China Today: Myths and Realities - #65

[@jamesho8820]

Phenomenal discussion! As an ABC myself, I have become increasingly alienated by the level of demonization, villification and hostility towards all things Chinese. It has become the only issue for which both political parties and president can agree upon. What is most concerning, as China becomes more successful and accomplished , the louder the vitriol and the more aggressive the economic and technological sanctions. IMHO much of the underestimation of Chinese scientific prowess may be attributed to pure racism which is further driven by obvious repudiation of the "yellow peril" narrative. In view of the strong possiblity that the eratic racist "Cheeto" is reelected, I have anxieties, that the possiblity of the reestablishment of "internment/concentration camps" for Americans of Chinese descent may actually be realized in the event of a kinetic war with China in the same way that Japanese Americans were so disgracefully treated in WW2. The current geopolitical narrative is truly disgusting and frightening.

[@horridohobbies]

Yes, Chinese-American internment is a genuine possibility.

[@wbyoung4280]

Not only STEM student surpass america. Checkout this SCMP article: Data shows average Chinese national now eats more protein than an American(Protein intake per capita) , UN food agency says.

[@siweiyang4377]

the alternative is to accept US failed at self-governing, the choice seems obvious to me 🤷‍♂

[@mishakirov4717]

The fate of the ABC diaspora however will be ignored by the CPC. Rightly so, because if they had any real influence over the country they would have had the PRC capitulate to the US a long time ago, forcing the country to continue down a path of neoliberal financialization. They also would be doing their best to see the CPC overthrown.

[@bobmorane4926]

@@mishakirov4717 Of course that's you assuming the Chinese diaspora are dummies !!! Lol. Anyone uttering such stupidity hv nonidea what they're talking abt.

[@louiselu6757]

Steve, you are so right! My husband and I both grew up in the US and are now considering retiring in China. We took our family on a heritage trip for three weeks last year and loved the energy and was so fascinated by everything that’s happening there. Would love to spend a few years in retirement exploring the entire country.

[@wengsoonyuen2086]

Good luck. Better still if you can make a one way trip there.

[@peterlim1972]

​@@wengsoonyuen2086See I was right. You claimed you went to China and you came back. Are you even a Chinese and even if you are, you must be a member of the Falungong.

[@edhom5148]

I had brought up the slavery issue in China. My cousin stated if China treats Muslim as slaves, who has a better relationship with Afghanistan. Afghanistan is run by the Taliban, a very strict Muslim organization. China has a better relationship with Afghanistan than the US

[@DocPetron]

It's beyond that. When the Uyghur issue first came out, the US coordinated a statement to condemn the Chinese treatment of the Uyghurs. No majority Muslim countries signed it. China then issued a rebuttal statement supporting China, and every Muslim majority country, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia, signed it.

[@wengsoonyuen2086]

Of course because the CCP does not care about the Taliban's human rights abuses of its citizens especially the women. The CCP loves every dictator in the world.

[@linglee7677]

As a Chinese born in Taiwan, I do not agree with the host about freedom of speech in the US and China, so how many Americans talk about the massacre of American Indians, and how many Americans talk about compensation to American Indians, do Americans and Canadians regret what they did to native Indians, I do not see it. So what does talking change? nothing. I agree with Chinese government not to encourage people to talk about things that will tear apart the society, there is always a limit to so called freedom of speech, it is so ironic just to see what social medias did to those pro-Palestine speech and video in the US, so I think Americans have lost their position to criticize freedom of speech in other countries.

[@RaymondLi604]

Absolutely oppressive suppression of speech in Ukraine: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rKCagKyojbGgqZYsi=Ru8jChg9IRA1JLXL

[@OLDMANTEA]

I don’t think anyone would stop you from discussing any of the issues you brought up in the US.

[@linglee7677]

@@OLDMANTEA The point is does discussion change the reality ? What American government do to native Americans so far? Have American Indians are treated as they deserve? no What is the purpose of freedom of speech, if speech can not make things better, then what is the value of freedom of speech, it means speech is the same as gossip.

[@OLDMANTEA]

@@linglee7677 the original point you brought up is about freedom of speech. In the US, the government won’t stop you from discussing the issues you brought up. That’s what’s the first amendment is all about.

[@linglee7677]

@@OLDMANTEA yes so in private how do you know people do not talk even they do not talk in public?

[@horridohobbies]

I am apolitical. I'd love to live in China because I don't care about politics and so-called freedom of expression. I just want a nice, comfortable life. Eat well. Live in a nice home. Drive a nice car. Watch movies or play games or go sightseeing. Why do I want to complain about the Chinese government???

[@horridohobbies]

By the way, I live in Canada. I don't complain about the Trudeau government, even though I disagree with a lot of what it's doing. As long as I'm happy, I don't really care what Trudeau and his minions do. I imagine it's much the same in China. Life in China is pretty good. The government isn't bothering the Chinese, so everything is copacetic. FUN FACTS: ■ 79% of Chinese believe their nation is democratic, while only 57% of Americans and 55% of British do. [Source: Latana's Democracy Perception Index 2024.] ■ 85% of Chinese trust their government, while only 40% of Americans and 30% of British do. [Source: Edelman Trust Barometer 2024.] ■ 76% of Chinese trust their politicians, while only 29% of Americans and 20% of British do. [Source: Open Society Barometer 2023.] ■ 91% of Chinese are happy with their life, while only 76% of Americans and 70% of British are. [Source: Ipsos' Global Happiness 2023.] ■ 95.5% of Chinese are satisfied with their government. [Source: Harvard Kennedy School in 2020, "Taking China's Pulse."] ■ 95% of Chinese believe their country is on the right track and moving in the right direction, while only 41% of Americans and 23% of British do. [Source: Ipsos' What Worries The World survey from November, 2019.] ■ most Chinese strongly support their political system. [Source: UC San Diego's China Data Lab since 2019, "WHAT 16 WAVES OF PUBLIC OPINION SURVEYS TELL US ABOUT CHINA AND CHINESE VIEWS."] A few years ago, Pew Research conducted Chinese surveys to show the level of satisfaction for their government. In 2002, 48% of Chinese were satisfied with the government. In 2005, 72% were satisfied. From 2006-2016, this number was consistently over 80% year after year! The Chinese have spoken.

[@hypocritehater1673]

Don't you feel bothered to see to LGBT issue?just kidding🤭

[@RaymondLi604]

​@@hypocritehater1673Chinese Canadian EE here. I'm more amused at the cross-dressing skits shown on Cantonese Fairchild TV where it's obviously comedy. Pride parades... not my thing, but avoidable, tolerable 😅

[@gstlb]

You don’t so that’s fine. It’s not so great for those who feel wronged. It’s also not great for Christians, but if you’re not religious it’s not a problem. Why don’t you try it?

[@bleargh22]

That's fine but a stable economy where you can have those nice things depends on strong institutions and free debate - single party autocracies never last. Also the movies you get to watch and the general culture surrounding you will be mostly boring censored propaganda. To truly live the human spirit needs freedom.

[@KhelderB]

When I was in Chengdu this summer almost every vehicle was electric. Even the large trucks collecting rubbish/trash.

[@poksnee]

Steve, this is the kind of insightful material I enjoy from you. Thank you.

[@linglee7677]

I have been to China a couple of times to different cities and plan to go again in the fall, I like the most about China so far is the fresh air and quiet traffic on the roads, the air pollution and noise by traffic are very bad in Taiwan due to over 10 million vehicles everyday, I really hope the unification of Taiwan into China soon , so someday I can go to China by train instead of all the hassle of taking planes.

[@kooisengchng5283]

If you travel to China frequently, you will realise that china is visibly different with each passing year. The general governance is better and the pervasiveness of technology is amazing. When you fly from NY to Shenzhen , it is like flying from a 3rd world country to a first world country.

[@horridohobbies]

FUN FACT: According to the CWTS Leiden Ranking, China has 16 of the top 25 research universities and 26 of the top 50. The USA only has 5 of the top 25 and 12 of the top 50. So if you're Chinese and you want a strong STEM education, it makes sense to stay in China. Unfortunately, competition is very, very stiff, so some Chinese may still choose to go to the United States and pay the exorbitant tuitions and costs. Such is life.

[@kooisengchng5283]

It is the competition that makes China great. Students learn to cope with stress, intellectually and socially, so when they move into the work force, they will surge forward better than their colleagues who are non Chinese. This in turn makes Chinese more distasteful because of the colour of their skin, aggravated by official propaganda.

[@wbyoung4280]

Talking of china’s travel videos, Dr. Wang’s travel vlog is my favorite. It shows a china that outsiders who have only been to chinese cities don’t understand and how diverse China is. 10/10! www.youtube.com/@littlechineseeverywhere/videos

[@ianclark9598]

My suspicion is China has already overtaken the US in AI. We tend to underestimate how quickly China can move.

[@wengsoonyuen2086]

Yes in their dreams. If they have ALREADY overtaken the US in AI then there is no need for the US to put an embargo on advanced AI chips on China. Please fact check.

[@horridohobbies]

In America, there are certainly topics that people are reluctant to discuss for fear of conflict or heated debate. They'd rather just chill. Examples? The Russia-Ukraine conflict is one. Some people support Russia; some people support Ukraine. This can make for a most uncomfortable discourse. Ditto for the Israel-Palestine conflict. Some people support Israel; some people support Palestine. This is dynamite. People have been heavily censored in these areas of discussion. In China, people are free to discuss anything except for politically sensitive topics. This is no different from the United States.

[@Time4Peace]

I was posted to work in China for about 3 years from 2013 to 2015. The experience was mind blowing! From a highly polluted environment, high corruption and food scandals to a much better overall situation. Then, the property boom was at its peak. A whole area of old low rise residence were torn down, and hundreds of multi-storey blocks of apartments rose in unison storey by storey day by day!

[@oldernu1250]

Yup, and the CCP princelings and local government apparatchicks got their vig when the tofu dreg buildings passed inspection. China has built twice the number of housing units it now occupies--and it's birthrate is .8! The wealth of two generations has been squandered by central planners on empty apartment buildings and uneconomic high speed rail.

[@horridohobbies]

@@oldernu1250 China built housing for the future in anticipation of more urban migration. In hindsight, this will prove to be a smart play.

[@wf645]

@@horridohobbies That's because China has succession and continuation plan of policy, even when Xi steps down. As compared to the Flip Flopping burger flipping policies of US and the Western democratic societies. And by virtue of the continuation of policy, hence allowing China to catch up quick and will eventually surpass.

[@peterlim1972]

​@@horridohobbiesTrue. In Singapore we did the same. Built and people will buy. Not doing so will create social problems for the CPC. You must be aware that when Deng Xiaoping visited Singapore in 1977 or 1978, he was impressed with Singapore's development. 1000s of Chinese officials above the rank Mayor we're trained in Singapore.

[@bobmorane4926]

Steve, there have a few accounts of american entrepreneurs (some ABCs) moving to China to take advantage of the chip and tech embargo to start their own startup in China to get immediate access to the Chinese market and thus bypass the American embargo. Can you pick up any such stories and bring it to us ? Thanks.

[@wengsoonyuen2086]

And pick up the generous CCP subsidies for the semi conductors and AI startups. Do you think the CCP is so stupid to grant non Chinese so called entrepreneurs residence and subsidies so easily?

[@georgesiew6203]

The narrative around the Chinese housing bubble is terribly wrong. The way most uninformed people put it, is that the Chinese have been growing their economy through pushing a housing bubble and now the bubble pops and they have to search for a new source of growth. This is a completely wrong depiction that lacks economic understanding. The main way that the Chinese grew their economy was always through industrialization and moving up the technology ladder. However that is not the end of the story. You must close the economic loop by answering the question of "What do you do with the massive surpluses generated by that growth?". A good way to illustrate how this works is with an example. Imagine a town gets a new factory that creates a ton of new income for the town. The factory is the source of economic growth but the town must then decide what it does with all the new income generated by the factory. Does it build a mall to absorb the new income? Or does it build a new apartment complex to absorb the new income? The economic loop only gets closed after all the new income is absorbed by new activities. So while the source of growth was the initial factory you will see GDP increase not only from the factory but also other areas. Here it is crucial to understand that the factory is the bedrock of the town's economy and as long as that is productive then the town's economy can withstand the other activities not working out. So so long as the factory income is still there to support the town, if the apartment complex doesn't work the down can just replace it with a new mall instead. This example now lets us explain China much more clearly. What generates the fundamental income in the Chinese economy is the highly productive industrial sector. The Chinese government was inexperienced and took things for granted. They thought that the income from the industrial sector would be automatically used productively by the other sectors. Unfortunately, this has not been the case and some sectors like residential real estate have been using that income very unproductively. The housing crash then is not destroying some source of income but removing a drain of income. This is unequivocally a good thing that will make the economy grow faster (and not slower) in the long run.

[@davidchou1675]

Excellent analogy!! I've simply been explaining that Rocketship China is merely ditching its real-estate boosters, is all -- but yours will appeal to folks who want a more real-world analogy!

[@Time4Peace]

The US could have tapped on the STEM manpower from any parts of the world but it has chosen to isolate itself instead. This bifurcation of "us vs them" is certainly speeding up the multi-polar world provided the US doesn't provoke a war in the process.

[@0thPAg]

Apart from China there's not really any other good source of capable people. Africa, Indonesia, India - basically nothing there.

[@handaxia1251]

If I were a STEM graduate from China, I would think twice to work in US, in the current political climate, where I could be easily accused as Chinese spy or get shot by some random racist. It's just not worth it.

[@davidchou1675]

​@@handaxia1251The problem is that they may not necessarily be able to find a job (just you try competing with a million new STEM grads every year!), or one that they want ("996"), or they just have natural youthful wanderlust to see the world....

[@iwanagohome326]

This is my first time watching this channel.....very commendable! Thank you!

[@sycamorewest]

As a CBC living in Beijing right now, happy to attend any meetup Steve you may be having while you visit, as it has been a long time since you've last visited. As for the discussion in 53:00, the way I would describe it for Westerners in a 'neutral manner' is simply that different cultures have different Overton windows. For high-context cultures, you would also have adjustments to that Overton window depending the situation / people you are with. Using a binary terminology such as freedom / censorship actually lacks nuance of looking at the issues. There is a forum for discussion / feedback / criticisms in but one does have to jump through more mental hoops to deliver it in private conversation, and even more so if you are to be broadcasting a view.

[@scottnovak4081]

This episode was great. I will send it to a few China skeptic friends. I'd love to see you talk with economist Noah Smith. He also seems pretty realistic (ie bullish) about China's comprehensive nation power and has made the same analogy that we would be "Japan" if we got in a long war with China.

[@davidchou1675]

lol wut noah smith is peter zeihan-adjacent in his lack of basic knowledge and numerous bad takes -- including predictions!

[@linglee7677]

About TSMC, please do some readings, the government of Taiwan at that time when TSMC was created, was run by Chinese from mainland China, led by the son of Chiang Kai-shek.

[@davidsu2202]

Steve, thank you very much for talking about so many positive introduction about China in current circumstance about China vs USA competition.

[@factorousfactorous3522]

Very interesting discussion. I believe that, the more powerful the country, the less they will know about others. You talk about the West not understanding China, but most Americans wouldn't be able to place Germany on a map if their lives depended on it. Most Europeans have learned to talk English, know about US history, and can place the US on a map ! I feel that for some people it is almost a status symbol to not know anything about other countries, since it shows how much others are irrelevant. A strange luxury belief ... The West might pay for this arrogance, or change course, only time will tell.

[@linglee7677]

Since two gentlemen talked about education and the score ranking, I think both of you missed one very important thing that is unified college entrance exam in China and US does not have that, so the ranking of score is to let students know how competitive they are and the possibility to get into college.

[@gstlb]

The USA does have this, it just doesn’t totally determine where you go to college, or whether you can go to a good college.

[@Time4Peace]

When the US now deems China as an enemy, won't it be natural for more topics to be become sensitive in conversation between Americans andcthe Chinese, even among friends?

[@KooisengChng]

US is building a wall of paranoia around itself. 60 yrs ago we had a different view of the West. Today that brainwashing is being eroded by the West itself.

[@KooisengChng]

US has built a wall of paranoia around itself wrt China. Everything about China is evil etc. As long as this persists US will be left behind.

[@Alex-ig2xr]

My observation about Chinese government system is when you use college entrance exams and government entrance exam, you automatically disqualify the weak. If the people in the government are very qualified, you don’t need free speech and elections to guarantee the outcomes of capable governing.

[@stewartbone4236]

I live a normal life in China. Excellent lifestyle, normal job way better than in Europe for me. Travel easy, eat well, get what I need and no issues. Politics is never discussed, no need. Yes, there are some changes in the markets but I’m not affected.

[@firstlast-pt5pp]

@1:01:25 - for various reasons, racism is a big factor ( mainly self-interest ). For example, no reason why Caltech is ranked so low in research. And most of the IP transfers to China are done by non-Chinese.

[@0thPAg]

Great podcast, certainly my favorite out there, and also so good it's demonetized. Or.. did you simply turn it off ?

[@fergal2424]

did you see that backyard he was showing off, the house, and that lake? I don't think the guy needs the ad money hahaha

[@horridohobbies]

FUN FACT: According to Population Pyramid (based on UN data), China’s population in 2075 will be 1,029,035,604. America’s population in 2075 will be 389,390,579. China’s working-age population (20-59) will be 412,563,029 *which will be larger than the total US population!* In 2100, China’s population will be 766,673,270. America’s population will be 394,041,155. China’s working-age population will be 300,826,825. America’s working-age (20-59) population will be 176,590,202 and if you include up to age 64, it’s 199,708,902. *China's working-age population will be 50% larger than America's.*

[@rodmeisterful]

Very helpful and qualified observations, thanks.

[@alfaeco15]

If it really leads to new innovations, it will be an interesting thing to see.

[@alfaeco15]

It may be a Spur for competition.

[@Mia3HD]

Just back from Shanghai month ago, & when we ( me & my 18 year old son ) exit from MSP airport, my son said oh, our cars looks outdated , 😔

[@aslampervez2294]

Thanks

[@KennyL0009]

These people may wait until their children are adults and go back.

[@firstlast-pt5pp]

@1:03:10 - Chinese are less likely to fire/back stab especially mainlanders.

[@idofdm7625]

I've been US for 40 years, and I've not voted once! From my youth I've always have a cynical view of political system anywhere including USA, in US you may categorize me as libertarian in terms of political view and I know the system is rigged against that so no chance of that kind of politicians to win! So why bother! Did US allowed me to prosper? Yes! But for most Americans who're uninformed or educated, it's just being a slave to our system, living pay check to pay check, earn and consume! Do you wonder US GDP is 70% consumer-driven! Then you understand why our government and media have to propagandize so much to still fool it's citizens into thinking how good they have it here😢

[@fannyalbi9040]

"It can burn you out" for incompetent mind, YES.

[@KooisengChng]

Steve visited Singapore. Is he aware of self censorship in Singapore

[@johndinsdale1707]

I really enjoy your thoughts on chips, however I would really like to know if there is a market for these Chinese chips. Which current player will lose market share. Nvidia, broadcom, Qualcomm, meditex , AMD, Intel, Apple. As far as I can see is China using 3rd party suppliers to 'acquire' A100 beating sanctions? So in order to employ Stem 'Rockstars' you need to sell something to consumers, what do you think that will be?

[@tutulam-melanson9074]

Because Chinese like Mathematic and Measurements

[@jintaitang8740]

Well done, interseting and penetrating.

[@yezih2694]

Pro Hsu, what is your thought on the recent suicide of Chinese molecular biologist Jane Wu(吴瑛) from Northwestern University.

[@yunzhang9471]

Although both trying hard to be objective, there are so much westerners stereotypes about Chinese Asian society in the discussion 😂bro might be phd in physics, definitely not expert in society history or politics

[@HarshNerf]

Man everything the guy says is a good thing in chinese culture sounds hella dystopian and crazy to me - can't imagine forcing kids to live that way. lots of similarities with indian culture tho

[@danxie-mg8yv]

There are going to be about 8-9M newborns in China in 2024, and 3.6M in USA. It's not as many as you think in the future.

[@banana-st1fq]

for next 20 years, young entrants still 17m. the cliff you mentioned is 20 years later when new borns grow up.

[@qake2021]

👍👍🇧🇷🇷🇺🇮🇳🇨🇳🇿🇦➕️👍👍

[@qake2021]

👏👏🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳👏👏

[@georwoogle]

✌✌✌

[@PhongLe-od6fo]

"They have TSMC." You speak as if Taiwan belongs to China.

[@horridohobbies]

The United Nations says Taiwan is part of China. Heck, even the United States says so! And Taiwan's own constitution says so, too. Denial is not a river in Africa.

[@PhongLe-od6fo]

@@horridohobbies Sure, little pink.

[@horridohobbies]

@@PhongLe-od6fo Yep, you are a true intellectual with great debating skills. 🤣

[@proy7248]

@@PhongLe-od6fowell, if you or anyone else can beat the PLA, Taiwan can be an independent country. Until then, STFU.

[@StephenHsu]

"They" refers to Nvidia: Nvidia uses TSMC to fab their chips. Listen again. Note: This is a reply to the OP @PhongLe-od6fo 16 hours ago "They have TSMC." You speak as if Taiwan belongs to China.

[@yezih2694]

why do you say 5 year plan in such bad tone? 5 year plan has been a wonderful thing for China, and there is nothing terribly about it.

[@yezih2694]

why do you say 5 year plan in such bad tone? 5 year plan has been a wonderful thing for China, and there is nothing terribly about it.

[@StephenHsu]

Most Americans think of failed Soviet 5-year plans, not successful PRC plans! It evokes the idea of central planning that doesn't work very well.

[@yezih2694]

@@StephenHsuThanks for the clarification. Most of the Chinese 5 year plans has been achieved since founding of the PRC, expect briefly in the 60s due to internal and external issues.