training yet, especially when weather is a factor. Again just a thought, it may well have been a mechanical failure or whatever other reason. Condolences to the families of those who have been lost in this accident.

[@Buyajetfromstevemain]

@@marcocasati6953 RNAV approaches are fairly easy and do not confuse pilots who are flying this caliber of aircraft. A circle approach, however, can be easy to misjudge a turn to final, over bank, get slow, etc….

[@marcocasati6953]

@@Buyajetfromstevemain Makes sense, thank you!

[@vonw.3294]

@@Buyajetfromstevemain Yeah circling approaches can be a bit tricky.

[@joycevaldes4548]

@@marcocasati6953 ❤️to you for your info n what are you saying this procedure would have made the plane do to crash suddenly IYK tks❤️😣 said

[@lancelucas3023]

Man, I just left Truckee after the weekend just a few hours before. We stayed at the Hampton Inn at the airport. The visibility from the smoke was deceptively bad; it seemed much thicker in certain pockets between the mountains than others right near by. RIP.

[@blockvfive1196]

yea, I was going to leave the day it happened but then we had to depart around 8

[@robd3747]

Everything sounded completely routine. I hope the cause is determined quickly.

[@scottycatman]

Even the ARFF response sounded routine

[@190roverk]

Stall

[@justanotherguy8791]

@@190roverk that would do it.

[@jstrahan2]

Robert Devon: It won't be.

[@blockvfive1196]

probably just pilot error

[@robobrien7787]

Saw this last night; knew I'd watch this today. Keep up the good work

[@rafacosta_x_]

How bizarre, that was so suddenly and everything seems normal just seconds before... And what is saddest is the guy enthusiasm, so heartbreaking... RIP

[@thomasmixson7064]

Power on spiral dives can come on in an instant, like a snap of a finger..even with superhuman quick corrections you still have to have altitude to recover

[@Brausser123]

As a fellow pilot this is just horrible to hear. My condolences to the friends and family. I believe I can confidently say all of us in the aviation community feel a loss of fellow pilots and even myself in Canada as I’m sure many others here and all over. Fly high ✈️

[@wnhtynhatc1306]

Kind of reminds me of the LearJet crash at TEB a few years ago. Though this pilot seems much more in control whereas the TEB pilots were distracted and confused for a bit entering the traffic pattern which caused them to lose track of their airspeed.

[@RehdClouhd]

TEB crash was a disaster flight from takeoff.

[@rrobins9857]

TEB pilots were behind the plane from the getgo!

[@joem5639]

You’re right. That’s what I’m thinking. Got too slow while maneuvering then a bank angle caused a wing stall. They been encouraging the use of the AOA indicator at CAE & Flightsafety lately. However, they are not well located and easily observed in many cockpits.

[@stanktail]

Wow did they over square a base to final turn on the manner that still kills dozens of piston single pilots? That's like the 2nd flight lesson when you show up off the street to learn to fly.

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

Not confused but maybe reckless. The pic allowed a pilot rated a zero on the company scale to fly the plane while they violated several speed restrictions, had no idea how close they were to way points, talked trash about the controllers. Then the Pic got upset when he was distracted and the other pilot gave him the controls and they ended up crashing.

[@blancolirio]

Thanks Vas that was quick…update inbound jb

[@Mountain-Man-3000]

Been waiting for your update. This is just awful.

[@kevinallen1699]

Hey Juan. do you have anything on the Captain Snodgrass " Snort" crash in Idaho ?

[@jimj5224]

@@kevinallen1699 He has posted something on this already. I haven't watched it yet myself.

[@kevinallen1699]

@@jimj5224 .. Found it. Thank you.

[@pistonburner6448]

I noticed that in this ABC10 report, in the doorbell cam video, you can catch a glimpse of the plane's reflection in the Jeep's windshield seconds before impact. It's a reflection on an uneven surface, from an angle, and a small glimpse at that, but maybe someone can interpret something about the plane's position etc. from it? Looks to me like in the first glimpse of the wings they are not symmetrical so is in a different bank angle than the next moment you can see the wings, when they look to be symmetrical and therefore level with whatever the viewing angle is. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6KpnnqCipWjo7M

[@scotchsoda3165]

That was a sharp turn heading into the runway. Witnesses said the left wing lost lift.

[@JSBIRD69]

From the preliminary information, it sounds like a stall.

[@davidwick8401]

Dude on the putting green said it sounded like a big bang to him.

[@JSBIRD69]

@@davidwick8401 I believe he was describing the impact

[@owenmerrick2377]

Yeah, during the turn onto final...

[@Banshee365]

The Challenger 605 has a shaker AND a pusher. It’s pretty hard to full stall a 605.

[@HuckThis1971]

@@Banshee365 yes it does. I see them get installed on the line.

[@mattf49006]

Local news had a witness say it was low over the trees in a left turn..then went in right wing down nose low...RIP folks

[@KeithKman]

And engines spooled up prior to impact.

[@tonythreepies9272]

Airplanes tend to be low before they crash.

[@42dunbar]

@@tonythreepies9272 Dropping a wing when low and slow is not normal though. That suggests the aircraft stalled while circling to land.

[@davecrupel2817]

Dropped the left wing.... Could it have been a downdraft on the left wing? Or an updraft on the right wing?

[@asdf13132]

cross control stall probably?

[@wnhtynhatc1306]

That was tough to hear. Pilot seemed completely competent and in control for the circle-to-land. Then it just crashes. Anyone familiar with this procedure at this airport and those altitudes the radar was indicating? Any insight?

[@trancewe]

No idea of procedures but that airport sits at about 5500 feet above sea level.

[@blockvfive1196]

We fly in a lot in a cessna 525 M2, usually you do your basic downwind, base, final, except everything can be in a tight squeeze especially with jet aircraft cause of the mountains

[@forecastguy]

@@trancewe There is significant terrain above 7000 ft 5mi northwest of runway 14. This is very close to where radar lost contact. I believe his last transmission was at an altitude below 7000 ft.

[@johnrickard2020]

Guy on the radio is usually the pilot not flying if two crew.

[@HelmetDruler69]

there was thick fire smoke that day.. idk if it mattered

[@Saturnium_]

Condolences and sympathies. Goes to show that even in ideal conditions things can go tragically wrong in the blink of an eye.

[@gtm624]

These weren't ideal conditions unfortunately. And it wasn't a blink of an eye. It was a series of events that took place. Where things slowly start to slip away from ones attention span. Visibility was poor, It was a hot summer day, that airport is at 6,000 ft and if it was about 81 degrees that puts the DA density altitude at almost 9,000 ft. The pilot chose a very high rate of decent. From what the flight tracker shows, it shows the pilot descending on base (which the pilot didn't even fly the proper pattern likely due to not being able to see the runway) then while in descent turns final and thats when the plane went down. It really looks like task saturation and stall. Despite the person on the radio sounding happy. That could have been a co pilot. And Its also odd that in a situation like that the person on the radio was in that mindset. It seems a little loose and unsterile for a missed approach at almost 9,000 ft DA with clouds and smoke in the air. If it were a co pilot on radio its possible that the PIC wasn't using crew resource managment since the person seemed more excited about being on the ground than flying the plane. That situation was not routine at all.

[@TheMonolake]

Why didnt they land at reno

[@cardinalflyer]

Low visibility, plus keeping the airport in sight on a visual approach means slower, tighter turns in close to the airport. On what seems like a nice day it would be hard to choose the extra time required for a full approach leading to a stabilized approach. Or, something else!

[@chaseeriksen4107]

Circling mins for RWY 20 were 7220 (1400 HAT CAT B) and 7700 (1800 HAT CAT C), but it's also expanded circling radius. If they were flying the LP glideslope, they would have been at their circling mins before getting to their circling protected radius. If ceilings were @ 2300, doesn't seem like a huge deal. Now if the approach wasn't stable, or they were handflying the LNAV, that might be a different story, but the crew seemed pretty relaxed.

[@cardinalflyer]

@@chaseeriksen4107 It isn't about minimums, it's about keeping the runway in sight in 3 1/2 or lower visibility. The horizon goes away... perspectives change. It is a challenging maneuver at any altitude with lots to keep track of to manage the energy budget. Especially in a jet, and especially when low visibility tightens the pattern.

[@idonthaveanamenoone3526]

Holy shit this just happened huh. Damn. If any one who knew any of these souls reads this, you have my condolences. It's hard to imagine this stuff making history as we're watching.

[@johnb6014]

That's so sad. The pilot sounded so happy and so upbeat. What a loss.

[@tfaudree]

At 1:22, they ask for runway 11 due to runway length, not lights.

[@PilotFun101]

Sad. RIP Thank you for sharing. We can only hope we learn from others mistakes.

[@Banshee365]

They requested the circle to 11 for runway length, not lights.

[@mikebailey7071]

Is the circling min 1800AGL for RWY 20 and 1900 For RNAV RWY 11? Maybe I don't understand why you would circle to land?

[@Banshee365]

@@mikebailey7071 The CL-605 is a category D aircraft when circling. Circling is prohibited at TRK for CAT D. The real question is why the crew didn’t just shoot the RNAV 11.

[@Crossdod0]

@@Banshee365 CL-605 is a Cat C aircraft, all the approach procedures are prohibited at TRK for CAT D, not just circling.

[@Banshee365]

@@Crossdod0 Is Vref in the 120’s? Usually? I figured the 605 is Cat D like the CRJ-200 I used to fly. It was WAY deep in Cat D. I know the Challengers have to have a good hit lower Vref due to the same wing and much lower weight but I wasn’t sure if it made the ref speeds solidly in the 120’s.

[@Ridejumpfly]

@@Banshee365 C is 121-140. Ref should be within that under normal conditions. Looking at CRJ-200 cards you’d have to be 47000lbs or more to be outside C.

[@CharlieFoxtrot00]

Hi VAS, I think you need to pull the ZOA tapes prior to where this starts and re-align the shown track with those. At 20:05:15Z, he received a clearance from ZOA to hold north of ALVVA on the 340 bearing. His call of “established” may not have occurred where your video shows and it throws the timing off considerably.

[@CharlieFoxtrot00]

@@tonythreepies9272 yeah, it’s tough to have a content-laden video with all the spaces in between. That’s why I always want to check the real-time tapes and tracks before piecing together the events. Otherwise we all start jumping to a lot of conclusions. That said, I’ve done more leg work on this and if my analysis is correct, it looks like he was indeed given a late clearance (given his high speed and the frequency saturation) to the hold at ALVVA at 2004:56z, while he was about 7NM from AWEGA at 365kts GS. He turned toward AWEGA, then then started a turn nearly 9NM south of AWEGA and kinda flew toward ALVVA at 2006:20, but did not call established in the hold until 2011:33Z, when he was inbound on the 340 bearing from AWEGA(!). So something still isn’t adding up. 20 seconds later, he was cleared direct AWEGA and for the approach, which he reached 60 seconds later. He was handed off to KTRK tower at 2014:18z, checked in with the request to circle to 11, which was executed 90 seconds later and was dead less than 90 seconds after that. Things happen fast. Note that my timing on these events isn’t confirmed, but it paints a clearer picture. I believe he was confused about the holding fix and trying to rectify it, possibly flying manually, lost sight of his high speed, then because he was flying to the wrong fix, he had to correct everything last-minute while missing the importance of an approach clearance that came too rapidly (for where he incorrectly was) and couldn’t accommodate him. Edit: for clarity

[@simeon2851]

Life is precious and short. Cherish every moment. That pilot was so cheery and confident. My heart breaks for him and the other POBs, in spite of me not knowing them.

[@gendaminoru3195]

From the audio in the surveillance cam, it sounds like engines spooled up right after wings leveled and just prior to impact. Ground track indicates a pretty tight turn onto final and if I read it correctly the speed bled off from 190 to 140 ground speed [LWR R target data] in a short space, suggesting that the approach maybe didn't quite stabilize before the turn, but I did see 3 sweeps at 140 though. Also the crash site is quite a bit south of the center line of the runway, suggesting a very high alpha and/or an uncoordinated turn. Wondering, maybe Challengers lack of leading edge devices and a very rapid change in elevator once he realized what was going on separated flow? I recall old DC-9-10's had no leading edge devices and we lost one at Denver with some ice on the wing and rapid rotation.

[@megadavis5377]

Tony Three Pies; Yes, I, too, hope you are incorrect. However, I suspect that you are NOT incorrect in your assessment. I, too, hope that this is not yet another over-shot-the-final approach course scenario which resulted in a too-tight turning maneuver which ended in a stall and spin, which resulted in three people heading off to where ever they were bound in the after-life... But man, that's exactly what it appears to be from the outside looking in. High outside air temperature, high-elevation airport, changing winds... Maybe the on-board recordings can give us the stats quickly. Insurance rates are going to skip the stairs and get immediately onboard the express elevator to the roof. We're losing way too many high-performance airplanes to pilots' mistakes. I hope this was not another one. Very, very sad. So long, guys...

[@Michael-ig8ne]

Hot temps and high altitudes really don't really effect jet aircraft engines the same way they do normally aspirated piston engines if I remember correctly. They respond slowly and have reduced thrust above FL240 but nothing like that would really be a hinderance to the performance at an altitude of around 7-12k feet. I think this is a case of maybe spatial disorientation and not necessarily something performance related. I am open to being wrong, however. I do agree with reduced lift performance and what not being a contributing factor to a base to final stall spin but I wouldn't be surprised if this would be ruled as a CFIT incident.

[@arthousefilms]

1:17 - Is this transcription "See ya" incorrect? It is a very strange vocalization.

[@chrisparadowski307]

See ya is correct. Very common on military freqs whenever you switch an a/c to another facility or controller. Example: RCH212, contact tower. See ya!

[@justinhink4198]

Just a pilot having fun with the controller.

[@pdutube]

Just an enthusiastic mike drop for ATC... :-)

[@billgee4237]

Used to be very common at DEN airport when Great Lakes Airlines was still in business too. Seems like a way for younger pilots to sound cool on the radio.

[@curtisphillips4497]

The circle notification to tower was for runway length not runway lights. Why on earth they did not request the RNAV 11 to the desired runway is a mystery. As a super-mid captain, I avoid circling like the plague, especially when there is an approach to a preferred runway available. God bless their families. This is so sad.

[@Dilberto88]

Pilot B.E. did not seem to be in any distress at all. Just wow. So long, classmate...

[@linuspoindexter106]

1:20 Asking to circle the runway until he could see the lights. This was during daylight hours, maybe low visibility due to smoke played a role?

[@VASAviation]

See the METAR

[@206dvr]

He said he needed to circle for runway length, not lights. Vis was poor, though.

[@linuspoindexter106]

@@206dvr I think you're right. It does sound like he said "length".

[@pistonburner6448]

You can get an (incomplete) idea of the conditions from the news footage showing someone's doorbell cam video. You can even see the plane pass by in its last seconds in the Jeep's windshield: kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6KpnnqCipWjo7M At least at low altitudes seems that visibility was fine. My guess is that the pilot let density altitude get him, too slow. Sounds like he tried to spool up his engines in the stall but it was far too late.

[@ziggy2shus624]

Forest fires in the area.....a forest fire truck was the first to reach the site.

[@rookie__pilot]

There was a crash at a local airfield a couple days ago, KRYN Ryan Airfield, Tucson AZ. Would greatly appreciate more info

[@Pteparts69]

It’s always an eerie feeling hearing someone’s unknowing last words.

[@JayandSarah]

For some it is. Everyone has unknowing last words before death. That's how life happens. The difference is, not everyone is in an airplane crash. The immediate end in this, probably better than suffering with disease.

[@shahh.5124]

It was such a sad and scary moment. It happened right outside of our Architecture office in Truckee. The explosion and the shake was shockingly high

[@c_rhynehardt]

TRUCKEE, Calif. - Four people are confirmed dead after a business jet crashed and burst into flames Monday afternoon in Truckee, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. 2 crew, 2 passengers

[@tiverton]

Not sure why they chose to circle instead of straight-in rwy11. The straight-in minimum for 11 are the same as circling minimums for 20. 1900 and 3.

[@VASAviation]

Many reasons on the table

[@tiverton]

@@VASAviation One of them was most likely to expedite and approach from direction of flight (north). Never a good consideration when leveraging against the complexity of a circling approach.

[@magnusskoglund8885]

Especially since they needed to get lower anyway and the 605 is Category D for circling. Not authorized as per the approach plate.

[@heleezy]

I was in Truckee regional park, less than a mile from the crash when it happened. We thought it was thunder at first...

[@westsparks6844]

Is it tricky for aircraft to land at that airport? I live in Reno, seems every summer there is 1 or 2 crashes up there. I'm no pilot but was just wondering about the thin air, tricky winds and being surrounded by mountains.

[@danc3488]

Crashed into a wooded area from news stories I've seen. My guess is a stall or an overbank during the circle approach. But I'm no expert. Sad to hear them so upbeat and cheery right before. RIP

[@fivestringslinger]

I wonder if smoke/ash could have contaminated the pitot-static system, resulting in inaccurate altitude/airspeed readings?

[@RehdClouhd]

Good thought but no.

[@UncleKennysPlace]

They closed the runways, but the crash wasn't on airport property?

[@iracingsimseries8608]

they most likely closed it because of the fire that was near by an approach. they dont want planes flying near smoke at low altitudes

[@williamrmcintosh4343]

Thanks to VASAviation for putting this together so quick. From the audio, I would just like to observe that to me, the pilot seemed overly committed to landing on THIS approach, and that also he seemed to be already mentally on the ground, socializing.

[@JayandSarah]

Yup. See'yuh. Hmm.

[@StevieWonder737]

Circling approaches, even in marginal VFR conditions are some of the most dangerous maneuvers that can be flown.

[@virginiaviola5097]

It’s haunting to hear, the jaunty voice on the radio, looking forward to seeing those guys, not knowing that he only had seconds left on earth. This one is really upsetting. Condolences to all affected.

[@LadyLithias]

is this another Truckee accident? Wasn't there one earlier in July?

[@clearsmashdrop5829]

Yes, its a new one. Just happened yesterday afternoon.

[@Cmoredebris]

The Challenger was slightly right wing low when it flew over the apartment complex, where a door ring cam caught the sound of the crash. What also showed up in that video, was the jet's reflection in the windshield of a Jeep, as it flew overhead. The Jeep is approximately 1000 ft from the crash site. A line drawn between the Jeep and the crash site is almost parallel, but offset by approximately 1000ft to the right, of the runway 11 extended center line.

[@MSRTA_Productions]

Rest in peace

[@derek8676]

I departed Truckee about an hour before this accident… it was extremely smokey and we had to shoot the approach just to get in. My heart breaks for these guys, even if they were total strangers

[@scottlawless8854]

One can't help but wonder if they had the field altitude entered incorrectly since they were executing a left turn with intent and witnesses reported impact with left wingtip down. Stall from over-bank is always a possibility also. Then again, there were no stall alarms in the background on last transmission either

[@rowboat0317]

I'm not a pilot, so forgive the stupid question. They were cleared to land on runway 11 which is west-to-east. why did it look like they were lined up to land on runway 20 north-to-south? Edit: runway 20 north-south (not 29)

[@YaroslavNechaev]

@@rowboat0317 I think it's because of this particular airport. Approach for runway 20 there has way lower minimums (e.g. the altitude that you can descent to without having the runway in sight) than for runway 11 (even with circling). This is likely due to the terrain around. So they chose an easier/safer approach and, once the runway was in sight, decided to take a longer runway for good measure.

[@cageordie]

They were visual. They were straight and descending during their last transmission. You have nothing to support your speculation.

[@thesnitch7]

they were VISUAL

[@dee13lee]

Why would a pilot fly an approach for RWY20 but request circle to land on RWY11, when there’s an approach for RWY11?

[@billythekid3234]

The density alt was 8,800, maybe came in to slow? RIP

[@KeithKman]

Yes my thought exactly. The engines spooled up right before impact.

[@thecorporatepilotdad]

No. Indicated airspeeds used do not matter in terms of altitude. If landing in Aspen Vref won't change. It is based on weight. Vref (30% margin above stall speed) will be the same speed in Aspen as it would be at a sea level airport.

[@42dunbar]

@@KeithKman Engines spooling were probably them reacting to the wing dropping due to a stall.

[@Charon58]

I talked a 605 pilot that said it is a category D aircraft for circling approaches. Cat D not allowed on this approach. Might give a hint

[@Blazingspitfire]

605 is CAT C

[@kevinallen1699]

The audio that was captured on a home's recording device was crazy.

[@benjaminwilliams2359]

Can you share a link to it?

[@rexxroyce9700]

@@benjaminwilliams2359 kzbin.info/www/bejne/i6KpnnqCipWjo7M It is a little bit in the video.

[@kevinallen1699]

@@benjaminwilliams2359 kzbin.info/www/bejne/bKeUZ4qhZtlsi6M

[@jbl7092]

Nice job getting this out there so quickly.

[@joeg5414]

Kinda seems like he stalled it making an aggressive turn?

[@buckhorncortez]

Kinda seems like total speculation since you didn't see the accident and don't have enough information to form an accurate opinion.

[@alex2143]

Shall we not speculate and let the investigators do their damn job?

[@FlightX101]

@@buckhorncortez thats why he said "Kinda seems" --__--

[@flightwriterNG]

1:25 I believe he said circle to land 11 for runway length, not lights.

[@UncleWiggy252]

Yes "Length" for sure. 11 has REIL lights also, 20 does not.

[@42dunbar]

This is a late model Challenger 605 so it should have a CVR. The avionics will record the speed, bank angles etc. on approach. The NTSB should be able to determine the cause.

[@powershot9933]

Yes it should have a CVR and a FDR

[@lawdawgg3034]

Hey @vasaviation there was a belly landing at Erie International Airport a week or 2 ago. Any idea if we can get something on that? It’s my hometown and just wanna know what happened :)

[@ljfinger]

What the...exactly zero signs of difficulty prior to impact?

[@konanoobiemaster]

that and the first time he said "CYA!" i thought THAT was going to be the moment of impact... such a weird string of events....

[@wingracer1614]

Things happen very fast when you're low and slow. If he stalled it on approach, he's hitting the ground long before he can say anything on the radio.

[@tna2me197]

Does he say “runway lights” or “runway length”? Was there an approach light system on the runway he was circling to? Wondering what the configuration of the aircraft was. (Flaps, gear, flight spoilers). I have a suspicion they may have used flight spoilers to descend and failed to retract them in the focus to circle for the runway. My deepest condolences to the families who lost their loved ones.

[@tna2me197]

Runway 20 is only 4654’ long. 11 is 7001’ long. Most corporate Ops have an insurance limit of 5000 or greater. At that elevation runway 20 would be an issue for almost any jet.

[@tna2me197]

@@tonythreepies9272 yeah that’s what I thought too. The transcript says lights. And the comments refer to that. But I’m sure it’s a runway length issue.

[@geoffreycombs525]

Very sad… I just flew into Truckee a few days ago. This sounds like a textbook stall/spin/crash/burn scenario. The golf course is just south of the final for runway 11. They probably overshot final and tried to correct back.

[@ShakespeareCafe]

I was in Truckee last week and I saw an equally larger corporate jet lift off above the Sierra conifers and I thought to myself "that jet just looks so out of place" in a small mountain hamlet like Truckee. It's high and dry at Truckee and SLT airports. These screaming jet engine craft should only land at Reno Int'l and then you jump in a Cadillac Escalade SUV for the remainder of your 30 mile trip to Tahoe. It's a beautiful ride up I-80. It's what the California Zephyr passengers on the train live for. Don't trade your life for a few minutes delay. The trauma of so many witnessing this doomed craft crashing and burning will not be soon forgotten. LIFE IS FRAGILE...HANDLE WITH CARE

[@stevet8121]

It seems he saw the runway but forgot to fly the airplane for the correct approach.

[@YaroslavNechaev]

How come? Looks like a pretty normal left base for runway 11 to me

[@v12kid]

density, speed, altitude, AOA on that turn that appears to be really sharp led to a stall? RIP to all.

[@dr.darian]

A dark month for aviation

[@pietervaness3229]

Toby Blanton : were you stating IMPROPER use of the auto-throttles SIR ?

[@DavidDavid-jb1cy]

really sad. hopefully we can learn from this in some way

[@rollingacresfarmstead206]

whats the stall speed on the 605? Am i correct that the speed shows up on screen at 67?

[@thesnitch7]

lol, no

[@et9566]

Everything sounded alright until the last 20 seconds, very unfortunate scene, I've actually met that controller inside the tower a few days ago and she does a great job controlling traffic with the gliders at the Soar Truckee glider port. Can only imagine what it's like from a controller's perspective too. Rest in peace.

[@MasterClassComments]

Was some of the audio cut at the end for periods of silence or is it all real time? The end seems kinda odd idk, maybe they didn’t see them go in or something??

[@matthendricks9666]

No idea what happened here. Only a careful investigation will show. But that´s why all fun has to stop below 10.000 AGL in departure and approach. It only has to go wrong once and that´s it for everyone on board.

[@nextdealllc4404]

Sadly been updated to 6 souls lost today. Truckee is a tough place to fly in and out of. I learned to fly there in hopes of making me a better pilot in the long run.

[@CallM3YourCat]

He sounded like a very good guy :c

[@toddw6716]

the procedure turn is at AWEGA but they did it at ZILTO thats a 9 mile difference. Dont know what the previous controller issued but they didnt fly it as published.

[@toddw6716]

@@tonythreepies9272 maybe they activated the approach and that made the final approach fix active and that’s why they did it.

[@thesnitch7]

audio and video are not aligned at that point

[@toddw6716]

@@thesnitch7 the video shows he didn’t fly it as published. The audio sync means nothing.

[@kyleharvey7]

And that’s why you don’t circle in a jet. Circling has been removed from all plates in Canada due to the inherent dangers associated. Likely stalled in the turn.

[@JL91644]

Yeah with all the smoke in Northern CA atm, visibility was most likely lower and to keep the airport in sight in his circling maneuver he had to keep a tighter turn. Meaning he had to slow down a lot. Stalling the aircraft.

[@kevinallen1699]

Do you have anything on " Snort " Snodgrass's crash in Idaho ?

[@elcastorgrande]

Blancolirio (Juan Brown) has something, but there arenl't many details just yet.

[@joeg5414]

Doubt there's any atc tapes of it though

[@nikovbn839]

"Looking forward to seeing you guys" So hearbreaking...

[@davidwick8401]

Dan Gryder would already have the final report ready but I’m told he had a busy weekend and is getting caught up on doing his laundry.

[@aaronsuever2414]

So I've never heard of him before this weekend when everyone at Oshkosh was making fun of him. Why the universal hate? I found his channel but haven't had enough time to go through it.

[@davidwhite2011]

I have to say I had the same thing happen to me in a C150. I don't think to many people have been in one on a hot day with the barn doors down. They did take the 40 degrees off later for this very reason in later C-150's. I was lucky to be on a 7000 foot strip so I just landed with still having 3500 feet left. For me it was a 5$ switch.

[@darrylr.4983]

@@aaronsuever2414 Not really Universal hate, Dan is just one who doesn't hesitate to give his opinions on aviation safety and he doesn't spare anyone's feelings while he's doing it. So he has lots of people whose toes he stepped on that don't like him. He's also a very experienced pilot. The accident the other day could not have been avoided after the flaps failed to retract. When this happened it was too late to land on the STOL runway (very short runway, I believe it was only 400 feet). The Cessna 150 won't hold altitude with flaps at 40 degrees especially when it's warm outside. Dan flew the plane all the way down to the cornfield and put the main gear in between the rows of corn. They were only doing around 40mph at touchdown, basically a full stall which is what you want in that situation. The nose gear dug in and the plane flipped on it's back but they were very slow at that point and neither pilot was injured.

[@skyhawk2958]

@@davidwhite2011 " AHA!!!"

[@kenhurley4441]

@Midnight I witnessed that crash. Dan couldn't retract the 40 degree flap. It was hot and humid and with 2 people in the plane,,,,, it just didn't have enough thrust (engine) to over-come the drag. Both occupents walked away from the crash! Dan did an execellent job of flying the airplane all the way to the crash site! Plane slightly hurt and no fatalities. I'd fly with Dan anytime!

[@Xxxxxx19-p1c]

Timely update. Thank you.

[@jackmehoffer1037]

R.I.P crew and passengers

[@bryceleinan]

I know KRNO had some diversions yesterday due to visibility issues… two SkyWest flights diverted to KLAX and KSEA due to issues with the RNAV X approach. Not sure if Truckee had it as bad as we do down in the valley.

[@ivirusi1]

Everything seemed normal. Any ideas what happened?

[@tanneradamson5977]

My best guess would be loss of control or CFIT during the circle-to-land maneuver over to runway 11

[@VASAviation]

Seems like a sharp turn during the circling in rough weather

[@virginiatyree6705]

@@VASAviation , Tower said wind calm though. v

[@Micslmn]

Rough weather? Winds were reported calm..didn’t catch the sky conditions though and wonder if density altitude played a factor.

[@marty2872]

@@VASAviation the weather didn't seem that rough...

[@Sundog12]

Rest In Peace 🙏🏼. God bless all those involved

[@Jasonzw952]

Any idea what caused the sudden crash on that turn into the pattern?

[@VASAviation]

Seems like a sharp turn during the circling in rough weather

[@alant5757]

@@VASAviation Thank you VAS… Seems like so many people on other channels are jumping to “uninformed” conclusions. We shall see what other info comes out. Appreciate what you do. Thanks.

[@Secretarian]

The most cheery last words I've ever heard from a pilot about to buy it.

[@elcastorgrande]

Did smoke or other effects from west coast fires play any role? That second METAR shows winds swirling.

[@dingodango1]

Didn't you see the metar ? 3.5SM FU

[@robertbdesmond]

So what happened? Everything sounded pretty normal and then crash…

[@jakethadley]

My gosh, not even a hint of anything on the radio at all. No mayday/panpan/etc. - not even "we might have a potential issue developing". Heartbreaking, I hope the cause is determined and briefed out.

[@redmanish]

I’d bet it was an accelerated stall on approach. They were low enough that there likely would’ve been no time to react or communicate with tower. Just so sad and shows how fast things can go from fine to completely out of control. RIP crew and passengers.

[@arcdestriumph586]

Things got bad quickly at low altitude ...

[@Czshooter]

Saw this over on Reddit yesterday, very quick on the upload VAS. Terribly unfortunate, my condolences to the occupants.

[@Mediumdave1983]

What subreddit please?

[@Czshooter]

@@Mediumdave1983 r/flying here’s the link :) www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/os9xda/challenger_600_crash_at_ktrk_just_had_a_friend/?

[@Mediumdave1983]

@@Czshooter Thank you :)

[@eyadalsamaheeji5426]

Matter of seconds.. Heartbreaking. RIP

[@daveyoder9231]

So sorry to hear about the loss.

[@jackmehoffer1037]

I’m no aviation expert but when they said tight quarter. I’m thinking he should have flown a down wind to cross wind to final like a normal flight instead of banking hard left at low speed to try to make the runway. Probably to low and too slow and not proper flap setting to bank that sharply.

[@KingKo0]

You mean downwind to base and then final. Crosswind is the first turn after takeoff in the pattern.

[@ptsteinbach]

Some quick data: Truckee airport altitude is 5900 ft, temperature yesterday about 80F.

[@42dunbar]

Based on the radar data it looks like the RNAV approach put them on a left downwind for 11 and they were turning base to final when they impacted terrain.

[@cageordie]

@@42dunbar They overshot the centerline before impact, so not quite. As Matt Foster says, they dropped a wing before they went in. From that it sounds like they stalled turning finals. But eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable.

[@jackmehoffer1037]

@@KingKo0 I said no expert Ha ha, I fly rotary. We don’t need runways.

[@TT-by7tv]

When I flew fractional, I tried to get in here like 12 times never made it. It's a very tight airport for a Jet. Always diverted to Sacramento.

[@HuckThis1971]

I work for Bombardier Challenger in yul. Very shocked about this crash. These planes are built like tanks and have a very good reliability, longevity to them. My heart goes out to family members.

[@HuckThis1971]

@fooloof say that to a customer where a 604 went through an a 380 wake turbulence at cruise altitude and it inverted the aircraft. Pilot basically said if it wouldn't have been a 604, he they wouldn't be alive! 😉

[@coma13794]

1:28 "for runway LENGTH."

[@kevinallen1699]

What the hell happened during that final turn to runway 11. ???