Charles Isbell and Michael Littman: Machine Learning and Education | Lex Fridman Podcast

[@lexfridman]

Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast. 0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions: - Athletic Greens: athleticgreens.com/lex and use code LEX to get 1 month of fish oil - Eight Sleep: www.eightsleep.com/lex and use code LEX to get special savings - MasterClass: masterclass.com/lex to get 2 for price of 1 - Cash App: cash.app/ and use code LexPodcast to get $10 2:27 - Is machine learning just statistics? 6:49 - NeurIPS vs ICML 9:05 - Data is more important than algorithm 14:49 - The role of hardship in education 23:33 - How Charles and Michael met 28:05 - Key to success: never be satisfied 31:23 - Bell Labs 42:50 - Teaching machine learning 53:01 - Westworld and Ex Machina 1:01:00 - Simulation 1:07:49 - The college experience in the times of COVID 1:36:27 - Advice for young people 1:43:19 - How to learn to program 1:54:43 - Friendship

[@jonaspiva41]

Obviously you figured out the thumbnail, curious if you used first fit.

[@thermalrain_yt9725]

I listened to the clip about the simulation so now I'm here but I wanted to say I saw you play cyberpunk prologue and i just want to let you know the game gets infinitely better later on. I highly suggest you play the entire story doing a few side quests and stuff. I love to picture myself in the world and its beautiful and if night city was a real virtual world I would love to visit and live there. I know a lot of people that watch you probably play and love to watch you explore the story of V and Johnny silverhand being in your head and live in night city for a while.

[@ohFoou]

Hey lex I have a lot of questions whenever you get free time I would love to talk

[@tommy_1446]

Please invite Carol Nichols to your podcast.

[@frankmurillo6080]

Heay

[@NotAnonymousNo80014]

This feels like a Christmas comedy special with Charles and Michael constantly ribbing each other.

[@helenkessler6012]

Comradery is busting chops and giving bouquets We call that tight.

[@jorgeleonel6663]

Fantastic and fun interview!! Fun and Inspirational! Had a blast watching it all. Kudos to Charles, Michael AND Super Lex!!

[@samuelvenable9134]

@@helenkessler6012 I'll ljk look k you jjjjjhlulj090

[@latifasaidi5643]

I would speak more, but I have bad English, so I'm just gonna telling you ,Lex still like you are, you are good human. Thank you about those videos that you make.

[@gregorycurley7649]

English seems just fine to me! Keep it up!!

[@latifasaidi5643]

@@amos660 thanks, your comment makes me feel good.

[@michaeltrevino201]

Your English is wonderful!

[@MuteObserver]

Good Job with your English Latifa :) Have a good day! 🍻

[@cmhammer]

I am a native English speaker, and I speak and write the language well. And I plan to start using the phrase "Thank you about" myself. This isn't customary, but it makes more sense that way. Thank YOU about the tip, friend! I like Lex too. He's the best.

[@johnweningerii1977]

I think what made this episode so great was their friendship. I'd love to see more debates if the debaters are friends. The arguments they made built a bridge to one another instead of moats around their ideas. Thank you for all the work you do. This show is a beautiful gift to the world.

[@thezikaz]

This is absolutely great. Their banter is killing me 😂

[@dragrosethesecond864]

This was absolutely amazing. It's very inspiring to see the bonds of friendship and comradeship, the beauty of social interaction between people who've known each other for a very long time. As a rather socially awkward introverted young man, this conversation inspires me of the possibility of being able to forge a similar relationship in my life with my peers in the future. That I too will be able to have colleagues who are interested in the same things as me, pursue the same passions and have long meaningful conversations even when we have differing views on a lot of details (and are even able to appreciate each other for it). Thanks a lot for hosting this podcast and facilitating this conversation for us viewers to enjoy and appreciate!

[@mlittman]

Love it!

[@dharmanshah1239]

Loved it thanks for the comment all the best and I'll wish the same for me too 😊

[@mtribe3442]

I’m 10 minutes into this and think this is one of the best Lex episodes I’ve seen. I think Lex on his own is a really effective interviewer for perspectives on difficult ideas and forming common language around key principals and context. But this moderated debate style interview adds so much assurance on reasoning and that the conversation hasn’t taken significant wrongs turns leading down a rabbit hole or creating metaphorical fallacies.

[@jzen1455]

They're like a married couple with a rare level of dynamic chemistry who lovingly roast each other.

[@sebacaine6974]

Man... What an episode. I found myself, several times, looking down at the remaining time in mild panic... realizing that the episode won't last forever and hoping that it wasn't almost over yet. Brilliant.

[@scientistsbaffled5730]

I love these two dudes together you can tell their's is a nerdy best friendship, it's special

[@11Tricia11]

This is a new favorite episode. The gentlemen on today should start their own podcast. They are brilliant and have great comedic timing with each other. I work in a university town and tell all my engineering clients about your podcasts. Stay healthy and abundant blessings for 2021.

[@mlittman]

We've been experimenting with a podcast where we discuss West World: kzbin.info/aero/PLrpsa0hmc1hxKEl6PFWBl5Yt2zNNRbbx8 . Other things are cooking in the background.

[@niveyoga3242]

I would totally watch a sitcom staring these three gentlemen 😂

[@mattbowden1981]

7:15 I love the quick joke and then moving on. Would watch a show like that.

[@TJPedenTheBeard]

I loved, LOVED, *LOVED* this interview/episode! Charles Isbell and Michael Littman were each fantastic interviews on their own but this was just magical!

[@margaretklassen172]

I disagree. Mr. Isbell talked 90% of the time. That is not a conversation.

[@TJPedenTheBeard]

@@margaretklassen172 he did talk a lot more, but it seems like that's the dynamic of their relationship. Anyways, you can always watch the interview with Littman by himself if you want to hear more from him

[@supermachoalfa5015]

Lex ...brother thanks for the podcast I don't feel as alone anymore to listen to you guys talk. Been a real life changing

[@oohbeats5176]

Anybody else find this interesting yet don't have a clue what they're talking about. Sometimes I think I may have been smart in another life.

[@debralucas2224]

I am your universal travelling sister then. I often find myself in comments where I'm way out of my league but I still enjoy the convo :)

[@SugarRos]

I have zero idea what they're talking about but I find it absolutely fascinating. Like I'm just on the cusp of understanding but not quite there... They're not using fancy words and I know they're making sense but if I was asked to explain what the two sides are debating I wouldn't be able to do it at all. 🤷‍♀️

[@tonybowen455]

This was so good. I love the three person format. One of my fav episodes of yours.

[@jimbeam4736]

What a fantastic lively and intelligent conversation.

[@johnjordan3851]

damnit Lex, I was just about to get some work done.

[@navidb]

These two have amazing conversational chemistry

[@trevorcolgan7468]

I’m new to Lex. But I have to say... he is a SENSATIONAL intervIewer. He brings so much out of his guests by engaging their intellects and making the feel comfortable

[@ImrozeAslam]

I was lucky to study multiple ML courses by them including the ML one taught by both, during my MSCS from Georgia Tech. They were among the most rigorous yet most interesting, well-taught and fun courses that I ever had. I experienced that first ML assignment that they talked about. I didn't like the idea much in start but loved it after some time, like they said. I always remember the importance of data set and no free lunch theorem now in my career as a Data Scientist.

[@darienlakeAwesomeSauces]

“With great power comes great power” - such a great line.

[@danellwein8679]

wow ... this was really good ... thank you so much for this Lex ... i really enjoy looking forward to your podcasts ..

[@helenkessler6012]

Thank you Lex I was bored needed brain meat.

[@interstellarbeatteller9306]

haha brain meat Then music must be brain drink!

[@kylehustead5930]

Lex is bringing some serious value to the table with this podcast. He is absolutely crushing it! My new favorite podcast.

[@petarprlina423]

2 people, 1 podcast? Great!

[@lexfridman]

I hope to host occasional debates on this podcast in the future, so this was a test of having 2 guests on.

[@chronicsnail6675]

@@lexfridman LEXXZ WASSUP BROOO nice content keep it up will love to see u host debates GL 👍👍👍

[@petarprlina423]

@@lexfridman That's a great idea, Lex.

[@DUTYcallsMRswift]

​@@lexfridman we would love that!!!!!!!!!

[@maggyfrog]

2 experts 1 robot :D

[@shubhpachchigar1457]

Stephen Wolfram and Eric Weinstein would be epic!!

[@TJPedenTheBeard]

Yes please!

[@hong-junepark3701]

Absolutely

[@TheThostus]

Oh man i can already hear the banter between them both now, we need this ASAP.

[@s.tahsin.r2288]

Lex's house is going to explode

[@robertfrost7495]

Let's start a petition for this .

[@DrProgNerd]

I have never been more fascinated watching a conversation about things I don't understand. Their enthusiasm was enough to overcome my utter ignorance of what they were talking about. Lol !!

[@Theoretical.Reality]

Really nice episode Lex thanks! The dynamic is really different from when Charles was solo, but I really like this format (2 guest), hope to see more of this in the future!

[@pandoramondragon1140]

An ultimate frisbee reference on a Lex Fridman podcast!? What a gem.

[@frankd1156]

I love Lex..he is inviting diverse people in the show. I can relate..seeing a brother in technology. I am 16yrs black man and I want to build biggest smartest robot no one ever built.I want to see more brothers in the show

[@KL2023-kl]

Totally agree with Professor Isbell about Data, Program and all those Machine Learning algorithms. I am right now actively doing AI/ML course and I am thrilled to hear what these professors have to say. Thank You Lex.

[@darin_hagre]

Another incredible episode... one of the best yet! Keep up the good work, Lex!

[@jasonlind3065]

Hell yea I love hearing Charles viewpoint. He's so quick.

[@Patrick-dy3ls]

Three gents

[@APCooper]

This was an entertaining podcast.. in a humorous way.

[@kevinayers7144]

As a current student of Isbell I can tell you the connections happen within SLACK. The experience is better than being on campus as far as learning goes.

[@isbellHFh]

It’s also where I correct students when they misspell my name.

[@kevinayers7144]

@@isbellHFh Phew, good thing youtube lets you edit comments :)

[@cesarlapa]

This is the best interview I saw in a long loooooong time

[@ecks77]

These two need a show together. Hilarious.

[@mlittman]

We're experimenting with some ideas like watching West World together and then talking about it: kzbin.info/aero/PLrpsa0hmc1hxKEl6PFWBl5Yt2zNNRbbx8 .

[@pirotrav]

I love the cadence of the discourse. I feel like I'm among friends. You're both champions of your field and I'm just some DevOps Engineer in the great big tech world, but there's an subtle essence captured here of detail and specificity I find lacking in my daily interactions. Even working on the software field it's s a rare person that is willing to sit and argue the finer points with spirit and aplomb and not become annoyed ot disinterested. Great stuff. Also I would watch that style of show you mentioned.

[@pirotrav]

Also the irony of all my typos is not lost on me. Smartphones are the devil 😆

[@bradeverett7668]

who else falls asleep to this and wakes up with a extended vocabulary?

[@BlackThoughts0]

this is the CS equivalent of Abbott and Costello's "Who's on First?"

[@uncertaintysign443]

If this turns into an Intellectual Friendship podcast I wouldn't mind at all. That was really heartwarming and lovely.

[@davidgood5220]

I wish I could love someone the same way Charles and Michael love each other.

[@craneology]

By far the best conversation I have seen on your channel. Keep them coming!

[@consumer1843]

Minimal set of scientists across differences discuss various topics... without over-the-top emotional affects. This is informative and has long-term values.

[@m3tamargaret228]

Love this conversational debate format! Nice touch!

[@mikal2338]

22:33 “The secret is to know when the last moment is”

[@Plumbmonkeyrocks]

thank you for sharing this video. I have been studying programming for just a couple of years now. I am doing this privately as I work fulltime and don't have the money for community college . In addition when I did visit the local community college about enrolling in the computer science course the head of the department actually said to the group of us inquiring about the course that very few of us would be able to successfully navigate this field. I felt like there must be something wrong with the course like this road will lead the students off a cliff. I have had problems learning in traditions settings in the past so that resonated with failure for me and I am not willing to fail at this. Fortunately I am well introverted so long study sessions taking place in my private space is something I enjoy. My goal is to work with Machine Learning and Virtual Reality just not sure in what way yet. I appreciate the positive and insightful voices of Charles and Michael its so good to know there are people like them in the game! I agree we will move into more immersive virtual environments for all kinds of reasons and that we should not be afraid of AI as it is really about how we choose to use it so we need to be worried about ourselves :) . I appreciate hearing the discussion about the difference between struggle and suffering. I struggle with figuring out what my JS syntax should be for solving coding challenges. This is not suffering its more similar to playing a video game where I am not easily able to overcome the boss at the end of a level. My path to becoming an effective programmer isn't about it being easy its that I am connected to technology and have been since I was a child its just that I am starting to figure out more about what I enjoy doing and expressing my vision for the future. In short that is a version of the star trek universe where human beings don't need to deal with money anymore only developing skills in areas that really are of interest. If you are interested in coding I suggest starting at freecodecamp.org and you can search CS50 on KZbin. Harvard University has been kind enough to post their computer science course online, some really excellent lectures there plus you can play with the cat if you want :)

[@Didgeridoo42]

Lex, I know the probability of you reading this is slim, but I just want you to know that I absolutely love your content, it brings me back to the days when I would watch the discovery channel as a kid and learn about space and technology. Thank you so much for creating this!

[@nevengerencir6796]

Lex your podcasts motivated me to make a turn in life and learn programming, I love it I am close to start applying for jobs, I just finished learning javascript under the hood. Gonna be doing frameworks and PHP now!

[@rashad5969]

I wish a had a bond, friendship, and respect for someone the way these two guys have for each other. I don't have friendships like this. I can just imagine these two out for dinner and wine and it's probably the most joyous time ever.

[@chrishaughey648]

Thanks for everything, Lex!! Merry Christmas!!

[@inisus]

The intellect of Charles Isbell...

[@JG-kn7ew]

The dynamic of these two gentlemen is incredible.

[@SmellyBodega]

These are awesome just seeing how organic the conversation and relationship with all the quirks included between the two, i like the stand in the background and moderate approach, very genuine but the 1 on 1 Lex fridman ft. guest gets to so much more of the character and core beliefs. I think the moderation is great for returned guests, because then you are familiar with all parties, and allow to the topic to expand either way who am i but this is awesome

[@SloppyPastrami]

this is the best podcast you have done, I would have never been exposed to 2 great thinkers that realize the need for other people in order to complete ideas,

[@samayselahisrael]

I absolutely love this interview and the people in it.

[@antondrozdov7607]

I did Udacity’s ML Nano Degree after my Math and Stats bachelor back in 2016. It helped me to land my first data science role. Thank you for your work, brilliant people!

[@giraffecolor5681]

the chemistry is so magical that the conversation just draws me in

[@Mohawks_and_Tomahawks]

My new Favorite Podcast.

[@stefanovergari9815]

at minute3:12 i alredy knew i was goin to love this, there is some chemistry between these two

[@yahyae420]

I love the fact that he brings people again

[@EugeneVlasovca]

I guess it was your online course on machine learning? You guys are sooo awesome ! Have learned a ton and really love you Thanks

[@ChaiTimeDataScience]

Lex, I'll keep trying to get your attention. I interview my ML heroes over chai and would be honoured to interview you. Can I convince you to make an exception to drinking coffee for an interview over chai? Thanks for all of your amazing work in 2020 that helped us get through this year!

[@TheDanielLivingston]

Ha! I’m in the OMSCS program and took Reinforcement Learning from them.

[@jimmyrox8835]

Great conversation! I've always know that I work best under pressure or waiting till the last minute. Never got the last part until Charles said it though. You have to know when the last minute is. That makes so much sense to me. I always finish correct an on time waiting till the last minute. Where the other ppl around me struggle with this concept. The last minute and the point of no return are the are separate things.

[@jimmyrox8835]

@@user-bp3mh7pe7f ty I'm good tho. An I only use signal

[@SLIMZ34]

I could listen to Charles and Michael talk for ages

[@krgkrmb]

Lex my brother, thank you for broadening our unknown realms sir. Sir Lex, Sir Charles, Sir Michael, greetings from Omaruru, Namibia.

[@druestaples3044]

This was really fun to listen too! Good job Lex!🧠

[@5hawnK3lly]

+1 love the adversarial format. they are practically comedic in conversation.

[@ghty102]

Charles Isbell is a gift.

[@ibrahimadiallo7444]

I like it because they were really comfortable with each other, and that's really good because it makes it funny and insightful. Can't wait to see who you'll have next on the podcast.

[@chronicsnail6675]

Dam scientists are hard on eachother 🤣

[@tionneanddavid]

This guys feels so kind

[@thegoatmen7736]

This kind of friendship is the kind of friendship many of us only have as kids.

[@xXxBladeStormxXx]

Man I love these two. I remember first watching their videos some 5 or 6 years ago on Udacity.

[@quaidcarlobulloch9300]

Amazing format. Looking forward to the computational neuroscience interview!!

[@cipaisone]

man, keep inviting this two, it's going to be a sitcom :)

[@brunoribaric9683]

Rarely do you see 2 people complement each other so well as Isbell and Littman do.

[@danielm3772]

They are a joy to listen to, thank you Lex ! Also, the idea of bringing 2 people with different opinions/personalities seems great to me.

[@MrClarktom]

This was a really fun dynamic

[@sageagbonkhese4091]

Good podcast. Good to see that kind of friendship.

[@pablomarani3799]

1:55:20, amazing thought “He sees the world in a similar enough but different way that is sort of like having another life. It’s sort of like I get to experience things that I wouldn’t otherwise get to experience because I would not naturally gravitate to them that way. and so he just shows me a whole other world. It’s awesome”.

[@michaelsmith9714]

The simplicity in the unprofessional of the camera and sound makes me trust your content more. It just natural.

[@fierval]

I love these guys! Their machine courses are amazing. :)

[@thelocust1919]

this podcast really shows how human thought and emotion is lightyears ahead of language. So many chapters of this interview, I understand that the guests where trying to express or describe their ideas. but being held back by language that couldnt connect or express what they wanted to share.

[@TheThriftShopSampler]

I really dig this three person format for discussion. Now Im wondering as to which other duos of great minds would make for electric content.

[@Caliberx427]

Lex, If you haven't already done so, I think you've got a great clip starting around 15:00 minute mark when you ask about the necessity of suffering in the learning process. It certainly resonated with me. Cheers.

[@ianyliu]

Just completed the machine learning course they discussed and can confirm: you hate it till you love it!

[@benjaminylvisaker7860]

Re Charles' riff on "x equals y"... that's why "=" should be pronounced "IS ASSIGNED" in most programming languages. That's how I taught it in intro programming. Helps smooth over one early hurdle.

[@Knal031339]

That is a wonderful conversation and it felt like I was hanging out with friends.

[@tanyapoulin8585]

I love how Charles often draws the conversation back to accessibility and privilege

[@Dima-rj7bv]

Joscha Bach and Sir Roger Penrose debate! It has a stunning conversation about the nature of consciousness!

[@in4moon]

TBH I love the 2 camera setup ... it allows to really focus on the content, and not be distracted by flashy angle changes. I would keep it the way it is. As it goes for audio, we can always chase perfection, both with inputs and post processing, using some of the tricks of the trade to provide best quality. I would never say no, to a great audio over a good audio.

[@Hockeyfanhab]

Michael Littman’s Reinforcement Learning course was my first and favorite course I took at Georgia Tech.

[@rahulkakkarscience]

17:25 - Suffering vs struggling 58:23 - Tools make us efficient in destryoing or creating. 1:36:38 - Advice for young people.

[@grahamjoss4643]

Great conversation. I enjoyed the dynamic

[@codeyourlife4987]

These guys remind me of the Key & Peele of academics. Does anyone else feel that way?

[@oldcountryman2795]

This is like sitting in McDonald's at 8am listening to two old guys debating whether the Walmart opened in '82 or '83.

[@zanyarzohourian9398]

thank you lex for your great podcast :) in my ph.d. journey I have learned a lot by watching your videos, besides reading papers and experimenting with code I found your podcast as an inspiring source of knowledge. thanks again.

[@mlittman]

@@zanyarzohourian9398 I'm pretty sure that wasn't the real Lex. :-(

[@shashankm14]

It'll be really interesting to see a debate between a classical economist and a Keynesian one about how to deal with the economic fallout of Covid. 😊