The Global Flood and Mormon Scripture | Ep. 1623 | LDS Discussions Ep. 12

[@waterfall_brook]

Can I just express how impressed and touched I am by Mike's gentle approach to faith-challenging information? I've been seeking for years to find ways to bridge the distance between myself and believing friends and family members, and Mike's kindness, his supportive attitude, and his good-heartedness in the way he presents hard information is an inspiration. Thank you!

[@amandacollins518]

He's my favorite, aside from Margie.

[@ryant6134]

Current non-active Mormon here. I grew up Mormon and I served a mission. I love the church and it’s people. That said, I love truth more, no matter how uncomfortable it is. I appreciate how you approach these topics. That is, you don’t come across as bashing or belittling the Church.

[@willieclark2256]

I have attention issues but I've paid attention to every minute of this series and John Larsens interviews. Thank you for the info but also the practice

[@themidcenturyzillennial]

Same here

[@jy285]

I loved John’s thoughts at the end, and I share his zeal for these episodes. I’m one of the ppl who appreciates the analysis and discussion of what Mike has compiled, and this collection will be such an amazing resource in the future. Thank you both for all of the hard work!

[@oopsiesh]

Feedback: I prefer you don't keep it "really tight and really short" ( 1:20:40 ) I Love the analysis and I appreciate the commentary, especially the John D and Mike duo.

[@janetmitchell4452]

They are passed down stories to help a people who did not read, nor write understand the world around them. As a non practicing Catholic, one who worked over 20 years for the curch and someone who studied scripture I have so much enjoyed your program, many of us non Mormans can relate.

[@lilith4924]

Thanks for another great installment from Mike. He is really to be commended for compiling this much information about the church's claims, and he's always a pleasure to listen to. I was thrilled that he brought in the connections to Gilgamesh, since this perspective was lacking in the otherwise stellar episode with Simon Southerton and the geologist on the flood. But my favorite moment in this episode was when Mike pointed out that God drowned everyone in the flood, according to Genesis, but at the same time Jesus leveled entire cities when he came to the Americas, according to the Book of Mormon. I really appreciate the reminder that God's behavior is problematic everywhere: in the Old Testament, in the New Testament, in the Book of Mormon, in the Doctrine and Covenants, in the Temple--everywhere. (The examples are really too numerous to list.) It's cheap to write off the Old Testament God as cruel and then pretend those same problems don't pervade all our scripture and liturgy, while simultaneously ignoring all of the passages in the Old Testament that portray God as deeply concerned with social justice and frequently suspicious of religious institutions.

[@barb9465]

This series is amazing. Breaking this all down is so incredibly helpful. Thank you Mike and John for doing this. I really look forward to these episodes.

[@themidcenturyzillennial]

John + mike~ I am loving this series. As a never Mormon (though I feel pretty well versed after years of MSP) who hasn't read the full Book of Mormon and someone who has a very surface level Christian background, this series has been so informative not only about Mormonism but also about the Bible. This is so valuable and I love long form :)

[@debbiebuttars5598]

Mike is so knowledgeable. I appreciate these podcasts for the clear presentations of Mormon teachings and “revelation” that are completely bogus. I don’t have enough understanding of the Bible or religious myths to connect the dots on my own. But Mike does! The discussion and expansion are perfect and so necessary. Thanks for what you both do. ❤️

[@Geospasmic]

Ive been making my way through the series and I'm really glad you reccomended listening in order, it really has helped me follow the threads and get a lot more out of what You're putting out. Huge thanks!

[@glory5110]

Thank you, excellent discussion. Sorry I missed the stream!

[@jillwhite4398]

I'm loving this series so much, and learning a great deal each episode. I always thought evangelical christians must live with a great deal of denial, but I can't imagine the amount of suffering Mormons must do to get through the day! Thank you for increasing my capacity for empathy with each installment ❤

[@lauraburdett8932]

The problem is that the authors had no way to imagine that there would be a time where the stories could be proven to be untrue.

[@cmotherofpirl]

Excellent.

[@EmilyBigelow]

I’ll pay you both on the back…. This series is amazing! Thank you both for doing this.

[@marlenemeyer9841]

Favorite Mike Quote: “If you can’t apply the same critical thinking to your own church that you apply to others……That’s a red flag!” Love it! Thank you!

[@lizzieb19450]

Again loving the series!

[@dallinredd6419]

I'm voting for Mike 2024!

[@dallinredd6419]

@LDS Discussions honestly here, you are doing an amazing job and helping so many people. Thanks for being authentic and being yourself and not trying to be anything else. I can tell you are a very humble guy, and just want to share truth, that's why so many people are gravitating to your episodes, and your site. Keep up the great work!

[@pioneercynthia1]

I saw The Book of Mormon in Chicago and had balcony seats. My date had to hold my arm because I was laughing so hard I was in danger of falling over the railing. At least I had the foresight to bring some handkerchiefs to wipe my running mascara. 😂

[@adamholloway7963]

I'm enjoying these episodes! Around 48:00 into the video, there is a quote attributed to Bruce R. McConkie: "Bruce R. McConkie: "The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. Noah was taken to the Old World by the Flood. This teaching was given by Joseph Smith and is still accepted as true doctrine. Given this teaching, Mormons have to accept the flood as a global phenomenon." (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, "Adam-Ondi-Ahman" p. 19-20)" I have looked at multiple versions of Mormon Doctrine but I have not been able to find that specific quote. Can you please provide the specific year, edition, and printing number where the above quote can be found? A direct link to it would be ideal, if possible. I did, however, find the following quote in the versions I searched: "In the days of Noah the Lord sent a universal flood which completely immersed the whole earth and destroyed all flesh except that preserved on the ark. (Gen. 6; 7; 8; 9; Moses 7:38-45; 8; Ether 13:2.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Flood of Noah, Mormon Doctrine, 1958, p 268 & Bruce R. McConkie, Flood of Noah, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd Edition, 33rd printing, 1989, p 289 & Bruce R. McConkie, Flood of Noah, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd Edition, 37th printing, 1994, p 289)

[@HansBergh]

I love the analysis of the content.

[@davidlewis7602]

Thank you for a great video and discussion. The Bible is not a history book. It is a collection of stories written by different authors on how they found their faith in God. Did these writers intend its readers to literally believe its stories, or did they intend us to seek a metaphysical or spiritual meaning from its stories? Is the Bible true? It depends on how you define the word "true." A story does not have to be factually correct to convey a powerful moral lesson. The story of The Three Little Pigs is not factual, yet it conveys the powerful moral lesson "Do It Right." The Bible has become a very important literary work because it conveys many lessons we can use to live a more productive life. The Bible also helps many people see or find God. I am not a Mormon but I was considering to be one. I believe that Joseph Smith, Jr, was a great treasure hunter, a great story teller, a man with a very strong sexual drive, a great charismatic manipulator, and one that found a way to support his family by creating a new religion. His life style ultimately lead to his imprisonment and murder due to his practice of polygyny and polyandry; The Counsel of Fifty; being crowned King of the Earth; and treasonous behavior of running for President of the United States in order to change the name of the country to the United States of Mormonism. The LDS Church must deal with the issues about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, the gold plates, and other relics. I came to the conclusion that the LDS Church was false and decided not to be a member. However, each Mormon needs to make up his or her own mind about the truthfulness of the Mormon doctrine. Perhaps there is some moral fortitude associated with the faith. Please keep producing very interesting videos. You are doing a great service in discussing controversial subjects in the LDS Church. I have learned so much.

[@phrog849]

I've tried for years to force myself to believe. I can't get over Adam and Eve and the global flood and its necessary to the religion.

[@sjenson6694]

It was stolen from other cultures as the epic of Gilgamesh.. the Bible version was plagiarized and embellished in a way that makes it literally worthless as an event or as a tale to build faith. I feel sad for people actually do have faith in stuff that never happened. What a waste of mental energy.

[@lauracorsi3309]

I knew of a person growing up who did not make any end of life arrangements because he was told in his partriarchal blessing that Jesus would come again before he died. He had a very literal belief. He was past retirement age when I knew him as a teen, so he is probably gone now. I feel bad for his kids who no doubt had to make arrangements, but for him it would have been a failure on his part and he would have been not valiant enough to God if he had made arrangements.

[@pcoleman2562]

I love this series. I'm learning a lot from it and look forward to each episode. But also Mike chill out a bit, take your time, take a breath. And also yes, we get it you're still a member, you're just not active. I've probably heard you say that 100+ times by now haha. Message received

[@debbiequick9670]

I like the analysis, some of what you say I never would’ve thought about.

[@sedg83]

It never occurred to me that other people took Noah's ark literally... Like it's frequently depicted in nursery items, and it just always made sense to me that it was a story that only children would believe

[@carriereid4234]

"These are not the droids you're looking for!!" Fabulous

[@kentthalman4459]

The volume of information disproving the global flood could fill a library. In fact the last time I attended church was after hearing primary leaders teaching little children about the global flood. That was it, the last straw.

[@jodidobson4551]

Loving the series, although Mike and John tend to repeat a lot when making a point using several different scenarios that aren’t needed. Mike tends to circle back to much. I’m learning a lot and I’m thankful for the time you both put forth.

[@iyamwhatiyam2748]

Randall Carlson talks about a flood (not global) caused by meteors in the north that melted enough ice to significantly raise ocean levels.

[@deskjockie4948]

There are flood myths in just about every culture in the world. Carlson, as well as several others, believe there is ample evidence of a cataclysmic event that melted the ice cap and caused major flooding. This event also caused the deaths of mega fauna like mastodons, saber tooth tigers and giant sloths, as well as much of the human population.

[@cindys9491]

13:50 "if the Church wasn't true, would you want to know" or, for other denominations, if the Bible (or any story in it) wasn't literally true, would you want to know.

[@jesse1008]

In my opinion you guys are telling us what we need to hear not what we want to hear.

[@joetaylor8687]

John: Here's a question for you. (You talk to a lot of people and have a pretty good feel for trends and current events) Are you at all familiar with a phenomenon I'd categorize as informal disfellowship? I've been a bit critical of "the Church" on various "social media" venues, but still participate (my wife is pretty consistent with sacrament meeting attendance, although she won't ever go to any F & T meetings) . . . but it seems like people in the ward are markedly less friendly than they used to be back when we were pretty much in the "main stream" of activity. Seems to me like it could be a mechanism used these days, because gossip has always been prevalent, and it seems like it could now be somewhat of a chickens__t response to people who are considered "inactive" and / or non-compliant in notable ways, but would avoid the tension, discomfort, and / or hazards possible with direct confrontation. Anything out there that you're aware of, of suspicious about? Thanks. jt

[@joannediaz2055]

Not only would this have been tragic because of the number of innocent people and animals who would have died, but the WAY they would have died is horrific.

[@Terminatorguy34]

There were no innocent people but Noah and his family

[@Britbec]

When you are so gullible, you believe Noah’s ark was real at the age of 42….until you read the CES letter and start deconstructing EVERYTHING. Thanks you two! Excellent work Mike.

[@scottbrandon6244]

This is one reason why Progressive Mormonism is on the rise. People are realizing much of the Bible is not the way we thought it was.

[@Perestroika_s]

I love this

[@bonojennett]

45:20 The "baptism of the earth" doctrine by Joseph Fielding Smith was definitely something that we always emphasized on our mission. Then the earth burning/melting "with fervent heat" from Peter was another indicator that we needed to receive the exclusive "Gift of the Holy Ghost" to prepare for the paradisiacal glory of the earth. It was also perpetuated to believe in things like "the expansion theory" that when the earth was burned, it would expand to populate all those beings and creatures that existed. Does anybody know if this teaching was from Orson Pratt or other early church leaders? And did anyone else learn these things on their missions?

[@dl1130]

Does the church still believe the Saints will return to Jackson County in the last days?

[@denz4133]

Yes

[@FFM115]

Yes, that’s why they’re investing billions in Florida, go figure

[@Moksha-Raver]

Maybe a future episode could be devoted to the doozie explanations offered by apologists over the years. Such an episode could be very entertaining. Perhaps Gerardo could even find that graphic of Dr. Daniel Peterson decked out as Carmen Miranda. Boom Tapir Boom!!!

[@hollih4839]

My mind is blown by all of these episodes. Thank you for doing this. I was the member who just believed and didn't ever look into anything. But then the fundamentals cults caught my eye and I was so intrigued. Then found "year of polygamy" podcast and my heart was SO broken. I had seen the mormon stories billboards and was afraid for years to look at them. Until my heart was broken. I've listened to a lot of those podcasts and then found these. There is more proof that it's all made up then it is real.

[@davidfitnesstech]

22:34 - At the creationist exhibit "Ark Encounter" .. they have actually included DINOSAURS that were brought onto the ark. They show every type of animal being kept in stalls. These creationists are in a bizarro world. Bending reality is no problem for them.

[@dannylemmon7123]

34:57 sounds like a great way to deliver presents globally once per year.

[@alexandertwol]

Imma be honest, this is the first one that I feel like should’ve been like 15 minutes max. Just the FAIR mormon slide and the whole “Noah’s a largely well known myth” would’ve been good enough for me and anyone I know who’s been following along. I get the thoroughly done episodes but still.

[@Molypop9]

I like the science

[@TravisTuckett]

The statement by Elder Holland is not about the flood, but rather about the dividing of the continents that the Bible says took place in the day of Peleg

[@jimmycoulson4534]

I didn’t know until today, that biblical literalism is largely a modern phenomenon. The more I walk away from my Evangelical upbringing the closer I find myself to God.

[@Mon-Alisa]

Has this been added to the LDS Discussions playlist?

[@mormonstories]

Yes!

[@mattjohansson8931]

Once again good work guys!! John you mentioned behavioural patterns with Joseph. I'd love to hear a psychological profile, based on what you guys are seeing... Is he a compulsive liar, a well meaning deluded fool.... why all the Bs when he clearly knows its wrong. Is he a slightly narcissistic, story teller, that needs q crowd. It's hard working out his intent. The why, we know he did what he did, but why

[@phrog849]

54:00 You keep saying that ancient people didn't believe in a literal flood that it was more figurative. If you study what early people believed on the global flood, it is definite that it was a belief in a literal flood. We even find early Christians like Theophilus, Origen, and Arnobius citing Plato and Varro for their belief in a literal flood via the Roman flood myth.

[@lilith4924]

Thank you for pointing this out. Just because early Christians read the text of the Old Testament on multiple levels doesn't mean they excluded the literal level. The Babylonians also clearly believed in a historical flood (Gilgamesh is the account closest to the Bible, but there are many Babylonian versions of a flood story), and, because they lived on an alluvium, flooding was a perennial problem for them. (Not from rain, though.) In geological time, the head of the Persian Gulf has fluctuated dramatically, and, as recently as the end of the last ice age, all of Babylonia was underwater as the Tigris and Euphrates formed a single massive river there. To me it's not surprising that flood stories would emerge in this geological environment.

[@lilith4924]

@@randyjordan5521 Or ever; it's not in the geological or paleontological or genetic records either. The Sumerian King List claims individuals lived for tens of thousands of years before the flood; I'm certainly not arguing we should take everything the ancients said seriously.

[@Pay-It_Forward]

9:04 there is much older Epic of Gilgamesh tablets than that.

[@jeffturner8927]

So “righteous” Noah plants a vineyard, waited very patiently for the vines to mature and bear fruit, made some wine and got drunk. Seems like he should have been left out of the ark if God was consistent.

[@kera9389]

A what is the November 15th policy?

[@mormonstories]

New Policy on Gay Couples and Their Children Roils Mormon Church www.nytimes.com/2015/11/14/us/mormons-set-to-quit-church-over-policy-on-gay-couples-and-their-children.amp.html

[@bookermoron2409]

Joseph's followers couldn't have proven Joseph wrong when he said in 1838 that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri? Actually, all they had to do was quote Chapter 3 of the Book of Moses which Joseph claimed to write by revelation in 1831and which says the Garden was located near the Euphrates River in the vicinity of Assyria and Ethiopia.

[@sjallen1207]

Being an atheist is so much easier. We evaluate the evidence and draw a conclusion if possible, otherwise simply we don't know and if ever contradictory evidence comes along we change our minds. We don't have to continually refer to some ancient text to check what to believe.

[@CritThinkng]

I agree. I daily appreciate the ability to change my mind and honestly analyze things that are said to me. The only thing (that comes to mind, there may be more) that I have found that is PROFOUNDLY more difficult as an atheist is loss/death. So many days I wish I could just magically believe my loved ones (my brother, specifically) don't actually die, or that I won't actually die. That one is difficult.

[@Mon-Alisa]

53:38 It’s stuff like this - that God apparently expects us to believe despite all the evidence that he “placed” in the world that would contradict the literal interpretation of these stories, then doesn’t that turn God into some sort of trickster God like Loki?

[@pcoleman2562]

Also a few things, the epic of Gilgamesh predates Babylonian times and is originally a Sumerian myth, and before that a collection of Sumerian poems. Another similarity between the epic and Genesis is also that Utnapishtim is granted immortality and Noah lives 950 years. Secondly, you keep saying that only Mormonism is uniquely tied to Biblical literalism because of what Joseph Smith revealed, which I understand you want to do so as to not attack other religions. And yes many mainstream Christian churches and members take these stories figuratively. But at least mention in passing that some fundamentalist churches are also inextricably tied to literalism. I mean there's literally an ark in Kentucky. I doubt any of the folks who attend those churches can take these myths figuratively. I get that it's not your focus, but at least acknowledge that they exist and share the same problems. It seems disingenuous to say every other religion in the world besides Mormonism isn't bound by Biblical literalism. Thank you. Keep up the good work

[@lilith4924]

This is a good point. Mormons have given themselves several loopholes out of biblical literalness (and reflexively privilege other sources over the Bible, in general, including Restoration scripture and current leaders' statements). The problem for Mormons then becomes the chain reaction that's initiated when you let go of certain ideas from the Bible, as Mike has illustrated. But for many Protestants, biblical inerrancy is a central pillar of their faith, and they operate explicitly on a principle of "sola scriptura." So letting go of the flood would undermine their faith, to which the Bible is central and not peripheral, at least as much as it undermines Mormonism.

[@davidfitnesstech]

ANOTHER NICE JOB GUYS. This "global flood" garbage has always annoyed me. (I was raised as a Bible reading Christian) At most, it was just ANOTHER totally INEPT idea by the god character to solve a problem he originally created.

[@bonojennett]

1:18:40 this apologetic explanation from FAIR is a perfect example of why I began to realize that they didn't have good explanations and lost my trust.

[@rjburk5570]

If you study geology, there is evidence of floods, ocean life here in the middle of the desert in Utah and all over the world. There have been several mud floods and the like, everywhere.

[@huffpappy]

There are ocean fossils near the summit of Mt. Everest because the land where the Himalayas are was once ocean floor. That land was pushed upwards when India smacked into Asia.

[@rjburk5570]

@@randyjordan5521 then why are there human footprints inside and next to giant sloths and other dinosaurs?

[@davidbritt4003]

Ancient memories turned into myth into.....

[@daniellima2973]

How would the animals survive at a height higher than Everest? They would freeze and suffocate.

[@OuttaMyMind911]

I don't believe in a biblical global flood, but if we did allow for a mind experiment here, the rising water level would also push the atmosphere up with it. Even though a person would be above the previous elevation of everest, it would also be the new "sea level". It's only cold at high altitudes in an atmosphere because the density and pressure decrease, loosing the thermal blanket of thick air. Now, I haven't run any numbers, but there could be a slight decrease in pressure since the surface area has increased, which the same amount of atmosphere must now cover. A quick guess would be that it shouldn't be significant enough to be harmful.

[@lilith4924]

@@OuttaMyMind911 Interesting.

[@jake4all]

I wonder if Mike has looked into the work of Randall Carlson?

[@lesahardman9914]

I enjoy the tangents...

[@RebeccaRaven]

So sad that in gathering together the story of a people, it has to become articles of faith that must be accepted.

[@kimgoeckeritz6320]

It is apparent to me that you both feel the need to apologize for presenting the facts and truth, and for refuting the arguments of the apologists…I think that speaks volumes to the mind/thought/information control that the church has had on us all our lives.

[@lilith4924]

My mother claims that when she was at BYU in the '60s, she was taught that when the Bible says the floodwaters that covered the earth were however many cubits deep, that means the flood had the same depth everywhere on the planet, so it must have conformed to the shape of the planet. 😆😆😆😆😆 Like, there was a Mount Everest-shaped cone of water over Mount Everest, etc. (I suspect this solves the problem with where all the water went, but it raises some other questions for me.) Has anyone else ever heard of this? She was taught that if you don't have the faith to believe this, you don't have the faith to be saved. Even to my very orthodox mother, this was ridiculous. (I should be clear that this came from the religion=indoctrination department, not from the geology department.)

[@lilith4924]

@@randyjordan5521 Ha ha! 😅

[@earldavis2413]

There was no flood?

[@davidbritt4003]

Something did happen in our ancient history. Meteor strike?

[@lilith4924]

Yes--66 million years ago. It was the most recent mass-extinction event (before the present one).

[@maksettava]

I am listening to these Bible studies and I am thinking of my mother. She is not Mormon, she is a fundamentalist creationist evangelis-lutheran. And she would just say to everything here: the science is wrong, God is right. And that would be that.

[@scottbrandon6244]

The concept of water plays many roles in the Bible. The obvious one is the New Testament accounts of baptism. The Old Testament has others. The flood is symbolic of God's need to cleanse the earth. However sin still prevails after the flood. In 1 Kings 17-19 we learn of water in the story of drought and the use of 45 liters on the fire pit by Elijah in 1 Kings 18. There is also the parting of the sea and deliverance of the Israelites.

[@egriffiths8993]

I can’t get over that even when you have 4 men and women left on earth according to the story. You STILL can only recorded Noah’s name and his 3sons. Women are literally going be doing all the baby work for decades and not a mention.

[@jennasorscia9044]

But wait, there's more!

[@tobyleonard5410]

It almost sounds like the Israelites did what joseph Smith did with the king James Bible with the story of gilgamesh and Babylonian myths

[@briansmith7780]

Garden of eden in Missouri? Obviously... The show me state

[@barbarakessler4787]

Have you enlightened yourself via the organization Answers in Genesis?

[@rubenvela3286]

Mike you're still a member?? Oh no! Oh no! Oh no, no, no, no, no, no! You're going to get exed. You've done good work though

[@mrgrnjns1111]

The Sumerians had a record of the flood in their tablets.

[@lizzieb19450]

And it’s impossible Noah built a ship and went all over the world and got all the creeper crawlers down to the Amazon got the penguins in Antarctica the polar bears in the Arctic, turkeys in the americas, elephants in Africa and zebra rhinos, not to mention all the little bugs from everywhere all over the earth. The ship he would half to build we couldn’t even build today and collect every species. I am just mentioning a few places think of going to every single bug in the whole world in all the different places. It’s ridiculous…completely ridiculous.

[@tamarahfiechter-watson7764]

What is discussed is very simplistic without using scriptures about the 2 floods. The Lord used flood to start over because of fallen angels mingling with women making creatures (nephalim) that were unclean and abomination to God. God's way is not man's way.

[@tamarahfiechter-watson7764]

All animals did not have to exist to put on Ark. You have to consider evolution. Archeologist have found and proven there was a major flood. If God can make Lions not eat Daniel, he can make animals on Ark not kill each other. Tectonic plates on world were once one land mass that divided. Animals didn't have to go to separate places in the world.

[@bonojennett]

1:06:15 this is the classic gaslighting of FAIR at its finest. If it's ok, you should be able to teach the scientific findings in church. We all know it wouldn't last long.

[@dannylemmon7123]

17:55 gonna go out on a limb and say, if God just killed off a bunch of animals, and you only have 2 of each left, maybe lay off the sacrifices for just a bit.

[@andrewfredrickson8678]

What if my sins built an ark and survived my baptism!? 😮

[@Misdamas]

If you look at Jewish history of the Old Testament anything before Abraham were almost poetic stories to teach about creation and not fact!

[@thepowerof6six809]

If the church wasn't true satan wouldn't try to keep people from going back to it. Spirit children would not go watch their parents sealing.

[@thepowerof6six809]

At one all the continents were connected that is a fact. I learned from an animal nature show.

[@susanhaney3437]

Yes, but that was 200-300 million years ago, long before humans of any kind existed. The "events" in the Bible happened much more recently.

[@kerryholyoak5720]

All fish too ? Whales ?

[@quacks2much]

I don’t like the “don’t throw out the baby (a god) with the bathwater (Mormonism)” analogy. The problem with the analogy is that there is arguably no baby either because there is likely no god.

[@beboystyle620]

Is there a God?

[@juliewest595]

Watch near death experiences

[@peter_higgs]

Is there a god?.....which one?...from which mythical belief system?...does the evidence show that such an entity exists?.......in 2022, you'd think that the human race would've risen above the fantastical, and embraced the reality of the world around them.

[@beboystyle620]

@@juliewest595 are you active LDS?

[@beboystyle620]

@@juliewest595 is Jesus real?

[@gd8205]

God. The ultimate mass killer.

[@thomasmoore3204]

Okay, I'm going to have to put on my TBM thinking cap... because the Mormon theology/histrionics is totally not what he's explaining... 1) Mormons believed in Pangea which is scientifically proven (way different time line, true but there it is) all the people lived on the same continent. 2) There was no rain before Noah. All of the land was watered by a mist and the firmaments between land and clouds/air hadn't touched yet. So the Ark didn't have to "sail" or move just rise and lower with the water flood levels (it wasn't until the days of Peleg that the Earth was split and when the mighty mountains were formed. The explanations at time 45 talks about it when the American continents were divided. In fact the petrified forest and shells in the mountains, proves there was a flood, right???

[@OuttaMyMind911]

I’m not sure where you got your TBM thinking cap, but I don’t remember any church lessons covering Pangea in relation to Genesis. Maybe you had more interesting wards. The main problem here is time. The flood of the Bible is supposed to have occurred only about 4000 years ago. Pangea existed on the order of tens to a hundred million years ago. With the no rain before Noah, I get the reference in genesis, but again, I don’t remember this ever being much of a thing in a church setting. Besides, god told Noah that he was bringing rain for seven days and somehow that wasn’t a strange concept, so it might be safe to say rain was a known thing. And lastly, petrified forests and fossilized shells in mountains can’t correlate to a global flood. They show evidence of plate tectonics and continental drift. Again, timing is an issue here. Fossilization takes longer to complete than the time we have from a supposed flood only a few thousand years ago. There simply isn’t any evidence a TBM can show to support a global flood. Some religious people still try pretty hard. Check out the “Ark Encounter” in Kentucky. They have exhibits showing dinosaurs staying on the ark and plenty of ridiculous explanations that simply have no basis in reality.

[@thomasmoore3204]

@@OuttaMyMind911 You weren't taught "In the days of Peleg the earth was split, etc... ? Actually the whole adam/eve and noah stories are proof of Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell's theories of "Collective Memories" i.e. Gaia, Gaius, Osiris/Isis parents to Horus, etc... Power of Myth. These are just stories that we seem to remember. No the flood story (dragons, etc...) is just humans trying to explain things they were finding fossils, shells in mountains, dinosaurs, petrified stones/trees. So I agree with Mike and everyone else about it being a fable, myth, etc... I just thought he was leading followers down the wrong path as far as saying, "It;s impossible for Adam-ondi-ahman" to be in Missouri; I was just giving the TBM response on why it could be explained by the Mormon scriptures.

[@susanhaney3437]

I would just add that during the time of Pangea, there were no humans alive at all. No fossils of any humans have been found in rocks of that age.

[@kateq7212]

The presence of shells and sea creatures in deposits miles from the sea is due to the movement of the earth plates over millenia, with collisions pushing up land into mountain ranges. Therefore, deposits that were originally on a sea bed appear in elevated geological formations. This is a simplified explanation. You can see this movement in the striations where they are at all sorts of angles.

[@rogandbingofbingalahtravel3680]

You know, I spent six years studying theology including subjects supporting such issues as creationism and the global flood. You two know nothing about Hebrew, the meaning of words in Hebrew, the manner in which Hebrew was spoken or the customs of the day and how they fit into contemporary literature. I would suggest you read, at the very least, three books. These books are as follows. "Evidence That Demands a Verdict", "New Evidence That Demands a Verdict", both by Josh McDowel and "The Twilight of Evolution" by Henry M. Morris. There are many scientists who argue on both sides of these issues you are presenting but you are only giving one side of the argument. Shame on you! You claim to have no agenda but you only provide one side of the argument. Generally speaking, I appreciate your podcast but this is not the full picture, by any means.

[@glory5110]

So you want them to base their discussions on the books of biased, debunked evangelist and the father of repeatedly debunked "creationism" all books written 1963, 1972, 1981.. Yeah, not like anything new has happened in the science world for the past 40 years. Give me a break.

[@rogandbingofbingalahtravel3680]

@@glory5110 nice ad hominem but does not work in an intelligent debate.

[@rogandbingofbingalahtravel3680]

@@3DFLYLOW I am saying that the arguments here are based on a lack of understanding. The scriptures were not written in King James English, for one. There are supporting evidences showing a universal flood, as well. I am not saying that there was or was not a universal flood. I am saying that this dogmatism is already biased based largely on ignorance of all sides of the discussion.

[@waterfall_brook]

If there are evidences for a global flood, please present them... because none of the *quote* evidence *unquote* that I've ever seen holds up under any kind of scrutiny. As to Glory's point, the work of Josh McDowell and Henry Morris have been debunked and cleared of any substantial claims against the science and scholarship in existence today. I'm not seeing anything ad hominem about that argument. And I think you're the one missing the point of the King James English usage in this series. The King James bible is the one that Joseph Smith based everything in Mormonism off of. That's why they keep going back to it; the King James formed the ideology that Joseph Smith transformed into the Book of Mormon. We know the original scriptures were written in Hebrew, and that the earliest as-yet-discovered biblical texts are in ancient Hebrew. That doesn't change the fact that the original Hebrew texts essentially retell the flood portion of the Epic of Gilgamesh, translating it into a monotheistic setting.

[@rogandbingofbingalahtravel3680]

@@waterfall_brook calling Josh McDowell names rather than appealing to facts is ad hominem. I provided references for evidences, feel free to read some of them. I could spend all kinds of time going through evidences for the flood or against the flood. I gave you references. Go for it and read them if you want evidences of the flood. Regarding Hebrew, I already stated my point. Your argument doesn't negate my point. Read some Hebrew some time and learn about the variances of language. It does make a difference.

[@carle9924]

I don't understand why it's so important to try to make Christianity seem like it's legit. ? Trying to excuse the fact that you can still believe in God even though you don't have to believe in the Flood.. I totally agree that that mormonism is not true. But where is the proof of God that you you so desperately are trying to find?. It really is irritating to watch Mormon stories countless times seeing people trying to prove the God claim.

[@rjburk5570]

Seems like you are going way out of your way to debunk everything in scripture. Science is not solid.

[@hbendzulla8213]

Science is pretty solid, scripture is believing in what is written.

[@ericreed4535]

You are oversimplifying. The "non-literal" path is the only way to believe the old books while having even a little intellectual honesty. Scapegoating? No society allows or accepts this. Let the literal nonsense go. If not, you are nearing flat earther level of intentional ignorance.

[@hbendzulla8213]

@@jcrook5904 people who live totally by religion, very seldom believe in science. Same the other way around.

[@Applest2oApples]

I mean it’s pretty solid though…

[@hbendzulla8213]

@LDS Discussions Science and evolution, is pretty much set in stone. Science in the medical field, pollution etc. changes and it improves. Scriptures are interpreted different by different scholars. That’s a fact.

[@slbfiel8203]

Lol this is a joke... I respect all religions, this isn't one

[@debbiebuttars5598]

Mike is so knowledgeable. I appreciate these podcasts for the clear presentations of Mormon teachings and “revelation” that are completely bogus. I don’t have enough understanding of the Bible or religious myths to connect the dots on my own. But Mike does! The discussion and expansion are perfect and so necessary. Thanks for what you both do. ❤️