China's Lithography Machine Dream Shattered! Dutch ASML Engineers Collectively Withdraw by Year-End

[@bwhog]

For reference, a single atom of gold has a diameter of 0.3 nanometers. Arsenic (a semi-conductor doping agent) is about 0.23nm. Silicon and germanium are smaller, though. What that means is that 2nm lithography is approaching the scale where you're leaving a single line of atoms for a circuit trace. However, for the semiconductors themselves, you have to have a matrix, a lattice, or they can't do their job. It is the combination of elements that makes them special. So the traces are only about signal and power propagation. Physical limitations will hit very soon.

[@mariawhite7337]

Oh yeah! And electrons don't behave. I know this much. Like scientists have tried to make single electron gates and the electrons just did not behave.

[@bwhog]

@@mariawhite7337 Quantum field effects start to become more important at that level and they are not exactly predictable.

[@Gabor-y3h]

chip stacking will be the future till Quantum will become mainstream

[@doorknockerpingu6932]

Also look at optical circuitry. This will allow the edge limitation for chips to be overcome.

[@regolith1350]

The potential slowing of tech innovation due to the limits of physics provides even MORE reason to ban all high-end technology export to China and prevent them from catching up.

[@creaturefeaturecosplay]

The irony of Western manufacturers dropping prices on low end machines and flooding the Chinese market to undercut domestic production is so satisfying.

[@peterpan4038]

Older production lines aren't profitable anyways, the international community LOVES to see CCP China produce low tech chips on the cheap for us. It's the state of the art chips that are of strategic interest, and the production lines for those are out of reach for CCP China.

[@Fish_Ventura]

@@creaturefeaturecosplay agreed

[@dannycalley7777]

CFC .........they make the revenue on the front end , then leave them deleted of money and chips on the back .......gotta love it when a plan comes together

[@dkgong]

China getting a taste of its own medicine.

[@chillxxx241]

This isn’t happening, but thanks for the laugh.

[@Skay24]

China research: Buy machines and in the process ask for all technical details about it and reverse engineer it. And then patent it as China breakthrough. OK, spelling corrected.

[@IEIDIDO]

When they get the machine: 😱

[@simonmasters3295]

>We are the machine...Western advances in AI will drive China to reduce supplies of Rare Earths and maybe other stuff.

[@user-ty2uz4gb7v]

That's their strategy with every technology and every industry

[@ericwilliams1659]

If that was true, they would be able to repair and maintain the machines. I think they just ask for the data and hand it in as their own work.

[@tjroelsma]

Only they face a few problems with that strategy: some parts they simply can't reverse engineer because they don't understand how they work and even when they do figure them out, they lack the means to manufacture them. Chinese microprocessors can't hold a candle to Intel's and AMD's processors, no matter how hard China tries to reverse engineer them.

[@jamieclarke321]

My social credit score went down watching this video

[@marcmcreynolds2827]

Try the approach of people brought before McCarthy's committee in the 1950's, who claimed that their interest in Communism was "intellectual curiousity".

[@jamieclarke321]

@ I believe Oppenheimer was able to make this work 👍

[@keeperofthefate]

My dad was a member of Gdynia 1970 strike, Gdańsk 1980 strike, Solidarity movement and was detained by citizen militia during martial law in 1981. If China rules the world, there is no social credit for me. My entire family goes straight to the camp, because it helped overthrow communism in my country.

[@ywsx6489]

The biggest problem with china's chip ambition is corruption. Most of the grants and r&d budget get sent to Swiss/US bank accounts of party officials.

[@edwxx20001]

they cant be limited by capital controls, because they need to make major purchases from nations outside China. it just makes the corruption easier.

[@vc8230]

It's common in all kind of aspects, from up and down, like education, social securities, housing,social and medical care, insurance and so on. It's a land of LIES and known all over the world.

[@tiefblau2780]

Lets Remember that what created today, Everyone has contribution. And if China doesnt want to play nice , China can go else where.

[@dannydandaniel8040]

Yeah that is endemic to almost every facet of Chinese culture

[@Shinobubu]

The ambition of most of China's people is still money. The ambition of ASML engineers is that they love being engineers over the love of money. we simply have more NERDS.

[@glenmcd]

So stealing can't get you everything after all eh?

[@tiefblau2780]

Lets Remember that what created today, Everyone has contribution. And if China doesnt want to play nice , China can go else where.

[@greentea5471]

​@@tiefblau2780let's never forget it was the UK who stole the invention of gun powder from the Chinese monks first to use it for killing and stealing land!!!

[@peterpan4038]

The margin of error in the state of the art chip business is TINY. One mistake and all you end up producing is junk. Hence CCP style industrial espionage can't steal it.

[@JackLouie-r6k]

China learn not stealling

[@NonnofYobiznes]

Oh, ok.

[@NonnofYobiznes]

So stealing intellectual property not only takes you so far, but it actually becomes the anchor tied to your neck.

[@alexanderriegler2271]

Intellectual Property does not exist, stupid neoliberal

[@mmaximk]

This whole “China steals our technology” line is a red herring. Every country that has industrialised has done so on the basis of acquiring technology from those who did it before except the UK who invented and developed the initial technology but they have gone onto steel plenty of other people’s ideas from porcelain to gunpowder to silk to movable type print - everybody everywhere in all epochs of history steals.

[@FreeSpeech-z6j]

the problem now is USA programmers are also now banned from working with china to program the encoding algorithms. Chinese are not smart enough to figure that out.

[@Nicholasbroughton0420]

It pays to develop tech domestically from the ground up. Maybe the long road, but it ensures dominance for years in that market.

[@owenlewis8504]

@@FreeSpeech-z6jAMSL is Dutch multinational, programming not all American LOL, it’s just that America threatened them with sanctions. You watch too many films about America being the super race 🤡

[@0Zebadee0]

How many of these engineers will be able to safely leave the country if the CCP doesn't hold them hostage?

[@tomluke647]

99% 😂

[@sblumenstein6688]

They’ll need to print their own passports.

[@jonnybliekamsterdam]

100%

[@Shinobubu]

@@sblumenstein6688 these engineers are from first world countries that have embassies in China so they can leave whenever they want. they can just get a temporary visa and leave.

[@alrighty6898]

China will let them leave in an urn

[@JPs-q1o]

The bit the hand that feeds them and now they're going to starve.

[@adrianneill5014]

What side are you talking about here...?

[@whatbear3804]

@@adrianneill5014poorer side

[@blackups__6554]

It the west that needs china my friend to do their cheap labor, so y’all can afford to buy and IPhone. Let Trump move companies to US and you will be buying iPhone for $3000 😂😂😂😂😂

[@heartlessangel1460]

​@@blackups__6554 I'm reading your comment on a $2000 Samsung Android. No one NEEDS China. Apple moved FOXCONN to Vietnam.

[@marknascimento-u2k]

Yeah we can't afford an iPhone anyway ​@@blackups__6554

[@digital-experiance2390]

Good Idea not to sell to china or russia!

[@SansaStarkw]

I mean, why would Taiwan help China? If China wants to invade Taiwan, why would TSMC help China just to get invaded?

[@mrjoepietube]

sinds china is helping russia so much this is a great move from asml they already got to much technology as is.

[@MohamedAshik-t3l]

All countries depends to one another america also depends more to china

[@digital-experiance2390]

@@MohamedAshik-t3l Not anymore. The global market is gone and will become much worse for china. The quality jsut does not match anymore and the criminals getting their hands on every market. Do not buy chinese products!

[@Kool6790]

The steal our technology, and then try to kill us with it. Karma is knocking at their door.

[@johnkeo358]

Considering what china did with german trains, I don't blame the Dutch for keeping things proprietary

[@glynnec2008]

China stole all of the tech for high speed trains, but the wheels made domestically are of such poor quality that the trains are now shaking and rattling so much that they can no longer run at top speeds, i.e. stolen IP + Tofu dreg construction = Failure

[@EenYouTubeGebruiker]

We aren't that smart. The US government decides for us what ASML is allowed to do.

[@karlhacki6890]

german government is oriented to riding cars not trains therefor no more money for Transrapid no wrongdoing by china in this case. The remains of Transrapid was thrown out to china

[@mathewphoria7228]

i hope this is all true, this would put china's capability back to 2006. literally pushing them back in time.

[@pablosskates7067]

They gonna be competing with the ps2 yo!

[@animalnt]

why would you want to push back scientific progress? china or not, thats the wrong attitude

[@ronch550]

​@@animalnt Because life isn't as simple as you think.

[@Talpiot_Program]

"Hope" its true? Anyone with basic knowledge of the industry knows this. China is "pushed" as an enemy for profits and political control of local populations. It, like Russia, is a backward joke. But Lockheed needs profits too.

[@pinball8701]

@@animalnt Know your enemy.

[@gitamic2287]

Atom lithography would be great, from a gaming perspective more processing power, now if only the developers actually optimize their code instead of relying on more powerful chips to process their messy codes.

[@TheBlueKamel]

AI will eventually refactor all code

[@alexlo7708]

Atom lithography won't use electric but magnetic spin. It will have far different from this conventional approach. So it is not on the same entity. Country who has no experience in conventional lithography machine can leap across the conventional way to R&D on the new way on chip suddenly.

[@alfredolavin]

@@TheBlueKamel It is already doing exactly that. The optimizing step of many compilers involves the learning from millon of lines of other code

[@kogorun]

​@@TheBlueKamelIt will not.

[@MostlyPennyCat]

​@@kogorun And even if we tried, good luck validating all it's changes 😂

[@Guust_Flater]

If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much. 😂🇳🇱

[@davidyoung2111]

Much love to the Netherlands 🇳🇱 from the U.S. 🇺🇸. Dutch kicks butt.

[@markandrade7547]

I've made the claim/ joke for years about where are the most peaceful, secular and scientific nations in the world today... The Viking nations the Dutch, The Norse and Swedes 😂😂😂 You can't make scientific advances when you have to stop 5 times a day to pray. If there's no Oden or his son Thor God of Thunder and nobody is trying to get to Valhalla anymore, why not spend your time on scientific research to help the human race advance. The Hubble and James Web telescopes were built to help humans, I want "Star Trek" in earth and religious people are going towards "Tank Girl".

[@undefined-env]

Dutch? Gotta be clutch! 😂

[@jimfrazier8104]

Not all of the technologies that make those incredibly complex machines work are Dutch in origin, which is why ASML can tell certain countries to get lost, but has to play ball with those countries that make the critical parts and own the patents on them.

[@ashleysimthi4852]

If it ain't USA, it ain't much

[@commentsarefree4311]

Have had many disagreements online , some people claiming ASML is finished. It's clear from this video that you don't just push ASML to the side. Most people don't understand how complex these machines are and are not easily copied.

[@shermanpeabody6102]

the Laws of Physics are the same everywhere

[@kolviczd6885]

No matter how complicated it is.. anything made by men can be made by another man. It's just a matter of time.

[@TreelDuck]

​@@kolviczd6885 they have been trying for the past 20 years without success. So wtf are you on.

[@benfowler1134]

@@shermanpeabody6102China couldn’t even make a ballpoint pen until recently. The physics is very well understood.

[@awildtomappeared5925]

but China don't have the most advanced machines so they are very very far behind

[@BLACKAAROW]

Not only that, Chinese students should not be allowed to apply to foreign universities to study advanced STEM fields especially in AI and chip technology

[@nfuryboss]

Probably on PLA scholarships

[@Michael9-23-15]

This should be a No brainer. I can't believe that we're allowing them in at all.

[@BLACKAAROW]

@@Michael9-23-15 exactly I’ve seen multiple stories where Chinese professors and students were caught feeding info to the CCP regarding advanced technology in military, AI etc

[@vyneshindenmc6181]

Yes to Ban Chinese in every country.

[@douglei4413]

China steals technology while the USA steals talents. How come you dont understand this?

[@fanily4072]

Anyone else find it ironic it was Intel that led the development of EUV and when the first machines were available they said too expensive and let TSMC take the lead in manufacturing.

[@markvanderknoop131]

This is about the machines that produce the chips.

[@dieseltinus6680]

Here in the Netherlands everybody has its own lithography machine. [Disclaimer]: Just bragging.

[@mennobaron975]

Grappig 😂

[@tanpham1975]

Do they print money with it? 😂

[@Minifutzi_o.O]

And if it needs to be repaired they bring it to a public place where everyone helps fixing it

[@peterclarke3020]

Powered by bicycles..

[@jeffreytabag9380]

​@@tanpham1975yes, but it's in nanometer level

[@slacker1]

Remind me why China wants Taiwan back again?

[@angelsantana3001]

Those chip companies in Taiwan are rigged for explosion as a fail safe. China will never get there hands on that tech. I would put money on the fact that blueprints and software code is not kept in Taiwan.

[@Fanta....]

distraction for imploding gubbermint.

[@larryc1616]

TSMC

[@stevenkwan5589]

Take Taiwan back oso no use cos TSMC eventually will be move out to USA or Japan !

[@snake21ab]

@@stevenkwan5589 they can be disabled remotely

[@Tipsythomas]

Great news but also an interesting brief look into the industry.

[@Sebastianmaz615]

Ur right, it's very interesting. 😀

[@DoveAlexa]

Yeah, this was a good one

[@tiefblau2780]

Just look at the Train wheels no more Train Wheels? No more Stable Train XD

[@ILIVEAGOODLIFE]

Great news how,?

[@jaik195701]

I remember being uneasy, in 1979, when researchers from communist China, were allowed access to the National Submicron Facility facility that the NSF had built at the Cornell school of electrical engineering

[@SterileNeutrino]

And are you unease still?

[@santosakowski9846]

This is a nicely done, comprehensive report on the evolution of IC technology. I enjoyed it a lot. Good job!

[@lorittaganda9983]

Continue the great work idol and merry Christmas all of you guys ⛄⛄🎄🎄

[@lebowskitriple8]

Incredibly informative !!! Thank you ...

[@fredEVOIX]

semi-conductor means working with values in the pico that's 0.000000000001 precision it is not an industry you can cut corners in and we know how chinese manufacturing is this is why most of the machines come from expensive companies high quality focused rather than cost cutting, as I think Intel or someone else said if you break 1 wafer it's one Tesla car of damage, there's no half-effort possible here, if China loses access to maintenance and parts for their machines it's game over

[@ikeafanatic1749]

Social and cultural traits matter!

[@MrGerdbrecht]

a number without a unit means nothing. sry to be pedantic.

[@zonehd3433]

Given enough time, China will be able to do the semiconductors and even surpass. Yes it will take a lot of time, but take Turkey as an example. Who would have thought the Turks would develop their own fighter jet, yes it is not fully indigenous, but in due time it will be. The same goes for Chinese semiconductors. It will take a lot of time, half measures or even sanction bypass….never underestimate a desperate opponent

[@Lincoln1862]

Sad but true

[@dsmogor]

The important question is how come ASML doesn't have any competition at this level in this critical industry. E.g. why no American company can do that? The answer will give the picture of the future Chinese progress.

[@PandaPanda-ud4ne]

No, it won´t be. The Turks cannot develop a meaningful own fighter jet, they are not able to do so, intellectually and culturally. They just, like the chinese, copy western planes, but worse. You can be desperate as much as you want, but it is also about talent, knowledge culture, traditions.

[@MrGerdbrecht]

Invention is a result of free thinking engineers. And authority obedient make bad engineers on average. China's innovation was mostly a product of copying stuff and access to foreign engineers. Now all those things are gone mostly.

[@atanumaulik7093]

A brilliant analysis. A rare gem in a sea of nonsense. The producers of this video really has a DEEP knowledge and understanding of the complexity of modern technology.

[@brennencox516]

6:07 The island of Taiwan is not a part of the PRC, as this map suggests.

[@douglei4413]

The maps made for china or for the USA?

[@kolviczd6885]

It is part of PRC as per the UN and 183 countries. Just stating the fact.

[@Akideoni]

According to PRC ANYTHING PRC sees belongs to PRC. But MOST PRC are blinded geopolitically and generally muffled from protests.

[@georgegao1202]

check TW’s constitution.

[@georgegao1202]

The western desperation is palpable

[@Supernumerary]

Thank You to everyone who shared their knowledge, expended their time writing informative comments here. I learned quite a bit.

[@redcarcinogenic4941]

With how their economy and government is going, they'll probably fall apart before getting where they need, having 60 trillion in debt and being seen as an aggressor similar to Russia also doesn't help their chances.

[@michaeldendulk2230]

The 60 trillion is only the local authority debt and that is an estimate, it could be more. Then you have to add the debt of the central government on top of that. Their estimated debt to GDP ratio is already the same as that of the USA, while the USA has a far better economy to service said debt. US debt to GDP is also showing a trend of reaching a plateau, while China's is ballooning rapidly.

[@marcmcreynolds2827]

An even more unsolvable problem for the PRC's economy in the long-term is demographic: They are getting old too too fast. Economists are now considering whether the PRC economy will ever surpass USA's before entering long-term decline.

[@michaeldendulk2230]

@@marcmcreynolds2827 I think they already concluded it was impossible and they would soon be surpassed by India for the number 2 spot (don't ask me how they define 'soon', India still has some way to go, but unlike China, they have the demography to grow).

[@CT5770AD]

Last time I heard, the debt is 6 trillion trillion.

[@nuevision8]

​@@michaeldendulk2230 As with everything in school mathematics, show your work. USA National Debt is adding US$1 trillion every 100 days. China, India, Brazil, Russia, Europe, are nowhere close to that... USA is a house of cards close to collapse. Global financial markets are Global. USA Corporations have been relying on cheaper China labor for decades. Now they want manufacturing back and to increase tariffs and implement new tariffs ? 😂😂😂 That's why BRICS+ is growing and creating a new global trading currency system. The USA has always wanted USA Corporations to have the largest market shares and to have a monopoly wherever possible. That era is called End Stage Capitalism. Endless Wars & Weapons Sales & Gas & Oil are not the best industries for humanity, environment, biodiversity, quality of life, evolution, and health. Farmers don't need advanced chips. Fishermen do not need advanced chips. Humanity does not need advanced chips. A paradigm shift is occuring, in case you weren't paying attention... You can't eat money. You can't eat advanced chips. Politicians & Governments will keep lying to you that national security is at stake... We all breathe the same atmosphere... They are making that atmosphere toxic. GREED & MONEY & Technology are not the answers to life.

[@jesdakosol1797]

China needs to learnt how to be “parts-of-the-world”….Not be “a-part-of-the-world”

[@RG-jr8ym]

The USA also needs to do the same instead of bullying every country into submitting to them

[@kyberite]

How to be "a part of the world" not "apart of the world" *

[@CoffeeAndPaul]

Mmm. Nicely put. And it's not like the US can't benefit from partnering with China in many important projects. Y'all Chinese can bring a lot of resources to any American table, but y'all need to stop stealing because... it's just ghetto, like, people deserve fair credit & compensation for their work. Stealing isn't cool.

[@davidhalliday7776]

Not one single manufacturer of all those machines is from the USA either.

[@recondax]

The US may not produce any of the hardware but the US supplies the software to make everything work together.

[@pricebusters1966]

Software written by Indians on worker visas

[@michaeldendulk2230]

To be fair, the machines are a culmination of technology (both hardware and software) from many countries, all of them 'Western' (counting Japan as Western here). ASML is just the company that managed to put it all together and get it to work, which in itself is quite an accomplishment.

[@mariacheebandidos7183]

the whole thing (in fact the whole IT industry) is an American invention and the US still makes and controls critical hardware, software... for these machines. and even after outsourcing most of the manufacturing the US still holds most of the IP. ever wonder why the US can almost unilaterally make these bans / sanctions and restrictions

[@kerentolbert5448]

No single country has the wherewithal to do what the consortium can do. The beginning of the integrated circuit was here in the United States, but like quantum mechanics, there was a lot of international input to get circuit tracing as sophisticated as it is today. No one single thought process was able to achieve this level of technical refinement. Almost every technical idea began somewhere, but it advanced as free flowing ideas from many minds everywhere. The Chinese government think they can supplant that path by force of will.

[@fonzdevries4575]

Why is chinas "progress" dependant on western innovation ( I mean progress) Copypasta not the same as R&D?

[@ikeafanatic1749]

They're not like the Japanese. Japanese are built different though.

[@spaceguy564]

@@ikeafanatic1749 Japan invented waifus.. they are indeed built different. Plus they have anime and god on their side

[@alfredolavin]

Is Japan a western country now? if something I learned from the video is that almost everything important and extreme is made in Japan, not in western countries.

[@oftenwrongphong]

Because this video is propaganda. For our sake, I hope the West can keep the pressure on and Japan in our pocket, as Japan seems to be pulling most of the weight and getting shafted politically (the Nipon Steel deal that Biden will surely strike down being a prime example). I hope in 30 years, we won't be like Intel wondering how we got left behind with such a lead.

[@peterpan4038]

CCP style industrial espionage works for most industries, but state of the line chip production has a VERY thin margin of error. Make any mistakes and all you get is junk. To put things into perspective: even the US isn't even close to producing state of the art chips in house. You really need hyper specialized companies from all over the globe to build a working chip production line that can supply chips for modern hardware. Hence you REALLY don't won't to be in a trade war with nations that are part of that supply chain, unless you are ready to accept living without a supply of modern chips. One example for this would be Russia, Putin doesn't give a damn about the lack of anything... he does whatever he wants. The CCP on the other hand WANTS to have a growing high tech industry, and that's a pipedream without lots of international coorporation. Lets just say South Korea, Taiwan and Japan aren't exactly the biggest fans of the CCP, the same holds true for more and more western nations involved in the chip supply chain.

[@SansaStarkw]

and I love the Philippines, and I hate China trying to mess with Philippine sailors.

[@huuhhhhhhh]

Necessity is the mother of all invention. Don't be surprised if they come up with an "out of box" solution

[@1verstapp]

of course china could do some r&d, except everyone knows china doesn't do that.

[@MegaRazorback]

They quite literally CAN'T do that as 1. they've never had to due to the rest of the world up until recently using China as THE place to set up so any shit that was shipped there they'd have access to during that time and could simply copy it. 2. they don't have the required research base needed for this level of tech as they've always relied on the previously mentioned copying of tech.

[@michanel888]

Research and innovation require freedom to think outside the box, what kind of freedom do they have? If CCP allow them to think freely, what ELSE will these people THINK?

[@spinncook7402]

They have money to do that. It's the rampant corruption preventing it from happening.

[@marcmcreynolds2827]

@@michanel888 An extreme case of that was the USSR under Stalin. For a long time after WWII, the rocket engineers mostly worked on scaling up V-2 technology rather than innovating. Why stick your neck out when it might get cut off?

[@Akideoni]

Sure they do Recreation and Deception 😂

[@Kwaga2009]

Europe must keep their knowledge and not give it away to others. Look after their own people and societies. Knowledge is power and Europe needs to be Hub of knowledge and not give it away to USA or other countries. We don't need communism in the world, it's an evil system.

[@dieselphiend]

It's crazy how ASML can make the machines that make the chips but it can't make the chips..

[@MrGerdbrecht]

That's like saying "I am surprised i'm no Dali, despite i can make the finest brushes".

[@ericwelsh4853]

Also, I've noticed that China seems to have given up on supercomputers. They were competitive for a few years, but now they don't have anything in the top 10 of the top500 list of supercomputers.

[@taon707]

I worked on several old 90's Nikon I-line stepping photolithography machines and let me tell you lol, compared to any other industry in the electronics field, the subsystems and everything in litho machines is literally space age tech, even old steppers from the 90's are still sought after today and cost more than they did new. they are still complex and intricate like you wouldn't imagine, i was never trained properly on the new scanners by trust me when i tell you the new ASML deep UV stuff is basically alien tier of tech to any normal human being, you cant just buy one and understand how it works or reverse engineer it. im laughing just thinking about the poor chinese dudes who were tasked to figuring it out.

[@ClockworksOfGL]

EUVL is a mixture of voodoo and alien technology from the future. IIRC, the important patents are owned by the US government, and the majority of critical components come from the US and its allies.

[@elivelive]

They'll just end up pulling every hair on their head out😂

[@JohSebBac]

The reason why they wouldn't be able to reverse engineer it because they lack the foundation of know how technology.They may own some tech by espionage but in semiconductor industry, every step has to be figured out and developed through possibility and done by hyper specialized company with hundred of years of experience

[@Fanta....]

I hope one day the chinese people can have a free and open government, and it allows them to rejoin the international community.

[@tiefblau2780]

Did you forget ... They willing choose that , Just look at Hong Kong

[@johnphoon]

I think China is freer than many so-called Western nations ...

[@kolviczd6885]

International community under the dictatorship of US and Anglo-Saxon control?? No way! They rest of the world (the majority 88% of the world) says, no thank you, enough of the western bullies. We are going to free ourselves from the western imperialist. Period.

[@alfredolavin]

I pray the same for the american people, may they have some day universal healthcare

[@MrGerdbrecht]

@@alfredolavin Their military has, and is the most socialist thing they got, including free education. You just have to sell your soul for it).

[@JRRodriguez-nu7po]

Reverse engineering is great short term, especially when you disregard patent rights as China routinely does. Long term though it stunts you home grown talent. It not only leaves you always steps behind but often unable to truly understand whatever you're trying to make. As complexity scales up you're left with increasing problems your engineering doesn't know how to solve or maintain. It also fosters cutting corners and fraud FAR more than competitive greed. that enforces property rights.

[@klave_rock1112]

I don't see what is so difficult about this. China has the technology from 5 years ago....so they can just take incremental steps based on older technology, and eventually, they will get the same point. They might even surprise ASML and TSMC. It is just a matter of time and money.

[@michaeldendulk2230]

Only this is one field where scaling up old tech only gets you so far and that is the point China has now pretty much reached. Just look at Huawei, they have pretty much just been rehashing the same chip with minimal changes for several years now.

[@klave_rock1112]

@@michaeldendulk2230If I give best automobile engine technology from the 1990's to a poor third world country, and train their best and brightest to work with it. You don't think that they can improved upon it so that it would reach 2024 technology? If they pour enough money and time into it, it can be done.

[@michaeldendulk2230]

@@klave_rock1112 like I said, in some fields it will work, in this particular field, it won't, as the evolution is not linear based on the same base technology. Lithography machines are a result of many different technologies developed by many different companies coming together and made to function through complex interactions. China has been throwing money at it for many, many years. A lot of money... and they have made very little progress. Most of the claims of progress they have made have been swiftly debunked, mostly due to them being made by companies trying to secure subsidies from the CCP before making off with the money (think of the rebranded Intel chips that were claimed to be made by a Chinese company a few years back... just a shame they forgot to remove the serial numbers...).

[@klave_rock1112]

@@michaeldendulk2230 Why does it have to be linear? China does not have to follow the same path at all. The goal is to make faster computer chips....just use whatever path it takes to make it faster. Don't even use semiconductor chips. Use something else...think outside the box. Again, it is just a matter of time and money. If everyone always go linear, then instead of using electricity, we would all be using the most advanced kerosene lamp.

[@PandaPanda-ud4ne]

@@klave_rock1112 They can´t think OUTSIDE of the box! You are funny! Do you think that if Chinese would be experts in thinking outside of the box, XI PING would rule China??? No. He would be nowhere near the top. Look at chinese politicians. They are corrupt apparatchiks that stifle free thinking and critical free speech. Do you REALLY believe that in such an atmosphere people can think OUTSIDE the box?! Look at the chinese! Look at them without a veil over your eyes! They are collective thinking people, very shallow, uncreative, experts in memorizing stuff. What you wanna expect from them, non linear thinking, get outta here, lol! Every chinese who can think OUT OF THE BOX in the way you propose, is already on his way to USA and Europe! What do you want those free thinking out of box chinese geniuses to do, stay in China under XI PING?! LOL. That is like this absurd idea that very intelligent, very creative russians will stay in Russia under PUTIN to develop technologies to defeat the west! LOL. No! These people are already fled to EU and USA and they will stay there! The same goes for China!

[@haianh3936]

Thank you buddy

[@darrenmarchand6991]

These machines are very cool the,amount of work that goes into these machines is incredible

[@oker59]

i thought China was banned from having any ASML lithography machines

[@ashleycampbell6825]

Obviously nothing is set and forget about this type of technology. Interesting the impact of an earthquake and the resultant lengthy period to re calibrate these machines. Complexity and cost of ownership is staggering beyond the concept of most people. I learnt a lot from this video and it is well beyond my technical level of being able to push buttons on a keyboard.

[@quoabell]

this is such a good report. thanks for the great summary! China today is comparable to 1936 Germany

[@sammigiancana2926]

Give China CCP nothing..........................NO THING !!!!!!!

[@MrGerdbrecht]

I'd give em "The thing".

[@Kool6790]

AMEN.

[@vincenttay2812]

Propaganda mouthpiece

[@2024mikeelder]

I checked prices of the 4090 rtx graphics cards, and the auction site had some listings from china with the cards that were missing the main cpu chip and the 24gb vram. Not sure what goes on, but it seems odd to be selling such leftovers.

[@uss-dh7909]

Steal what you need, sell what you don't, frankenstein all the rest.

[@recondax]

It is not leftovers, China can only provide things to a point. China can not its hands on the parts you mentioned.

[@benfowler1134]

Our adversaries are limited to the technology that is possible to copy or steal.

[@waltbroedner4754]

These video is full of missinformation, China has had 7nm technology for a long time now and is already achieving 3nm technology. does china have 3nm technology: Xiaomi In October 2024, Xiaomi became the first Chinese company to design a 3-nanometer (nm) smartphone chip. The chip is expected to be mass produced in the first half of 2025. TSMC is expected to manufacture the chip. China's progress in 3nm technology is considered a historic milestone and a sign that China is catching up to the world's most successful chip manufacturers. However, the US Semiconductor Industry Association (SIA) says the gap between the US and China in advanced chip production will continue to widen.

[@eone199]

is TSMC PRC's company?

[@luispnrf]

@@eone199 Well, according to the United Nations it is.

[@mattanderson6672]

Rise up People of China

[@Brandon-rc9vp]

The comments here are very one sided and most without much understanding of the technology, politics, or facts involved. If the west actually believes in free markets, why are they afraid to behave like they do and instead resort to supporting oligarchies, non-competitive practices and suppression of other countries? Did the US approach to suppressing Cuba or North Korea achieve anything other than causing suffering to the local populations? Have the leaders installed by western regimes (Saddam Hussein, the Shah of Iran, Pinochet, Batista, Idi Amin, Franco, Duvalier, Salazar, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc...) made Americans safer or more prosperous or have they created decades of blowback and war? Other countries don't hate the US because of freedom, they hate the US for what it does to the world in the name of supporting the pocket books of the capital class. China is more valuable to the wealthy as an enemy than as a partner, needs of the people of either country are irrelevant to the governments.

[@mypropheticsoul]

WOW…what a bunch of dogmas…marxist, Leninist, Maoist dogmas about the capital class and the working class..The reality is this: In China, Russia, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela etc..the individual is a soldier or a slave (which one you become is decided by the dictator or by the party, never by you). The rule of Law in these countries depends on the political power. It is not independent. That is the clash…it is a cultural clash as old as humanity, between people who want to build their own lives without a bully watching over them and people who have no choice but to follow whatever life path is given to them by their “leaders”. And in those countries you either work all your life for the goals of the political leaders (who are just armed bullies amassing greater wealth and power without ever creating anything or working like most people do) or you go to war for them. That is the clash…basically a cultural clash..modern democracies free the ambitions and creativity of all individuals and reward them through the most important social invention in history: the market. That is one invention that these countries cannot use, because it would be akin to setting free their people’s wishes and ambitions within a set of rules independent from the political power. This is the greatest, unsurpassable advantage of the countries where you believe rules the capital class. That advantage are their FREE individuals. They are the true, endless source of power of western democracies, which you can see in their scientific, technological and social achievements today. Please count the number of Russian or Chinese Nobel laureates in the past 50 years. Count them. All the ground breaking ideas and methods and discoveries blossom from human minds who live and think freely, without fear of political bullies, and they are rewarded not only with money…unfortunately for those authoritarian countries money is the only reward they know to attract or retain individual creators and engineers and scientists.

[@PandaPanda-ud4ne]

The USA is not afraid of honest, clear competition, what they are afraid of, and should be afraid of, is of course dishonest, unfair, destructive competition under the umbrella of dictatorships, that want to destroy the west. For example, the USA allowed Germany and Japan and South Korea after 1945 to become tech gigants, even at the cost of the US automobile industry. They could have easily stopped that in their tracks. After YOUR LOGIC, it does not make sense! American capitalists and american workers lost a lot of money, when these countries ascended technologically and became rich. Why did the USA allow that? Because they believe in honest, transparent, good competition! China is the case in point. Why so many sanctions against China? Because China wants to kill and murder the west. Xi Ping has transformed his country into a xenophobic, nationalistic, militaristic police state. Human rights are non existent. Wanton rule is commonplace. In the state media the west is depicted as evil and must be overthrown. Nobody goes to China anymore, because whatever you earn, you cannot take with you OUT of China! China does not play according to the rules book! Like Germany and Japan and South Korea did!

[@hamzaterzi8801]

By the way, you should definitely include a reference under the videos on this subject.

[@tiefblau2780]

6:37 also Not only are they 18 years behind , They dont have the basic building blocks and foundational know-how of the technology. Thus, cannot improve because to improve they have to look back into the Basic Building Blocks on why does this happened this way or needs improvement , and possibility to improve. *They* *dont* *know* , *What* *Can* *and* *What* *Cant* *be* *improve* *with* *their* *current* *technology* *they* *have* *at* *hand.* Also the technology that are use to improve this technology ALSO needs improvements. 1 Mind cannot Build a Country ... 1 Country cannot build ... maybe International Space Station ... 1 Space Station cannot build ... Intergalactic Council

[@shaunnarine3974]

I'm not too concerned about this. China will master these technologies very soon. It is already far ahead of the West in most other technologies and produces far, far more STEM grads than any other country. The West just won't accept that its time of domination in the world is at an end and that it needs to share power. But Western decline is inevitable as Asia returns.

[@peterpan4038]

You mean the stem graduates that end up as delivery drivers because the big stem companies are laying off people on mass in China? Good joke. And don't inflate Chinas position, "Asia" is a lot bigger than just China.

[@DeftPol]

I mean, as the video points out Asia is already a core contributor to this supply chain - it’s just that those companies are all in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan rather than China. The mosaic of suppliers across multiple countries is what makes the technology advance.

[@PandaPanda-ud4ne]

@@DeftPol It is more complex, because the european and american companies supply those companies that make the chips with necessary tech, like the lithograph machines from Netherlands. Without Europe and USA, even these three outside of China, cannot build chips on their own. Asia´s return is a hyperbole.

[@PandaPanda-ud4ne]

It is not, lol, where is China ahead in technologies?! In every area, the Chinese are far, far back. Yes, it produces a ton of STEM grads, but from chinese universities, which are run by corrupt party officials under Xi Ping. A democratic China would be interesting, but by definition, they would then be western, like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan is. The East has no solutions, no progress, no future.

[@Kool6790]

Yes. When you steal technology, you can take a shortcut to production. China is going broke. Their cities are being deserted. Their economy is in the tank.

[@timotheegoulet1511]

1:08 are they referring to the 6514 Industrial I/O digital interfaces? Would make sense because then China could close the necessities of sourcing bits abroad!

[@shakthidhasan4544]

IT WILL NOT BE SCRAP, it still can be used as a paperweight😂

[@hamzaterzi8801]

0:58 Bro what do you say? Taiwan (China) produced 3nm transistor.

[@gilangwahyu4450]

Using what machine?

[@hamzaterzi8801]

@@gilangwahyu4450 High NA EUV) lithography machine is designed by the Dutch company ASML. But the Chinese always have a backup plan. They are very good at reverse engineering.

[@gilangwahyu4450]

@@hamzaterzi8801 not trying to go on the debate about geopolitics cause i litterally had zero knowledge about you guys. So i'll just agree with you on china had backup plan. Tbh i want china to succed too on lithography through huawei research.

[@hamzaterzi8801]

@gilangwahyu4450 Well, I don't know that much either. But these aren't poor countries. There is nothing they can't do.

[@Kool6790]

Taiwan is Free China. Communist China is a government of murderers.

[@aliruz4800]

Don’t underestimate Chinese power!

[@psmqdt-r4x]

O.K. Dance to the conclusion of this video.

[@user-gl9iz1bp1r]

Thank you for objective truthful awareness.

[@hans-georgwerner3826]

Was ist das denn für ein gequirlter Schwachsinn…

[@timmyv6176]

As a Dutchy; I think the restrictions are a bad idea overall for the whole world.

[@lafielanarchy]

This is best thing that could had happened to China. Now they are forced to make their own and invest into research and this will make them get ahead and we in Europe will become poor. Would had been much better if west keept providing them with machines so they do not develop.

[@christianmary1265]

Long live the Independent Republic of Taiwan

[@Dmwntkp99]

Secrets to USA, Dutch, Swiss, Korea, Japan, Germany parts rule, 2nm to 90nm 😂

[@aga5897]

The notion that China cannot copy that technology is laughable. Just look at the sheer scale of the populations of Holland and China. ... also the ability of the Governments in each country to Order stuff.

[@USS_Liberty_never_forget]

Do you have links to sources?

[@SvenHeidemann-uo2yl]

Well put together breakdown.

[@mgronich948]

Just operating these complex machines takes a lot of talented engineers and scientists. This is why Intel is floundering. In spite of the $52B chips act, in spite of getting delivery of the worlds most advanced lithography machine, high NA EUV, from ASML, Intel 1 year after delivery of the machine is not able to produce leading edge chips for sale to customers. The lack of talent in the US in chip production has lead to the firing of Intel's CEO, the layoff of > 15,000 workers, billions and billions of dollars of loses for the company. And very likely Intel will spin off its chip manufacturing to be a stand alone company kept alive only by US government subsidies. There is no doubt that US sanctions that prevent ASML from servicing its machines have hurt China's chip foundaries. But the big companies like SMIC have been able to service their machines themselves for a few years. This is just a temporary setback as SMIC and other large companies trains more engineers to service the rest of the ASML DUV machines in China.

[@PandaPanda-ud4ne]

It is more ART, than skill...those Lithograph Machines need to be carressed, cuddled, spoken to, ARTISTS need to be around them, to produce high quality leading edge chips.

[@FreedomIsNotFree2023]

The great Ghina is best Ghina ever, this all western propaganda! 😑😑😑

[@marcmcreynolds2827]

I thought it was better before their president became a dictator.

[@mikestewart4752]

Oh no! Kirin is as high tech as they get. 🤣

[@張榮華-z9o]

Kirin is also manufactured by TSMC😊

[@tonythai5991]

Good for washing machines?

[@mikestewart4752]

@Ya, but just the junk ones that break 30 days out of warranty.

[@QiuyuanChenRyan916]

EUV burns a lot of electricity to controls the movement, so if someone find alternative to control the movement that would be awesome too.

[@peterfireflylund]

120 for 8 billion €? That would be a steal! They must have got a lot fewer or paid a lot more.

[@danielch6662]

Not all were the latest top of the line machines. And with volume, you get discounts.

[@peterpan4038]

@@danielch6662 That and while lithography machines are critically important they are just a small part of your full production line. It takes a whole lot of high tech machinery to produce a single state of the art chip.

[@GaryKennedy-g7p]

Netherlands population 18 million .... China 1,400 million ...... China can put around 75 engineers onto the same project as the Netherlands ...... dream on

[@NeroX-nh8se]

5:30 that is lame, Chinese companies don't need to sell their DUV machines because mostly are state owned. And i believe the Dutch government has prohibited ASML from selling more machines? Even if they are flooding the market with DUV machines that have the same capabilities, that still helps the Chinese. So you are contradicting yourself... Rubbish content...

[@danielch6662]

They need to frame everything as _China sucks and can't do anything right._ Unfortunately Westerners like to hear this, and even more unfortunately, it promotes a sense of blithe reckless complacency.

[@peterpan4038]

It's no contradiction. We >want< to get low tech chips on the cheap manufactured made in China. No western company can make a profit with 65nm chips anyways. Meanwhile the state of the art 2-4nm chips are of strategic interest, hence the capability to produce those isn't shipped to CCP China.

[@NeroX-nh8se]

@@peterpan4038 i dont think u even watched video... They are saying the ASML engineers are moving out of China, so no one will be maintaining the DUVs. On the other hand, China has succeeded developing their own DUVs, and thus ASML is lowering the cost of the DUVs... So tell me, isn't that contradicting itself? FYI, for 2-4nm chips, the machine is called EUVs.

[@MegaRazorback]

@@NeroX-nh8se Not really, they may have developed their own DUV's but the problem is they are an unknown quantity while the old DUV's that the west makes ARE a known quantity and the main reason China's own DUV's can't get off the ground is two fold, they are used to the western tech to the point when anything that isn't a big brand in China gets zero eyes on it inside China and the second part is it's cheaper for companies to buy older stuff that isn't sanctioned that they are used to (the training for using these machines isn't short in the slightest) than spend more money on home grown tech that requires a lengthy training period to even start up the first time.

[@edwinbruckner4752]

Basically the American government put pressure on the Dutch government to halt ASML selling machines to China. If ASML ignored these sanctions, making America mad, ASML and the Dutch government probably would be sanctioned by the US. Nor Dutch government, nor ASML where happy with this. But it is the Dutch government, that once again, bowed for Uncle Sam.

[@ClemensKatzer]

I am surprised that China has not yet struck back with refusing to supply rare earth minerals, lithium etc.

[@Supernumerary]

Katz- I believe that China did restrict export of rare earth minerals to the U.S.

[@ClemensKatzer]

@Supernumerary Oh? Haven't heard that. Not enough then yet to be a headline?

[@PandaPanda-ud4ne]

@@ClemensKatzer ....because actually, rare earths and minerals are pretty commonplace in the world, the USA also have them, China does not have a monopoly on them, it is not like gas or oil, lol. I think somewhere in scandinavia a giant reserve of earth minerals was found more or less by accident a few years ago, lol.

[@vincentb2175]

The problem for China when it comes to advanced chips is that it takes extreme innovation, entrepreneurial effort, and advanced free thinking and a willingness to change quickly. This goes against China’s work ethic in that they are excellent copiers, excellent at doing things the same way over and over again, and is great at doing it for cheaper each time. However, they aren’t great innovativors in making new things, they aren’t great at free thinking either with the ability to change an effort in advanced technologies on the fly, and their ability to grasp upper level theories and apply them in new technologies just isn’t there. Instead of working with Taiwan, the US, and European countries and relying on each countries’ strengths, they are trying to monopolize everything which they can’t do.

[@glynnec2008]

I wouldn't even credit China with being as you say: "excellent copiers". Their 'tofu dreg' products are so poor that they quickly fall apart or kill you, e.g. highways, buildings, every Temu product, melamine-laced pet food and infant formula.

[@nuevision8]

As opposed to the USA which farmed out all of their lower level labor intensive manufacturing to China & India and others for clothing like Bangladesh etc...and the USA still expects to maintain dominance and monopoly in STEM fields... It's just a matter of time... BRICS is growing and developing a new global trade currency. The USA Petro Dollar dominance isn't going to last forever. The average age of Empires is 250 years. USA Empire will be 250 years in 2026. Granted, it's very similar to the Roman Empire, and different in technology, but what happened to them ? Corruption. Overextended military. Foreign occupations. Heavily taxed citizens. We can either continue the status quo of competition or develop more cooperation. Dysfunctional instability of economies & wars isn't working for the 8.6 billion people of Planet Earth. Control of Markets is an illusion. Interest, Insurance, Taxes, and Inflation are all a Giant Grift by Governments & Corporations. All Religion is Fraud. Thanks for reading my TEDText.

[@chriswirges5202]

I don't know what China's outcome will be, but the market itself will simply relocate. That's business

[@cmontes7961]

They will catch up. Its only a matter of time.

[@johnlong1100]

Yes. But when they get “there”, there will be a new place to be. If you know what I mean. I believe you are correct, but if they do not get there on their own initiatives, it will not be sustainable. The problem with China is the CCP. If you are of good rank in the party, then everything is grand. If not, you are a slave.

[@Kool6790]

Open your eyes. They're going broke because of their predatory practices. They want to rule the world. Just like Hitler did.

[@alst4817]

This is a hard engineering problem, but very far from impossible. The goal of sanctions isn’t to stop Chinese chip manufacturers, it’s to slow them down. It’s extremely naive to think these machines can’t be slowly engineered

[@MrGerdbrecht]

There is not really evidence that supports your claim.

[@alst4817]

@@MrGerdbrechtI’m not sure what your comment means. It’s widely acknowledged by the US and western security officials and researchers that the goal is slowing down chip research. China is not North Korea, stopping such research is impossible

[@MrGerdbrecht]

@@alst4817 High tech, i mean the top of the top high tech like operating systems, semiconductors, fusion, etc... is a multinational effort. Not even a 1st world country can stem everything alone. If it were the case than were are the russian CPUs. China says it developed its own OS, but reality is they took Linux after 30 years of multinational development or Android and wrote something on top and called it their own. Their solar and wind industry comes from NASA and Germany's EEG law. They have 1 billion 996 workers that compensate much and have a high throughput, and they patent much. But that is quantity and not quality.

[@alst4817]

@@MrGerdbrechtyou’re making my argument for me, dude. The aim is not to stop research, it’s to slow it down 😂

[@MrGerdbrecht]

@@alst4817 Ok then), " It’s extremely naive to think these machines can’t be slowly engineered" - That sounded to me they will slowly engineer it, whatever that means for the outcome or competition.

[@HKim0072]

To a degree, this is how the F-35 is produced. 9 different countries are involved and there are hundreds if not thousands of subcontractors.

[@tomluke647]

Yes but the difference is that America does shows go support to those countries when helping with the production of the f-35 while China likes to boast and threaten other countries thinking there will be no consequences of actions knowing that these semicon manufacturing sectors requires their help 😂😂😂 L CCP narrative

[@raheesom]

You fail to mention that Xiaomi has found their own lithography method, seemingly leapfrogging western methods.

[@andoreanesnomeo1706]

Very satisfying in-depth reporting on the semi supply chain / ecosystem.

[@ventura1957]

Chinese are very smart to copy. At this point they already understand how to create on their own.

[@deckardcain7258]

cheap propaganda... China have it already

[@franzhoudayer4700]

What a funny world we are living in. On another KZbin channel they said 2 months ago that China was on the verge of building their own 7 nanometer lithography machines. They also said ASML couldn't afford the chinese market boycott wanted by the US since it is a major customer. Who is telling the truth?

[@powermatthew8029]

I laugh, you're already predicting the closure of Chinese chip machine industries. Just watch and see.

[@guill90]

Yea, they will still be able to produce chips for our happy meals. Joking aside China will have a semiconductor industry and capture a market niche for a certain process. Like chips for home appliances. But certainly not the most high tech ones.

[@seekthetruth1478]

How are these two companies doing? - Wuhan Hongxin Semiconductor Manufacturing Co. - (Once considered one of China's most advanced chipmakers - but it went bankrupt) Tsinghua Unigroup - (Once an example of state-directed capitalism - but its financial fortunes have declined). Then there is SMIC - (This company is generations away from producing a chip like the Kirin 9000, which is designed for 5-nanometer silicon wafers. SMIC's best current chips are 14 nanometers, and it lacks the machine tools to make 7-nanometer chips.)

[@macbradley6445]

ASML should have deleted all the software on the way out the door

[@BrokenClock2U]

China: ASML?! I bought it thinking it was “ASMR”! 😂

[@glynnec2008]

I would not trust an ASMR machine from China, no matter how much TEMU discounts it.

[@_Tony.Montana]

In China, they greet themselves as " I hope you get rich" how they get rich is not important as long as they get the money.

[@RichDenman]

This is what happens when the laborer party takes power, they cannot fathom that some things require intellect, not just manpower.

[@TheChzoronzon]

They are advancing their chip industry 20x faster than us, in 5-10 years they will be there From the ITIF: "China has reached a new stage in its economic development, with much greater innovation capabilities in its universities and domestic companies-and on many innovation indicators, China now leads the United States. China leads or is on par with global leaders in commercial nuclear power and electric vehicles and batteries. It lags behind for now in other key sectors, including robotics, biopharmaceuticals, chemicals, and AI. But it is making rapid progress. The combination of low costs and growing innovation capability make an increasing number of Chinese companies formidable global competitors. While the Chinese innovation system is not perfect, it is much stronger than previously understood-and there are many aspects of it the United States should emulate." You live in a bubble of disinformation and coping, bro :D

[@RichDenman]

@@TheChzoronzon Little pink boy triggered.

[@antonmaier5172]

The engineers should praise whoever they believe in, once they are outside of the CCPs direct reach. There is a chance they will be held there by phony charges, happened before !

[@randomuser66438]

A few people dieing can throw us 20 years back in computer technology?

[@YelFlux]

Any one know if those video are true cause I keep forwarding the channel to my friend and the voice LOOK AI. does anyone know if these video are real. Thank you for anybody that answer me. Have a great day

[@ErdnußRiegel6969]

Ok wumao

[@yukmingchen6334]

As your main point is to de-spirit the Chinese , you may not succeed. If you want to cheer up yourself , you only distort your own people .

[@alariccatlett]

This only gets fixed by how you raise your children. Imagine raising a child the correct way and sending them into this world of corruption. A world of corruption within corruption.