Misleading Accessibility | Exploring Fighting Games 10

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[@edr8054]

Oh my god, the Tilts and Smash attacks case is such a good example. That was one of the most frustrating things when I tried to learn it when 4 came out. There's also the fact that some characters can angle their attacks too which gives them slightly different properties that makes it more technical too. It's part of why I like traditional fighters more since there's way less overlap between moves I've had problems with. BTW nice choice of music.

[@hiroprotagonest]

Yep! Rivals of Aether actually has a separate button for Strong (Smash) Attacks! You can choose to turn the Smash style of "instant directions" on, but I've just assigned it to a button because it's so much more consistent.

[@sidd8257]

ed R Consider changing your second stick to tilt. It makes PP tilts possible, as well as making tilts in general really fluent to do. If you wanna do an instant dash attack you can do it with tiltstick, as well as being able to attack midair and not change your momentum a little (yes, this is a problem with smash stick). It also means if you want an attack with the A button, just smash it because that’s all you’ll need it for. If Smash 5 on the switch came out with an RoA type smash/tilt thing I’d probs not use it. Tilt stick is good enough TBH

[@tukoijarrett9155]

use that c stick

[@HakumeiTenshi]

I disagree with this. The attack system in Smash I feel wasn't explained accurately. The type of attack you get in smash depends not just on how far you tilt the stick, but how fast you do it on top of the state of your character. If you tilt the stick forward slowly, you get a walk, even if you hold it all the way the character will only ever walk faster, but never dash or run. Because you're not dashing or running, you can't get a dash attack, or a smash by accident, you can only get a tilt. This whole video is flawed in my opinion because at lot of the execution issues can be circumvented by learning how to slow down, and practicing your inputs cleanly. The SF4 super/ultra example is an exemption because that's a problem within the programming of SF4. Things like short hops in smash aren't so much because it works the same in KoF as mentioned, and also in most platforms like Super Mario Bros. You just have to bother to practice it.

[@ikagura]

Yes, you could tilt down or up the side smash in Melee

[@heavymetalmixer91]

People for many years thought P4U 1 and 2 was very easy in its execution, but only players knew that the game's execution matched BB in difficulty in some moments and characters.

[@neonknight5857]

With how all your attacks are tied to your movement button, how technical Smash inputs can be can get kind of rough. Even for the basics. The techy stuff gets insane. When you start trying to use directional aerials, but drift your character in a different direction to make them safe on block, you kinda start realizing....whoah this game's pretty complicated actually. And that's without even taking all the crazy tech into account.

[@theflashgordon193]

yes putting all those effort just to make attack safe is a thing I really dislike in this game

[@300PIVOTMASTER]

Gordon rass kwasi Exactly. Fighting games should give the player safe on block attacks for free. Why should the player have to time or space anything just to escape a punish? I'm here to mash buttons not think shit out ffs

[@DaDoppen]

To be fair instant dash attack is generally done with c-stick down instead of A (at least if you have C-stick set to "smash"), but other than that I can only agree, having something like "Normal, Smash, Special, Short Hop, Jump, Shield, Grab" would be so much better than "Normal, Special, Jump, Shield, Grab". And it'd still fit on a GCN controller!

[@cjbell36]

Doopliss I know some smash players like myself are able to do an instant dash attack by doing the shoryuken command and then pressing A.

[@DaDoppen]

I guess that can work too, but with c-stick down you can do it in one frame I'm quite sure. But maybe you can do that with the SRK input too due to input leniency?

[@hiroprotagonest]

Instant... instant dash attack? Do you mean instant SMASH attack? I've never had trouble doing instant smash attacks with A. Most players (that care) have it set to tilt-stick so you don't accidentally get smash attacks instead of tilts.

[@cjbell36]

HiroProtagonest No I mean an instant dash attack Edit: I only use tilt to give me full aerial control when I use an aerial.

[@hiroprotagonest]

...Okay I think I understand now. That only wouldn't work with special stick, and most control schemes use tilt stick.

[@PadChords]

Had an argument with someone about how Smash Bros.' control scheme would work just as well if they gave you more buttons instead of relying on analog stick position, but he just couldn't understand what I was getting at and kept saying the way it worked was simpler than any other fighting game. You demonstrated, precisely and concisely, why more buttons would be better, in less than three minutes. Bravo.

[@dj_koen1265]

But it would be impossible to play if you had to use 4 additional buttons for each directional attack To me at least it seems like it would be awful

[@Sammysapphira]

World of Warcraft is known for having 40 buttons for each character + additional macro bindings and yet its one of the easiest games to play at a basic level because the keyboard is so easy to load up with single press commands. People who are ignorant often believe that seeing 40 buttons means its impossibly difficult to play (compared to league where you have 4 regular use buttons), but the reality is entirely contrary until you get into the highest levels of wow gameplay. To further illustrate this point, ff14 is similar to wow in that every character has about 20 buttons, but ff14 can be played on console with controller. They have a pretty genius control scheme revolving around swapping menus, but despite having only 8 buttons at a given time, it is tremendously more difficult to play at a high level with controller vs keyboard, where you simply have more accessible buttons.

[@keystone5750]

Disregarding Ultimate, since that was out after this video, I think something worth noting in smash is the C-stick. With it, you’re able to to do any tilts (or aerials) by flicking the stick as hard as you want. This makes it much easier to do stuff like running F-tilt, or instant dash attack without getting F-smash. If we do want to bring up Ultimate, that game short hops (along with other advanced tech) much easier to do, as the 2 jump buttons can be pressed at the same time to always get a short hop. As for the buttons thing, I think having 4 buttons is ok, but the command normals have to be designed around that. If your character needs to use microdash combos, there shouldn’t be a move on 6X. Either that, or you shouldn’t be able to get certain normals while running.

[@zachariemelanson485]

Talking purely about execution difficulty of smash mechanics, I think Melee should have been used. No button remapping, practically no input buffer system, and generally faster.

[@SDhero21]

One of the things I always look forward to whenever you upload a video is going through the comments and looking at your sassy replies.

[@novriltataki]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@Drakogy]

Great episode, I think the jazz accompaniment goes a long way.

[@jondnw1]

I think it's less important how many buttons there are, but how distinct each function is. Smash Bros has two attack buttons but each one is radically different, and button combinations are universal and simple, so new players can learn the basics and jump into any character with little difficulty. BlazBlue has light/medium/heavy and the drive button which, for me at least, was much easier to learn and understand than Street Fighter's kicks and punches (and you still need to press multiple buttons and do command moves anyway so it didn't actually make anything simpler).

[@hiroprotagonest]

Smash is seen as easy because it doesn't teach anyone anything and it has team and free-for-all modes, also local play only and it wasn't at arcades so "that one good player amongst your friends" is still not as good as "that one good player at the arcade." Well, that's Melee specifically. But Sm4sh has a lower "reasonable skill cap" (as opposed to the actual skill cap of those stupid-hard situational techs that not even pros use), still has all those party modes, still has the _reputation_ of being that way, and netcode is terrible so you can blame the lag.

[@ScribeAwoken]

Rivals of Aether, while it uses Smash's single-button short hop/full jump option by default, does have the option to assign separate buttons for each. Likewise, it also has the option to use a separate button for its equivalent of smash attacks, and unlike the short hop thing, the default controls have normal and strong attacks mapped separately. Though I feel like the short hop thing in Smash isn't as egregious as some of the other examples, since it's generally more lenient than in KoF (it varies by character, with 4 or 5 being the norm, though for slower characters it can be as high as 8 frames), and the game kind of assumes a familiarity with platformers, where variable jump heights are the norm. It'd still be nice to have the option to have separate short hop/full jump buttons, though

[@SDhero21]

You choose the best example of that BB thing with Relius. You have no idea how many times my pressure with Relius got screwed up because I accidentally did a 666B instead of a 665B. It's real annoying.

[@novriltataki]

Take a wild guess who I main'ed in BBCP ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[@Xion_Stone]

dang, Venom and now Relius? your a very tech type of guy aren't you? :P lol

[@Abigdummy4life]

xLightningWolf101x Bonus: both of them and Vega/Balrog are voiced by Jun'ichi Suwabe :3

[@AkiRa22084]

For such characters I do 664B to make sure the 5B comes out. This applies if the char doesn't have a 4B.

[@Yinyanyeow]

This is where I will say that having a complex combination of buttons can be as much a hinder as much as it can be a boon. Something to keep in mind. I know at times having less is more but having each do something well is a tricky topic.

[@Sephiel263]

I've been wanting a short hop button in Smash Bros. for years and while it can be done using emulators and macros it's hardly a desired way to get there. The tilt/ smash/ dash attack has thankfully become easier with Sm4sh since you can rebind tilts to the second analogue stick but a short hop button would go such a long way still.

[@jasonalen7459]

> With Sm4sh *laughs in 3DS*

[@GigaHands]

FINALLY SOMEONE AGREES WITH ME THAT SMASH'S INPUT SYSTEM IS WACK. Tilts are honestly the single most awkward input I've ever seen. Not 360s, not SNK style pretzel motions, those feel less unnatural because you don't have to LIMIT YOURSELF in a stressful situation like a fighting game. The gentle, middle ground of pressing the stick not-quite-all-the-way, for frigging NORMALS, is a bigger execution barrier imo.

[@Eiv4ever]

thank you, now i can show this video to my friends who say tekken is easy

[@novriltataki]

Movement in Tekken is kinda hard. Other aspects of the game are also hard but for other reasons than sheer execution.

[@novriltataki]

Also remember that Tekken has a buffer mechanic that makes it easier to do 2 button combinations, and helps in punishment and combos (holding 1 button, then pressing the other button)

[@LuisHGarcia]

Also one thing that helps with some 3D fighters is the standardizing of certain commands available to all characters. In Tekken, standard throws are both right or left limb buttons. VF, all throws use punch and guard. 5FS simplifies this more in where commands for other throws will always end a front or back direction input be it a standing or crouching throw. DoA is kinda similar in this regard. So that does make me think of helping to make 3D FGs despite sometimes less buttons easier as per the video.

[@HawooAwoo]

I actually find Tekken to be more "intuitive" and "accessible" when it comes to execution. But I'm not sure how much this has to do with me being a keyboard/hitbox user (I played modded DS1 on m+kb with no issue) or my personality/preferance.

[@LuisHGarcia]

That makes sense. I do think that some people can just "catch" things with a specific game times. Similar to finding a character you like that "just fits." But others may need to put more effort of that "catch" Games are as different as people. Lots of factors.

[@capefeather]

I think the crux of this is there are actually two competing issues: ease of figuring out how to do an input, and precision of doing the input you want consistently. They're often at odds with each other; having fewer buttons makes inputs easier to figure out, but also easier to do the wrong input. 236L+M is easier to figure out how to do than 236236C, but with the latter you don't have to do things like whiffing an air attack for no apparent reason while falling so you don't accidentally buffer a Dragon Rush. One can help really new players feel like they can control their character at a very basic level, while the other helps players who want to move beyond that basic level. It does seem like they don't have to be at odds with each other, though, at least with console-based games. Controllers have a lot of buttons regardless, so a game might can more easily assign redundant inputs (like having both a button and the C-stick for a category of attacks) while also avoiding control overlap. Smash I think doesn't care for addressing this, but its clones seem to have the right idea. Rivals of Aether, for example, has separate buttons for tilt and strong (smash), and while having all shoulder buttons mapped to the same options seems a little weird, it does make it a little easier to do things like buffered wavedashes. I think BlazBlue is at least self-aware of its overlapping issues. Mai Natsume almost feels like a satire on the accessibility concept, especially her challenge mode, which honestly just comes off as masterful trolling.

[@Bootyzipperooni]

You make some good points about how having extra buttons is good, but I really think it's important to note that there are other ways to fix the problems you mentioned without having to add an extra button.

[@alteredroot1541]

I love how well structured and reasonable your arguments are. I wish more ppl in the fgc would be that way.

[@ghoulin9532]

Another aspect of accessibility is the info the game actually gives you. This is just coming from a melee/smash 4 player, but smash really doesn’t have any kind of tutorial on any of its most important mechanics because it doesn’t believe it’s a fighting game. DI, percents, move properties, combos, edgeguarding, and even intentional techs like L cancelling which aren’t explained to the player at all. I’d say its poor training mode doesn’t help either.

[@flip.flap.]

As a smash 4 player, I totally agree. When I was just starting to try to get good, way back in Brawl, I was always having to look stuff up on ssbwiki because I'd hear the commentators talking about it in a match and I'd think, "DI? What's that?" I learned most of the mechanics in Smash gradually over a period of time. I REALLY wish that Smash 4 had a tutorial mode where I could practice SDI, because it's become very important to have good SDI to fight Bayonetta.

[@armorparade]

this is a really good video... ...BUT you lose points for never once mentioning Persona 4 Arena, it's hard to think of worse offenders of this thing than P4A, the supposed king of accessibility, with its absurd amount of button combinations and insistence on retaining mechanics from its sister games BB and GG without cutting down on what makes those games as complex as they are

[@lastburning]

I was thinking about the absurd button layout of P4A as well. The picture that shows the controls looks like a joke :D

[@bumpyface228]

Even some of the simple fighters have some complexity to them. The reward of practicing executions, remembering combos and button sequencing and frame data is executing what you practice in real matches. There will always be someone better than you, but that is the beauty of the genre. Losing and then going to the lab and working harder.

[@mikaela5938]

That point about Smash is I think why I kind of like games like Rivals of Aether and Super Smash Flash 2 where I can have dedicated buttons for dashing and smash attacks and in Rivals case a shirt hop button. Makes those games feel a lot better than regular Smash titles

[@pokedude]

usually when people talk about hard games they mean the combos have strict timing or too many routes for multiple situations, gauges and opponent characters or are hard too confirm because there're too many infomation on the screen

[@dash445566]

God tier content

[@gates7831]

I think that the increase in the 4-button control layout has less to do with marketing and more to do with the fact that fighting game developers feel obligated to release games on consoles, whose controllers only have 4 face buttons. Still a very good video, and a great counterpoint to the "conventional wisdom" or "more buttons=more complicated". Still, I think the nature of inputs is the bigger barrier than just number of buttons. It's more likely for a newer player to bounce off a game because they can't do QCF/DP/double QCF/charge/Triangle/Pretzel/Pentagram/walkup 720 motions than because the game uses 6 buttons instead of 4, although maybe that just proves your point.

[@PinkArmFlexer]

I get what you mean about games conforming to four face buttons, but personally, I find it very easy to press shoulder buttons along with the face buttons. Although pressing trigger buttons (L2, RT, etc.) is a little more frustrating than I'd like, access to L1/RB/etc. at least allows for easily accessible 5 button games.

[@hiroprotagonest]

I have just as much trouble in fighting games moving around with a gamepad as I do using the attack buttons, so it's just comfort and no control scheme will feel comfortable to someone who's never played a traditional fighter (though keyboard/fightstick seem more intuitive for punch/kick layouts; top row of punches, bottom row of kicks. But when you take Guilty Gear or Arcana Heart or something, those don't have that kind of layout but still have 5 buttons before any macros).

[@skaven969]

this video series should have way more views thank you novril!

[@acerblack7423]

Some people like me prefer 4 button games because i can play with 4 fingers on 4 buttons, pinky is too weak for playing and doing 1 finger pressing 2 or 3 buttons isnt fun. So people like less button games not because its easier but its a preference matter.

[@novriltataki]

Guilty Gear is a 5 button game but you never need to press 5 buttons at the same time... I end up doing most of the button presses with the same 2-3 fingers.

[@acerblack7423]

novriltataki playing with pinky isnt fun, i like the 1 button - 1 finger feel, its preference.

[@MrGameAndToy]

Personally, the only issue I've encountered input wise in smash is accidentally jumping when I want to do an up tilt, and that was fixed by learning to buffer it. I get how it can be confusing for prospective competitive players, however.

[@GenericSoda]

This is a pretty interesting episode. I agree about a lot of fighters selling themselves as simple and I think the Fantasy Strike video did a great job of spelling how to make a game simple. I kind of wish stuff like Pocket Rumble and P4A had come up here though, because they're good examples of game sold on simplicity but have tilts and macros respectively. In any case, I play Smash super casually so I'm glad this brought a lot of its issues to my attention! Great stuff as always.

[@TempleNUT]

From watching you video I still feel that the illusion of ease in a fighting game is more important than ease of use for tool. Convincing people that more buttons equals ease of is counter intuitive because unless you can educate all of the people that play fighting games(which you series works toward). Fighting games should have fewer button to create a less intimidating space for casual players because they make up the bigger portion of fighting game purchases compared to competitive players.

[@GIR177]

Wow, you pretty much perfectly explained why I always found Blazblue hard to learn for years now but never could properly word myself. Give me a reason to use all the buttons on my arcade stick, dammit!

[@jettmanas]

Good explanation and examples. Never played Smash or SF4, so that was interesting to see. Solid point on BB vs GG. And VF complexity w/three buttons.

[@SharntGroSabo]

Excellent video, even if it feels obvious for anyone used to the genre having it formalized is never a bad thing, I totally relate with KOF13 two buttons press for SDM, thing was tight as hell. Thanks for the hard work, Cheers:D

[@jacksfields]

Funny that people really think less buttons = easier. As a pad player I can't for the life of me play Tekken, BB or GG with just the default set. Tekken I have 8 (1+2, 3+4, 1+3, 2+4), BB I have 7 (A+B+C+D, A+B+C, C+D) and GG 8 but the same setup as BB because the games are fairly similar button wise. Call me scrub if you want to, but this works so much better than trying to maneuver my thumb across the buttons without accidentally inputting more than I need or mistiming the simultaneous inputs.

[@novriltataki]

In Tekken we had a problem where setting shortcuts made gatherings annoying. It was better with people who got used to playing claw style. And Tekken also has a buffer which really helps with multi-button moves.

[@jacksfields]

I can see that being difficult yea. I'm sadly unable to really go to gatherings due to medical stuff. I'll keep the claw grip in mind for if the situation changes ;)

[@NivMizzetFiremind]

jacksfields I use RC macro in any game it's in. But I try to make that my only one.

[@ewa1020]

don't worry, in tekken even jdcr uses shortcuts like 1+2 on his stick

[@Anken93]

That's so nice! Thank you for this video! I've actually made the mistake you spoke of in the video and feel kinda sorry!

[@KaedeLanyo]

I generally prefer more "function" buttons like in Melty Blood, than more "attack" buttons like Street Fighter. Yet, Guilty Gear's Dust doesn't bother me, because again, it's more of a tool than a raw attack in my mind.

[@gcavrubio]

I struggle a lot with Tekken's sidestep x jump/crouch

[@marche4ever]

in street figher, the most annoying thing is when you want to dash in dp, but you end up doing a super.

[@dj_koen1265]

The only time whwn more buttons is better is when the alternative is finicky and unreliable Smash is only easier with more buttons is because short hops are awfully inconsistent The buffer system and leniency doesn’t help I actually unbound my macros in guilty gear because fb dusting and such are easier when I don’t have to think about which buttons my fingers are touching Meaning 5 buttons is the max amount for me

[@DogofLilith]

Can't wait till the next episode! And I know exactly what you mean with that Smash example

[@lrdalucardart]

I just can't really get in to SSB way more because they do not allow you to use the D-Pad and always force you to use the Analog Stick... that's why small brand games like Brawlhalla feel more appealing to me since I can actually move the character exactly the way I want it, without floating or take centuries to press Up and down right after.

[@HeadmasterAutobot]

This would have been a good place to dissect Fantasy Strike's switch from 4/6HP throws to a dedicated button.

[@ShadyHitchhiker]

I had never thought of this before, I thought surely I was the only idiot who mashes buttons harder and holds them for longer when stressed, which gives me exactly the opposite result I'm hoping for. I hadn't considered splitting out jump and short hop to two separate buttons before, but the one thing I love Brawl for is the ability to disable "up to jump" which is something I have DEFINITELY enabled in every smash game since. Having the potential for a jump and an up tilt to overlap always seemed crazy to me, and was the only input overlap that really jumped out at me.

[@hiroprotagonest]

Uh... hasn't every Smash game had the option to turn tap-jump off?

[@rotatingdisc-479]

HiroProtagonest nope. Only brawl onwards.

[@lollolrk]

What would you think about Tekken then? Do you think it's un-intuitive because it has 4 buttons, one for each limb, and then directional inputs along with those buttons, not even talking about commands that require multiple button presses and directional inputs with them, while running moves or while standing moves, and so on. As a person who moved from 2D fighting games like SF4 and KOF 13/14 to Tekken, I have to say that I found the Tekken way of handling moves quite fun. Every move that has a direction with it, somehow resembles the move actually done, and works as a balancing barrier. For example, the infamous Electric Wind God Fist. The EWGF requires a F, d/f, n, f+2 to be executed perfectly. There is a directional input, button, and a frame perfect button press with the move. Since the EWGF is such a good move, it has to be difficult. But I digress. How do you see Tekken? I find the 4 buttons - 4 limbs type of layout as nice. Despite the directional inputs and the insane move list with hundreds of moves, Tekken is not that difficult to look at from an execution point of view, since most combos do not require that hard of inputs, and those that do require hard inputs, are generally strong moves. The difficult of Tekken does not come from the execution, like in KoF or SF for example, but rather from matchup knowledge, spacing, punishing and optimization. Do you think Tekken could use an extra button? If we look at a Tekken Arcade Machine, it has 5 buttons. 4 for the limbs, and one that can be assigned to anything. Would adding an extra button make any difference?

[@novriltataki]

I said the length of the motion (and not being able to block while doing it) balances the design of a move. I never claimed that gating great moves behind difficult motions (EWGF) is good design.

[@edr8054]

Davis1228 I think in GG you really need to utilize the universal mechanics in order to make situations where the opponent has the lead less oppressive. Like using Faultless Defense and Instant Blocking to create gaps in your opponents offense to punish or to atleast escape. Like fighting Ky for instance, I had this problem where I felt my buttons would just get stuffed by his pressure and I couldn't get out. Eventually I learned to FD more so he'd be pushed further where he couldn't pressure me for free or have to run in to restart pressure but risked being jab during the dash. I'd also start IB-ing moves like the 2nd hit of his 6H so I could throw him if it was spaced too close. There's also Blitz Shield which has some risk since they can Blitz back, but it can atleast beat stuff like safejumps, and your Burst which can be baited but you could use it pretty safely if you do at a point where the opponent commits to a moves animation like Faust's "Going My Way" follow from his Pogo Stance or Milla setting up the disc for Okizeme.

[@bloomallcaps]

Good video, never thought about this issue. But microdashing in BB is not as hard as it looks like, if you don't put your thumb in the directional button while doing a normal, you'll never get a command normal, it's all about practicing your combos/pokes/blockstrings and don't get nervous while doing it in a real match.

[@boredomkiller99]

just because one can overcome it doesn't mean it is not an additional execution barrier that other games don't have due to not having key normals that you would use after a dash on the same button as a forward command normal overhead.

[@hirotrum6810]

When I got to the part on overlap, I was about to write a comment about smash bros, then it actually came up XP

[@hiroprotagonest]

I think it would have been better to call this "Control Scheme Accessibility" or something, the title's a bit... misleading (but seriously).

[@jimbo5266]

It's kind of weird how macros are never mentioned. Won't most people who play SFIV use a 3xPunch and 3xKick macros? They're already there in the default controls. For VF, the default control scheme also always has macros for every possible combination, turning it from a 3 button game to a 7-button game.

[@RedHero1]

I guess that would make Rivals of Aether somewhat easier to play considering you have a shorthop button you can add.

[@1000aaronaaronaaron]

You showed a lot of Dragon Ball FighterZ but I'd like to know your opinion of how it offers accessibility and depth.

[@novriltataki]

I can't comment on a game that isn't even out yet.

[@1000aaronaaronaaron]

novriltataki comes out Friday

[@novriltataki]

I know

[@note4note804]

Sorry but this feels like an invented perspective that allows for an easy video. No one I've ever played with or tried to get into fighting games has ever asked "how many buttons does the game use?". Unless you're trying to get your mom into fighting games where the concept of a controller is hard, most people are familiar with handling a controller. Every single time what does come up is the move list and the "system" of a fighting game.

[@AkiRa22084]

I hate shoulder buttons on controllers and never have execution problems, so I personally find less buttons easier. On sticks it's fine either way.

[@chinesecovidanalswabs4752]

Excellent video.

[@NivMizzetFiremind]

That was by far the best video you guys have ever made. Give yourself a pat on the back. And pay day I'm giving you guys some pennies because you more than deserve it. Epic stuff, can't wait for the next one.

[@thesacredbeast2000]

as someone who just picked up naoto in blazblue i can honestly say doing dash 5c into rekkas is a huge pain in the ass, but i would rather have 3 buttons and the command normals on backward inputs instead, since the more normals a character has, the more useless normals you have oh also i picked up rivals of aether (smash clone) recently and boy does it help to have a smash on a different button, also i play on a d-pad because then i can have a button for dashes and quick falls too. thats how i found out that most advanced tech in smash is just compensating for bad controls, like a "perfect pivot" is just running and then turning around without accidentally dashing the other way.

[@Darkspines22]

Yo what's the audio track? It was really good

[@BlueLightningSky]

2:43 lol nope. Two button DPs are the future. Just ask arcsys and SFV.

[@geekgo4]

They're called "Strong Attacks," not. "Tilt Attacks!"

[@muto4467]

can anybody give me link the the tekken 6 clip with the mashing in arcades? thanks

[@lumiere245]

When did melty blood add a button? Can't you do everything with just ABCD?

[@Meseki04]

I'm fairly certain that the QA button is an actual button even in arcades. While it doesn't do anything unique, it is not a static multi-button shortcut; it can act as A+B+C, 4/6A+D, and 2A+B.

[@lumiere245]

neato

[@harryvpn1462]

The way you input moves is the reason why I dont like plataform fighters

[@Dark0niro]

I grew up with the PS controller mostly, so the moment I don't have all the basic buttons at the reach of my thumb I just feel awkward. I feel comfortable with BB, but GG feels harder just for that 5th prominent button that I have to have on a shoulder button. I do prefer the addition of command normals for that simple reason

[@novriltataki]

You'll get used to it within 5 hours of play.

[@hiroprotagonest]

Really? For the brief moment in time where I actually felt comfortable playing on a pad, I played GG just fine (as "fine" as I can play Guilty Gear). Now I can't because I can't move properly with a gamepad at all, let alone attack, but that's entirely different.

[@TheDarkWallChris]

I don't know about this one. Do companies really decide at a marketing level how many buttons the game should have? I've also never heard of somebody thinking a game is hard because it has lots of buttons. To me things like combo execution and the challenge of executing higher-level mechanics in general seemed more fitting for what would make a game hard or not

[@HollowMask159]

TheDarkWall Well if you look at recent games a lot of companies are shaving off buttons and adding auto combos usually just bound to 1 button to appeal to new players. Also, I wouldn't say combos are the hard part of playing fighting games, I feel like the neutral is way harder to learn. Having more buttons would help overlapping inputs in combos which makes them a bit easier but remembering all the different normals to play a good footsie game would probably seem like a lot to take in for a new player

[@TheDarkWallChris]

HollowMask159 it's a bit different, a lot of game companies are adding simple modes but they aren't shaving off the buttons entirely. The only one that I can think of that did this was persona, but it never really had a larger button layout, it launched that way. Also I kind of thought it was a garbage fighter to be honest. But to the point, simple modes are not the same as shaving buttons off the game entirely. Unless you can reference one that has actually done that recently.

[@cjbell36]

TheDarkWall MVC3 or MVCI?

[@TheDarkWallChris]

Ah, you may have a point there. I've never been too invested in capcom fighters, barely played 2.

[@hiroprotagonest]

I'm pretty sure I've heard people say stuff like "oh [game] only has four buttons thank god I get thrown off by Street Fighter controls."

[@pineiro95f80]

im dissapointed you didnt show an EG special when you show the 3 button ultra example

[@novriltataki]

You mean an EX special? Like the one in 3:21?

[@pineiro95f80]

novriltataki i meant the specific example of justin or ricky missing an ultra 1 with rufus

[@novriltataki]

I didn't know this had a name lol. I didn't follow SF4 much.

[@Azazel5021]

nice esse

[@evilagram]

Ehhhhhhh, I think you missed a lot here, especially in regards to intuition. I think the bigger deal than number of buttons or execution difficulty is how intuitively the game is designed to be understood, where Smash Bros takes the cake. I think it's laughable that you'd say pushing a button briefly to shorthop is unintuitive, considering this has been the basis of most platformer games for the last 30 years or so, since Super Mario Bros came out. Sure, Smash Bros has a different implementation than most platformer games, but still. Additionally, I think it's not a good idea considering directionals as additional buttons. Directions have a mental association that is different than just a button, which Smash Bros puts to good use. In Smash bros, you have 2 attack buttons, then 4 more moves for those attack buttons plus a direction. And, critically, each of those directional attacks goes in a different actual direction. In traditional fighters, you have 4-6 attack buttons usually, all of those go in the same direction, and you get overlap like punches and kicks, and for a beginner it's really hard to tell, "what is this move good for?" In Smash Bros, each move's use is more clear. "This move hits up, I should use it to hit people who are above me" "This move hits down, I should use it to hit people below me" Each move is more intuitively differentiated from other moves, where in fighting games, many beginners don't understand why they should use a medium punch instead of a medium kick, and I get beginners using cr.MK with ryu repeatedly trying to push me out when I'm in their face. A direction + a button is more memorable than 2 buttons. It's a better mnemonic device. You start to lose people again when you get to commands, which are difficult to learn how to perform in their own right. (and which Smash Bros understandably lacks) Things are easier to understand when they match existing experience or expectations. Being easy to understand is what creates accessibility. Accessibility is about lowering the skill floor of the game, making it easy to perform the basic actions required to play the game competently and easy to make informed decisions about what you're doing. This is why Smash Bros succeeds. The inputs required for any basic action are extremely simple. It's easy to understand what a move does, how to perform it, and what the purpose of that move is. Smash Bros has Attack, Special, Jump, Grab, and Shield. Each of these has a very distinct and obvious function. Tekken has Right Punch, Left Punch, Right Kick, Left Kick. Just from hearing those listed off, how is anyone supposed to know what each is actually good for? How is someone supposed to know that d/f1 is commonly a mid poke across characters? SF has LP MP HP LK MK HK. BB is A B C D (D is really obvious in BB at least). Understanding the difference in functions between all these moves usually requires at least cursory knowledge of framedata (which is why I get people trying to push me off at close range with repeated pokes). Anyone can understand divekick in seconds and that has only 2 buttons. Less buttons works when there are less actual functions in the game, when the functions connected to each button are more distinct from one another, and when directionals are used as modifiers in a way that correlates with actual directions as a mnemonic device. Divekick then recclaims some of the depth it lost by having the timing and spacing that you perform dive and kick influence the outcome a lot more than in other fighters. Smash Bros does much the same thing. They have smaller movesets, but they recapture that depth in the nuance of each move. If we want fighting games to be more understandable, and therefore accessible, then they need to have their more basic functions be more explicit. Smash Bros has more advanced techniques with more niche application, but understanding what your basic options are and how to use them is really simple for beginners. Accessibility is about making it so someone who is bad at the game can learn how to make purposeful decisions and be able to execute them in 10-30 minutes. It's about streamlining a smaller version of the game, and letting the bigger version of the game sit in the background for later. Most console games use every button on the controller, most fighting games don't (or only technically do by using macros on the shoulder buttons). Most console games are more easily understood, despite having more buttons than fighting games, because most console games have more clearly distinct actions attached to each button. They have 1 button for attack, and 5 buttons for other things, instead of 4-6 buttons that are all for slightly different attacks. You know what's actually pretty understandable and distinct just from observation? Special moves. Why not make a fighting game that is almost entirely special moves, and maybe 3 normals per-character? Actually, isn't that what Fantasy Strike is doing?

[@lapzidorus1786]

Very well put. I've noticed how competitive players often neglect to look at the mechanics of Smash Bros from a casual player's perspective. For casual players, having to memorize complex inputs to use a character's special moves may detach them from the actual feeling of using those moves; the clunky feeling from the extra effort put into the execution would disrupt the gamefeel. As a "former" casual player, I would know. This same sort of accessibility is what made Marvel Superheroes vs Street Fighter a favorite fighter among my siblings and myself. That game lent us a mode in which special attacks could be done with the press of a button, with the worthy sacrifice of the "less interesting" normal attacks. Within a party game setting, which Smash Bros invites, mastery isn't normally on a player's mind, but just having a good time. If one decides they want to grow as a player, they can switch to the normal playing mode with the normal attacks or further explore a select character's statistics. This versatility is one aspect of Smash Bros's long-lasting success and, for better or worse, its fan diversity.

[@evilagram]

Sakurai says he designs Smash Bros around the intermediate level player, so that beginners can do alright, then do slightly better as they learn more about the game. He purposefully designs some moves to be strong in the hands of a beginner, but useless against better players, like Kirby's Down B, which he's cited. The problem with Street Fighter or Guilty Gear, is that players need to learn things they will never encounter in any other game, like frame advantage, safe/unsafe moves, anti-air, reversals/okizeme, special move inputs, chains/links/canceling, blocking high and low, in order to play on a basic level. I've repeated c.MP, c.MP, c.MK xx spiral arrow as a counterhit confirm in SFV until beginners have died. In Smash, almost everything is minus, so until you reach higher levels of play, you'll never get shield pressured, you can always roll or grab people out of shield, which is the intuitive thing to do after blocking an attack, do something of your own. There's tons of little issues like this, and I'm still telling the beginners in my play group that they need to anti-air more.

[@hiroprotagonest]

"I think it's laughable that you'd say pushing a button briefly to shorthop is unintuitive, considering this has been the basis of most platformer games for the last 30 years or so, since Super Mario Bros came out." It makes sense to the average person's brain when they're just messing around with friends trying to do stuff, sure. But I think "intuitive" means "how easily it becomes second-nature." When I play Skullgirls, I know the light attacks are the left-column buttons, and the lower one does low moves when crouching (kicks), so whenever I want to do a fast low move I intuitively go for the bottom left. If I have trained with two separate jump height buttons, I can instinctively go for which one I need whenever I need it, while it takes more time and focus to iron out an unacceptable failure rate of shorthopping by "press the jump button very briefly." I'm not reading the rest of it because that's one hell of a text wall.

[@dimex3362]

I very much agree with this. My example of a game that is made harder by “simplification” is streetfighter 5. The game is touted as easier to get into because of shorter combos and things of that nature, but the problem is that where there used to be hard button execution such as doing 1 and 2 frame links, which could be practiced and mastered, sf5 takes most of its execution and puts it into VERY hard to react to hits. 1 hit cancel confirms, 1 hit link confirms, crouch confirms, stand confirms, counterhit confirms and confirms using the lifebar or stun meter to be able to see hits faster than the reel animation. That’s a lot of dumb execution stuff needed to play the game at the highest levels or simply to play the game optimally, whereas in sf4, I found it much easier to play optimally or at least closer to it... but I miss CH confirms all day in sf5, or I anticipate a CH confirm, but it’s a regular confirm and my combo drops etc etc etc They said sf5 would be easier to play, but in actuality for me at least it is much harder and takes much more concentration and focus if only to AA well and stop dashes on reaction and confirm optimally... all at nearly the same time.

[@HakumeiTenshi]

I disagree with this. The attack system in Smash I feel wasn't explained accurately. The type of attack you get in smash depends not just on how far you tilt the stick, but how fast you do it on top of the state of your character. If you tilt the stick forward slowly, you get a walk, even if you hold it all the way the character will only ever walk faster, but never dash or run. Because you're not dashing or running, you can't get a dash attack, or a smash by accident, you can only get a tilt. This whole video is flawed in my opinion because at lot of the execution issues can be circumvented by learning how to slow down, and practicing your inputs cleanly. The SF4 super/ultra example is an exemption because that's a problem within the programming of SF4. Things like short hops in smash aren't so much because it works the same in KoF as mentioned, and also in most platforms like Super Mario Bros. You just have to bother to practice it.

[@BloodyHand29]

How can you not address throw being 4H/6H in guilty gear. That is my biggest beef with the guilty gear mechanics.

[@darkangelzm]

I think it is because in GG usually you use an option select for the throw

[@edr8054]

Yea pretty much. Most characters can OS throw with either K or S since most characters have at least one that doesn't overlap with a command normal, so if you dont get a throw you'll get a 5-7 frame startup normal that's safe on block. Like how Sol can OS Throw with 5K.

[@brningpyre]

It's an important mechanic to use with throws. In other games you get a throw whiff, but in GG you commit to an attack or a throw.

[@BloodyHand29]

ed R fair enough. I still like having throw on a separate command like blazblue or street fighter

[@MimebladeGMail]

Please tell this to David Sirlin... I swear to God that man has issues.

[@novriltataki]

I don't understand what's the problem. Fantasy Strike has a small number of moves but a ton of buttons (5!), and it's an extremely good ratio to that prevents possible overlapping. Sounds fine to me...

[@MimebladeGMail]

It's his logic that's the problem. He seems to think simpler games along the lines of Dive Kick SHOULD be made....

[@novriltataki]

And having more fighting games with more variety is bad because...?

[@MimebladeGMail]

You say "more variety", but it's not something guaranteed as a good thing, especially if what they're trying to do is rebel against ideas that have worked well in the past. I'm not saying it's 100% bad, but I am saying if all they do is make a game to see what happens, they should be prepared for iffy results and lukewarm reactions.

[@novriltataki]

The fact that something worked well enough in the past should not discourage from trying new things. If you've played the game and think it's broken then please provide your reasoning.

[@CoolAndNormal]

please cut that intro

[@Osaarela]

But smash is not a fighting game.

[@TaskMaster5]

Old joke is old. But it factually is a fighting game. It's an arena/platform fighter.

[@MimebladeGMail]

You need to watch this channel more: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHq6mqJspZ6qmNU