FIDE vs. Freestyle Chess Drama | Dojo Talks

[@ChessDojo]

Btw! This episode was recorded a few days ago, before yesterday's "jeansgate" w/ Magnus, which we'll be doing an episode on soon. Thanks for watching!

[@siddharththakkar2523]

Can’t wait for jeansgate 😂

[@NotQuiteFirst]

@@siddharththakkar2523 You can almost guarantee that they will have recorded the jeansgate episode before today's development that Magnus is now back at the blitz WC wearing jeans, and FIDE allow jeans. I like this channel, but for a pod which is literally just them talking and requires virtually no post-processing, it's amazing how there's usually a long lag between recording and posting it

[@cricketqi4723]

India is now a massive market for chess consumption and revenue and at least as of now the fidelity of the Indian chess fan is firmly with FIDE events, specifically classical. Almost no one in India watches or cares for freestyle chess. Incidentally, in India the views for rapid/blitz WC so far have been small (in thousands), while views for candidates, Olympiad and WCC were colossal (in millions).

[@magikarp653]

That's because they are "Indian chess" fan and not Indian "chess fan".

[@marcususa]

I like how Kostya and David have their names swapped. Was this an attempt at "Freestyle KZbin"?

[@FahimHoq]

Yeah 🤣

[@andic698]

I really dont care about Chess 960, at my club they try run a trounament series once per month and only a handful of people showed up so it was cancelled again. That´s not the future of chess in my opinion.

[@JD-td8kl]

Personally zero interest in Random chess regardless of who is playing. Edit - I think this is largely because I still find Chess itself so thoroughly interesting. It is a deep mine still requiring some excavation. Scrubs such as myself still have a tremendous amount to learn about Chess and hence it will maintain its mystique. Maybe the people who are most interested in Random are the top GMs who are a tad worn out by standard Chess and want something new? Could be wrong, but just a thought.

[@mikem668]

At the top level, chess has partly become a spelling bee. That's not a good thing because the trend is that chess is becoming a spelling bee. Carried to the ultimate extreme, we all have the answers to the test. We just have to remember them. Yawn. Ultimately chess is a calculation. Unlike other activities like painting a picture or playing guitar. Every competition is not interesting. Or worth participating in.

[@wreynolds1995]

From a spectator's perspective - my own - the "spelling bee" aspect is part of what keeps me engaged. Chess is hard! Being able to look at the board and have some understanding of what's going on is really helpful for the viewer. With Freestyle, I have no context. The only way I can try to understand what's going on is to really knuckle down and start thinking quite hard about the position. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but for me, that makes it almost unwatchable as a sporting event. People don't watch sports to push themselves; the whole point is that the players push themselves and we get to relax and watch them instead of doing the work ourselves. Not only that, the fact that the opening position changes every game means I have no reason to commit such effort to understanding the position. If I was playing the game, then sure, I would have a reason to commit the effort; but as a spectator, I pick up almost nothing useful to me by bashing my head against the brick wall of a literally random chess position. It has almost as little draw as those silly "mate in 1" constructions with 30 pieces on the board: perhaps a fun distraction in the right circumstance, but I usually have better things to think about.

[@Yorg.7]

I think the same. Classical chess will last me a lifetime. However, I understand why super GMs might want to transition, and that’s something I’d also love to witness. At least we are living in times where we can appreciate these changes in the world of chess, it's truly a privilege to experience this era.

[@RR-gm1fp]

Well the World Rapid 2024 was excellent viewing. Frankly I find the 'endless' elite round robins a bit boring, seen half a dozen seen them all!

[@japanijoota6190]

the whole intention of chess is to determine analysis skills. But in normal chess now its more about memory and less about analysis skills, especially in classical chess. In gukesh vs ding almost all matches ended up in a draw. Sooo boring.

[@Zwellop]

25:15 I totally agree with this point of scarcity creating interest. It makes it more special and exclusive

[@davidpelletier5011]

Set the rapid & blitz championships on alternate years from the classical championship

[@betsychristina3509]

As a new spectator of chess who knows nothing about the game and can't understand much without the evaluation bars or commentary i don't like blitz or rapid much because there are so many games happening together and we can't see it all with the bars in the live commentary. Many times i want them to comment on a game of my favorite player but it would be magnus or some big players who get the screen time. At some point i decided classical is nice to see as i can take my time to really understand the game when discussed. I don't really care for the freestyle or superfast chess because its not watchable for someone new like me. Its just my personal take.

[@surian9286]

completely agree as i am new to the game as well

[@L33TTechReviewer]

I found the rapid extremely interesting and captivated my attention entirely.

[@scottstewart4798]

Classical chess commentary in the background while I play some blitz - heaven

[@Murphy1938]

I am agnostic as to whether chess 960 should some day replace classical chess. But what I will absolutely never get behind is a 'world championship' run by a for-profit corporation backed by venture capital and the Saudi regime. FIDE for all its many flaws is a recognised international governing body affiliated to the IOC, with 200 member federations, so there is at least the possibility of accountability and of an obligation to the long-term good of the game. An entity like 'Freestyle' is only responsible to its investors.

[@Murphy1938]

And just as a matter of personal taste I hate all the gimmicks like the shirtless photo-shoots, the coloured blazers, the stuff about heart-rate monitors. This stuff is embarrassing, it's beneath the dignity of the players

[@MadaraUchiha-iu3ld]

Absolutely, I agree with you 100%.

[@NotQuiteFirst]

Regarding popularity of 960 with "the public": it's worth bearing in mind a feature of basically any mainstream popular sport, which is that only a small fraction of the audience actually play the sport themselves. Tennis/football/Golf/Olympic diving etc - are watched by many for entertainment but played by relatively few. With chess it's the other way round: most viewers are people who play chess. For the non-chess-playing layman, there isn't any real difference between standard and 960. If anything, 960 is probably more relatable to the layman, as the player is actually doing what the viewer thinks he should be doing (looking at a new position and calculating the next move) rather than what the player is often doing in standard openings (recalling lines memorised from a super-computer). The cries of _"960 will never catch on, when I watch chess I want to understand the opening"_ are missing the point. This is something said by _players._ Ultimately, the target for wider viewership is people who _do not play,_ as that's the vast majority of the population, and to them, 960 and standard openings look much the same.

[@KirkDAAndersonFitness]

Good point

[@FahimHoq]

Excellent point

[@MadaraUchiha-iu3ld]

That is true. But the real reason 960 won't catch on is that it has zero grassroots popularity. If players are not interested then they cannot make other non-players interested, despite it making no difference to the spectator with no opening knowledge. Kids dont learn & play this variant, there are no local-level tournaments. I have more chances to invite a random person on the street to play a game of chess over this variant. Simply put the variant has no base outside the chess community. This alone will stunt the viewership this freestyle tour will get. Let's also not forget this tour also has majorly invitational spots, so it's not even a true championship, at least initially. I doubt this tour will gain traction in the general sports scene anywhere. It just feels like a scheme for elite players to form a fancy club event and burn billionaire money. Once the billionaire is bored, the freestyle thing crashes. I really don't see how it will sustain itself long term.

[@Minerva6699]

Jesse is wrong about fans not caring about FIDE world rapid and blitz

[@misterkefir]

I cared much more before they've changed open section rapid tournament lenght from 15 to 13 rounds (for no reason, since it still lasts three days..) and introduced that awful mixed format for the blitz portion.. it's still a cool tournament thanks to so many amazing players participating but I enjoy following it much less now. Which is a bummer.

[@DanRaj-o8y]

Grandmasters often seem to have a warped view about what attracts audiences for chess games. It's interesting.

[@KirkDAAndersonFitness]

I agree.

[@michaelf8221]

I tried to care this year... Games were just uninteresting because blunders are too prevalent.

[@SharatS]

I think fans definitely care less than the classical world championship. For me, personally it's because there is a lack of weight to these tournaments. The Rapid World Champion is selected just based on their performance on 3 days. It feels just like any other random rapid tournament. Compare that to the Classical one, where players have to struggle all year to get into the Candidates, fighting for a few spots, then they have to win the Candidates, then they have to win in a head to head match against the World Champion. That gives it a lot more weight.

[@sagnikbarman6616]

I'm from India and let me tell you, we do care about Magnus, but we will still watch even if he doesn't play, because we're excited about Arjun, Gukesh, Prag, Humpy, Harika, Divya Deshmukh, Vantika Agarwal.🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[@aaronwilson6611]

Chess 960 is all well and good for the professional level players to get their little jolt of differentiation. But the avg player and club player only wants tot improve at classical chess and only has opportunities to improve at and play classical chess. No one hosts chess 960 events for amateurs that I know of.

[@janmaarten6250]

No amateur cares much about freestyle chess. Only titled players who want to get rid of opening theory do. Maybe it’s fun to watch now and then, but the classical position is difficult enough for non-titled players. How many amateur freestyle tournaments are there anyway?

[@mirko9072]

Why should titled players, who have lots of experience and deep openings knowledge, ditch standard chess for 960?

[@Striker-xx5cu]

​@@mirko9072because they claim that its getting stale. Imo they just dont want to put effort in opening prep anymore.

[@ForeverSunnyYoutube]

Freestyle chess is a fun side piece, but it ends there. Magnus is getting older and whatever format he thinks maximizes his edge over the competitions is what he likes the most. That is the only thing he cares about. Magnus Carlsen would have no passion for chess960 if he was the 10th best chess960 player in the world. If we look at it from a chess as a spectator sport perspective I don't think Freestyle Chess is better for casual viewership or enthusiast viewership. If that is a fact(idk if it is), what are we even discussing here? Trying to make it more than a sidepiece is then just the whim of a few top players. Chess960 is just too hard to appreciate, but I like the idea of having a tour where you eliminate most positions and have a rotating pool of say 5-10 nice positions every year. Would make this type of tournament way more viewer friendly and after every season you swap out for different 5-10 positions to keep the pros on their toes.

[@jodya.vonwahl2413]

Regarding the ChessCom rapid rating... I only play 60 min games but it's still considered "rapid" . They could easily separate the 30 and 60 min time controls into a classical rating as LiChess does but they don't.

[@JD-td8kl]

By 60 min games, do you mean the 30 Rapid, or 60 mins each player?

[@pacov.8300]

Yeah, it shouldn't take a lot of effort to install a classical raiting...

[@lassesonne3655]

16:14 love it when Jesse talks about the World Chess Championship and death.

[@Drmarcusforum]

I am a chess fan/beginner. I would never watch chess960 because regular chess is very difficult to understand, whereas chess960 is impossible to understand. Watching chess960 is like watching random dots moving on a screen.

[@SBP21212]

No new tournament can take over Classical chess..old is gold..even Magnus is known for his world championship in classical chess..new formats are good for a change but no one can replace classical.

[@BrajeshKumar-hm9sw]

I agree with jesse point. Fischer random/9Lx/freestyle stuff does not interest many people. But I am also happy that it provides opportunity for player to earn money. Maybe freestyle can come as tournament rather than their random championship. Also, isn't that weird that some German guy. Who most people don't know about 2 years back. Now claiming to run world Championship.

[@vassiliosavlonitis5813]

May I say that there is a reason the chess pieces are placed in specific squares at the start of the game. They do not only look beautiful and symmetrical but they also have their best potential for development. What a great combination of beauty and functionality!

[@davidblue819]

It's Fischer Random. Any organization that wants to claim the right to administer it must respect the name.

[@j-mo3129]

There is a core group of people with enough interest to actually follow any chess event. You should probably cater to those fans. So what do they want? I did not watch any of the recent blitz. It is just to fast for me to get an idea of what is happening and to fast for any commentator to have time to explain the position. I really think the commentators are more important than the players.

[@mirko9072]

Recently there has been the rapid WC, which is quite slower than blitz.

[@jermokoye]

i love you jesse.....but youre wrong about rapid/blitz. its ALL the drama from a long game compressed into 10-30 minutes. time become a major character, and there is nothing in chess more thrilling than someone like alireza finding a winning sac with 2 seconds on the clock. the pacing, the blunders and brilliancies...its chess but without the acute precision that unfortunately makes long formats boring and drawish. no one can beat hikaru with 1.a4 in classical. in rapid or blitz, brandon jacobson CAN. anything can happen...that makes appeal is greater than classical chess. i love both speed and classical chess for the record and cant wait to watch tata steel with you guys and no eval....but yeah jesse, cant agree with you on this one. rapid and blitz is amazing and will catch on more and more in the coming years

[@Youdoyouyeah]

Would just point out that Arkady is not the problem here as suggested in the thumbnail. It’s Emil.

[@seop1721]

I love Chess960.

[@TheBigGuppy]

Bughouse WCC with 2 drink minimum would be epic.

[@lotohi-qn2yv]

Chess960 should have been marketed as "Pro Chess," similar to how pool or checkers have professional variations. The public would likely understand this distinction, understanding that chess can be memorized and (thus too easy) For example, a moderate GM could hold their own against Magnus for several moves with their chosen opening. (I understand easy might be an exaggeration but so many players can hold a draw because of memorization) As for The complain that it's hard to follow, that the game is too bizarre. This is largely written by people who write articles or analyze games we are not the common viewer. It’s worth noting that most players are rated below 900. After just a few moves, they’re already out of opening theory. Chess960 isn’t as foreign to them as it is to us. Or rather it's just as far and as regular chess after a move or two.

[@francoispitre6292]

Let's call it Fischer Freestyle !

[@allin8795]

world rapid and blitz is way more interesting and watchable to the common fan, I understand this from a masters view but this isn't the common fan!

[@TheOldGuy2000]

I think anyone who is not getting on board moving chess from current classical format to a format involving games finishing up in 30 to 60 minute will be a dinosaur in the coming years. Classical chess is never going to have general mainstream average person popularity. The format is too long and there are too many draws. I think Magnus understands that and he sees a path to orders of magnitude more fans and people following chess.

[@jodya.vonwahl2413]

Question, do you guys think there will come a time when online ratings become more relevant than OTB ratings? The masses already care more about their ChessCom rating because it's more assessable. But could it take over the top level of Chess?

[@peterfredriksson1857]

Norway TV (NRK 2 / NRK SPORT ) are sending the rapid and blitz event live it seems, I think for most of the evening. Not so fun now without Magnus... 😬

[@lotohi-qn2yv]

This topic makes some of you come across as condescending. "I don’t need wins or losses; I enjoy the boring, identical games because I can appreciate the beauty, etc." Of course, you don’t agree with this viewpoint. You rated modern chess championships poorly because, in your words, they were non-decisive and lacked opportunities for players to showcase their skills. But the argument is absurd. Imagine how much better chess would be if players didn’t have to spend 35-40% of their careers memorizing opening theory. Think about how much stronger their middle and endgame skills could be. Consider how many talented players without perfect memories might rise to the top. How many more brilliant combos could we have seen, how many great games we missed. Not to mention the fact that playing a drill line from both sides for half the moves leads to dry games has everybody knows. All for what? 14 draws in a world championship?Just so you can pontificate about history or outplay someone who didn’t memorize the same long line? If people believe the greatest chess player in the world was the one who was able to play chess without memorized opened lines The 960 event would be the most prestigious event In BJJ the ADCC competition is considered the most important. The rules don't match most other competitions from the ruling bodies. But most people consider you the greatest grappler if you competed those rules and won

[@Padf007]

Feel Magnus is ahead of time on this. Most viewers find it hard to understand normal chess and dont even explore 5% of its complexity, history, context etc. Something like Takex3 came on the scene just now. Serious chess following at scale is still some time in future.

[@vincentvangogh8092]

Magnus just money greedy

[@sarterus]

Massive interest in 960/freestyle, opening are a waste of time and do not get at the real game, memory is not thinking. The future is Freestyle!

[@mirko9072]

I tend to prefer classical, because it has an unique charm, it's the game my grandfather taught me and I never really felt it was limited by the starting position which is arguably perfect. The problem arises from "nerds" who think they are smart because they remember the 14th move in their favourite opening. That sucks, as if one should waste dozens of hours in memorising openings in order to play. So Chess960 has this benefit, yet it lacks the historical connection with past and the intrinsic beauty of the standard game.

[@dastankuspaev9217]

legacy chess

[@SR-fs2fd]

Castling is a stupid rule and it becomes stupider in chess960. If they remove it then chess960 will be taken more seriously.

[@mirko9072]

Castling wasn't there in shuffle chess, where both players' starting positions were randomized.

[@iamray112]

Honestly 960 is tough to follow

[@NoOne-so7jt]

Are we going to ignore Jesse saying "I assume most of them are cheaters"? 49:44 Is Jesse turning into Kramnik? 😆

[@TheBigGuppy]

I watched the World R&B. There are players rated lower than I am. And I suck …. LOL. Posted for the algorithm.

[@MrFlo5787]

Jesse seems to be missing that the Super Bowl draws in hundreds of millions of viewers while happening every year?

[@diells7396]

always something happening in the chess world

[@michaeltaberner4079]

I think it has more to do with just Freestyle wanted to use the term “chess world champion”. Im sure it is copyright to use that term or even world championship in any chess proceeding. I highly doubt Magnus and Hikaru both threaten to drop out just because of that. Honestly i wish there was a Union for the Players. Or some sort of legal protection like in Boxing with the Ali act.

[@MMasterDE]

There's no copyright issue, but FIDE wants to "own" the title anyway. They make the players agree to not enter any other tournament with the name in the next 4 years. Whoever breaks those rules don't get to play in future tournaments. FIDE "reminded" (threatened) several players about this before the tournament.

[@wreynolds1995]

@@michaeltaberner4079 In fairness to FIDE, if my knowledge of history is correct, part of the point of FIDE's existence as an organisation is _specifically_ to manage the chess world championship(s). That's why the organisation was founded, no? So if they're ever going to be consistent about anything, they have to be consistent about this: they own the "chess world champion" titles and they're in charge or setting up those events. Whether they do a good job is tangential. In the 90s, someone tried to go their own way with that, and everyone agrees that it was a disaster; so of course it's going to be a touchy topic.

[@michaeltaberner4079]

@ Why they were founded is irrelevant to the fact that they have been mishandling it forever. Seem they just care about FIDE more that chess, they are probably worst then the olympic committees. P.S they seem to give that world championship rules out the window

[@wreynolds1995]

@@michaeltaberner4079 Yes, I even said myself that how good of a job they've been doing is tangential to the purpose of their existence. The fact that we judge them to be incompetent in some respects doesn't mean they won't fight tooth and nail to maintain their existence.

[@DaydreamVacations]

Am I in the minority? I have ZERO interest in Freestyle.

[@delxinogaming6046]

Obviously the solution is for FIDE to sanction a Freestyle World Championship. This argument is IQ 10..

[@chessisbest]

yeah I'm not a fan of freesytle chess at all. I kind of wish I was, but it instantly bores me for some reason. Probably because watching it doesn't help me with my openings. lol I'm trying to make master and how the super GM's play my openings is exciting! I keep those games and use the middle game ideas in my own play.

[@zwischenzug910]

Jesse dropped out off Eastern Open, Magnus off WRB😢!

[@christiandiegoalcocer]

I wanted to like this page, but watching these IMs trying to destroy classical chess just to push their (and their friends') agendas is just sad. This "war" on FIDE will be a costly experiment. Random chess is not the future.

[@SBP21212]

Magnus is doing his retirement planning. He is not interested in playing anymore.

[@branislavlazin9285]

As per usual - I would just agree with Jesse on everything. Personally don't care for blitz or 15/10 game whatsoever; I guess 'freestyle' with longer time-control is watchable... but all in all can't see any competative relevance outside of Classical Chess. Now for FIDE... well they're just terrible.

[@superneenjaa718]

960 imo is not as elegant as normal chess. I'm all for increasing the complexity of chess. Make it 100 squares if you think you are reaching a limit in normal chess, but have to keep the pieces well structured. Chess is a war game. No general ever want to arrange their troop haphazardly and march into a war. And if you are going for ultimate chaos in the spirit of guerrilla warfare, 960 still remains a half ass way of doing it. We need something more chaotic for people with that kind of taste.

[@lotohi-qn2yv]

The pieces are haphazard. You're just used to them. War is generally very haphazard. Cities are where they are hills are where they are and you have to make the best of it. Troops most of all might be spread in different areas coming from different outposts and/or just finished a battle. The more haphazard probably the closer it is to real life.

[@superneenjaa718]

@lotohi-qn2yv war becomes chaotic as it progresses. When it starts troops are arranged in a planned manner.

[@MadaraUchiha-iu3ld]

How about we make the players choose their back rank arrangement? Have them place one piece at a time on the back rank each turn, starting with the King.

[@superneenjaa718]

@@MadaraUchiha-iu3ld that's a great idea. It would be far more interesting than 960.

[@moderator8289]

whats woody harrelson doing here?

[@tofusauce]

Fischer random to normal chess is XFL to NFL

[@mikem668]

@@tofusauce So you're saying most patzers could play in the NFL 🙂

[@vincentvangogh8092]

More than one world champ would suck bad just look at Boxing

[@Kuribohdudalala]

This needs to be re recorded after jeansgate

[@jermokoye]

i prefer denimgate : ) sound even more ridiculous

[@berntjensen1522]

i think ur wrong imo

[@walterb2531]

lol David's and Kostya's names are backwards

[@misterkefir]

They're not backwards but they are indeed mixed up, heh.

[@stevelangridge1755]

You guys risk being seen as living on another planet, so good luck! To believe that a big-headed player (of any sport or game) can just declare him or herself world champion, and expect idiots to agree with them, is fantasy. Being the best player (or team) and being world champion are simply two different things. Please wake up!

[@davidchuipka7893]

You may think so but if you know the history of the World Chess championship from the 1860s until 1948. World champions call the shots and selected or disapproved of their challengers and directly negotiated the prize funds for their matches.

[@stevelangridge1755]

@ I do know the history. So in your opinion, given that Capablanca was considered the best player in the world and Lasker avoided playing him, in your opinion was Capablanca actually world champion before taking the title in competition, merely because of consensus as to his quality as a player? In my view no, he may have been the best player long before he became champion, but he wasn’t champion until he managed to nail Lasker down and beat him. See also Kasparov. We may agree that he was both best in the world and world champion for a long period (Karpov fans may disagree ha ha!). But he gave up the title that was open to others and then declared himself still to be world champion according to his own rules. That’s nuts. At least Carlsen has had the honour to relinquish the title, even though he still remains the best of his generation (and possibly the GOAT). The point is that world champion and best in the world are not the same thing (even though they often coincide). This is true in all sports and games, including chess.

[@sanyamkalra4]

I am Indian and i definitely care about magnus winning. I mean it’s great gukesh won against ding but seriously who are we kidding neither ding or gukesh are real world champions as long as magnus is playing

[@sd-xk7qr]

I am Indian and I don't care about magnus at all, his style is not interesting to me like tal or Kasparov, he just wins. If i wanted to learn positional instructive chess karpovs games are there. Also most indians (if not almost all) would disagree with you on gukesh thing.

[@knowledgeablechad]

i am also an indian. and i would like to inform other people that this bozo is a very minute minority of indians we call brown sepoys. nobody thinks like him.

[@intercalz]

Neither your nationality nor who you support is an achievement.

[@endymion12321]

Magnus is a quitter. Real champions fight till the end. Both Ding and Gukesh are worthy champions.

[@DanRaj-o8y]

True. Magnus can keep the title of best player, but a champion needs to defend their title to be considered so.

[@knowledgeablechad]

Nakamura knows he isn't Winning much in normal chess. So he is trying his best by creating drama. He is the only top player who has never won anything significant but talks like he has dominated everyone but magnus. Pretend american. Nothing else

[@peterfredriksson1857]

Now we know (I think 😎) why Magnus wore jeans yesterday. This clash and that he didn't play well made him "go blue" I can imagine. I'm with Jesse on this one btw, at least for now. ♟️