Denimgate | Dojo Talks

[@oktaydurukan6881]

Great take, Jesse, regarding how this is mainly about Magnus's ego while he is navigating the tail end of his reign and apparent dificulties finding and sustaining motivation. The only word I would add to that is , I think Magnus is at times extremely impulsive, that's part of his character, or a very obvious aspect of his current mental health setup. I think the jeans incident happens, against the backdrop of Magnus at the tail end of his supremacy and motivation for chess, but what explains his extreme response is he just lost control on his emotions. He couldn't stop escalating the confrontation. He just snapped. And that's also exactly what happened at Sinquefield Cup after his loss to Hans.

[@阿暉Fred83]

As a classical musician, I am very used to following dress code even if it doesn't really affect the actual performance. It is not about whether people want to play chess or what chess should be. The rule is there and Magnus should have followed. In some other professions, traditional dress code is also strictly enforced. It is not a matter of personal preference. Magnus is a veteran and should be more than capable of handling this situation. Although I think fide shouldn't unpair him in the upcoming round for a rather trivial issue, I have little mercy regarding Magnus. He publicly admitted that he didn't care much. And he has had a long history of showing up late. He doesn't show enough respect to opponents and the organizers on a regular basis.

[@chesscomdpruess]

It seems he showed up late to his first blitz game today. To me that is a matter of respect for your opponent, which I value very highly. Of course there could be a reason, like maybe officials are triple-checking your pants, but if it is indeed a pattern as you suggest, that doesn’t seem right to me.

[@lush1us]

As a classical musician I think you're comparing apples and oranges. The players are not putting up a show for us but competing. Even if 'concerto' as a word meant a sort of competition that lost it's meaning centuries ago

[@syonnain]

@@chesscomdpruess The reason Magnus was late was that he was buying new jeans (G Star Raw) after getting re-signed with them. He says so in his latest FIDE interview, no joke.

[@gusramirez5647]

​@@lush1usit definitely is a show. just also a competition. most sports have dress codes as well that are strictly followed because they want to cultivate an image

[@lush1us]

@@gusramirez5647 the game is the show. most sports that have a rigorous dress code is for practical reasons like team colors. some do for tradition, like wimbledon but that is a tournament not the whole sport. i do think that if the rule is there it should have some form of repercussion but nothing more than fines imo. i also think the rule is stupid and belongs to the last century

[@pacov.8300]

Apparently FIDE IS willing to change more than the dresscode rules for Magnus. Who knows, maybe they do let him play 2. Nf3 + Nxe5 in one move next time.

[@renato.albuquerque]

Some people get pissed off, but Jesse is right about Magnus. His decision to move away from classical chess is in part due to the fact that he knows his dominance is weakening (which happens to every champion eventually, nobody lasts forever). Also, this whole FIDE/Magnus/Freestyle conflict will fade away when a new dominant world champion takes Magnus shoes. It's just a matter of time.

[@kjell-olavmossestad5401]

How is his dominance weakening? Hasnt he won almost every tournament he has participated in this year ?

[@RekhadebDae]

​@@kjell-olavmossestad5401 The only classical tournament he won was Norway chess where after each drawn game there was armageddon games as tie break points....but one thing that proves Jesse's point is that when he won the individual bronze in top board in olympiad he didn't show up in the closing ceremony to collect the medal because gukesh and nodirbek perfomed far better than him and were getting gold and silver respectively.

[@SR-fs2fd]

​@@RekhadebDaenah that's just Magnus. He wouldn't have stayed to collect the gold had he won it. He's past that. If you have followed chess for a few years you'll have seen it coming. So that doesn't validate nor invalidate Jesse's point.

[@NotQuiteFirst]

It's a reasonable take, but arguably you're putting the cart before the horse, and that his dominance is slipping (which it surely is) _because_ he cares less about it, not that he is moving away from it because he is weakening. It seems to me that the only thing keeping him from still being number 1 at classical is his motivation, not that he's actually got too old and is losing strength.

[@renato.albuquerque]

@NotQuiteFirst I disagree with you. Chess is hard these days. You see guys who used to be top 10 not long ago, struggling to stay in the top 20. Guys like Giri, MVL, Ding. Magnus lost 34 rating points since Jan 2022. And I bet he would've lost more than that if he was actually playing classical chess regularly. The funny thing is that he knows that. People seem to believe that he doesn't care at all, but being the number 1 ranked player in the world gives you a lot of power, influence, and attention he wouldn't have otherwise.

[@syonnain]

Top players signed a four year legal agreement with FIDE they would not be playing in another World Championship cycle. Funny how none of them actually address this. How is FIDE reminding them of this a threat? Chesscom has forced players to play just on their site in contracts too. FIDE can easily schedule their WC cycle events to clash with Buettner's as well, and make the players choose. Again, fair. Magnus would be left with just the older guys who see the 2 years of milking Freestyle sponsors more profitable than playing in the FIDE WC cycle...

[@chesscomdpruess]

Good points!

[@FahimHoq]

awesome podcast, now I am looking forward to the next episode discussing the shared trophy situation.

[@ChessDojo]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!

[@seop1721]

I gave up chess for 20 years because I thought it was dead. I now see Chess960 as key to maintaining classical chess while opening up chess at the top. Classical Chess is like the training wheels for top Freestyle. I now LOVE Freestyle, and partly because it makes classical chess even more meaningful. You can play classical forever, but also it gives you the skills for Freestyle. I think Freestyle makes chess healthier overall, and ends the crisis of opening theory at the very top. Yet classical openings give structural templates for Freestyle ideas. It’s all good to me. :-)

[@wreynolds1995]

So wait, you gave up chess for 20 years because you thought it was dead; now, more people are playing (non-freestyle) chess than ever; and your conclusion is still that it's dead? It's not possible that you were just wrong 20 years ago, that chess has been alive this whole time and is still alive?

[@seop1721]

@ I didn’t say it was dead now, or that I was right, but even Magnus and others agree it has problems. Draw death etc. As did Capablanca, Fischer, etc. The popularity is a different issue. Like with many GMs, the problems were making it too limiting. This was, and is, a fairly open view. The problem hasn’t gone away. The question is how seriously one views the problem.

[@Heroball299]

Freestyle chess world championship will be so complicated. The fans won't understand it. The openings are one of the main things fans enjoy watching. It's their way in to understanding the game.

[@seop1721]

My understanding is they wanted Freestyle to be a world championship, Fide said no, and Magnus accepted. I didn’t get the impression that Magnus and Freestyle ‘will’ go ahead anyway and call it a World Championship.

[@B88-h6n]

@11:11 I actually think that if Magnus was leading, not sure if the arbitrator would have dared to call his smart jeans a gross dressing code violation

[@seop1721]

I think Freestyle Chess released a statement, a quote from Magnus, saying it was a ‘fundamentally better game’. Not exactly the real chess. Magnus said the same thing to Levi ‘Jeans’ Rozman too. I understand Magnus’s views on Freestyle. I largely agree, now, though I see classical chess as a necessary training ground for Freestyle. So it’s a win-win for me.

[@seop1721]

Strictly speaking, Freestyle contains the classical position (as one of the 960), so it could be seen as a greater game, but inclusive of ‘legacy chess’.

[@yolooo5081]

Even the blitz tournament is hard to follow since things happen so fast. You don't want something so slow like classical, but blitz is also way too fast. Especially hard when multiple matches happen at the same time.

[@j-mo3129]

Freestyle and Fischer. What is the difference? Is the time increments handled differently?

[@keithwald5349]

Most champs in most sports have huge egos and, like all humans, at least _some_ insecurities deep down - in spite of their well justified confidence. Way back in the day, didn't world champs use the burden of the prize fund to perhaps fend off challengers sometimes? Probably this kind of drama will always occur. It's of course reasonable to try to set up structures to minimize it, or at least not exaccerbate it, but here we are.

[@BrajeshKumar-hm9sw]

I think I Mostly agree with jesse point here.

[@felbas4224]

Allow me to disagree Kostia when you say that the dress code is the kind of rule that is interpretative and we should be lenient with Magnus. I actually think we should be more strict with the dress code for Magnus : he is the face of chess, half the pictures taken in the event will have his face (and pants) on it. If you think it's a disgrace that some of those contains jeans (which is of course disputable), it's more important to ensure Magnus doesn't wear jeans, than the 200th seed.

[@seop1721]

The soft power is definitely a factor. And football clubs being bought is known to be soft power.

[@TheBigGuppy]

I’m waiting for someone to publish the Chess 960 MCO. An Opening Reference for all 960 Starting Positions. LOL. If I had to wear a suit and tie to play chess in 1978 then nobody should wear jeans. 😊 Posted for the algorithm.

[@NotAllWhoWanderAreLost641]

Boomer much

[@mirko9072]

Do Shogi and Xiangqi also have their "960" versions?

[@Leavenfish]

Naka and Magnus have both basically abandoned Standard Chess as their pursuit...for them, it's a way of continuing to rake in $$ by pushing wood until they fully want to hang it up. Every other Super GM...hey, they want some of that yummy $$$$ and they will go as long as the $$$$ flows into 'Freestyle'. Always 'follow the money'.

[@B-fq7ff]

42:41 Kostya is so proud of himself for that joke 😆

[@southwesthotmustard7762]

How have you guys not dropped “touched my coconuts” merch?

[@chesscomdpruess]

Just not very focused on merch. We think about it once every ~2 years.

[@penguinb4u]

Time to upload part 3

[@JD-td8kl]

Here we go!

[@avonab3847]

I thought I liked the idea of Fischerrandom until I played a Fischerrandom tournament and missed my openings. Openings are a great way of getting the kind of positions you like! I learned to play the French with videos from Jesse, and with a switch to Firscherrandom I would never get a French again :( Also without the Najdorf and King's Indian would Kasparov be Kasparov, and Fischer be Fischer? Would Tal be Tal? It seems quite hard to me to invent a 'Sicilian' from a random starting positions with the clock ticking. Also without openings how do we talk about players and their style, and their place in history? Without openings chess history would probably be a lot 'thinner'.

[@haydenn680]

I would love to see David make a long (20mins or so) video reviewing this Carlson Svidler 960 game. I want to like 960 but its still more mysterious than the Poisoned Pawn Najdorf. Please let me never look at an opening again.

[@VeggieRice]

Fisher Random is what it is called. The Chess960 thing is an attempt to distance proponents of it from the whacky opinions & antisemitism of the Jewish player Bobby Fisher.

[@chesscomdpruess]

If you can find me the game, I’ll make a video on it :-)

[@haydenn680]

@ do you remember what year or so this was from? I have never seen it I just heard you talk about it. Looking now

[@chesscomdpruess]

@@haydenn680 I’m thinking maybe 2019, as I found an article about Svid qualifying for the world champs that year.

[@kwhd559]

Except for Jesse, you guys are absolutely ridiculous on this issue. What is so hard to understand about a dress code that says - NO JEANS - A dress code, mind you, that was known and agreed to by the players before the event. As for Magnus, he has never paid much attention to rules. In his mind, the rules don't really apply to him, and besides the jeans thing, he is always seen scrambling and late to the board with some lame excuse. To revisit the case of the Armenian girl and her 'stylish' brand-name shoes, it should be stressed that a dress code has nothing to do with being 'stylish'. It is more about establishing and following a consistent set of uniform standards. For example, some restaurants require you to wear a jacket, and it does not matter how spiffy you think you look, the dress code requires a jacket. Magnus Carlsen was fined a nominal fee in an earlier round for the same breach, which obviously had little impact on someone of his means. He was then given more than enough time to change before the next round, but intentionally chose not to and suffered the consequences. The 'what-about-ism' argument that someone on board 892 was also wearing jeans is not a defense, and if he thought it was he should have filed an appeal. On the surface, this whole fiasco may look petty to outsiders, but in reality, Carlsen forced the Arbiter's hand.

[@mrmvp2974]

I think Freestyle Chess is interesting and should be explored but I'm not sure shifting the actual world championship to Freestyle chess is the best thing for chess overall. For the vast majority of players, normal chess is still very interesting, openings are cool, and the benefits that Freestyle chess offers is not apparent. Unless somehow you can convince pretty much all normal chess players (not GMs and elite players) that they should play Freestyle chess, you will end up in a situation where the top players are essentially playing a different game than normal players. I'm not sure this will work for a game where pretty much everyone who watches events also plays the game. How can a top player playing Freestyle chess call themselves the best chess player in the world when he/she's won a world championship playing essentially a different game (at least 1/3rd different) than the vast majority of the population. How will ratings work? Do your normal chess ratings transfer to freestyle chess for you to enter the top 20? At what point do you get "promoted" to Freestyle chess? Maybe this system can work, but I think it's rife with challenges for not that much benefit. Why even experiment with something this drastic if the chess that we do have is growing well (which I believe it is)? Also, I don't think it would be good for the growth of chess. I think most people who get into chess don't become fans of watching chess immediately after learning about it. You're exposed to chess through culture, family, environment, maybe you play a little bit, and then sometime down the line, you start watching it as well. But if you're watching top-level chess for the first time and see that it's drastically different than the game you're exposed to/play, wouldn't it turn new people off from watching? For me, who got into chess from watching the 2022 Candidates, I don't know if I would have continued watching if it was this different. Maybe I'm in the minority. But even if I am, and there's a small percentage of prospective new viewers who would be turned off, I don't think Freestyle chess is the best thing for regular top-level chess. The benefits it offers in return is just too small since its just for the top players. But again this is just speculation. If all top players put their foot down and say Freestyle chess is the only thing we'll play, it might be what top-level chess turns into and I'm sure people will watch. First, I just don't think it's the best thing for chess overall. Second, I don't think it will happen. This Freestyle movement has mostly come from the older players (Lev, Hikaru, Magnus) who are tired of opening work, etc. Not the younger generation (Gukesh, Pragg, Nodirbek, etc.). Will be interesting to see what happens.

[@ultrainstinctshaggy669]

Now I want Jesse to dress as a Wookie for his next tournament and update us on it

[@haydenn680]

Starting now but I HOPE you guys watched Hikaru's interview with Jon Ludwig Hammer and Fiona Steil-Antoni where he was dropping some BOMBS about the drama behind the scenes. That could be a dojo talks in and of itself.

[@chesscomdpruess]

I watched a good chunk of it; it was informative!

[@naresh_biswas239]

MAGNUS IS PLAYING 4D CHESS WITH FIDE..

[@aaronadams7831]

Was the dress code policy developed with player representation? I believe it was. If a player refuses to change even after being fined, what other measures are available to the arbiter?

[@misterkefir]

Sad days for chess. If you like things more serious that is. If not? Well.. I guess you're having fun then. I know I'm not. I can smell some sort of split coming sooner or later. Which is never good.

[@TheChessNeck]

Exactly the video I needed hahaha

[@michaelf8221]

Dang why is the comments section full of Jesse haters?

[@sanyamkalra4]

Magnus is not at the top 😅 he will win the blitz it’s ok. One tournament really does not mean he is not on top.

[@misterkefir]

This whole thing was an absolute clown fiesta. Just embarrassing from all sides, really.

[@bestieboots]

You can be well kept and respectful in a potato sack. I hate dress codes.

[@misterkefir]

Especially the completely nonsensical ones.

[@shrihas62]

Let players come naked. That will be no dress code and they will have bigger viewership!!!

[@lazydetective4774]

Are normal people even allowed to withdraw from the tournament on day 3, without severe punishment. Magnus is disrepectful for the other players, now as well as after the Niemann incident. Those who had already meet magnus could see the worst opponents not having to face Magnus. And the blitz sharing ? I look forward to an episode regarding this. Making up his own rules. Have can they just give in. Should advocate for other rules before the tournament instead. Such a child.

[@Grobarinho7]

I propose to call it 1/960th chess instead of legacy chess to indicate its inferiority 😎

[@jordanalford2825]

I love Jesse but I feel like his bias towards traditional chess isn’t allowing him to see both sides of this situation clearly.

[@B-fq7ff]

would you care to enlighten us about what he missed?

[@jordanalford2825]

@ I don’t think he’s being really fair to Magnus simply because he disagrees with his stance on the future of chess. Lumping him in with Garry and Bobby is just lazy analysis. Yes there are similarities to the situations but I don’t believe Magnus is acting out of just blind arrogance and I don’t believe that he’s declining in any way. I think he and several other top players just genuinely are tired of the growing work load of opening prep needed for just basic traditional chess events now. Lord of them have commented on how they enjoy the challenge of 960 and being free of that burden and would like to explore it more. It’s almost like he sees this as a treat to Traditional chess which he loves so much and just wants to tear it down and discredit it. He did make some good points about the sustainability of Freestyle Chess in the future. Ultimately I think Kostya and David were much more fair and measured in their takes.

[@financeunsw9592]

He just WON the game (against Tari) and was +2 for the tournament

[@SteWweAwesome99]

He was objectively playing terribly, he was losing against Dardha too, he was +2 but played low rated guys, he wasn't playing the guys leading.

[@davidblue819]

How can you have the real world championship, with history and drama and madness and a touch of death, if you are going cancel culture on your crazy but great founder? It makes no sense and there is no dramatic hook for the public. FIDE is a joke but Magnus is a joke too. They all want to wipe out the name of the guy who created what this is. How can you be the plucky rebel wen you want to be the next to erase the name of the inconvenient creator of what you are doing?

[@nadavfranckovich2811]

Jesse is right

[@j-mo3129]

I think Jesse is right about Magnus. He just doesn't want to work at chess and he doesn't like the results of his lack of training. Many different slants on the situation were discussed that I never considered. Great discussion, made me think.

[@Extirpo]

Honestly Jessie is overly critical on Magnus. This is not black or white but..

[@eudesgeoffroy8416]

FIDE has made a fool of itself once again.

[@VeggieRice]

You seem confused, bud. Magnus agreed to attend, knowing full well the dress code. Don't accept, don't participate if you know you're intentionally trying to snub the rules & make a big stink. He used it as a publicity stunt for his Fisher Random thing he's trying to get off the ground.

[@zxien1]

@@VeggieRice You seem confused as the rule stated "jeans are GENERALLY not allowed." meaning there was room for debate. Magnus, showed up in the nicest possible attire featuring jeans and was hit with a punishment which didn't fit the "crime" that was not even stated as an absolute. For reference an illegal move is usually a minute off the clock; meanwhile, wearing jeans means forfeiting a round though even when the rule doesn't explicitly state otherwise in black and white? Magnus agreed to pay the fine, and change the next day when he could talk to the president of fide to clear any confusion regarding the rule. Instead, the arbiter didn't like that and went full dictator on a guy for no reason. The point of the dress code, which was ambiguous to begin with, is to look presentable to sponsors which he was very much presentable. The irony is magnus was more presentable than the fide president himself whom also wore jeans when he chose to comment on the whole thing (he was apparently asleep during the "altercation").

[@Eric-g2o]

I feel that Magnus is having personal issues, both related and unrelated to chess, and he's just looking for reasons to create controversy and stir the pot.

[@peterfredriksson1857]

Why not change pants if there is a rule and if important fight the rule afterwards? I surely would do that.

[@TheBigGuppy]

One factor MAY be that the tournament site wasn’t a hotel and Magnus would have left the tourney site to change so he said F it. He wasn’t playing his best anyway. … and maybe this was not a factor either.

[@paulmayne345]

Jesse is always coming with these silly hot takes. It’s either him being controversial just for clicks and view OR it’s another real life example of the studies showing that being good at chess having no relation to intelligence. Hopefully for Jesse it’s just him being controversial.

[@kjell-olavmossestad5401]

Yep. First time I have ever watched this deuche.. but I bet if I find videos from way back in the past, this Jesse probably say that Magnus is on the decline there too... Just a bitter jealous American

[@moderator8289]

woody harrelson hi

[@TheOldGuy2000]

Kraai, you totally dont get it. I understand you put in tons of effort getting your GM status and if Magnus see things evolve his way, your effort will be made irrelevant. But listen to yourself... three players Fisher, Kasparov, and Magnus (the highest rated chess player... EVEN CLASSICAL) all have come to a conclusion that the FIDE World championship is not a good future for chess. It's amazing the hubris that you have to come up with your twisted logic defending FIDE here. What cred do you bring to this discussion?

[@KirkDAAndersonFitness]

I agree with you 100%

[@peterfredriksson1857]

I will NOT watch a WCShip Freestyle now more than ever. 😎

[@seop1721]

I will. I can’t wait.

[@AntonStachSZN]

How does Fide own the World Championship?

[@chesscomdpruess]

They don’t intrinsically, but they say they do. Which is how a lot of things exist. It depends largely on whether people believe what is said.

[@curio78]

Does Jesse not been keeping track? Magnus has won every chess event he has participated in 2024. so what he is talking about .

[@ChessDojo]

def didn't win the rapid

[@HansHenrikBay]

@@ChessDojo But he is still with distance the best player on the planet

[@sachinkumar-rk9df]

@@HansHenrikBay No, he is not. Winning online tournaments is not the same as winning Wijk aan zee. Magnus has won only chesscoom events this year

[@kjell-olavmossestad5401]

​@@ChessDojobe professional, and answer with more depth than that. The guy said Magnus has won almost everything in 2024, and you just focuses on this ONE event? Seems like you are alittle jealous of Magnus's achievements.. is it because he is not American?

[@criccode2993]

Did not win gold in olympiad

[@HansHenrikBay]

Gukesh prefers Chess960 over classical ! Jesse is as always, wrong. Comparing the lunatic Fischer with Carlsen. Carlsen strugled with bad form. And Hikaru and Magnus was very tired of FIDE ( Sutovsky) . But Magnus will come back in Rapid and Blittz and crush everybody

[@mikem668]

Magnus IS at the top. Now and historically. Classical chess at the top level is boring. It's become a memory test. Someday there will be an idiot savant who can perfectly memorize engine lines. While chess has many character building aspects, intellectual and otherwise, Jesse's mano a mano takes are getting old. He might be a GM, but if he got into a "metaphysical" match against Magnus he'd get the snot beaten out of him and cry like a baby. He's not even close to the same class and it's irrelevant how much better he is than I am. Currently he's under 2400 FIDE. I've had non-GM friends with higher FIDE ratings. Maurice Ashley has the same problem, with his constant talk about beating people up. While I agree that mental toughness is important in life, chess doesn't need thugs - actual or metaphorical. Ironically, many of the chess players I knew in school were nerds or got pushed around by bullies. Chess was a retreat, where the content of your mind was what mattered.

[@kjell-olavmossestad5401]

This Jesse is obviously not a big fan of Magnus, and is alittle bitter about Magnus being the best still..