Cheaters, Trolls Or Tryhards? | A Complete Introduction To Ballgroups

[@Kattatonia]

These ballgroup playstyles already found their way into 8v8 BG's lol

[@eng.gabrielmorais9643]

Most case, a normal person get tired of being zergged down by a bunch of ppl that can’t kill them other way, and create a group to shit on zergling’s head.

[@BlueBaron3339]

For me it's a matter of respect. There is no more sophisticated and demanding skill set in gaming than that of an outstanding full group shot caller. And no greater feeling that to be part of a team - especially a team of people with very mixed levels of gamer skills. After nearly 40 years of playing online games, the people I remember most lacked individual gamer skills. Great shot callers and wonderful team players transcend that IMO. What I miss most in ESO is the 24 player groups. Where I disagree is that more than 12 players are a zerg. Not if they're following one lead.

[@daviddawn5613]

Ball group is just cringe at this point .imagine using more than 8 ulti for a single person because they get bomb just a few minutes ago😂. Have already tryed to play with ball and honestly it s boring . After it s my opinion. Sorry but running,echoing vigor +sime other hot , waitng for ulti or pull set like dc or rush or agony for killing some ppl or zerg , it s soo easy . Even blind(or half) ppl can do it.

[@tehallanaz]

It only really sucks when each faction has two balls at a single keep and the server resets

[@notmyproblem88]

the suggestion that there are "ballgroups" and if you're not a ballgroup you're a 'casual' player already gives away your bias. Many of us "casual" players have tried ballgroup playstyle and found it pathetic and lacking. We didn't level our players just to then roleplay as a bot train. The problem with ballgroups is that they rely on essentially performing ddos attacks on the server. All they're doing is overloading the server so that other players cannot access their abilities, even automatic passives like Slippery for example. The only players who think ballgroup is a skilled playstyle are....ballgroup players. We all know that Cyrodiil lags out easily with a large group of players in one place. Ball groups simply exploit this. Furthermore, the outcome of ballgroup play is something we "casual' players have witnessed. They all end up doing the same thing. Running around in circles for long periods of time, desperately ult-dumping solo players. It's boring for everyone involved and all it does is further degrade the Cyrodiil experience.

[@Degonyte]

The term 'casual' here is used to distinguish players who do participate in group play, but do not spend any time optimizing their set-up or skills. It's an imperfect term, but still accurate enough when we try to distinguish those players from not just ballgroups, but smallscales and other organized groups which rely on more advanced teamwork. Not to mention the wording is still less biased than calling people bots. And if as a casual player you try to mimick ballgroup play without fundamentally altering your approach to the way you play the map, you will indeed find it lacking and pathetic, as I already explain at length in the video. The principles of ballgroup play are not unique to ballgroups. When I play in a 4-man and we end up killing large amounts of enemy players with just 2 DDs and 2 healers, what is the excuse then? Lag? Or just people using their skill and coordination to overcome a more numerous enemy.

[@cowspoopmagic]

Whaa 😂 lmao

[@MikeDementor]

Yes... And also that's exactly why we always "booted from the server" to reset things and make them look like fools .. guess what, doesn't work. When I enter a gameplay with people playing with a lot of stuff and running like idiots, I leave and enter later to play.

[@mjlee8013]

You say bgs take skills, because you had to keep your buffs up? As 1vX'er I have to keep my buffs up myself, keep pressure on my enemies, keep my heals running, watch my sustain and to have a combat awareness on maximum level to not get cornered and zerged down. As long cross-healing is completly broken, ball groups don't require much skills that slightly above average PVP'er doesn't already have.

[@Degonyte]

Guess that's why so many ballgroups eat shit immediately when pressured. It takes skill to get it right.

[@mjlee8013]

@@Degonyte Not every group with cross-healing is a ballgroup.

[@Degonyte]

Yes I'm aware of that

[@outlaw4life546]

ballgroups are packa of players twho like to compensate their personal and skill issues by ult dumping 4 random with 12

[@Degonyte]

🐸

[@laoch5658]

Or maybe they are doing group pvp like the game intend you play

[@TheLostSoulESO]

Highly informative video, great work brother. Love from PCNA

[@ramona6902]

Well put, really like the matter of fact tone throughout the video. I would like to see a followup with more details in how to counter. Negate, CCs, sieges etc just don't have the impact that they used to (from solo player persepective). It's boring to play a campaign with alliance loyal ballgroups that play the map, possibly with another friendly ballgroup or surfing friendly zergs. Just makes me wanna go IC instead

[@Degonyte]

Thanks. The issue with such a video would be that first off, many of the best tactics against ballgroups are simply ballgroup tactics. So much of that video would just be me essentially explaining how to be a ballgroup. Second, solo players by design do not have much of an impact on ballgroups or any groups. Siege is still the best one though. It might not look like it has an impact because it doesn't one-shot them or even takes the healthbar down, but being in constant siege creates a lot of pressure on a group, making them much more vulnerable when pushed. So with siege you might not directly kill anyone, but you are helping create a situation in which the ballgroup will eventually succumb or at the very least retreat.

[@mryoshi4762]

Good and informative summary.

[@Oppetsismiimsitsitc]

Cyrodiil, as it stands now, is quite clearly designed for ball groups.

[@pjoterem141]

When will ballgroups evolve into crabs?

[@cowspoopmagic]

😂😂😂

[@zakkbass2816]

your outr0 music is fire

[@JoyOfSnarks]

Another reason not to PVP, I play to relax not be harassed.

[@outsider2638]

That part of the Ichthyosaurus made me subscribe.

[@Degonyte]

Glad to see evolutionary marine biology is good for engagement!

[@The_Philosophoenix]

the 6 Paleontology channels I subscribed to during the pandemic would agree with you xD

[@TheBigOBob]

I get what youre saying and i dont doubt the "skill" to play in one... but hard disagree on Ball Groups. Watching a group take a whole wall of counter seige and just strait ignore it is grossly unbalanced. Your argument that Ball Groups just want to "fight" is also kinda a stretch to take. They aren't looking to "fight" they look to just steam roll over players... sure you can say "Well i play in one. What would you know..." Well, as a solo player, that's all the other side sees. Run away, hide, build ults, steam roll, run away, repeat. Its AP farming and nothing more, and it's hot garbage to even try and play against. I see them i just go elsewhere as its not even worth the time or effort. I'll let them PvDoor.

[@insatsuki_no_koshou]

I think group play should be rewarded, but right now the stacking of shields and heals is making it boring. There's not even a point in attempting to fight a stacked group, especially once Azureblight is dead. Some of our raids (very casual, we have no requirements but somewhat loosely being with the crown and not on the other side of the map) have just ended with frustration because there was not a chance of winning. Allow me to compare it with World of Tanks, where a bad player would lose in say 60% of matches. In Cyro, it feels more like 90%, or even worse. And if that's the experience for a new player, I'm not surprised Cyrodiil has such a small player base. I'm not hating on ballgroup players, but I'm saying ZOS should lower the power cap. Would also make it easier for ballgroups to find a challenge, a point you have mentioned im your video.

[@Degonyte]

Yeah I heavily disagree with the Azureblight nerf. It provided actual counterplay options for casual groups without the need for much organization. There is still counterplay, but it already requires a bigger degree of coordination. Or I guess just put everyone in that new siege set and Coldfire/Oil/Meatbag everything.

[@insatsuki_no_koshou]

​​@@DegonyteThe thing is, I kinda get the nerf tho, if Battleground players are to be believed that Azureblight was downright oppressive. The fact the casuals were willing to farm LoM (out of all dungeons!) to have some viable counterplay to me is a sign of a deeper problem. (Besides, are you still a casual after spending a weekend's time in LoM? Half-joking.) Maybe a soft cap on similar shields and heals would be a viable solution, with reduction setting in after the the second stack of the same skill (to keep PvE largely unaffected). I'm just brainstorming, but my point is that I would prefer a solution in the fundamental game design rather than through item sets.

[@Degonyte]

​@@insatsuki_no_koshou Azureblight being that popular is mostly a thing on NA, where pretty much everyone in a zerg was wearing it. On EU, it was mostly just organized groups running it specifically to target ballgroups. I play on both servers but am an EU main, so maybe that perspective makes me a little less impressed with that set being as out of control as the devs suggested. I think the main issue with trying to target ballgroups specifically is that the best you could do is target the way they play now. In the end, ballgroups are just the meta of group play, and any measure against them is going to affect other forms of group play in some way as well. A well-timed Barrier can save a ballgroup just as well as a casual guild. Personally, I'm not sure what the best course of action would be since I don't want to get to a point where organized group play is not rewarded anymore. I played with ballgroups on no-proc, and there you already had a sort of situation where sheer numbers won most fights. If that sort of a meta would be introduced on more busy servers, it would just encourage faction stacking, and probably end up making the experience more miserable for everyone.

[@insatsuki_no_koshou]

​​@@DegonyteI agree, it's a difficult balance to strike, to make group play rewarding enough to matter but not too rewarding to make fights uninteresting. I think a HoT/shield stacking soft cap is something that could be adjusted in numbers based on how things develop, and there are other benefits from group play that remain regardless, like coordination of set and class bonusses. But I'm not dead set on this idea (not that it mattered anyways haha). The first thing would be to make ZOS acknowledge that things are out of balance right now.

[@PEANUTS-PC-EUR]

ball groups should be banned in pvp it kills the pvp and the players alone are at a disadvantage Now we only see ball groups sometimes I see 5 or 6 at the same time thank you for your clip

[@Degonyte]

The fact you are not grouped doesn't mean you're alone.

[@crashlag420]

​@@Degonyte But still at a huge disadvantage. Most randoms simply aren't coordinated enough to survive a ball group let alone overpower one. I've never seen a ball group get defeated unless they were separated and hunted down one by one. Then they teabag like they did any real work beyond spamming tarnished and dark convergence. That's the part that bothers me personally. The toxicity coming out of some of these groups just kill any motivation to do anything. Their entire existence is built around harassing and stalling enemy players and then being toxic when not enough players are online to deal with it. I don't know if you've seen console cyrodiil but it's almost entirely run by ball groups. Occasionally you'll have a group of randoms coming together at just the right time to bulldoze an enemy keep lbut its so rare its almost unheard of.

[@qwp1026]

It always require high skill and coordination in mid to large comps. We have that in many other games such as WoW, Overwatch, Valorant etc. In such games premade teams fight with other teams with similar or near ELO. However in Cyrodiil it is akin to a premade optimized comp vs pugs or uncoordinated players. Such so it is like having a 5 player premade picking off a low ELO pug random group in a moba game. I don't know what to say about that, everybody enjoys the game differently.

[@Gade_Thrash]

Not to be confused with dark convergence lol

[@loooree3883]

gentleman

[@plexxarbiitch]

Wow, I didn’t know there was a word for the type of ppl that made me hate playing pvp in this game

[@pjoterem141]

nooooo we're not a ballgroup we're 8 man warden with a pull!!!!!

[@Degonyte]

me

[@Auldus]

I'm a solo pvper, i am also a nightblade brawler. I would rather not use stealth but the current pvp climate forced me into a stealth loadout because it is literally the only solution to roving killsquads in imp city that spam echoing vigor and backbar restos on their solo loadouts. If you are spotted by one of these ballgroups it is a near instant death. No matter how good you are. The cross healing and slows are simply too much. Scribing has me even more worried. Now these groups will have skill based radial pulls that can also breach, stun, or heal teammates. Meaning they can retire dark convergence and slot even more potent bombing sets. And aren't restrained by the 21 second cooldown of DC either. Or tether heals that can be paired with the life bond. I'm afraid that ballgroups will be so powerful in gold road that keeps will be seiged by no less than 5 or 6 coordinated players stacking these skills. Spamming heals and bomb loadouts, pulling and wiping huge swaths of players with titanic cleave, vicious death and plaguebreak every time their CC immune wears off. The worst part is that only 1 player has to run this loadout for it to kill dozens of people at a time there is no counter except for a counter bomber which won't matter because the ballgroup is so small that bombs don't scale high enough to be lethal, it will literally be the only thing you see. Mark my words.

[@sk8legendz]

Also remember zos said lag was from game having to calculate all our buffs and CP? How is scribing going to help I wonder lol

[@TheDjuske]

14:10 scathing Good content

[@Degonyte]

In that case it was because we were playing an unfun campaign, not a lack of experience 🤓

[@P4NxC4K3]

Why has cyrodiil devolved into these tactics

[@Degonyte]

Because they are the most effective to kill players

[@stellasalamander9022]

Ballgroups :pepehands:

[@rdhjfjfjfjfyfjf]

Elfs bane still work very well against groups

[@sk8legendz]

The funny part about ball groups. Is that everyone just throws themselves at the machine Gun fire of the ball groups, rather than actually using strategy to take them down. The fundamental concept of a ball group is coordination and teamwork. And when you can find a way to interfere with their coordination, they can't function as a team as effectively. And it makes it so much easier to focus single targets and kill them I always tell people spam knockbacks stuns and CCs on them. Especially on their attempted ult dumps. Messes their whole flow up and eventually they slip and you can kill them off

[@davidbenton3106]

negate negate negate............ Need multiple negates. One is not enought...

[@ramona6902]

Not that simple. You need a good sync between negates, sieges, proc sets such as plaguebreak. Spamming stuns just gives them immunity in that small window when they should be bursted. And negate does nothing on its own, it has to be combined with sieges, counterbombs, ult dumps, the works

[@sk8legendz]

@@ramona6902 The only way to beat them is to dismantle their formation. Everything you said is entirely useless unless you do what I said I have single-handedly. Put an end to a 1/2 hour. Chase over a ball group by simply going to the keep and doing what I said Stunt immunity means nothing when their group is so separated that they have to keep focusing on grouping back up. That's why they're called a ball group. They ball up and they work together because separately they're actually kind of bad

[@iDraçen]

Simping for ball groups 😂 (funnily enough probably a good ball group guild name 😂)

[@crashlag420]

Tower trolls????

[@mipmip3855]

Wow - thanks for saying all this! 100% agree... nice editing also; btw I like the the convergent evolution comparison 😀

[@osci2507]

🐸

[@sunni6647]

so a ballgrp is just a bigger grp - a raid - a warband so to speak yes? took eso players long enough to figure out that when they loose they could just stack bigger grps onto eachother and u know win more vs solo/duos/smaller grps - and lemme tell u this - in every other realm vs realm or pvp game where this mechanic works - it was not in the best interest for all players enjoying pvp content - it funneled more newbs into mass pvp and worse personal skill and everyone who knows how to will def abuse it on way or another

[@graviton763]

🐸🐸 ⚽

[@naplzt4k]

They're mostly trash players who can't do anything in pvp without synced sets and bombs...if zos ever ends HoT stacking in cyro bgs would be nothing

[@laoch5658]

Someone died to a balgroup haha

[@naplzt4k]

@@laoch5658 ofc I have that's all I encounter most of the time in gh these days but once 1 of the key players dies they all fall like dominos because most of them can't survive without 6 resto staves shoved up their ahh

[@blkhandsavage]

Just lings and pro lings 😂😂😂😂.....nah g vid! Play the game how you like

[@ThorsShadow]

I got this in my recommendations. Don't play ESO. Wtf is a "ballgroup"?

[@Degonyte]

I don't control the algorithm, man.

[@thebikergirluk559]

watch the video and find out :D

[@GHKiwi]

The eternal battle of optimized group play and the bads that cry about it. You see it in any game where you can do group pvp. Calling a strat meta (in a derogatory way), easy, skill less and more is always, and will always be, an indicator of poor skill and close mindedness. Coordination with multiple other players takes much more skill than pressing buttons alone.

[@GHKiwi]

@@BBRocker75 Are they shitting on everyone else ? Yes. Do they need good coordination and communication ? Yes. Do they craft their builds and comp to work together in the most effective way available ? Yes. Then it's optimized group play, doesn't mattter what you think it should be, facts talk more than your subjective opinion. Doesn't matter what they use, if it's OP or you personally dislike it. If that specific spell/combo gets removed they will use something else and you will cry about it too. As I wrote earlier, people crying about meta are always closeminded or absolutely horrible at the game and sometimes both.

[@laoch5658]

Imagine grouping in a group pvp zone. If you solo pvp youre against the true spirit of the pvp zone

[@PracticedPotatoPurloiner]

Probably the best video I've seen talking about the motivations for having a ballgroup instead of "hurr durr ballgroup bad because"