Chinese Cultural Breakdown of Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings

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[@XiranJayZhao]

What did YOU think of Shang Chi? 👀

[@The_swagiest]

It was swag

[@jovindsouza3407]

It was tolerable. Nothing more and nothing less.

[@Strawwberri]

It was fun.

[@Pridekun97]

I actually enjoyed the movie so much! What I DIDNT like was how Wenwu was sent off in the end like cmon bro 😭

[@anaydeb9480]

Amazing

[@Danny.._]

shang chi's mom meeting a 2000 year old warlord: "i can change him"

[@kingmanic]

As a bad example for all girls: she did.

[@seriouscoffeecup5516]

Same story as Castlevania

[@Isabelle-hv6ny]

@@seriouscoffeecup5516 She also did

[@Isabelle-hv6ny]

@@kingmanic I mean he clearly loved her and never did sth against her if I remember correctly. Some people are willing to change some are not

[@izzy1356]

@@seriouscoffeecup5516 To be fair, he didn't go "warlord" until AFTER she was murdered. 😅

[@ihavenoclueeither]

The idea that Wen Wu was just sitting in the background thinking of new ways to fuck up the government is absolutely incredible.

[@Blackcanvasart]

I also love the idea that he isn't strictly affiliated with china and that he just exists to be the chaotic neutral

[@tompotter8703]

Immortality does things to you.

[@Ali-bu6lo]

@@JazzStation95 If him being snapped away is unacceptable for you (though it doesn't affect the movie at all if it did happen) there are two possibilities: First, he survived by chance but the more interesting option: since the ten rings are teased to be related to very powerful and important characters, maybe the celestials or Galactus, maybe the rings protected him form the infinity stones.

[@paisleesheppard5629]

@@Blackcanvasart he's probably taking a break for a couple of generations until he knows exavtly how to become the next world leader of [pick one, the world has plenty 'world leaders'] based on the generic copy paste tendency of history. 😅

[@luantib]

Wen Wu looks at the newspaper about World War II, take a heavy breath and says to himself "maybe I girlbosssed too close to the sun this time"

[@inasaira8380]

the implication is that katy can but does not want to get a better job. she's afraid of failure. hence the "“If you aim at nothing, you hit nothing". honestly i find this character relatable. i graduated from a good school and wasnt able to get a job in my field so i kind of stopped trying and convinced myself i was okay where i was so her attitude makes a lot of sense to me especially if your parents have really high expectations of you which i image katy's parents do since she's asian.

[@brianng8350]

Not sure if Xiran reads the comments, but I was going to explain to her too. Katy is an Asain under achiever... smart, but not living up to her full potential. As Katy said herself, she gives up before she can fail.

[@Ikajo]

I also don't understand people complaining about a Marvel movie, being... a Marvel movie. Like, the whole concept of the MCU is that they are connected.

[@inasaira8380]

@@Ikajo exactly lmao. thats the point.

[@Ikajo]

@@magellanthecat That's your opinion. It is not a fact. I like all of the movies, some more than others. For me, the movies being connected is a huge part of what draws me to them. You don't like them. That's fine. But that doesn't make them inherently bad. Of course Shang-Chi will be connected to the wider MCU. Because Shang-Chi is a Marvel character. Who is introduced into the MCU after some major events in the movie universe. Complaining about a Marvel movie being a Marvel movie is like complaining there is lightsabers in a Star Wars movie.

[@Ikajo]

@@magellanthecat People have widely different opinions about the different movies. Some people loved Thor Ragnarok, others hate it. The latter would likely call the movie weak. There are people who hated Infinity War because Loki got killed off. Some hate Endgame. I loved Captain Marvel, yet others thought it was crap. Same goes for Ant-Man, Black Widow, The first Avenger, Doctor Strange. Even Spider-Man Homecoming. That's why they are opinions. Not facts.

[@user-qx5du6xg4f]

I'd just like to say, from my personal interpretation anyway, Shang Chi is completely justified in saying that their mum would be disgusted with the man their father became. It's shown that she clearly loved her family and her children and while she could see beyond his past I'm not sure if she as a caring mother could forgive him for fracturing their family and abusing their children when she gave up so much for them and tried to protect them.

[@maygirl1595]

YES EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING

[@ThanosDestroyeryearsago]

She was fine with Wenwu killing untold hundreds of thousands at the very least.

[@haku8135]

I mean she didn't do shit to protect her family either. Seriously, what happened to start the main conflict of this entire movie? His wife died. How did he fall in love with his wife? Because she was basically the only one who he couldn't just instantly wreck with his magic bracelets when we see clearly he can dominate ARMIES with ease. So his wife was killed by a handful of ordinary humans that I'm just going to assume don't even know martial arts because they walked through their secure compound's OPEN FRONT DOOR and just killed her easily. THIS WOMAN CAN FIGHT ON PAR WITH A MAN WHO CONQUERED THE WORLD WITH MAGIC BRACELETS THAT ALLOW HIM TO FIGHT AN ARMY OF MEN ONE VS A HUNDRED THOUSAND AND A FEW DICKHEADS EASILY JUST MURDER HER! She doesn't know these guys will just LEAVE when they kill her, they might go after her children, who let's remind ourselves DO NOT KNOW HOW TO FIGHT YET, so they are HELPLESS if these guys want to gut them. Wenwu isn't like very close by or anything either, he's GONE, out shopping which he doesn't have servants for apparently, and he gets back much later when the men are long gone. So this bitch doesn't give a single shit about her kids, she didn't do a damn thing to protect them, they just got LUCKY the men decided killing Wenwu's wife was enough. For some reason. Didn't even set his garden on fire. And you can't say she was just that out of practice, Shang Chi was completely out of practice for a similar length of time and he has no problems defending himself from MUCH stronger foes when he's presumably MUCH weaker than what his mother should have been. You cannot establish a character to be as strong as the main baddie and then be easily killed by nobodies. That's like if you wrote a story about how Supergirl's Kryptonian mother came to earth with her and then Kara became Supergirl because her mother was shot and killed by a thief who broke into their house, and Kara wasn't there to defend her because she snuck out to go to a party. SHE'S BULLETPROOF YOU IDIOTS YOU CAN'T KILL HER WITH A REGULAR DUDE! Everything about this movie is just sooooooooooooooooooo fucking forced and stupid. So no, I'm pretty sure his wife would forgive him immediately because she already forgave thousands of years of pillaging, rape and slaughter, which remember he DID try to do to her and her people as well. Since she didn't give a shit about her kids either, that will at best be a night sleeping on the couch.

[@kuliosw4815]

@@haku8135 They explicitly stated she lost her power when they left the village, so it's really just an ordinary woman that still managed to put on a fight with a dozen armed man. Also wasn't the reason the man didn't got to the child that she still somehow manage to kill most if not all of the invaders in the house? She literally died for her child lmao dunno what you want more my guy.

[@haku8135]

@@kuliosw4815 It wasn't one man, it was a group that just walked in through the OPEN front door. If she LOST her powers by leaving the village (she wasn't IN the fucking village when she had her powers, and it's retarded that her powers are fucking LOCATIONAL for no reason. But whatever.) then she would be basically defenseless. Without her bullshit magic she's just an ordinary woman and they're a good dozen armed men. So the fact there's NO fucking security defending her when Wenwu is out fucking shopping (again why the fuck is he even out shopping? And at NIGHT!?) shows how few fucks ANY of them give about their own or one another's safety. Like there's fucking KIDS in the house, and they didn't even put LOCKS on the front door! Anyway, she did not kill them all, cause first of all, DEAD. Second of all, if she lost her powers, HOW COULD SHE KILL EVEN ONE OF THEM!? Lastly, Shaun was trained and then sent out TO kill the men that killed his mother, and after he did it that's when he ran away for some reason. Cause doing it was fine, but going back for his sister first? That was a step too far. Lastly, let's say she somehow kills all but one of them, and then this fucking champion offs her. There's NO sign of backup coming, so he has FREE REIGN of this place. Why would he just STOP and leave? Why wouldn't he finish the job? The excuse only works if she killed ALL of them, but took too much damage and died from her injuries. We KNOW that's not what happened, because Shaun is specifically sent to kill the men who killed her, and then left, because they very much did NOT die. So here's the specific scene. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e6fUZZqdqchjhbs Ok so first of all, yeah they just stroll right in, NO security. Fucking retarded, this would NEVER happen. There'd be alarms and armed men running out the second they got within a MILE of this absolute fucking demon's property. Second, it's implied she does still have her powers with the movements she's making. You don't do movements like that or take a stance like that unless you've still got the magic that actually makes it useful. In that case, literally all of these men should be dead. Side note, it's ABSURD to the extreme THIS MANY men could just stroll onto his property. Anyway, these men combined are LAUGHABLE compared to the power Wenwu could call upon that she stood up to easily. To the point that he fell in love with her because of it. Third, we see a very clear shot of the battle after it's over. There's TOPS 5 bodies not including hers, and we can see the entire area. There were over a dozen men there, so they straight up overpowered her easily, murdered her and then just DECIDED not to do anything to the kids, not even kidnap them which would be VERY valuable, and left it at just that. Honestly if she doesn't have her powers I don't even know how she managed to kill FIVE whole fully grown and clearly strong men before her dumbass just got shot. If she's not superhuman she DEFINITELY can't just kill people by PUNCHING them. People don't die that easily, especially not when it's some 100 pound scrawny chinese woman who hasn't thrown a punch in near on a decade. Which would imply she DID still have her powers, in which case she should destroy them all. This scene, as well as the rest of the movie, is a total MESS.

[@rhysfayne2221]

I can't tell if you missed it or deliberately decided to not mention it but there was an end credit scene that showed Xialing taking over her father's empire. So in the end, Shang-chi and Xialing did end up splitting things from their father.

[@miche8868]

I’m guessing they weren’t expecting two end credits scenes

[@Thareldis]

@@JazzStation95 I really liked it, especially due to her really making the Ten Rings her own and giving the organisation a personalized touch and making it inclusive to skilled women such as herself. It was an organic development.

[@kindateia]

it's not the same, really. Shang Chi gets actual power and she just... Sits in the shadows without any development for her character

[@Ramipon]

@@kindateia they inherited something from their parents. Shang-Chi inherited the physical rings from his father and used his mothers fighting technique Xialing took over her father's organization and applied her mother's training philosophy (we all train together)

[@Thareldis]

@@kindateia noone said that it is "the same". Both got the ten rings, Shang-Chi the weapons and the responsibility to wield them properly and will most probably lose them soon in the MCU timeline, because they seem to be drawing something evil towards them and Xialing got the ten rings organisation and merged it with her own. She wanted to belong somewhere and be taken seriousely, which she as a youn girl wasn't. She wasn't allowed to learn her fathers fighting style, which she did anyway by watching (reference to outdoor students) them train and later probably taking her skills to the test, learning that she has to work even harder and spar more and even got good enough to defeat her brother easily. Her story at least partly is about how she worled hard to achieve a sense of belonging, gain power and leave jer mark and with her version of the organisation ahe can do exactly that.

[@waddledeeart6019]

I'm a fan of the MCU so I'm biased, but I absolutely loved Shang Chi as a Chinese Canadian! As always though, Xiran makes some very good points on how they could have improved the film. I do have to respectfully disagree with the ending though, I really loved it. In my opinion, I think Wenwu let himself die after he confirmed that his wife wasn't behind the door. He probably knew she wasn't there, but never would have forgiven himself if there was even the slightest chance it was true. Thus, after he found out for sure, he just caved in. He couldn't face the truth that he was wrong, and also gravely hurt his children. I think the look he gives Shang chi when he passes on the rings conveys that. It's a silent apology and admittance that he was wrong, tragically all to late. Similarly to how he said avenging his wife was shang chi's right as a son, I think he let himself die because he believed his son was worthy of the rings and his time had come. (He would make matters worse.) As for the inheritance, I think it was brilliant. Shang Chi gets the rings because he has the most memories of his mother (the techniques she showed him for how to use them) and Xialing gets the other "ten rings" the organization, because she has more experience running a system like that. If Xialing took any rings, I imagine people would think she would repeat her father's power hungry actions. So it seemed fitting that the inheritance was split down the middle. "Ten rings" for both!

[@JustGrowingUp84]

Yes, good points. And considering the ending scene with Xialing, as well as what she achieved in Macao, she very much seems to be more her father's daughter.

[@waddledeeart6019]

@@JustGrowingUp84 It's a nice twist of irony since it was the opposite when they were little. When they were kids, Xialing said she feels like their mom is watching over her. Shang chi says he never feels that way. Xialing tries to get him to stay, he doesn't listen and follows their father like a robot. After the shock of actually murdering someone, Shang chi ends up being disgusted by his father and tries to reject him as much as possible. On the other hand, Xialing who had her trust broken is forced to take after their father and fend for herself.

[@JustGrowingUp84]

@@waddledeeart6019 Good point, I had forgotten about that.

[@dingle2987]

I was secretly hoping WenWu would havegave the rings away slightly late. So the rings would have kept him alive without a soul so he could come back in the sequel as an even more evil character and Shang Chi would have to destroy him, but oh well.

[@waddledeeart6019]

@GiRayne Agreed, I think shang chi is a very refreshing take on a hero. He's conflicted and afraid, and just wants to pretend his past never happened so he can live a normal life. I love that when he finally confronts his past and makes amends towards his sister, it all starts with the belief that she is in danger as well as Katy and the normalcy he's built in America. After running away for so long, he confronts his greatest fear in order to protect what little individuality he's managed to build in America as a normal guy who can enjoy normal things, not a hit man. His arc to me was accepting what happened to him as a child, accepting that he was his father's and mother's son, and that although his father loved him, he still hurt him deeply. I think that message was really important. You can acknowledge that your parents loved you, but you're not obligated to believe that how they hurt you wasn't wrong.

[@NinjaxPrime]

My question is did the Ten Rings and Hydra know about each other or were they always just sort of passing each other like ships in the night through the whole 20th century?

[@Misadventures_85]

I'm wondering the same thing. I would like to see Wenwu's reaction to Hydra going across the globe so quickly

[@jeffreygao3956]

My guess is that they occasionally clashed but mostly kept to themselves.

[@alfonzo4553]

I mean it’s kinda fitting considering hydras kind like the nazis and the nazis stole that Buddha symbol and used as their own or something

[@YanBaoQin]

I.P. Man sounds like a copyright lawyer

[@RenegadeVile]

@@jeffreygao3956 Only you're writing the movie for them. It makes zero sense for Mandarin to have had as much influence over the world and its events as the movie implies he did. Major world building inconsistency.

[@noneness]

My parents always preferred drinking luke warm water instead. Saying that cold water was bad for your health. So when you compared the movie to luke warm water I thought you were complimenting it and saying it was good for your body 😂

[@Emiloid]

I don't think Wen Wu's death is lazy - I think it was actually devastating, because this was the first time he actually recognized his son as his own person rather than an extension of himself, and he felt the only way he could step up for his son was by dying. I also think he craved death in that moment because his purpose - finding his wife - was gone, and the fight had gone out of him. It's particularly sad because he and his son will never truly able to resolve their issues

[@cas2762]

On one hand I can understand these motivations from the in universe perspective, but I am SO SICK of the “death as substitute for redemption” trope. I love redemption arcs. But they should be that - arcs. One grand act doesn’t redeem the character. It’s a cheap way to tug on audience’s heartstrings as the “ultimate sacrifice” when in reality it’s the easy way out of writing a compelling and complex narrative for a character.

[@Emiloid]

@@cas2762 Personally I don't think Wen Wu redeemed himself here necessarily, he just allowed himself to die. The tragedy of his character is that he leaves things unresolved with his children

[@materla4102]

@@cas2762 Not every sad death has to be a redemption. I haven't met much people with the opinion that it was a redemption. Only people who are angry that that is not a redemption. Yeah. Who are they even arguing against?

[@Nergalsama01]

Originally, Wenwu was supposed to survive the end battle. Which would've been nice. I mean, more Tony Leung is never a bad thing. And I would've been curious to see how a redeemed Wenwu would've interacted with his children. Ah, well. At least we're getting more Xialing as new commander of the Ten Rings.

[@dr.braxygilkeycruises1460]

@Emiloid, I 100% agree with you!!! Those were my thoughts, too.

[@Garbaz]

I love the line "I've eaten more salt than you have eaten rice". It's subtle enough to take a second to understand, which only adds to the burn, but I think straightforward enough to be understood in the moment. They definitely should have included it.

[@TF_NowWithExtraCharacters]

I agree, it's a great way to put someone down (though I hate it when it's used on me lol). For reference, there's another line that's commonly used together with (or to replace) this line: "I've crossed more bridges than you have walked."

[@JohnZ117]

I think it was for western audiences. Salt has become really cheap, and put on *everything* one can eat, so it's entirely possible that a lot of people have eaten more of it than rice, so it has likely become obsolete, and not relatable to modern audiences.

[@BonaparteBardithion]

@@JohnZ117 Rice being less prevelant in Western (or at least Hollywood) diets also makes this likely. That'd still be an awful lot of sodium, but the comparison to rice isn't as strong.

[@tuyetb3753]

i don't get it 😭

[@TF_NowWithExtraCharacters]

@@tuyetb3753 You don't get the line? So rice is a staple food for Chinese people, you'd basically get 1 bowl a meal, minimum. Whereas salt is a seasoning, so you might a few teaspoons worth for all the dishes in the meal, split among however many people at those meals. Imagine how many more centuries he would have lived for that to be possible. This is a culture that heavily emphasizes respect for seniority and experience, so it's essentially a way of saying "know your place." The fun thing is that most people who use it mean it metaphorically, but for Wenwu who's immortal, he's not even boasting, it's factual.

[@josephjarosch8739]

Weirdest thing about the Marvel lore is that we have fantasy-immortals in China and sci-fi-immortals that apparently never knew about each other.

[@capoeiranger]

Once Wen Wu realized that it WASN'T his wife calling him from beyond the grave, he chooses to 1. Gave the Ten Rings to Shang Chi, as he FINALLY realized during the fight, his son will do BETTER with it. And 2. He chooses death, knowing it's the only way to cure his longing for his wife, and (spiritually) the only way to meet her. I think it's a romantic death. Look at Wen Wu's eyes at these last few seconds of his life and you will realize this. This is Tony Leung's signature craft!!

[@Yuunarichu]

Xiran saying Tony Leung should've spoken Cantonese is what I hoped since even though my grandma is fluent in Mandarin, but since Tony Leung is from Hong Kong and Fala Chen spoke Cantonese well too, thought it would've been nice. But then Simu Liu wouldn't be able to communicate with them. Lol.

[@bradcha5413]

To be fair he's an actor, tony is from Hk but his chacter (wen wu) isn't exactly

[@lailahuang4575]

Yeah, the only issue about using Cantonese is the fact that two major actors, Simu Liu and Meng'er Zhang, both don't speak canto. Other than those two, I think everyone else that has lines in Mandarin also knows Cantonese. Off the top of my head, I think Fala Chen, Michelle Yeoh, Tony Leung, and Yuen Wah should definitely know canto.

[@shemmy7078]

Oo that's true, but i guess they could have used Cantonese for all the scenes that took place in the past with the parents and stuff for the "ancient(?)" kind of feel? Maybe it would've been confusing but man, Cantonese is a beautiful language and I'm sad they didn't include it.

[@christopherwilson88]

And Michelle Yeoh doesn't natively speak either (her native languages are English and Malay), but her Cantonese is significantly better than her Mandarin. She didn't even know any Mandarin when she starred in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and had to memorize her lines phonetically.

[@AliceSiuASK]

@@bradcha5413 imo doesn't really matter, speaking Cantonese in ancient scene is more accurate than Mandarin since Mandarin is a much more younger language

[@inasaira8380]

i felt like this was the one time i actually liked the "reformed by love of a good woman" trope. i think its because the movie does suggest he really wasnt involved with the ten rings until she died which means he was having some legitimate character growth and was a legitimately good husband to her and not just her constantly having to "teach" him how to be good.

[@JohnZ117]

Only crime I saw was attempted cheating at DDR. ;)

[@scfeng6883]

Agree. I like that it showed Wenwu devolving back into being a warlord after her death, showing how he is responsible for his own character growth, not his wife. She inspired him to be a better person, but you can't undo thousands of years of habit in one decade. ANd even though she was fridged so hard, I like that the movie made sure to include scenes that showed who she was so that we understood her to be her own person and why Wenwu was so devastated by her death.

[@inasaira8380]

@@scfeng6883 exactly. despite her fridging she feels like her own person specifically because of the influence she has on shaun's development when he takes the rings from his father using the same abilities she used.

[@Maehedrose]

Yeah, not all tropes are bad all the time. I thought it was done well in this instance and really showcases how devastating it was for him to lose her - how that loss shaped his life afterward. One could argue that they fridged her but I don't buy the argument that fridging is a bad trope; any trope is only good or bad based upon how well it is used.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@inasaira8380 I also kinda believe that the rings speak to him/corrupt him. This type of trope has been done worse in the past, I give this one a pass

[@jacoba6747]

Gotta love how Wenwu lived for thousands of years and probably has experienced and learned so much but never bothered to question his sanity when he started hearing his dead wife

[@ebonyloveivory]

🤣🤣🤣

[@samuelwolch1302]

Inability to process grief does that

[@robopope7584]

If he lived for thousands of years, he probably wouldn’t be too sane by then.

[@ppjctotoro]

Because Chinese fathers believe they are always right! (Speaking as an ethnic Chinese person living in Singapore)

[@sage_in_palmmall5301]

I love how you continuously refer to Wen Wu as Tony Leung, it honestly makes it so funny thinking about if he actually did these things

[@vadalia3860]

I didn't think the dad blaming the son for watching while his mother died was something he actually believed intellectually, more that it was one of those illogical ideas brought on by grief that we know aren't true but still can't help thinking. Shang probably similarly blames himself for his mother's death even though both men know there was nothing Shang could have done. The father just brings it up to emotionally compromise his son in the fight. Shang's words probably have more truth to them as while the mother did fall in love with someone she knew used to be evil, he was supposed to be reformed and a good father and he'd never been a threat to the mother's home. Since her death, he'd gone back to his evil ways, become a shitty father, and now was directly threatening the mom's hometown & birth family.

[@MerelvandenHurk]

I agree. In moments of intense grief it's really common for people to either blame themselves, or to shift blame onto others to avoid dealing with they own guilt. And the fact that Shang-Chi blamed himself while his father blamed him is also in line with their personality types, since altruistic people are more likely to blame themselves and self-centered people are more likely to shift blame onto others.

[@materla4102]

Yeah, people on edge doesn't have to always act logically

[@chubomikz7104]

Yeah, they were in-the-moment jabs meant to cause the most emotional pain to each other possible that everyone has or has wanted to do in an intense argument before, not actual, in-text reasons for why they're upset with one another.

[@maxventunosei5017]

Shang-Chi* not Shang 😅

[@raima6877]

Agreed. He was trying to hide from his grief and guilt by shifting it onto the innocent but he knows he didn’t mean it.

[@SkwithOv]

oh no - better help is really awful actually please consider watching a video that was recently posted by Mickey Atkins (about not taking a $1,000 sponsor deal) Totally not blaming you or anything but the company is really gross and prioritizes money over the wellbeing of both their customers and their therapists and exploits both as well as selling your personal data, which is against what therapists are typically allowed and is totally immoral

[@SkwithOv]

it's okay if you didn't know but just for the fututre

[@melowlw8638]

i was looking for a comment like this!! ty hope it blows up

[@merinowool555]

Was about to comment this, so glad someone else brought up how better help sells your data to third party companies.

[@doodlebrain6594]

I’m glad someone brought this up

[@the_homun_system]

yeah definitely dont blame people who need to make a living off sponsorships or have.. somehow??? had a good experience with the service but it is definitely still as bad if not worse than 3-4 years ago when everyone was talking about how bad it was.

[@MrTsubasanoneko]

Yes I agree that Shang Chi's personality is luke warm at best, but like, it kinda makes sense? The dude grew up in a cycle of feeling guilt then run away. He felt guilt about not helping his mom, then turn to training as a form of escapism; then he got guilt from killing the dude that killed his mom, then run away as well. He probably didn't even have time to develop a personality, which kind of requires people to face their hardship. He found his resolve near the end of the movie though, so it could be fun to follow the character. But yea, I wouldn't say that this is an "origin" story, more like a starting chapter.

[@stillnotstill]

I feel like this is a good point as to why it might be that way. I hope they do develop his character more.

[@TheRealSpellstar]

One of my favorite things about this movie is how the first scene makes it clear that they aren't going to explain why the ten magic rings exist or where they came from; because this movie isn't about that, it's about the guy who has had the rings for so long he knows exactly WHAT they do, and what he chooses to do with them

[@Chigou]

Technically, "Talo" was a reference Daluotien which is the highest realm of the Daoist 36 heavens. Marvel originally used it as the Chinese version of Asgard where all the Chinese gods lived. I am guessing that when the MCU decided to do away with "gods" and made Thor just an alien, they needed to repurpose Talo for something else. Mythological inaccuracies aside, "Talo" does have some Chinese cultural basis.

[@PrettyGuardian]

In Shang Chi they made the people of Talo sound like Asgardians in the sense that they were a highly advanced, powerful spacefaring race. So it gave me the impression that they were analogous to each other.

[@FadzaiSimango]

Thanks for this explanation 🙂

[@FadzaiSimango]

And yes, it seems that when Thor was adapted into a highly advanced, slow ageing, extraterrestrial (whose people blur the lines between sci-fi and magic), the other earthly gods of Marvel Comics were done away with or remixed. Most of the pantheons (real life mythological figures adapted for the comics) don't seem to truly exist in the MCU, including most East Asian, South-east Asian, African, Western European, Oceanic and North/South American pantheons. _Eternals_ shows us that, between the various members, it seems they directly inspired the Greco-Roman, Mesapotamian, Mesoamerican and possibly South Asian and Celtic mythological pantheons. It's also possible that they influenced some Egyptian figures and various Indo-European beliefs.

[@ldsgermanshepherdboy9272]

I think that would've been cooler though. Chinese mythology is pretty dope. On par with Norse, Greek, and Egyptian mythologies:3

[@Ali-bu6lo]

@@FadzaiSimango That isn't the case. The panther goddess Bast has already been confirmed since the Black Panther after life seems to be real and the first Wakandan king was guided by her. While in the comics and mythology, Bast is an Egyptian goddess as well. We have the Moon knight coming up which will show us the Egyptian moon god Khonsu. And finally, Russel Crowe is cast as Zeus in Love and Thunder. So maybe most gods were real but were killed by Gor the godkiller.

[@KatrynaCeniza]

Marvel really should've explained what the hell Wenwu was doing for 2000 years. If he was the most powerful person, why is he working in the shadows? How is he not like The Supreme High Emperor of the world? He's literally had thousands of years to conquer it several times over.

[@ruckusroke]

Because it's more fun to come out the shadows every hundred years or so and 'take over' the world from those who think they run it, rather than be the head huncho that just crushes down every uprising before they manifest

[@dingle2987]

He probably have into capitalism and decided money was more powerful for him.

[@davidcheater4239]

I think there's a big difference between 'conquering' and 'ruling'. Ruling tends to be really boring.

[@deee6095]

I’ve always felt like true power doesn’t need to be broadcasted. All the orders are taken from the most unsuspecting low key person.

[@david4rancibia34]

@@ruckusroke yeah but marvel never explained that, didn't even give a hint of that, thats your interpretation, if that character actually said this in the dinner table for intimidation it would've been awesome, and a nice building of of crazy the character actually is

[@AshenVictor]

4:50 My theory is that there are so many different secret societies and groups (Hydra, the Ten Rings, the Eternals, etc.) pulling the strings from behind he scenes in the MCU that they have mostly just all frustrated each other and had no net effect on the course of history.

[@RevanSurik]

About Shang Chi's personality... well, MCU heroes aren't known for being deep, so I never held him to a high standard; but I think it's unfair to say he's that shallow. I think he's the focus of an interesting conflict (which the film doesn't develop that well, but then again, it's the MCU) between different forms of power. Shang Chi's father embodies violent, destructive, conquering power, and he expects his son to embody the same - which is, in my view, a big part of why he's frustrated that his son didn't do anything against his mother's killers. Shang Chi was just a child then, yet his father expected him to be able to kill human beings. His mother, however, embodies peaceful, protective power. She fights when necessary, but she cherishes life - and knows the burden of taking it. Which is part of why she had Shang Chi hide even when their home is attacked: it wasn't just to protect him, but to spare him from having to kill someone. Throughout the film, Shang Chi tries to escape the legacy of his father, but ironically that's all he knows - something that is reflected in his fighting style. It's fitting, then, that he only manages to defeat Wen Wu through his mother's fighting style. Personally I see this conflict as a discussion (again, quite shallow, but still) on masculinity, specifically as the opposition between stoic, destructive hypermasculinity (as embodied by Wen Wu) and masculinity that knows to embrace ways often seen as feminine (as embodied by Shang Chi's embracing his mother's style), such as passiveness and protectiveness. He doesn't even "get the girl" in the end (another common development for traditional male heroes), unlike other MCU heroes like Iron Man, Captain America, Thor and Spider-Man (I mean, he and Awkwafina's character are just friends, right? I don't recall them showing any hint of having something more intimate). It's kind of ironic that the less traditionally "alpha-ish" male heroes are always considered boring, though. Like Aang, who's often considered less cool than angsty scowling Zuko; or Newt Scamander (from the Fantastic Beasts series), whose greatest strength is his compassion and understanding; or even Luke Skywalker, who's often considered less cool than tall hunky rogue-ish Han Solo.

[@gulliverthegullible6667]

I don t agree with the notion that Marvel does not have deep characters. The motivation and character flaws of many characters are quite interesting. Eg. Peter Parker is held back by his sense of responsibility. He could have achieved so much more if it wasn t for Spider Man. Or consider the fact that the police isnt happy with the way he fights crime. In order to make some money, he has to work for a man who hates Spider Man. Or look at Iron Man: An arrogant engineer who got rich by selling the weapons he built. His inventions cause disaster, and then Tony Stark claims credit for fixing the problems he had caused himself. I guess it is out of guilt that Tony Stark is also an alcoholic. Dunno, I think those characters are pretty good for superheroes. A lot better than the DC ones, imho.

[@RevanSurik]

@@gulliverthegullible6667 Are you talking about the comics? I was referring to the MCU in particular. Also I strongly disagree that Marvel characters (in the comics) are better than DC's, but that's another debate :P

[@gulliverthegullible6667]

@@RevanSurik even though they can t get as deep in the MCU as they get in the comics, I still think they do a decent enough job. A superhero movie is not a psychological drama and shouldnt be treated as such. At the end of the day, we want to see cool superfights and not endless heartfelt dialogues when choosing such a movie.

[@RevanSurik]

@@gulliverthegullible6667 One thing doesn't negate the other; it's possible to have emotionally powerful scenes and psychologically complex characters in a superhero film - just check Nolan's Batman trilogy. The MCU learned to add complexity to its characters, but it took its sweet time to achieve that. Loki was the first character to show an interesting level of emotional complexity (and, ironically, imo his apex as a character was The Dark World, an otherwise unimpressive film). The Bucky x Steve dynamics was really good too, and Civil War has some strong moments, character-wise; Thor's meeting with Frigga in Endgame is one of my favourite scenes in the entire MCU (and the moment Mjöllnir comes to him is the icing on the cake). But then we have a swarm of painfully unimpressive, shallow, even boring villains (Vanko, Yellowjacket, and Kaecilius immediately pop in my mind); female side characters who do little more than be the romantic interests for the main hero (like Strange's romance, whose name I even forgot; Jane Foster in Thor 2; Sharon Carter in Civil War; and Pepper Potts post-Iron Man 1).

[@gulliverthegullible6667]

@@RevanSurik I agree with you. It is hit and miss and in the comics it is better. I just disagree with you when it comes to DC and Batman. I think that stuff is way too cartoony and I have no clue why so many people obsess over Batman.

[@cheezemonkeyeater]

"I've eaten more salt than you've eaten rice." I'm still parsing that one, but I think the implication is that you eat rice every day (it being a dietary staple in China, I believe?), but you eat very little salt with each meal, so if you've eaten more salt than someone has eaten rice, you are saying you've eaten A LOT more meals than they have. Correct me if I'm getting this wrong. Either way, I like how that sounds. Although, in America, that wouldn't really mean anything, since our grain staple is wheat and corn, while we oversalt EVERYTHING.

[@moonlightboyz6410]

yep basically the older has eaten more meals than the younger referencing they're older

[@carnage2332]

I would have preferred the original line as an American. I feel like you could have put more stank on it, plus it sounds like something I'd imagine an immortal saying.

[@celestetran]

I think salt is also a reference to hardship -sweat?-

[@moonlightboyz6410]

@@celestetran yep

[@lilyl.6715]

@@celestetran honestly that’s what I thought too. The salt meaning a hard life and the rice meaning an easy one (or at least one where u don’t go hungry). But I’ve never heard the praise before (as far as I know or in English) and op’s explanation makes sense

[@ningning2023]

Your comment about how they should have used Cantonese over Mandarin really resonated with me. I think that it's very easy for the west and western born Chinese people to lump China into one homogenous group when there are actually a lot of very distinct ethnicities and cultures under the umbrella of "Chinese". (*disclaimer, I was born in the west and knew very little about my cultural background for the majority of my life) I am Hakka and I have met very many other people (including myself at one point) who also call themselves Chinese who have no idea that there are even sub-groupings "Chinese". Which is an experience I think many people who are not simply "Chinese" have the luxury to be oblivious to. I am different from you, you are different from me and similarly different from everyone else. We should acknowledge each other as such. Our cultures, while different, are interconnected and I think I would like to see these incongruities explored more as a baseline for western media. I think it is impressive now that we can have a movie so tied to the Chinese Mainland American experience. Going forth we should broaden our horizons so that we stop defining Chinese Culture as these very rigid set of customs and experiences when there it's more similar to a colorful and bright Pandora's box of niches and specificities that differ not only from culture to culture, but person to person. Through the western view we have had a few starting experiences like this but I believe it is integral to shed the western view all together and explore the world through the eyes of those we don't see often.

[@deshpandeneha6540]

As an Indian (Marathi) and someone who lives in Hong Kong, I totally get you! Often get asked if we speak "indian" when it doesn't even exist... India and China have so many ethnicities but people often lump us as this homogenous group. I really hope that western media will start to acknowledge that Asian countries have a plethora of cultures with unique customs and traditions.

[@srtatropicalia]

I totally agree with you (and found your comment really interesting to read!) and I'm not trying to dismiss the stuff you said in the slightest, but I think we should keep in mind that American cinema has its limitations and will probably only keep giving us the American perspective. This sucks, because Hollywood is dominating the market to a point that it is deemed as an "international cinema" of sorts, but it's still from the USA and the stuff they focus on is more on a chinese-american/asian-american perspective. In my country, national productions are still generally seen as "less than", and unfortunately it is not so easy to influence the entertainment industry to function how we want it to. I'm kinda looking at it through a pessimistic lens, though, and I'm not dead set on this point of view, but it's how I look at this. American films will inevitably make movies set on other countries, be it bc of its perceived exotic nature or bc they remembered other countries do exist and want to do well on that market, so well be stuck on that not quite satisfying view of our cultures being broadcasted.

[@ningning2023]

@@srtatropicalia I don't think you dismissed anything I said and I think you give a valuable perspective on this! I agree that American movies will always have an American lens, no matter if the film remains tactful or not. It's a hobby and passion of mine to research culture (not just my own) and the more I learn the more I have become aware of how my western background fits into global culture and how it affects others. This is what I think I want from Hollywood now. I'm not saying I want an American movie about the daily life of a person in Norway. I just want American big cinema to express self-awareness and modesty when showing other cultures to convey to its viewers that there is more than what they are showing you. I would also like thoughtful and well-researched decisions that come through for viewers to appreciate. Beyond being Hakka, I am also Japanese and white and where I was born and raised has given me an even more distinct cultural identity than "Asian American". To the point where even with all this "Asian" branded media representation, I've never really felt represented because there has never been any person with a similar background to me in a big film. Not even a person that has looked like me. I have never been discouraged by this fact, perhaps because I am very comfortable and love how my cross-cultural upbringing has made me different. I don't know if what I'm saying is getting across or if I even truly know how to go about achieving these goals that I want. But for example, I think that a lot of Asian American and Minority centric films have come across with the tone that they are an encapsulation of what the culture is. In Shang-Chi's case (*another disclaimer, I have not seen it yet), I agree with Xiran's opinion that this should have been executed in Cantonese. From what I infer about the movie (again, haven't seen it yet), is that some circumstantial things made it so that the use of Mandarin felt notably strange and off-putting in the context of the movie. Perhaps they could have even used a clash between Mandarin and Cantonese to really exhibit another part of the Chinese experience. Maybe Shang-chi could read simplified Chinese but when he went to sign the contract, saw that it was in traditional characters with Cantonese grammar, then didn't understand it and didn't know what he was getting into. I've strayed off topic, but what I'm trying to say is that I just want Hollywood to make these meaningful decisions and slight alters to give what it is boasting its offering. I feel like I want a more genuine approach over a crowd-pleasing, almost escape-like one. I'm not ignoring the passion that probably went into the actors' performances and the production or even saying that people shouldn't like this movie. Overall we should just be able to see these little details that will make the movie more interesting for all it's viewers, especially the intended audience.

[@Neuromantic_86]

It's political, mandarin is the official language of the CCP they would not have accepted a film in Cantonese, a language they discourage and are trying to breed out, and therefore the film would have tanked in China

[@zer0luv]

@@Neuromantic_86 True and in the end it would not have matter cause I don't think it was even released in China.

[@chaosgnoblin]

In that scene where Katy's Grandma mentions Qingming Jie but the subs call it Day of the Dead, my mom was confused and asked me what that was about (since I speak Chinese and she doesn't). I told her that it was the Tomb-Sweeping Festival, and that cleared up the confusion, but I also thought it was a bit weird that they translated it that way. Glad I'm not alone!

[@thatHARVguy]

In 2013 Disney tried to trademark Day of the Dead, for their Pixar movie Coco. Coincidence? 🤷‍♂️

[@user-ed9qu5im2y]

I mostly agree with your critiques, just not to the level to which it impacted your enjoyment. I think that's just a matter of taste and how much weight we give to those flaws or areas that can be improved on. So I agree improving on those things you talked about would definitely make it better, but it being what it was I still really liked the movie. Just a couple random points I'd throw out there: - As a Cantonese person, I didn't mind that the people in the underground fight club spoke Mandarin. Ronny Chieng is Malaysian and the director said he wanted that place to have an international feel to it. So Ronny's character spoke Mandarin and English with that accent and he even threw in some Melayu in there. I think given the lore of that fight club - the fact it gathers fighters (and viewers) from different places and it's run by Xialing who isn't from Macau - it makes sense. But it is a huge lost opportunity to not feature any Cantonese when you're in Macau, which gives the audience the false impression that Mandarin is the main language in Macau. (Think Shang Chi said one Cantonese line "你做乜嘢" or something like that, but that doesn't count). - I really don't like the idea of "most natural sounding Mandarin", and this might be the only point I truly disagree with you on. People across China whose mother tongue is a different dialect or different language will speak Mandarin with a different accent. So I don't see the problem with people speaking "imperfect Mandarin" or "unnatural Mandarin" with different accents at all. I think that's actually a good thing. When I hear Tony Leung speak Mandarin, I love it, cause it's similar to how I speak Mandarin. (Actually I love Southern Chinese accents for Mandarin in general). And conversely, I do get it would make you happy if you heard someone speak Mandarin like you did. Which is fair. I just feel off with how you characterised it as "this is how it's supposed to sound" when they are all natural. Why should expect Wen Wu to speak with a standard Mandarin accent when he grew up in a time when Mandarin Chinese as we know it hadn't even evolved yet? And relatedly, you could ask why Wen Wu and Shang Chi and Xialing all speak in different accents when they're one family. I think fair enough, but I think that can be forgiven. - Yeah killing Wen Wu off was lazy. But I'm ok with it. Maybe it's because I already lowered my expectations after how they killed Killmonger. But also after watching so many Marvel films I just know when you have a cinematic universe, what happens to characters is influenced by contracts with actors and a whole bunch of planning for the whole film series behind the scenes. If you left him alive then there's a strong expectation from fans that Wen Wu will come back, but who knows if you'll be able to get Tony Leung again. Especially hard when these decisions were made at very early stages. So not ideal, but I can understand why. - Xialing's potential was wasted in the movie. But I'm also ok with it because I know she'll be back. One of the perks of being a Marvel fan is you change your expectations to thinking about characters over multiple movies I suppose :P

[@stevennelsonsegura5583]

I only read the last part of the comment and I wanna agree on it. O really do not like characters be fully fleshed out in one sitting if they are staying for the next ones because that feels like how it should be. I love characters being not fully explained given that I am a fan of long running series and stories that continue on the next one.

[@TheEmbessyNetwork]

This was spot on but I kinda disagree about the first half of Xialing being wasted potential, yet agree that it's a set up to see more of her in the MCU (hopefully). I can possibly see her helping out Shang-Chi in future movies with her taking over the Ten Rings. I also liked how Katy and Xialing were friendly to each other and not making them bitter or catty towards each other.

[@princekrazie]

I feel like the story of Hundun’s death means that you should not try to be like everyone else. Every animal has bodily orifices: mouth, eyes, years, nose. But Hundun’s primordial energy leaked out from his body when the two guys made orifices for him. It worked for others but not for Hundun.

[@david4rancibia34]

that was beautiful

[@batty_babette]

I want to add to that- that you shouldn't try to force someone to be what you want. After all, from my understanding, hundun didn't consent to being carved, they just did it to them by their own accord.

[@ars_moriendi]

I feel like there's a joke in there about saving/losing face too

[@TheHappyHummy]

12:40 You missed a huge part of her character arc. The whole concept behind her character was el explained in multiple conversations including those in Ta Lo, where she is afraid of committing to one thing because she isn't sure it will be fulfilling, and would rather party knowing that gives more pleasure short-term. It was a "WILL she get a job" not a "CAN she get a job."

[@thatnike2604]

As someone who has seen the other Marvel movies, I can confirm that Wenwu's past does not fit well in the MCU. He should've at least been mentioned by Captain America and Captain Marvel with that much control over the history of the world. But nope, just a super secret underground organisation that somehow was able to conquer the entire world without anyone knowing

[@cringekiller348]

Ten rings was mentioned in Ironman

[@caridadchang7895]

I feel like what didn't work all that well for Simu Liu is that they gave most of the comedic stuff to Akwafina, and then didn't give him much in terms of jokes because she is the one meant to be a comedic psychic. If they make a more equal distribution in the next film I think that Simu will shine a lot more as he is more used to comedy than drama, and that will laos make Katy's character more dynamic overall. also in the post-credits sequence they show that Xialing got the Ten Rings organization while Shang-Chi got the Ten Rings as in, the objects. So there's that.

[@tofu_golem]

Honestly, as a long-time comic book fan, I'm mostly just thankful that they made major changes to the original story because the original was full of, er, problematic elements. The original comic book was a cheap cash-in on the popularity of kung fu movies in the 1970s by Marvel. It was a Chinese character written by white guys in the 1970s and came out exactly as you would imagine. It's one of the reasons I didn't read much Shang Chi as a child. I think for Asian-American comic book nerds, we're mostly happy about what's NOT in the story adaptation as opposed to what's in it. Honestly, when Tao Lo was first introduced in the movie, I thought it was one of the Seven Cities of Heaven from Iron Fist: other-dimensional cities full of martial arts and mysticism, and travel between Earth and those cities are only possible at certain times. It turns out that Tao Lo is a Marvel location I didn't know about before. Apparently, it's Asian Asgard or something. I'm not even sure. It's definitely not one of the Cities of Heaven from Iron Fist. The comic book origin of the rings: they were created by a race of technologically-advanced dragons to control space ships. Honestly, I like a lot of the changes they made to the rings from the source material. If they are supposed to be rings for dragons, it makes sense that they would be armbands on humans. They were vague about what Wenwu was doing for a thousand years. I don't think he's that old in the comic books. The comic book character he's based on is racist (full of Yellow Peril BS), so the less they included of the original, the better. Putting actual Macao in the MCU is confusing to me because I always thought the fictional city-state of Madripoor was supposed to be a metaphor for Macao. Anyway, Madripoor is full of mobsters and spies, so it's probably for the best that the two be distinct.

[@idoazu]

thank you for this extensive context!!! i didnt read anything about him before watching shang chi so this is really interesting & gives me a new insight + appreciation for how much respect they paid to the culture while revamping his story ^__^

[@syahrezadifachri5121]

Isn't madripoor is like blend between Singapore and Macao?

[@Jumpoable]

Madripoor is like old school Singapore (back when there were more pirates than hawker stalls) & Macao put together. But they already had a piss poor Madrippor shown in Flacon & Winter Soldier cuz they unfortunately decided to film in Atlanta so all the Madripoor scenes were filled with black & white people, just made 2 Asians. LOL.

[@cupguin]

According to what I read basically the director and writer looked at the comics and made up a list of things they weren't going to do. Marvel has had pretty terrible representation of any Asian characters and a lot of that was the early Perlmutter movies and then the Perlmutter/Loeb TV. I thought Feige's decision to adapt Shang Chi of all things was nuts but he's definitely wants to show how to do a great adaptation of source material.

[@MerelvandenHurk]

They were rings that fit on human fingers in the comics, but they decided to change to hung gar-inspired arm rings because the finger rings would visually be too similar to the infinity stones on Thanos' gauntlet. They explain a lot about it in the Assembled behind-the-scenes episode about the movie (it's on Disney+ if you have that). I was also quite confused about what Wenwu, supposedly the most powerful human in history for over a thousand years, was doing all that time. I mean, the MCU world is mostly identical to ours, apart from changes that happened since the MCU started (like the attack on New York and the Snap etc.) and a few fictional places like Wakanda and Madripoor. So that would mean that even with Wenwu present, history didn't change all that much compared to ours? Or are they implying that history happened the way it happened because of him? Then how does our history fit together perfectly without major gaps that would imply the presence of a superpowerful human? I usually like it when fictional stories propose supernatural solutions to things we can't actually explain all that well, like Stargate did with the Egyptian gods etc. But Wenwu's existence doesn't seem to change anything, nor explain anything that can't be or isn't yet explained in our own universe. It didn't bother me that much though, since it doesn't take many changes to completely alter the course of history so if you'd only write fictional stuff that doesn't alter the course of history you'd be pretty limited to minor stuff. If you would actually track how history would've changed if you introduce something even as little as 50 years ago, the modern world wouldn't be recognizable at all. Wenwu supposedly being the most powerful dude ever is just a case of willing suspension of disbelief. Just like the existence of Stark Industries and their tech. With that tech, our world wouldn't look the way it did.

[@KingOfMadCows]

Part of the reason why Macau is the gambling capital of the world is because a lot of rich people in China use it to get money out of the country. In China, a citizen can only take about $50,000 out of the country each year. But rich people can gamble in Macau and get their winnings in other currencies, at which point it is no longer traceable by Chinese authorities.

[@agett12]

Economic Explained did a very good video about this.It was like watching a Sith manual on being a billionaire.

[@tetrapetalum]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the bamboo scaffolding on the building! My friends and I had no idea that bamboo was still used like this, since we've only ever seen metal supports.

[@Tracy-uj8hf]

They still use it in China and HK

[@user-ye7wb3vg7t]

@@Tracy-uj8hf only in HK

[@randomuserwitharandomname6183]

11:36 As a Mexican, I thought the same haha now I can't stop imagining Chinese people with moustaches and sombreros XD

[@EveMizgala]

I think the opening was supposed to just be a legend rather than a perfect retelling of his history. It would be a lot easier than explaining where this guy has been for the last few thousand years.

[@KRYMauL]

He was probably the founder of each dynasty then acted as a console to all the prior Emperors.

[@JubeiKibagamiFez]

10:41 In the MCU, the general population don't actually know why the snap happened. The battle against Thanos in Infinity War happened in secret for the most part. It makes sense that she would say we could vanish at any moment. It's okay. The only other time The Ten Rings is referenced is in Iron Man 1 and maybe Iron Man 3.

[@Nexdex]

They absolutely know about Thanos. Why would the Avengers keep it a secret lol

[@marymohr2799]

I feel like the general idea is that even if they do know it was Thanos, the unthinkable happened, and it could happened again

[@professorhistoire5349]

They know abt thanos and most of the big events like black widow and iron man's deaths, captain America's disappearance, etc, but not the details, like where thanos is now or why he did what he did

[@JubeiKibagamiFez]

@@Nexdex I felt like that was never indicated in any of the following movies to Infinity War or End Game.

[@FranciscoRamirez-nb4uu]

Ep 1 of Hawkeye A toilet that says "Thanos was right"

[@memeengineer9253]

The action scenes felt marginally more interesting to me than standard Marvel filler - seems like this could be credited to the involvement of Kung Fu movie choreographers. The tighter camera angles and focus on the actors' expressions just felt more intimate

[@najrenchelf2751]

The fact that Xarin noticed the detail at 13:00 is more than enough proof for how WAY TOO THOROUGHLY she went through this movie! I'm so dead! XD

[@user-nu5nv1yg5r]

I loved how derpy and weird-looking the kirins in this movie were. And - sorry if im'm being disrespectful to the culture itself - I liteally yelled "WHY ISN'T ANYONE RUNNING TO TOUCH THE ACTUAL MOTHERLOVING DRAGON", when she landed on the shore. I think, Katie isn't a drop-out because it's considered even more "shameful" to do good at school and uni and "not achieve greatness" (speaking as a university valedictorian, who chose to become a tattoo artist instead, haha).

[@AliceSiuASK]

You're not disrespecting, me as a Hong Konger I think that CGI Kirin thing looks ugly af, but then again Kirins are weird-looking in the Myths.

[@teaz3139]

In Chinese traditional myth, the dragons are like gods, kings, what have you. You're not supposed to hang with them. You're not even supposed to touch them. That's like, major disrespect.

[@user-nu5nv1yg5r]

@@teaz3139 But at least aknowledge its arrival? Thank it for helping? It seemed like the dragon was a last minute addition(

[@AznPhoenix95]

Oh man do I relate to this one. Watching the scene at Katie's house felt like watching myself talking to my parents. I was the same, did the usual academic route like all our parents make us do, and then upon graduation decided I wanted to work hands on in horticulture instead, and the amount of 'have you looked for a better job' and 'you're wasting your potential' conversations I've had in the last decade have been exhausting. Sometimes I feel like it might've just been better to drop out, because maybe then they would've just given up on the 'wasted potential, graduated with honours blah blah blah' spiels.

[@inasaira8380]

Shangs logic makes perfect sense. wenwu expects his wife to be behind the gate. even if she were behind the gate she wouldn't want anything to do with him because he has fallen back on his old ways and has attacked her village. when she ran away with him it was on the condition that he would leave his old life behind.

[@Itharl]

"There's too much and I'm tired". I'm a hardcore Marvel fan so I actually love the tie-ins, but I can still totally understand this sentiment. After watching Arcane and knowing absolutely nothing about League of Legends, this feeling resonates with me for sure (as that fandom is equally dense and full of references it would take years of catching up to understand).

[@Shane587]

I kinda chuckled at the dragon thing as a bisexual myself but in lots of fantasy media, (not necessarily Chinese or Asian) dragons are portrayed to be beyond gender and capable of adapting either human form ♥️

[@materla4102]

To me it looked so funny, like a giant Proteus (olm?). Especially with those colours. Just a huge amphibian. Love it.

[@Luyalist]

11:11 "...but the placement of the shoe rack outside the door implies way too much trust in their neighbors" 😂 Anyway, I love how I always learn a lot of new things from watching your videos! I think you summed up how I felt about the movie too, with the room temperature water analogy. I enjoyed the movie but I guess I expected more, especially character-wise, because as an origin movie I also don't feel like I know how to describe Shang Chi's personality. As for Xialing, I don't know if you missed the 2nd post credit scene or not, but she took over the Ten Rings organization! Although I'm also quite overwhelmed by the MCU, I'm still kind of a fan so I'm looking forward to see her again in the next movies!

[@ars_moriendi]

Entirely anecdotal but my upstairs neighbors do have a shoe rack outside their door. I think everyone's too bored to steal a pair of kids' boots from Target. Shang Chi leaving his Jordans out tho...

[@scfeng6883]

The shoe rack outside the door only holds cheap shoes that no one would want to steal; the nice shoes are kept inside!

[@giulianoaaronfrancoynsfran4858]

12:03 Katy said several times on the movie she liked her job and didnt want to quit it

[@humbleblatherskite837]

Ok, you mentioned Xena, so now I finally feel confident asking you to discuss the episodes where she goes to China, meets Lao Tzu's wife, and develops a lesbian subtext relationship with her, and also maybe Xena led the Mongol horde? The show plays fast and loose with dates/historical accuracy, but I'm still eager to hear your thoughts.Great video, as always!

[@1972Sylvester]

It got so worse that xena must have live hundreds of years or is a time traveler to be present at all those historical events. That was the time I lost interest in the show.

[@Passions5555]

@@1972Sylvester I lost interest in Xena after season 3

[@HanQ28]

I fully support your point about how the actors should have spoken Cantonese instead of Mandarin. Apart from it being a much older Chinese language, it would also spare me of the cringe upon hearing THREE different Mandarin accents coming from the same family: The father (Tony Leung) speaking Mandarin with Cantonese accent; The son speaking a sort of Fujian/Taiwan/Malaysia style of Mandarin accent (the actor Simu Liu was originally from Northern China, so I guess he just has a lot of childhood friends from the southern Min region who have changed his accent); The daughter and mother who kinda just speak standard Mandarin (without heavy Northern accent such as “er”, so I think their heritage is probably Eastern or Southern China). I don’t know how many of the main cast members can speak Cantonese, and I know Cantonese is very difficult to learn, but for completely selfish reasons, I just want to transfer the cringe of hearing-a-million-different-accents-all-on-the-same-family-table to the Cantonese viewers instead lol

[@HyperSensitive88]

Nope, please don't transfer that! It's so much cringier hearing people who have never spoken Cantonese in their life try to attempt it than hearing Chinese speakers who at least have some practice speaking Mandarin some time in their life. And I say this as someone who speaks Cantonese.

[@sizanix]

The accent problem is why most Chinese dramas dub over their actors' lines! Far less trouble than getting all their actors to learn an accent consistent with / necessary for the story.

[@heartlknj]

As someone who grew up watching them in Canto I think Tony Leung, Fala Chen and Michelle Yeoh could definitely be believable as being from the same general area/era!

[@hunterx2666]

i lmao, just keep ur selfishness already, imagine all the mandarin speakers hearing "different kind accent" of Cantonese at that movie, much more cringe

[@cupguin]

I mean it's not like they had a typical family. Shang Chi grew up in San Francisco and we don't really know much about his family there. Wenwu doesn't have much to do with his daughter according to her and she moves to Macau as a teenager. Wenwu meanwhile is a thousand year old warlord. Maybe they could have done something different with casting but I can accept some handwave-y accents and language choices reflect different lived experiences. Give me a What if? where the mother lived and yeah they should sound much more similar.

[@unmessable12]

Shang Chi's probably gonna end up being my favorite MCU movie just by way of how much I love martial arts films and Shang Chi being a competent distillation of the Chinese martial arts genres. I think the language issues are super overblown by ppl. Yeah the mandarin's a little stiff but there are lots of movies I love with that problem. It's way worse in Crouching Tiger and it's probably my favorite film of all time. If it were to go up against the rest of Hong Kong kung fu cinema I'd call it mostly middling but it's reinvigorated interest in kung fu a little bit and I'm always gonna be in favor of a film that does that. I'm not so pretentious of a kung fu fan that I'm gonna gatekeep a film that's making a new generation of kids interested in martial arts just because it's an MCU film.

[@chuuwars]

5:35 to be really fair, neither the comics or the other MCU movies explain the influence of the mandarim and the ten rings over history so...

[@FlorenceFox]

I really enjoyed this movie, but I can totally understand why other people may not have. I'm just kind of a big sucker for superhero movies AND wuxia movies, so it's easy for them to impress me, I think. Plus, I really love nine-tailed foxes, and this movie has some of the most gorgeous ones I've ever seen put to film.

[@cringekiller348]

The movie was great. Matter what these pseudo Chinese cultural preservers say.

[@MrDrewwills]

Not related to the video, but just started reading Iron Widow today. Loving it, for a young persons first publish novel it's doing A LOT right. I knew I would love giant Chinese themed magic mechs, but I didn't realize just how much I'd love it and the world you've created.

[@nightshadetq2453]

I just finished iron widow and I loved it so much

[@Ali-bu6lo]

My theory is that he ruled for a time but eventually got bored and decided to be active in shadows, or maybe he alternated between these different ways of life every now and then. It's possible that he tried to changed the world but eventually got apathetic.

[@kingmanic]

He does seem more a bandit king than a ruler. He wants to smash stuff and take riches; not settle tariff disputes and court politics.

[@Ali-bu6lo]

@@kingmanic Indeed, though even that can be boring after a while. So he possibly have ruled in the past at some point but he didn't find it interesting. Mister Mxyzptlk in the Superman story "What ever happened to the Man of Tomorrow" is a good analogue. He's an immortal being who has alternated between different ways of life. He does nothing in his first 1000 years, then he's heroic for another millennium followed by being a trickster and eventually a villain.

[@bryannkam]

@@kingmanic Yeah, he was more of a kingpin than an actual king.

[@KRYMauL]

@@kingmanic I think he was founder of each dynasty and maybe a console, but he mostly worked as a crimelord.

[@amyg9518]

I really enjoyed the movie, I think mainly because it was a nice break from the ugly, war-based look of the vast majority of other Marvel movies. It was beautiful. I do think Shang-chi was adorably playful, but when his mother urged him to take what he was taught and make it his own, I had no idea what that was meant to look like or how his personality clashed with either of his parents. The impression I really had of him was that he was a young man whose childhood abuse had led him to suppress his own personality (it's safer that way), except when he was around Katy. However, I couldn't tell a difference between his early suppression and his supposed openness post-character-development. It seemed like Katy was still the only person he could be himself around. I liked the development of his relationship with Xialing. It was very relatable, and Marvel movies seem to be made up almost entirely of only children. It was nice to get some siblings in there. However, for a character arc supposedly about him becoming himself, that his happy ending with Xialing was about him embracing his expected role as older brother in a protective, self-sacrificing way, fell flat. I'd have preferred to see her conquer her resentment of him on her own. I thought Katy was different from most Marvel sidekicks? Again, a matter of relatability. I agree she would have been better as a dropout.

[@cringekiller348]

Majority?? Delusional comment. Most marvel movies look great.

[@luluviana9602]

I too had a problem with the final fight. And the friend being suddenly a talented archer after like, 8 hours. A pleasure to watch your videos, as per usual.

[@cringekiller348]

The target was way too big. Even an inexperienced archer can shoot it. And her videos are overwhelmingly negative.

[@arseniyarsenicum7518]

The thought of burning a paper covid vaccine in order to send it to your deceased relative makes me so emotional... It's a way to say :"The world is getting better... Wish you were here..."... And it is so...Human to me... I need to learn more about this tradition...

[@colleennewholy9026]

It's a common thing, among "ancestor worship" Native people here in the America's do such things as well, as I've done it many times in my life If not by fire, food/offerings are offered to the water (in wholly eco friendly materials), and if not by water. Then by burial And if not by burial, then by placing inside a free/at a foot of a tree Etc

[@elizabethlai4952]

Someone better be writing that post-car-crash amnesia fanfic for Wenwu. I will definitely consume it for real. 😂

[@Coufu]

Being a 2nd gen immigrant whose parents were from Toisan, I never cared about my Chinese heritage and history much until I watched your videos. My parents were typical Asian parents too (impossible to please, esp as a musician myself), but now that we’re all old and they’re retired, I’m listening to their stories and struggles (holy shit how are they even alive), and your KZbin channel has come at a time now where I’m just fascinated by everything I missed out on ignoring my Chinese heritage for most of my life. Thank you for the really fun videos and sparking my interest in Chinese history and culture!

[@unaanguila]

Thanks for sharing the analysis of the movie. And Happy New Year!

[@aidanlanz3114]

Yeah, some of the story and character development was a bit awkward but overall it was still an entertaining and charming movie. Also we stan Katie 💅👏😆

[@ItsAVolcano]

Really good seeing you doing another video, love these kind of videos where you get a chance to learn about the history behind cultural references, rather than getting lectured about why the film scenes wrong. For future breakdowns, have you considered doing the Cathay faction for Total War: Warhammer 3? The faction is straight up ancient fantasy China, Warhammer in general is getting more popular and given the history of Total War there will likely be multiple DLC trailers to do follow-ups.

[@anitatereszczuk3967]

I mean, Cathay has existed long before the game :P I think it first appeared in the miniature war games. Besides, it was also available for FRP. So, the lore gets even deeper

[@StygianBeach]

@@anitatereszczuk3967 Yeah, goes back to the 80's. They early stuff needs to be read with understanding that is was made in the 80's, but there is not much content. What is happening now with Warhammer TW 3 is finally fleshing things out after a 4 decade wait.

[@AshenVictor]

@@anitatereszczuk3967 Cathay sort of existed, but it was something that was never really fleshed out it was just "far away and foreign"). They're now making it into a fully developed part of the world with its own characters and lore.

[@anitatereszczuk3967]

@@AshenVictor Hm, I feel like it was more developed. Perhaps because I found a fan-made expansion for WH4 that allows you to play as humans from places other than Reikland and they did write quite a lot about Nippon and Cathay :D

[@AshenVictor]

@@anitatereszczuk3967 There have always been a few things, like the idea of the Dragon Emperor, but it was never actually firmly established whether that was a title or an individual, a cathayan version of the havoc in heaven was part of the lore, and that their primary antagonist was Tzeentch, but beyond a bit of flavour to use in the roleplay game (and even then recent editions of it) they've never had anything really. They've never had so much as a supplemental army book, never been used as a setting for stories, no official named characters, etc. And I suspect that they have been filled in now is primarily because of Total War Warhammer 3 needing another good guy faction alongside Kislev (because good guy factions tend to get played the most). The fact that Total War Three Kingdoms was super popular in China probably helped (the top rated comment under the Chinese localised version of the trailer on billibilli is "I guess we know what happened to the Three Kingdoms team").

[@Orynae]

I finally read your book last week and it's so good! Not gonna lie, I went in skeptical of a "youtuber book", but I was completely wrong... I loved it! I don't think I ever read a book with such a constantly angry protagonist lol, it was intense :D

[@swrry_bae1012]

YOOOOO i had a whole class about it at my highschool some weeks ago and during the debate after it i used a lot of your videos as source material !! was waiting for this one sm lol

[@fearydog]

Yessss, I had the same complaint about Wenwu's death, like OK, you got SOME kind of resolution with your son, what about your daughter who stayed with you forever but you completely neglected??? I was so glad that in the end she took over the organization AND added women to it, but I wasn't satisfied with how her character didn't get more presence.

[@ebonyloveivory]

SAME. He spent all his life pretty much ignoring and glossing over her and he never recognized her for the amazing person she was. I am sick of that chinese tradition where they prized boys over girls. It is ridiculous. 💁🏻‍♀️

[@queenarialya]

Now it is modern times

[@BrendonLee]

I think that was intentional that she didn´t get to resolve her feelings with her father and that will play into her character arc in the future.

[@fearydog]

@@BrendonLee if so, that would be great then, as long as its not something left in the back burner like Blackwidow

[@MH72077]

You should do Crazy Rich Asians, I would like to get your perspective on the differences and similarities between the Chinese Singaporeans and the mainlanders or Han Taiwanese. 🇸🇬🇹🇼

[@tianshiisdead]

Big agree although I'm pretty sure Xiran is hui lol

[@paulaaquino]

Up!!! I really want a video o Crazy Rich Asians!!!

[@TF_NowWithExtraCharacters]

A little hard though, as far as I know Xiran doesn't have much knowledge of the Singaporean side of things. Most of their vids are commentary/critique on the authenticity of the movies, can't do that for SG Chinese if they don't have much knowledge in the first place

[@Nyxelestia]

Xu Xialing and Xu Shang-Chi DID split their inheritance: "Ten Rings" is the name of both a mystical object of power *and* the globe-spanning criminal empire. Shang-Chi took the first one, Xialing to the second one.

[@bitterjo]

I absolutely LOVE your analysis and YOUR TOP IS AMAZING!!

[@isabellaearnhardt6380]

I had a horrible experience on better help granted that was before they made sure the people on the app were actually therapists. My new therapist disagrees with better help. Luckily she only charges 20$ per section. Some things to consider if you want to use it.

[@jmd9402]

4:48 actually, one of the questions raised about this movie if this organization would have to compete with both hydra and the red room from black widow for behind the scenes secret society

[@merijn4440]

Maybe they're all just chillin together? Like, having meeting between the three to see what havoc they're gonna release on the world. Like "how 'bout we shoot Kennedy now?" kinda conversations

[@Danxoxox]

I always really look forward to your videos! They’re so interesting and entertaining. You’re such a delight to watch, I always get so excited when a new video pops up on my newsfeed 🥰

[@tonyflamingo6681]

i love your ginko leaves sweater holy cowww!!!

[@kindateia]

23:19 YES! I rambled about this to my friends in the theater. What a scene it would be if in the moment he holds her from the fall five rings slide from his hand onto hers, and then they could fight together in synchrony... It would just be so awesome, why the hell not

[@emm1h]

11:25 this was then correctly translated in finnish because there was no mention of a day of the dead only about "Tomb-sweeping day"

[@chalkish4855]

Iron Widow has been on my list of books to buy since I found out it existed, didn't know you were the author! That's so cool, definitely bumping it up the priority list Xx

[@DrJonTam]

Great stuff Jay. Interesting you read 20:17 as a qilin as well (which I identified in my video) but then a commenter suggested it's a longma, which actually seemed a lot more feasible than a qilin. And agreed that Tony Leung's death was deus ex machina.

[@mandysberi]

Berkeley Alum here: she can graduate with honors without writing an honors thesis if her GPA is higher than 3.79.

[@windywendi]

Just to point it out: it is indeed true that Cantonese preserves more characteristics of ancient Chinese than Mandarin, but there are features kept by Mandarin but absent in Cantonese, such as distinction between sh and s, ch and c sounds. By the way, Chinese people 2000 years ago didn't talk like Cantonese or Mandarin AT ALL.

[@shadowrosegx]

I love these videos. Watching your interpretations of different cultures is the best part of youtube.

[@luxepheray3692]

I saw you through KZbin recs and love your videos, but then I realized you're the author of Iron Widow!!! I've been looking forward to reading that book ever since I first heard of it. I'm so glad I found your channel :)

[@OtherBlueGirl]

I am 100% with you on the tired ass trope of a woman’s love “reforming” a bad man. So boring!

[@hoppytoad79]

I totally didn't get Shang-Chi's mom falling for his father. That whole thing struck me as a weak point because his mother was such a strong woman who Took No Shit, so what would she see in a man like Wu? Yeah, he stopped being Mr. Evil for her, but...I dunno. I had trouble with that. I honestly thought that after she kicked his ass that first time, she'd tell him to GTFO and not to come back unless he wanted more of the same.

[@ruckusroke]

Agreed. Even as a guy I thought it was weird, but it does actually mirror real life in a way. I've ended up dating a few women who 100% didn't give me the time of day when we first met - I imagine then that a 000 year+ emperor might have some charm

[@marymohr2799]

I mean, when you think about it, she didn't really reform him. The second she was dead, he went back to his old ways and abused both their children. He was only happy if she was alive. I think if anything this could be a warning. He was an evil man before, and he ended up being horrible to their children. She couldn't permanently change him, and couldn't erase what he had done, and she was killed because of his past actions.

[@biazacha]

@@marymohr2799 yep is a cautionary tale rather than the trope; Tony and Pepper would be a better example.

[@david4rancibia34]

and this time it's taked to the extreme, she was supossed to be like some kind of enlightened monk, peaceful and gentle, and He was literally a genocide who spent thousands of years fighting wars and killing people for the sheer joy of it. the power of love isn't THAT strong

[@nyauwu7662]

you pretty much perfectly described exactly how I feel about the movie. this was well-done like always. now I wanna hear what u think about red panda next when it comes out

[@Raspieberry]

You mean “turning red” that movie looks so cute

[@heavenly2k]

This was an awesome video. It'd be great if you mentioned around what time periods the dynasties you mention were active. Its awesome seeing your channel grow 💛

[@caspenbee]

I learned so much! Also the embroidered ginko leaves on your clothes are beautiful!

[@happyslapsgiving5421]

1:08 "They quickly fell out of casual use... *as quickly as the dynasty itself did!* " 😏😏 _Insert Supa Hot Fire meme here._ I've never seen someone more proud of delivering a sick burn to people who have been dead for centuries. 🤣

[@bigdognuniff]

I'm glad you picked up on how the sister could've done more in the final fight. I really felt she was under used.

[@cottonclouds]

i really loved the music in this one. especially the tracks in the final fight scenes!

[@TeddyBruises]

I love these videos so much! You make learning history fun and I'm always so excited for your videos 💖 Would love to see you do a video on the female pirate leader Ching Shih (Zheng Yi Sao) bc they're story seems so interesting! No pressure tho of course x

[@shawnyang435]

I lost it at the Chen Jianbin playing Liu Simu’s dad part… hahaha…in the movie, Michelle said that Shang-Chi “looks like his mom”, and I was like, nope…And, yes, the dragon in LAY’s music video for “Lit” looks so much better!

[@daltongibson1033]

Shang-Chi is the first movie of it's kind that I've seen, so I don't have a reference point to compare it to other Chinese (or Chinese-inspired) action movies, but I thought it was really fun and a great MCU origin movie. I'm not against the MCU structure, and I actually find it really enjoyable, but I'd probably have watched Shang-Chi independent of that. I also love that they included creatures like the Fenghuan and Qilin (Sorry if I misspelled those names, I'm NOT good at romanizing Chinese words and names) because that's the sort of thing that prompts nerdburgers like me to look that stuff up and have their minds blown learning new things about cultures they didn't know as much about.

[@KRYMauL]

Watch IP Man or Hidden Kingdom.

[@jeffreygao3956]

Actually you got the spelling mostly right except it's FENGHUANG!

[@kittenbraden9800]

Thanks to everyone in the comments for adding awesome pieces of information and for sharing interpretations and discussing! This is such a cool comment section.

[@UltraPrimal]

19:03 OMG! I love your Ninetails/Renamon Transformers OC! She looks so cute!! Seriously, that's an awesome looking design! I'd totally buy a figure of that!

[@Shindai]

Just gonna pause for a sec and cry over Brad Allen. I hadn't heard :( He was one of the people I always enjoyed recognising in Jackie's movies, seeing him pop up in random places, multiple times in a movie... he made Gorgeous as fantastic as it was. Who Am I was made possible for his doubling the Dutch dude who couldn't get the rhythm and distancing quite right.. god that's really gutted me :( RIP Brad, you legend.

[@jalvessica]

8:00 Girl, I would watch the heck out of that c-drama. I really liked the movie. Usually, in my country there is a great stigma over c-dramas, but seeing this movie in theaters with my father was extremely thrilling. I was constantly like "look, they said 好, a word I know!!" and feeling overwhelmed with joy.

[@greywolfe8012]

In the middle of this movie I was like "I'd be very interested to see Xiran do a video about this" and my prayers have been answered!

[@maelakay7897]

I really love watching these videos, they teach me so much and I find it interesting to learn the Chinese customs and culture. I'd to watch more historical videos for ancient china!

[@anaydeb9480]

Love your humor and sassy and savage breakdown of movies

[@katherinealvarez9216]

2:17 you are not wrong. Wenwu could have benefited if he took up grief counseling. And family counseling. And …a lot. He needed a lot. 5:42 that is very true. I imagined that yeah, he was something of a shadowy warlord, maybe slapped around the Hand a few times because they’re the worst. Maybe had a few years of indulgence? 7:38 you’re not the first to mention this, but you are the first to point that out. Why didn’t they use Cantonese? 12:38 yeah, Katy’s arc makes little sense, I wish they did more with her own background as a third generation from an immigrant family.

[@smolneko9294]

just watched this, and i know it wasn't perfect but one of my favourite parts was definitely seeing the animals at the end :D as for authenticity, i'm not certain about the things in it (that's why i knew instantly to go to this video), but for representation it's really cool to see certain cultural things that aren't nearly as widespread. ... so overall, i enjoyed it!

[@BanniToki]

The Kung-fu Hustle elements of Shang-Chi filled me with glee. I can't get my husband to watch Kung-fu Hustle because he has dyslexia, which makes subtitles miserable for him. The only English dub I can find is really painful. He has to be really, really motivated to watch a movie with subtitles. For the MCU, he'll suffer. I often read the subtitles to him sotto voce so he can still hear the real dialog*. This has really humbled me since I used to be a massive "subs only" kind of person. It genuinely didn't occur to me how ableist I was being. *Obviously, I don't do this in a movie theater. I don't have a death wish. I remember seeing both Kung-fu Hustle and Shaolin Soccer in the theater and I could have sworn they both had dub and sub showings. Am I misremembering this?