Character Mastery vs System Mastery | Exploring Fighting Games 11

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[@novriltataki]

Reminding before you comment that we're talking in relative terms, not absolute terms. Not "all about system mastery" but "more about system mastery compared to..."

[@mrdoolio]

If we are talking about it as a spectrum, I'd say even the games you listed as "character mastery" seem like "leaning to system mastery" to me, due to fundamentals being, well, fundamentally the same across the board. Even though jacko might be completely different than ino, they do share the same system mechanics. And even though GG might be more liberal when it comes to character differences, those fundamentals aren't exactly few and apart and they do define the whole game (ie, you will feel at home if you switch in GG. I'd even argue that what you said about Tekken goes perhaps even more for GG - mastering fundamentals through one character makes it easier to hop onto another character). There are lots of system-wide mechanics in GG, available to every cast member, perhaps even more than in something like kof. For example, combo system is almost universally applicable, something that's not present in, say, street fighter. I can see Street Fighter being something in the middle of the road, but I can't help but see all those titles you mentioned as system mastery oriented, with character mastery coming always at the second place, but with various titles it comes almost as important as system mastery or way less important, depending on the game. As for Street Fighter specifically, my view would be the boring one: depends on a character. Because I think it really does. Perhaps we can say that el fuerte is more "individual" than, say sakura, but that's about it. It's just a different archetype. The notion of "this isn't street fighter" is nonsensical to me. el fuerte, laura or whoever, are as "street fighterish" as any other character, because they all have to fit within the "system". The fact that there are more sakuras than el fuertes is just a statistical information. "it's not street fighter" is just an individual phrase, born out of frustration. Why would dhalsim be street fighter, but el fuerte wouldn't? Because dhalsim is an archetype born in sf2? I don't see that as a valid reason. They both fit in their respective way, as they both have to respect the fundamental system in place. are alpha counter, v system and focus attack street fighter? I mean, it's just a slippery slope. For something to not be street fighter, I think it would have to be something more tangible. For example, I can say that one thing consistent for the franchise is combos being predominantly link-based. So, if sf6 had a dominant GG-ish combo system, I could be surprised and murmur the infamous phrase "it's not street fighter". But for something less than that... I don't see it.

[@bloodsoldierZ]

What's the name of the vid's background music?

[@spaghetti_za]

I personally feel Tekken is more system based than SoulCalibur. In Tekken, characters seem to be designed with a similar toolset (10f jab, 13f mid poke, 15f launch etc) with variations on the theme. Once you understand the system, it's not hard to pick up multiple characters. In SC, because it's weapon-based, you see a lot more variety in move speed, range, and general strategy. Making matchups more diverse. For that reason, I think SC is more character-based.

[@MoldMonkey93]

I agree more so with Virtua Fighter in that regard since those similar frame attacks look more similar to one another in VF except a couple execptions. Everyone has a Jab, elbow, 2P/Low jab. All low jabs are 12 frames and elbows 14. In tekken, some characters have a spammable DF1 and can only be stopped in terms of taking advantage with a jab back and you end up being predictable. If you could DF1 back that be great but -3 and esp -1 isn't enough. Evading is possible but it isn't clear or is predjudice to some characters. VF has a fair system compared to Tekken. You can visually confirm slow lows and block them more better in VF because of the automatic fluid movement which isn't as glued to the floor as Tekken thus forcing you to learn KBD. G button helpa too. Tekken feels more like an anime game now than a 3D one. Tek4/5 was more like VF, was more neutral based too.

[@mamertvonn]

in low level tekken: lol eddy lol hwoarang lol xiayou lol mix up characters

[@ShadowBlade79]

I say Soulcalibur is very system-based. The weapon-based combat revolves around a system of horizontal, vertical, high and low strikes, designed to push the concept of movement and position in the series. Horizontal moves are typically quicker and easier to duck or hop over, whereas vertical moves are slower and easier to react to with a sidestep. Combine that with the Guard Impact system, and you can pick up the game with practically any character and hold your own as long as you have a good understanding of how that system works. Yes, some characters play very differently from others, but they still adhere to that system.

[@BeeLy1011]

Same for DOA, all characters have pokes, launchers, fast throw punishes, etc, plus of course holds. Another layer is added due to interactive stages, which any character can take advantage of (though admittedly, some are a bit better at it than others)

[@Bager_RBN]

As for the SF-discussion at the end: different Street Fighter games score vastly different on the character mastery vs system mastery scale. SF2 was largely based around character mastery and match-up knowledge, SFV is largely about playing the system correctly, with the rest of the games in the series somewhere in between those two extremes.

[@blackhairedgoon8218]

Eirik Bager Sundmark "System mastery" for SFV being 50/50 shimmies lmao, there isn't much to naster

[@Bager_RBN]

Whether it's actually difficult to play the system is completely besides the point. Most characters in SFV have been designed to play in a fairly similar and specific fashion, so it's clearly not a character mastery game.

[@blackhairedgoon8218]

Eirik Bager Sundmark Not true at all, one of the major complaints about SFV is everyone plays the same - almost all of the characters are based around offense, and offense in SFV is very shallow, based around 50/50 shimmies. The only real exception is Guile but even he is catered more toward rushdown.

[@Jako3334074]

You do realize you're both saying the same thing right? "play in a fairly similar and specific fashion" "everyone plays the same"

[@Bager_RBN]

BlackHairedGoo: Yeah, that's what I just said.

[@James-pb8xu]

Character Mastery: +much easier to find your playstyle within the game. +Match-Ups are more likely to have depth and nuance. +Allows room for more interesting archetypes like puppet, limited ammo, time-based, and my favorite, the everything-except-health characters. -less likely to be balanced. -puts more focus on the character ("oh there's a falco in the bracket let's get it!" "Another palutena zzzz") System Mastery: +More likely to be balanced. +More focus is on the player (everyone has the same tools, so the onus is on the player to show themselves). -less likely to find your playstyle/ onus is on you to create your playstyle (try zoning in FighterZ. Not really possible). -less likely to have interesting Match-Ups.

[@Marthroy9000]

This video does a great job of keeping the nuances of fighting games concise and understandable. Very impressive work here.

[@zatoby6705]

Now I don't feel as bad about getting destroyed by different characters in Blazblue.

[@chipslight738]

"When's DBFZ ?" is Jin's name. I agree.

[@kotl7]

Interesting video, I was hoping you'd talk about Killer Instinct, imo it blends System mastery with breakers and their unique combo system, and Character mastery is well represented too when you see Aganos, Jago and Mira next to each other for example. What's your take on KI, I guess that's my question?

[@caiooa]

I liked this video a lot, but for the sake of argument/taking the devil's advocate role, allow me to nitpick on 2 things. Asw games generally do have very unique characters, but they are allowed to do it this way because of the solid skeleton of universal defensive and offensive mechanics their games have. The system gives the developers a set of control variables that allows them to balance something like that. Mastering the universal mechanics there is still extremely important from the player perspective. In street fighter side, by the time of sf2 there were few if any fail safes of this type. So the balancing of outside the box characters as bison, vega (6 command jumps with different followups) and dhalsim (6 divekicks with different angles and speeds, some + on block) was a major headache. But since then alpha series, sf3, sf4 and sf5 added layers upon layers of failsafe mechanics. The "not a street fighter character" type (with extra air mobility) side only increased in proportion to the cast. Akuma, cammy, rolento, guy, gen, yung, yang, oro, ibuki, 12, rufus, oni, e. ryu, c. viper, el fuerte, rashid and menat all falls into this category...

[@JaimeAGB-pt4xl]

Now that GGS is out.... this video (which is great) came back to me, and I have to say... they turned GG from a Character Mastery... to a system mastery game, which is why the characters feel nuttered by comparisson to previous titles... Ps: Crappy fighter 5 has always been a system game

[@albritz]

Doa is a massive system mastery game, especially on the defence side, all defence mechanics are absolutely identical (same inputs) for characters who have access to them, including punishing on block (done with fast throws), holding, advanced holding and parrying.

[@jettmanas]

Interesting concept, and good exploration. I've never played MB, though I have played KOF (except 14). I try to learn the system of a new game first (sometimes there are changes in new versions). Then focus on a character/characters. Interesting point on matchup knowledge. Every time I'm about to face a character I try to remember any matchup info I've remembered. Then if I lose, I look it up & hope I don't forget (in some cases more than once).

[@happycamperds9917]

It depends on the character IMO. A character like Ky tends to be system mastery (in Xrd he relies a lot on universal mechanics like YRCs) while a character like Zato is probably more character based.

[@TeamSima]

Very good video, I've had similar talks with some of my friends about where I rank games on these two factors, though I put it on a 2d plane instead of a dichotomy. It'll be nice to have more people thinking about fighting games in this way, though, especially since it's a way I find to be very interesting.

[@IYIosefu]

This is an argument that i've been thinking about for a long time, and i'm glad that it has been covered here. The sense of frustation of matchup-based fighting games is why they will never be my favourite. Take KoF for example: even if you happen to play against character like Iori or Mr.Karate, which are generally considered extremely strong characters that tend to be overpower, if you are good at the mechanics, you can still totally deal with them using any other valid character and not feel like you just can't help but fail. In my opinion, system based fighting games tend to show more the value of a player since your skill at the system matters much more than the characters you pick, while on the opposite type of games, it happens that: "Hey this player is really good, but he uses X character, so to win against Y character, he will have a really hard time" Statistics matter almost as much as the player's skill.

[@hiroprotagonest]

If any character just has a really bad matchup against another character, that's more of an issue with game balance than with matchup mastery. Of course, it might be impossible to give a character the tools for a certain matchup without making them broken strong (or vice-versa for the other side of the matchup), but what it should be is more like "you can't use this move but he doesn't have an answer to this other move so you want to avoid this spacing and try to be here instead." I still would rather just learn a System Mastery (also it's more spectrum than binary but w/e) tag-team fighting game where learning my character takes a lot of time because I'm actually learning a team, than a game where I'm forced to only play a single character because I have to learn every single matchup _but it only applies for the character I'm playing,_ but good character mastery games are "welp I don't know this matchup I'm screwed" and not "welp this matchup is terrible for my character and I can't play anyone else."

[@Anken93]

Then, DragonBallFighterZ should definitely be a System Mastery! Even in the universe of the manga, it is a System Mastery! xD Thanks for this serie, it enlighten us a lot!

[@caiooa]

i feel like the majority of team fighting games (as marvel, kof and dbzf) takes into account that a new player will have to learn more chars and matchups, so they don't overemphasis on character mastery and goes for system mastery instead by design.

[@novriltataki]

The developers confirmed this for themselves www.evernote.com/shard/s742/sh/3c44dada-c9a3-480d-a294-607f151b5ce6/39eefefb5f775ab589310cb18428a2fc

[@homurayurisquad1423]

I usually try to learn more than 1 character in every game I like. I'm not sure if i would call arcana heart more system mastery. I cant do a lot of efc combos with some characters because of weird routes, and instincts. also characters like Catherine, Scharl, Nazuna, seem to play different from the rest of the cast, or require match up knowledge to fight. Though I agree that fighting heart, Weiss, etc might not require as much special matchup knowledge. I agree that if you learn homing, you can easily spam beginners. It probably is compared to something like blazblue, where everyone has a weird drive mechanic. I'm not sure about guilty gear though, but I haven't played that game nearly as much 3d games are definitely system mastery based, since you can just pick up any character and win some matches. if you learn one.

[@TeamSima]

Homura Yuri Squad I would definitely say arcana heart leans toward system mastery, though it does have a lot of character- and arcana-specific things to learn. The main thing that separates someone who is really good from a newer player isn't generally the combos and setups they're doing, but how they use the unique mechanics of the game like homing and clashing to win. A decent way to think about it and see, somewhat, where a game falls is to ask yourself, "at high level, how many characters can a player confidently play?". In Guilty Gear, you generally will only see a player have one character that they can play in tournament, as there is too much in getting a second character to that same level, in a game like arcana heart, I've seen a JP player at animevo play random select and do very well, same with KOF where I've seen Xiaohai play FT10s with random select.

[@mourossonero]

You guys are amazing, can't thank you enough for the content you make :)

[@novriltataki]

(Shill alert) If we'll get more support on Patreon, we'll be able to create more videos per month. ;)

[@labelasenoreth7813]

Perhaps one way of quantifying how much a game is based on character master, and how much it's based on system mastery, would be to look at the variance in a player's skill (measured by Elo ranking perhaps) across multiple characters. For instance, if a game is on the system mastery side, then a player would have comparable Elo scores playing a different character, or playing against the different characters. If a game is on the character master side, a player switching characters wouldn't have much advantage over a new player (with some prior FG experience) picking up that character. Unfortunately, not all games have Elo-style online rankings, and developers probably don't make the data available, but in theory this number would be calculable and would be a hard metric of what you're talking about.

[@Qcf2]

Ive been playing tekken for 18 years now ever since tekken 2 came out. from my own experiences and understanding of the game, tekken is a System based and at the same time a character based game both are needed to be mastered. Yeah I know most of the cast have their generic pokes and hopkicks, but after thoss moves every character has different types of moveset with different sets of properties that make every character unique and different to play with, you may master 1 character but moving to a different character will be a very different experience and a different learning curve. saying that you only need to master the system to be competent at tekken is actually not right. you ma y master the system like its movement, juggles and some of its rules but if you dont know the characters move properties like if its homing, its range, where it tracks, its speed, you will be in a lot of hurt. but I really like this Video, jsut wnated to share what I know about tekken and my own research and understanding

[@austinreed7343]

Older Western games can be even muddier than SF or 3D games.

[@SaltiestSalem]

In Street Fighter, if I can beat someone with my main, I can beat them with most of the cast. Same holds true f or people who can beat me, generally. I think Street Fighter games vary greatly on this front, but Street Fighter V specifically with it's simpler, easier to learn combos lends itself to be almost purely reliant on general street fighter v skills, while character mastery takes the secondary role, but certainly matters more than the games you listed as system-mastery-dependant

[@playedproperly8922]

You don't have to learn each individual character moves for defense 3D fighters, high-mid, low blocks and throws work just fine.

[@SquallTheBlade]

Nice. The video made me realize why even to this day Melty Blood feels like the only game I can easily just pick up and play while BB, GG and SF feel bit harder.

[@andymrb]

in Blazblue or Guilty Gear is execution one of the difficulties you encounter while you're exploring new characters? In Tekken I feel like there are often character potentials for me to unlock, behind difficult execution. For example if I main Nina for years and become good at doing multiple iWS+1 in combos, that skill doesn't carry over when I learn Law. Then I'll have to learn DSS cancels if I want to utilize Law's potential.

[@mollywantshugs5944]

To some extent, but most of the difficulties of changing characters comes from each character having different tactics, win conditions, and breaking the rules in different ways. Chipp and Potemkin control similarly enough, but the way they interact with the opponent are polar opposite. Chipp mostly wants to use his high mobility to harass the opponent and take advantage of openings when he sees them. Potemkin has to play slow and patient, looking for his big break to get in and break the opponent's face, but he has to risk eating shit every time he tries to approach. They require similar technical skill, but wildly different mindsets

[@studioweilandbustreal9859]

is that some games that can provide some uniques mechanics to characters and an universal design to master ? if it is i wish to know what are they pls notice it for le

[@mollywantshugs5944]

Studio Weil and bust real Guilty Gear works that way. In GG each character has a bunch of unique moves, mechanics, and properties but there’s also a lot of universal mechanics that are there primarily to ensure every character has answers to everyone else’s crazy mechanics so they don’t have to worry quite as much about a weird or crazy character concept breaking the game.

[@velka5344]

I have notifications enabled for this channel but I didn't get one for this video

[@sharkspeedo]

Street fighter V is definitely a system mastery game, since once you get used to one character is easy to play with the others, not like guilty gear that you learn one character and that knowlefge means nothing if you switch to other

[@CoosCoos]

What is the background music to this episode?

[@novriltataki]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3q5q2iXoMqJpdk

[@MarkizenBlast]

Nice touch with Saga Frontier 2 music in the background. :) Do you Chemical Lovers fancy any particular rpg's?

[@novriltataki]

I've played a shit ton of them back in the day.

[@MarkizenBlast]

Hah, good answer! :D

[@RegularChimp]

This videos are amazing dudes

[@kalega311]

Killer Instinct is the epitome of a system mastery game. It's kind of neat.

[@TheLeo1396]

Even if you say that GG more "character mastery" type of game (with which i agree) it still has a lot of universal mechanics to learn and explore in different situations. There is huge variety of defensive options, various (roman) cancels and movement options. So, i think that there is much more to learn compared to games like Street Fighter (which i already found complicated enough) and, as for me, the learning curve is too hard there.

[@penkunator]

I definitely agree. Especially with the revamped system in Xrd, the universal mechanics (Burst, YRC, RRC, Blitz, IB, FD, DA, 1F throw/airthrow, invuln backdashes) are so strong that if you don't know how to use them, forget mastering character matchups; even basic okizeme and neutral situations will be hard to handle. Even though some of the matchups are tipped really heavily towards one character, the player who really knows his system mechanics can turn things around in a single moment, eg. using Blitz as an antiair or reversal, or punishing a move with air IB into throw. Even among ASW games, I think BB is a better example of a character mastery game because its universal systems are weaker than in GG's. While the majority of old GG mechanics are there, the lack of Blitz (parry that repels the opponent on correct high/mid or low physical attack, and/or absorbs a projectile while giving some invuln frames to move) and throws being 7F makes the character so much more dependent on their own tools, not to mention Overdrive being a mechanic that boosts the character's own special abilities which for some are really good and for others not so good.

[@novriltataki]

The universal system mechanics are mostly defensive in nature, and are there as a safety mechanism to prevent the individual character offense from ending up being too crazy.

[@jimyqqq]

I think Guilty Gear is both based

[@LBorigin]

Romancing SaGa in the background? 😎🍻

[@novriltataki]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/i3q5q2iXoMqJpdk

[@LBorigin]

@@novriltataki glorious

[@PinupSticknerd]

Doa=more system Vf|soulcal=more character

[@dimex3362]

Me personally, I’m thinking it’s more graded along a bell curve style of addressing certain styles of play. All games have both inherent in their designs, but some games revolve more around system or character knowledge. Here’s an example that I’ve loved to use for the longest time. Who is better, the character specialist that can routinely get top 32 with their character in big tournaments, but generally can’t beat the top 8 players much at all, or the tournament winner that can play the specialists character and beat top 8 players, without specialising in said character? An example from the real world would be something like automattock zeku... great knowledge and tech but not a person you would expect to win a major, versus momochi zeku or big bird zeku. Neither player has automattocks level of tech, but both players are probably better with zeku than he is.... or are they? This is the same question that comes up in “system versus character mastery” auto might have a better character mastery, but those other guys have better system mastery. Better reads, better focused reactions, better spacing etc etc etc and they also know how to exploit the basics of the system better. Streetfighter 5 for me is a combination of both, but I feel like system mastery is the higher defined trait, at least early in the games life. Once the games been out for 5 yeas or so and everyone has crazy system mastery via years playing the game, character mastery may well take on a whole nother level of importance. But there’s always an argument either way and depending on what you as a player personally take to more naturally, will probably end up influencing your decision as to whether you consider any particular game as revolves more around systems, or more around characters.

[@deinemutter8001]

What is mortal kombat x ? Character Mastery?

[@Minastir1]

System mastery, the most important thing in MKX is utilizing your meters correctly and most of the cast play largely the same game with similar tools with some exceptions like GM Sub Zero.

[@kirillfedtsov]

SF5 is a mixture of both, and they totally did something wrong there. MenaRD just randomly armored his way through top-skill Japanese players. Like if you play very gimmicky character then almost every mach-up is the same for you. While if you play a stereotypical character like Ryu or Cammy or else - every match becomes very tough on match-up knowledge.

[@MDSpriggs]

How would you classify 3 V 3 team games? I'm looking into playing a lot of Dragon Ball fighterz but thinking how it's going to be played and what's going to be important. It seems like it has the character mastery in it's roster with it being a arcsys designed game. But at the same time it has Marvel 2 similarities. So it seems like a gray area is present here.

[@hoodedstreetmonk352]

I'd argue DBFZ is shaping up to be all about system mastery, I'd wager, especially because most characters share a ton of tools between each other.

[@hiroprotagonest]

All team games that exist place system mastery as more important than character mastery, just to different degrees. DBFZ in particular seems to be banking on team dynamics bringing depth.

[@วิชชากรสุขวัฒน์]

SFV is Character Mastery just remember what Tokido had done in EVO from loser to Winner (Akuma)

[@RosariaBestGirl]

Mhh, you kinda just glossed over the 3D fighters ,and you did classify tekken as more system mastery even though you did acknowledge just how important character match-ups are in that game,(and you did say "murky" before tackling this section). But I still don't think that is a valid statement or that it makes a lot of sense. It doesn't even helps make your video easier to understand, I just thought it was worth pointing out for future reference, so you can hopefully improve your videos.

[@PretzTrigger]

Street Fighter Alpha actually broke that rule as you had Air Blocks and Air throws present and Alpha 3 went the route of ISMs that allowed you to tweet the system you were using. But over all great video keep them coming Subbed

[@hiroprotagonest]

It had _air-to-air_ blocks. Staying on the ground gave just as much advantage against jump-ins as in any other Street Fighter, unless you used hadoukens to anti-air for some reason.

[@omegasmesh]

i feel dragonball fighterz is going to be more a more system driven game, which will be pretty interesting coming from asw. also sfv is pretty clearly a character focused game compared to previous entries.

[@Blackie-Chan]

So is Pokken character mastery based because of how heavily matchup based it is?

[@JohnGaming55]

Where do you think HNK would fit on the spectrum?

[@albritz]

Character games feel more fresh at lower level of investment. If you have limited time to play, at least you can aim at something meaningful, like being a creative/original player of that strange low tier character. While in system game low investment means mediocre level of play, period, no way around it. You just hit the wall of players who master the fundamentals at a higher level.

[@hiroprotagonest]

That sounds less like getting a meaningful amount of skill in the time available, and more like just wanting to win against non-pro players and the easiest way to do that is to abuse an opponent's lack of knowledge in an area.

[@Fgarfio01]

Street fighter is system mastery

[@JaimeAGB-pt4xl]

The SF portion was very political, but I understand you guys didn't want to put SF in the SYSTEM MASTERY category to avoid some backlash, because even though C.Viper and Fuerte were exceptions (and may a few others), the rest is all system related.... still, this is still one of the VERY BEST episodes in this series yet ... keep up the good work

[@abcdefghilihgfedcba]

*Soulcalibur

[@Alexandre-rt7xk]

Never though about that! As a Street Fighter player which never got deep with Guilty Gear/ Blazblue mechanics I was amazed about how unique each character was and though this aproach was the superior one. Since I never played seriously, I didn't realize of its shortcomings, how this can be overwhelming. I'm having a taste of this righ now since I'm playing Tekken 7.

[@Alexandre-rt7xk]

I'm not saying Tekken is the same as Guilty Gear. Perhaps I'm wrong since I'm a novice Tekken player but I feel I need to study much more other characters to stand a chance in Tekken than SF. King's grapples for example, the openings in the strings, where and when to defend in a particular combo... Obviously having a good knowledge of the opponent moves are important in Street Fighter but IMO this is what separate novices from intermediate players. In Tekken I feel like this is basic stuff.