Changes to the Doctrine & Covenants | Ep. 1655 | LDS Discussions Ep. 19

John & Mike discuss changes made to the Doctrine & Covenants. The Doctrine and Covenants is a book of modern-day revelations received by Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS). The book has undergone changes since its original publication, including changes to the wording of revelations, adding or removing sections, and altering the revelations to reflect the evolving theology of the church. This video discusses several examples of changes made to the book and provides quotes from church leaders and experts on the topic. Some of the changes were made to bolster Joseph Smith's authority or to align the revelations with the changing theology of the church. There are various opinions on why these changes were made, including the idea that Joseph Smith was co-authoring the revelations with God and that the revelations were expanding over time.
www.ldsdiscussions.com/change...
Chapters
00:00:00 Introduction
00:05:00 The Book of Commandments and the Doctrine and Covenants
00:12:00 Book of Mormon Witness David Witmer on the Changes
00:19:35 What church leaders have said about the changes
00:22:40 Two more quotes on changes to Joseph Smith’s revelations
00:23:50 D&C 5: I will grant him no other gift
00:27:00 D&C 5 gets changed to allow for Joseph’s expanded role
00:33:00 A Visual Look at D&C 5
00:35:40 Concerning (the Foundation of) My Church (D&C 18)
00:37:25 Changing D&C 18 to allow for Joseph’s later theology.
00:46:50 The Priesthood Restoration (D&C 20 and 27)
00:49:10 Changing the revelation to bolster Joseph’s authority
00:56:40 Book of Commandments 24 vs. DYC 20, BOC 28 vs. D&C 27
00:58:10 Polygamy/Plural Marriage (D&C 101:4 from original D&C)
01:05:40 Consecrate All of your Property to the Church (D&C 42)
01:08:40 Book of Commandments 44 vs. D&C 42
01:09:25 A Sprout, a Rod, or the Gift of Aaron (D&C 8)
01:16:00 Trying to Downplay Oliver’s Magical Worldview
01:17:40 Artist rendition of Oliver Cowdery using a divining rod
01:19:05 Adding in New Church Positions (D&C 20)
01:22:50 A Visual of the D&C 20 changes
01:26:20 The Parchment of John (D&C 7)
01:31:50 D&C 7 is altered to retrofit the priesthood restoration
01:36:10 Apologetics to Joseph Smith changing God’s revelations
01:42:00 Parley P. Pratt explains Joseph Smith’s revelatory process
01:43:50 Richard Bushman on Joseph Smith’s alterations of God’s words
01:48:50 Blake Ostler’s Expansion Model of Revelation
01:53:25 Problems that arise from having Joseph as a co-author
01:58:25 Boyd K. Packer addresses the changes to Joseph’s revelations
02:03:20 They know better and work to make sure members don’t
02:05:05 Hugh B. Brown cites two revelations he knows were changed
02:11:20 Conclusion on the changes to the Doctrine and Covenants
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
The Creation of the Mormon Church | LDS Discussions: • Joseph Smith’s First V...
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[@sookie.smooth]

I love Mike’s research plus his psychological explanations of the “faithfuls’” errors in logic. This is a significant contribution.

[@landonian1223]

19:30 whenever mike says "there's no way around that" about the facts of the situation, I always imagine a mormon responding, "hold my Swig"

[@ZakMakoff]

The D&C is so perplexing...as a young teen I would always ask , "Whats up with this" or How can that be" but no one could explain or answer my questions... I choose to Worship Heavenly Father and our Savior, Jesus Christ through music! LOL The Mormons can surely preach gospel through songs! But so do others Evangelical Religions. "Saturdays Warrior" an extension of the King Family helped bring thousands into the Gospel. Mike's Awesome with his research in these topics! Thank you Mormon Stories!

[@janemaas4225]

These are great. I sometimes have to listen to each session more than once because there is so much information to take in at one time. Thank you so much!!!

[@4Smitty1]

These series with Mike have been the most helpful for me and I left 3 yrs ago to help understand and process all the issues. Thanks Mike and John

[@kerriehansendoty3778]

I would also love more on Brigham Young. He is a deep dark well.

[@brooklynparkse]

I love these historical break downs! They’re extremely interesting. Could we have a series on Brigham Young, please? Thank you for all the work and prep, Mike.

[@gdog3finally]

It would be great to have a series of episodes with Mike where he shows factually how Brigham Young is a murderer, deviant sexual pervert, serial liar, counterfeiter and doctrine changer. Of course Mike could break it down and casually slow cook the meat for discussion relative to the Adam God Doctrine, Blood Atonement and usurpation.

[@iCanFlyWatchMe]

These have been hands down my favorite episodes! Thanks so much guys!

[@Abenn944]

If these essays gain traction within the current membership, the church is going to lose droves of people. So well done & full of damning evidence! @John we are having the same reactions as you are, thinking we’ve heard “it all” by now. You’re definitely not alone! TSCC: TRUTH MATTERS!

[@jamestrek2570]

Releasing the essays as a soft roll out has worked. As it’s been almost 10 years since they were released and even now most members have not heard of them. By the time the members realized anything about these essays it would’ve been 15 or 20 years since they’ve been released and members will feel almost stupid that they never knew about it. I too Being a faithful member of the church for many years I’m now looking back like “where was I” Everything else the church does gets publicly announced an email blastEd out to everyone

[@johnsmitty9295]

My favorite revelation is when it was revealed to Joseph by YHWH that Orson Hyde should be sent to Israel to bless that land for the return of the Jews. While Orson was travelling half-way around the world on this ridiculous errand, Joseph bedded Orson's wife, Nancy Marinda Hyde, for whom Joseph had lusted since she was a young teenager. I think I'm going to start having revelations.

[@hbendzulla8213]

This is a super good one. Joseph luster after Orsons wife.

[@Raoaone]

What’s YHWH?

[@Lunatic4Bizcas]

@@Raoaone : The actual unspoken unutterable name of the Hebrew God, which according to observant Jews should not be uttered, but to mainstream Christians including LDS, the transliteration amounts to Jehovah or Yahweh.

[@johnsmitty9295]

@@Raoaone YHWH (pronounced Yahweh--ancient Hebrew had no vowels) was the God invented by the Hebrews who Mormons refer to as Jehovah (a German translation of YHWH) or Elohim (Hebrew for "Gods"). The name "YHWH" could only be spoken by the High Priest once a year in the Holy of Holies room in the temple on Yom Kippur. This is the derivation of the commandment not to take the name of God in vain. The name of God is not God but YHWH.

[@lindalds]

And, of course, you know that Joseph Smith did this because you were there to witness it personally?

[@Clintcellington]

I've personally used " witches sticks" many times to find underground utilities and trenches with a very high success rate. I'm innthe excavation business. So its handy sometimes. It's actually a very basic scientific principle of how they react to electrical field differences. You need 2 rods of copper about the diameter of a coat hanger. You bend the rod at a 90° angle so you can float them loosely in your hands. You walk forward with the rods pointing straight forward and when you cross a trench or water source they spin toward each other and cross each other. Its pretty cool actually. But as far as using it for personal revelation...na, not too good for that lol

[@doctorquestian]

Every document from LDS is false, only the Bible is true. But..... One time I was on a walk with a friend, who is an ordained Lutheran minister, but at this particular moment in time, he was employed in a public school as a high school English teacher, where I was also employed. As we were walking across a section of land that his wife's family owned, and whose brother was also a US Representative and served as the lieutenant governor of our great state, he pulled out a pair of those copper rods. And he showed me exactly what you (Clintcellington) described. I had never seen that before, and I told him that he was trying to fool me, even though I never knew him to do that. He truly was a man who never lied to me, that I was aware of, and we had even prayed together. He said, "You try it." And so I did, and much to my astonishment, those copper rods moved on their own. I now know what you speak of. It's not magic.

[@brianfolsen1919]

My dad could find water underground with two pieces of metal. I think coat hangers or something. I saw him do it a couple times. It isn't magic....

[@seahorse9940]

God is all knowing and all wise, he doesn't change his mind. Wake up people.

[@bookermoron2409]

Oliver Cowdery was a Rodsman? Joseph also had a rod and one of his biggest problems was using his rod far too often.

[@function0077]

Perhaps Joseph clung to his rod far too often, but at the very least I think he allowed himself to be led by his rod far too often.

[@teresapitman1659]

I am learning so much from these presentations. Thank you, John and Mike!

[@rosemariebennett7213]

I had absolutely no idea of these changes. I always had a hard time with D and C anyway

[@purpleyoshi4020]

I'm with an escapee of BYU and the church in Utah and he considers interacting with you guys but we're afraid of his family finding out and his dad is scary but he signed that paper that says the church has to stop contacting him but that wouldn't stop the church from making our kids grandpa crazy mad at us and he is really helpful during these times so but omg it literally seems alien to someone from liberal parents in Portland Oregon and now I'm just connected to a survivor of an alien world and I'm sure I got recommended your podcast because I was researching trying to understand but really the whole world is so alien and there are subtleties in all of you who are free but still healing just subtle micro expressions and etc but I think you all are a light in the dark and you will show people a way out, I believe even my kids grandpa is close to seeing the truths and I'd feel free to be shaking angry about all of the tithes and that system by itself, I'm angry for you when you can find a way to feel something else about it

[@dorifrance4937]

Thank you for fixing the audio quality. The information being shared in the video is very important to hear, and the audio quality took away from that info being shared. The work you put in to gather this info really shows.

[@sookie.smooth]

I love learning the history, but there’s something about the sound that makes me feel extreme panic. It’s a little less so, but I still feel it. I think I have weird hearing problems others don’t have. To me, it sounds like the guest has too much treble and no bass with soundproofing to cut out all extraneous sounds. I wonder of there’s an app I can send it through? (Maybe it would be healthier for me to work on sending it through my therapist’s DBT filter.) Could you share what was “broken” regarding the sound before?

[@iamjustsaying1]

Excellent series! I learn something new every time Mike presents.

[@jordanhintze1881]

I thought this was already up? I watched about a quarter of it last night.

[@daynefrancom6354]

I was just thinking am I going crazy?

[@rustyshell2]

Probably editing it? Idk

[@mikez1114]

Ronald Poelman is redoing it. 🤣

[@Mark_McC]

The audio was jacked up at certain points, I’m guessing that’s what’s up. They’re fixing yesterday’s broadcast for a reupload.

[@humanbeing5396]

New revelation through the peep stone in the hat.

[@ohtobeasuriel]

That parchment of John shit is wild. WILD. I'd never heard any of that before. Not just the claimed revelation, not just the change to it to support his priesthood restoration and first vision retrofitting, but also the implications for the Book of Abraham catalyst theory or lack of golden plates and the inability for current prophets to get revelation about really anything. Wow.

[@jadylasilvacastelobranco3756]

I wish we could have more information like these in Portuguese, back here in Brazil we know nothing.

[@mormonstories]

I totally agree. Brazil needs a Mormon Stories.

[@marcantoine2118]

@@mormonstories where can i find all the information of your programs un spanish? KZbin translation is very bad i need the episode about the 2 facsímil of Abraham book cause that episode even dont have translation i need this one too and others of book of mormon i cant find this in spanish

[@adamholloway7963]

I am enjoying this series! Mike is great!

[@susanaanderson3150]

Love this episodes. Great work on all the research.

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

Daniel C Peterson publicly within the last 5 years has said he KNOWS water witching works. He has done it and it is real to him.

[@johnfleming7879]

When I was going to drill a well to irrigate a garden,the old man who was showing me how to do it asked if I believed we could find the spot to drill like that.Of course he was joking, but it was something others had done around him over the years. Its not hard to find aquifers in Florida, by the way. We put the well where we could get a pump near it(electrical power) )

[@function0077]

Perhaps the change from "sprout" to "rod" was made because of the rod of Aaron (Moses's brother) from the Bible, which is more defensible from a biblical perspective.

[@ginacodding4135]

A crazy thing about how many revelations JS received, but no one else, is how short his life was. Its not like he died at an old age.

[@slicgreendueler4884]

Does anyone else hear that Joseph cannot “pretend” to any other ability? But it’s ok if he “Pretends” to what he is currently doing!?!? Do we need to define what pretend means?

[@danite1742]

Critic: the leaders say "We haven't been hiding anything from the members of the church and we are being as honest as we know how." Apologetic: When the leader say "WE" they are referring to themselves and the mouse in their pocket 🐁

[@danite1742]

@@randyjordan5521 Exactly

[@Moksha-Raver]

As Dr. Daniel Peterson pointed out, to best use a dowsing rod you must be riding on a tapir. Best to follow the procedure divined by the BYU department of Near East languages.

[@Moksha-Raver]

Dr. Petetson is able to use his rod to point at a map and find the best travel destinations, from Bora Bora to Calgary Canada, and Zürich Switzerland.

[@chriscross5188]

@@Moksha-Raver sorry, I am not a native speaker. Do you mean that Dr. Peterson uses folk magic?

[@Moksha-Raver]

@@chriscross5188 I was joking. While Dr. Peterson has used a dowsing rod, there is no evidence he has issued any Dust Your Boots curses at the Interpreter Foundation.

[@scotthammond6595]

Dan Vogel’s book “Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet” posits Smith got his ideas for the BoMor from events in his own life, almost like allegories! Because he made up the stories, it was getting difficult keeping the deception going. That would explain why Smith had to keep going back and make changes to the D&C.

[@whitesalamander]

Another profound program illustrating how gullible we Mormons are and exmos were.👏

[@pioneercynthia1]

"Heresy is in the prepositions." . . This is a phrase I've often heard in Catholic theological circles; maybe because Catholicism developed / understood the original doctrines, and thus had the power to declare which ideas were ortho- or heterodox. (It may be heard in other religions, but I haven't seen it.)

[@drakelazerus]

Thanks guys. Also do you guys recommend any specific counselling to provide a softer landing for those who maybe experience a faith crisis? Maybe an idea for a new youtube channel or episode. The willingness to be wrong is a virtue of any honest truth seeker and being open to other possibilities is what leads to getting closer to reality. The Apologetics are a slippery bunch that morphs, that you can't pin down, kind of like the fun toy slime in your hands, only a lot less fun to deal with. If Joseph would have just announced additions to previous Revelations rather than clandestinely going back and editing existing, it would have provided more validity, but instead it undermines the truth claims of the original.

[@user-te5pq3un9i]

Can you make a short of Mike’s closing advice? I would love to share it and refer to it myself.

[@pioneercynthia1]

Many people _outside_ of Utah practice dowsing, and for all kinds of purposes other than finding suitable sites for wells. Even I own dowsing rods, though I don't use them for anything other than amusement.

[@kentthalman4459]

Changes in the first person language of god talking to JS and us was a very big problem for me.

[@andrewshakespeare2691]

The D&C about "a man shall have one wife and a woman but one husband" - it's sneaky, lawyerly wording deliberately intended to create the opposite impression, but it's not denying polygamy "A man shall have one wife" doesn't say he can't have two wives, three wives or however many he fancies. Just that he should be married "A woman shall have BUT one husband", in the other hand, means she can be married to only one man at a time.

[@rosemariebennett7213]

I have a question for Mike. How long were you a member of the church and how and when did you leave ?

[@Liz-hr6hf]

As I listen to this, I have no idea how I ever believed this. It’s all so fabricated.

[@Raoaone]

How do you find the previous show (reccomended to hear before this one) on KZbin?

[@mormonstories]

kzbin.info/aero/PLxq5opj6GqOB7J1n6pMmdUSezxcLfsced

[@ks4893-m8v]

Personally I think dowsing rods could work for some people by tapping into things our subconscious figures out that we don't know consciously. The book Blink by Malcom Gladwell mentions that our subconscious notices patterns in cause and effect more quickly than our conscious mind. I think getting answers to prayer may similarly tap into the "wisdom" of our subconscious.

[@Ak74-247]

Dowsing works 👍

[@jamestrek2570]

Are you guys doing a video on changes to BOM also?

[@beboystyle620]

So the iron rod now makes more sense! I don’t recall, does the Bible mention anything like a rod? I can’t believe they would lie to us! But I see why they would! It’s all about money!

[@gregord1986]

Ok so why aren't there more sections added to the Utah Mormons D&C, maybe like the proclamation on the family?

[@jdarkwind]

The whole thing about him being limited to translating the book of Mormon makes me wonder why Joseph never used the trump card in his pocket, which would be "translating" the sealed 2/3 of the gold plated in order to introduce new doctrines.

[@beauhawkes3221]

How are all these people still hooked on this cult of lies?

[@jeffreyallen3561]

Dowsing works! Heck, I can dowse.

[@MsCaterific]

🤎 Soooo juicy!!!

[@The_Other_Ghost]

Aaron's rod?

[@joycegrover1146]

I do need one thing from you John concerning the Bk of Mormon! You haven’t really shown me how JS wrote the book! I’ve listened to your ideas but that’s a lot of story to have memorized and snuck in during the translation process without Emma, Martin, Oliver Cowdry , or David whitmer ever referring to it! Take even one chapter! Just take one chapter and explain realistically how he pulled that off! I agree that church needs to be open with all things! Think we believers are big enough to know the truth!

[@mormonstories]

We’ve covered this multiple times with multiple people. Dan Vogel. John Hamer. Steve Pynakker. LDS Discussion. Grant Palmer. Google them.

[@teresapitman1659]

I will just add that there are many writers who dictate their work, often without notes. They have in their heads the idea of the story and where it's going to go even though it's not memorized word for word. The author of the Perry Mason books, for example, dictated his stories, and they had complicated plots with hidden clues throughout. He did use a dictaphone some of the time, but also dictated directly to his secretaries. It is just not that difficult to do!

[@joycegrover1146]

Appreciate your response! I know what your saying, and hopefully you’ll understand my thoughts! I have to just agree that we disagreee but that’s ok! I’ve listened but no one has rightfully addressed the fact that no one saw notes! To have memorized -1 verse of Isaiah would be difficult let alone chapter after chapter! If the premise is he copied it? Have any of those discussing it really made a good case of when or where that took place! I’ll review their ideas before taking your time but again thanks for responding?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Well, all of those witnesses to the process have only provided very brief descriptions of the central feature, namely the fact that Joseph Smith would put his seer stone in a hat and claim to be reading words shown by the stone. AFAIK, there is no lengthy and detailed journal provided by Emma, Martin, Oliver or David regarding the step-by-step, chapter-by-chapter process of the "translation". For example, with regard to the wholesale copying of passages of Isaiah, it's not hard to imagine Joseph telling them that the seer stone has revealed to him that the contents to be written are already contained in the Bible...and then Joseph could simply have then used the relevant Isaiah passages found in the Bible "as instructed by the seer stone". There is never going to be a "smoking gun" exhaustive blow-by-blow account of the translation process details, which took place over a long period of time. None of the witnesses seemed inclined to say much about it. But knowing what we do know, I think each person sincerely wanting to know the truth has to ask themself whether it's more likely that Joseph Smith employed some kind of gimmick for basically copying verbatim passages from the KJV of the Bible that his family owned or whether it's more likely that a magic stone glowed in the dark to show him several chapters' worth of words from the golden plates that exactly matched the King James Version of the Bible. (Think of how cumbersome the latter scenario would have been. The peepstone was smaller than a baseball. How much text could be displayed on the peepstone at a time? How long would it have taken to read off a few words at a time? Would it have been like trying to dictate the text of Hamlet displayed on a screen equivalent to two text lines on a smartphone?) As for the parts that weren't virtually copied word for word from the Bible, it's not the impossible task that you seem to think it is. Joseph Smith was already known as being a prolific storyteller...and the subject matter of his storytelling was the ancient civilization and people who inhabited America. Think of stand-up comedians who perform 1-, 2- and 3-hour shows based on routines that they have rehearsed and memorized. What Joseph Smith did was much less impressive than that. All he had to do is spend some time developing his stories in his own mind and then retelling them...slowly...while he pretended to be...slowly...reading off words from the stone. No need to trip himself up by going fast. If he couldn't recall some element of the story he had in mind, he could just pause until something came to him, and the excuse for the pause would be the stone not showing him anything for a few moments. You should go look at the very first edition of the Book of Mormon. It's very different from the polished, edited, grammar-corrected version that exists today, complete with chapters and verses and footnotes. And recall how Joseph Smith could not duplicate the 116 pages that Martin Harris lost. A magic stone would have no problem duplicating the text. But a guy who was making up stories and names would maybe be able to come up with a similar set of stories, but would not be able to duplicate the lost texts.

[@joycegrover1146]

@@TEAM__POSEID0N surprised but pleased by your response! If the Bible had been brought out and copied because seer stone revealed this to be done I would think someone else somewhere in the process would have mentioned that! Esp since Oliver had to rewrite the entire work for the printing! ! Somewhere bible use would have been mentioned by someone ( in my way of thinking)! There are words ( even sentences)in several instances in the book of Mormon version that differs from the KJV of the Bible Isaiah! Remind me what version (yr) of king James did Joseph have available to copy from? Aside from all that, as I read Nephi’s reasons for including the writings of Isaiah it really gives me pause that these heart felt words are Joseph Smiths words!! The Bk of M is so much more than words but thoughts and feelings and testimonies of heartfelt truths of several, so many different people ( interconnected people) over a period of 1000 yrs! ! And, question? What would worse case senecio be if that book happened to be what it claims to be and does no more than it’s purpose “ to show unto the world that Jesus is indeed the Christ”! Would that be a bad thing! Maybe we should hope it to be so! Why do we work so to prove it otherwise? Just asking! Can understand distrust of several issues you bring up but they seem to be more of the errors of men that dismay us! Christ himself not the enemy! Thanks for allowing me to voice my thoughts!

[@function0077]

If the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency wants to get better at remote viewing, they need the help of the Mormons (e.g. Joseph Smith's remote viewing is documented in D&C 7). /s

[@jamestrek2570]

That quote by packer claiming that the changes were only minor grammatical & spelling was not just from an ensign article. That was a GENERAL CONFERENCE TALK. to say that there were no fundamental changes is simply FALSE and an out right LIE.

[@rosemariebennett7213]

Wow. This is how Joseph was able to hide his polygamy. He lied to Emma from the very beginning. She should have listened to her father and not marry him. Yet, through it all, she stayed with him . She was an intelligent, gifted woman who was held spell bound , in my opinion.

[@function0077]

I feel cheated by Mormonism! When I was a good little Mormon, I was never given a magic stick and a magic rock! /s

[@1000huzzahs]

Water divination is still practiced by some people and like... it weirdly works for a lot of people? It's not associated with religion or magic, it's more like just another tool (L-rods). Someone else here said it's still practiced by indigenous folks, apparently effectively. Like, some UK contractor companies apparently still do this to locate pipes. It's... weird.

[@rosemariebennett7213]

So , Joseph was actually practicing folklore and witchery and somehow made it to be from God. He was definitely not listening to Jesus but the opposite being ! Especially with polygamy.

[@MKConnecticut]

How SAD that Mike is a CONVERT! I hate to say it, but that must feel awful. This is FABULOUS work. Congrats on saying the TRUTH

[@cantsay]

I work in wastewater treatment, I would say dowsing rods were fools magic, but I've seen several people make it work incredibly accurately. IDK...

[@joycegrover1146]

Remind me your definition of a seer! One who looks through a stone? That’s it?? Can’t see future without the stone!

[@hbendzulla8213]

This Mike,is really phenomenal. he is one of the greatest story tellers, I have ever listen to . The fastest talking Mormon apologist. Yes very knowledgeable, but also very full of it. I have spoken, this is the truth.

[@gramyhaze8195]

You consider him to be an apologist for the church? I thought he is an ex mo. Am I wrong?

[@hbendzulla8213]

@@gramyhaze8195 He could be a ex Mormon, I really don’t think so but I could be wrong. Yes he is he comes up with reasons and excuses with the flip of a finger. He surely is sharp like a pencil he should run for a politician job. He could also be running undercover for the Mormon church. The church works in mysterious ways, not transparent.

[@sandiwalker7564]

I think you are misunderstanding his sarcasm at times.

[@hbendzulla8213]

@@sandiwalker7564 your right

[@hbendzulla8213]

@@sandiwalker7564 not at all

[@dudesjewels]

The FreeMason Joe Smith haha 😂😆😂 so Decieved

[@joycegrover1146]

Iam sincerely sorry you have found so much to disappoint you! I was raised like you but because I see and feel for myself the truth of bk of Abraham and the Book of Mormon I am not so thrown by all these things! Appreciate what your trying to do however! Belief in church if based on mere mortals and no belief in Devine intervention will not hold up! If we can’t feel the Devine in it then it is disappointing!

[@joycegrover1146]

@@randyjordan5521 Two sides to every story! A flood? No flood? Etc,etc! Who can definitely say which is correct! We each go with what we determine right after we study it out and come to our conclusions! Both can’t be right but we can agree to disagree and still respect each other! Appreciate your responses?

[@joycegrover1146]

@@randyjordan5521 Just a thought? How do we know word Egypt did not exist in time of Abraham! Don’t we have a Bible story of Abraham going to Egypt! Iam confused unless like the flood the Old Testament is an imaginary story?

[@joycegrover1146]

@@randyjordan5521 Randy, I guess I just didn’t realize that the King James Old Testament that I have is a book you do not believe to be credible! That makes a big difference in this discussion! My Bible says God told Abraham to go into Egypt! You know the name Abraham is or was found in Egypt! If the area was not named Egypt until. 300 something BC then they ( whoever put the OT together ) surly did not know that? Would appreciate your source on the history you related about Egypt not known by that name until later! Appreciate it! Something I was never aware of!

[@joycegrover1146]

@@randyjordan5521 I find your references interesting! Sadly however, It seems to be that one must choose for themselves which story is right for them as all versions can’t be true! Wish it could just be cut and dry and we didn’t have to try to decide whose stories to believe! I get the feeling that many choose any other than Joseph’s story due to their distrust of the man himself(Joseph)! I haven’t written him off as a fraud myself and therefore have trust in his works! But I have a couple of questions ! 700 references in the Old Testament with Egypt being called Egypt! My quick research sees your validity in you name source etc! So how many editions of our current day Bible would we have to go back to find a rendition of the Old Testament where the land is called a name rather than Egypt? Just asking if you have any idea? I surely don’t! Then in regards to the Bk of Abraham! we do not believe that the entire bk as we have it came from the fragments of the scroll we have right ? My understanding is that Joseph had a lengthy scroll and have read opinions that perhaps he didn’t even complete the entire scroll or at least it was not published.? Again, Everyone has a different idea on any subject ! If however the fragments are (according to Egypt Scholars) a funeral related thing and not as Abraham described them via Joseph then we must therefore know the entire scroll story a fraud? Is that the thinking or have I got it wrong! Just had the thought regardless of what’s right and what’s wrong if Bible Scholars can put the name Egypt in the Old Testament but Joseph should know better!

[@joycegrover1146]

@@randyjordan5521 So let me see if Iam understanding correctly! Your saying the only source JS had were those 3 fragments and the entire BOA was a made up book? Ok, but I had looked into all this years ago and as you know there is the whole other side with the whole different story! So again -- doesn’t that mean as individuals we have to decide which story is right! It’s a lot like the vaccinate issue! Those for the vaccine have all their reasons why it’s a good thing and those against have all their reasons why it’s not a good thing??? What’s right not always easy to know! Best you can do is look well into both sides and make your own decision! The BOA I have to stick with because one side just rings more true to me than the other! As far as the whole issue about whether Christ even has a church on the earth today?… I was an early believer that a restoration of his authority was to occur before he comes again! Have to run but yes, translation of Bible into Greek makes sense for Egypt to appear in that rendition but may I just ask?…..If JS did receive BOA through revelation why wouldn’t God use Egypt as for how many years since 300 something bc that’s what we have known it called! Why would anyone retelling a story of Abraham( Even the Lord thru JS ) use any other name than one everyone had used for hundreds of years! The one in our scriptures for hundreds of years! That fact alone (Egypt) makes entire work a fraud!

[@gumbycat5226]

If there really were prophets then things would naturally evolve with time. It is one of the most amazing facts about Mahomed that his teachings are regarded by his followers as immutable. Already by the 1780s when Gibbon wrote so profoundly about him, many aspects of his tenants seemed absurd and barbaric. But the unchanging, unchallengeable word of god - for me the ossification of the current Mormon church is a parallel. They have established a set of tenants - based on shaky foundations to be sure -- but there they are, and the current leadership - rather than being "prophets" and able to change with the changing nature of society, clings like Mahomed's followers, to something that grows daily more strange. For historians, "the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there." For people trapped in ossified religions, this is actually seen as a virtue. The value of your analysis is therefore not in the way it criticizes the changing nature of Joseph Smith's leadership - something one would expect from a real prophet - but in that it is yet another way of looking at the fraudulent nature of Joseph Smith's claims. But then any sensible person would know that about any religion after Darwin in 1859. They are all frauds, hacks, charlatans. In your thinking I would council you to avoid racist assumptions such as criticizing JS and OC for water divination, when the same type of magic is practiced without criticism by indigenous Americans and Africans.

[@stevemitchell8267]

All religions are absurd except mine. All of the thousands of gods invented by cultures over thousands of years are fictional except my God invented by the Israelites. How do I know? I feel it by the spirit of Casper the Holy Ghost.

[@MKConnecticut]

You know what.? JEWS have a solid story. All of us Christians? Meh… not so good. I grew up strict catholic and it took every cell in my body to walk away. That’s why I’m cuddling close to the Mormon stories- I’m feeling a kindred spirit

[@IBNED]

Quinn was exed because he was gay NOT for writing the book on the magic world view

[@mormonstories]

Not true.

[@IBNED]

@@mormonstories Not a fan of promoting false information. Being as Church court info is kept private I would be sincerely interested in your source especially sense we do know that he is gay.

[@IBNED]

@@randyjordan5521 I am familiar with the standard story. My view runs around his being exed in Absentia. I "think" he just didn't want to answer the questions around the subject of his sexuality because he came out shortly thereafter. JOMO

[@IBNED]

@@randyjordan5521I could buy that one. How about it being a combo issue?

[@IBNED]

@@randyjordan5521 Sorry your SP was a jerk. That is one of the many issues with the institutional Church. I prefer the gospel principles...separating the gospel and the Church makes such a difference