ChrisMD on Science vs Religion, His Recent Near Death Experience and The Meaning of Life #9

ChrisMD discusses the beginning of the universe, the meaning of life, science and religion, god, near death experiences, and when he wants to have kids...
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Our guest:
- ‪@chrismd10‬
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#italianbach #arthurtv #podcast

[@BachandArthur]

Thanks to Chris for coming on, and thank you for watching! If you have anyone in particular that you think represents a common view that we could get on (particularly if they differ from ours) please let us know. There are also some interesting scientific facts (such as evolution, Big Bang cosmology, etc) discussed in this episode so if you'd like to know more please feel free to comment below and we'll try to answer any questions!

[@Ana-mal257]

🙌

[@Maddymoo_44]

Awesome podcast. Also what is the name of this book?

[@kleee711]

Can you explain Pascal’s wager?

[@kleee711]

Do you have any creators/content you’d recommend to learn more about science and these things?

[@kleee711]

A bit random but what did you both do your dissertation on?

[@anthonyorsini]

A podcast having actual intellectual debate and discussion is so refreshing.

[@mikept19]

Where's the debate? They're all just agreeing on the same point

[@anthonyorsini]

@@mikept19 Good point, I guess I meant discussion and not debate.

[@WombatGamesChannel]

Blud most podcasts are like that. Maybe watch something else than british youtubers' podcasts then haha

[@alessiagatti590]

I love it when Bach just shows off his knowledge yet in a very calm and compose way, proving that he really knows his thing. It's so cool to see

[@JorgeRawlings]

Really starting to enjoy this running joke of Isaac being surprised that Arthur is fast.

[@Blue83149]

he really does look more like he should have a nut allergy instead tho 😂

[@alessiagatti590]

Sameeee I love it

[@Eugene141]

Heheh literally a RUNNING joke 😁

[@Kayleigh789]

The last Sidemen video, Bach described Arthur as "looking like someone who should have a nut allergy" and it had me in tears 🤣

[@matthewmccartney]

@@Eugene141damn you beat me to it lol

[@aaronlw6222]

Cheers lads. Having an existential crisis now

[@kellinkenjay7207]

its so good hearing people talk about things that are not social media bollocks

[@Icanbacktrailers]

Unlike the What’s Good Podcast

[@OK-mv4ih]

@@Icanbacktrailers there’s nothing wrong with it tho lmao. There’s a crowd for everything. People do wanna hear the bts secrets

[@reganwhittle656]

The chemistry between this intellectual trio is just top tier🤌 Best guest so far!

[@alessiagatti590]

True!!

[@rocklobstre]

having actual conversations in a podcast is so refreshing

[@jackhoole862]

I am religious and Christian and really enjoy these conversations. Theses conversations should be open and respected. For me I strongly believe science was used in the creation of the world and there is a purpose for us being here. I’d love to see religious scientists on this podcast because a lot of problems come where religious people oppose the science that is proven, or people believe one contradicts the other. Not the case in my opinion! Really great podcast and interesting!

[@rlee7389]

I completely agree

[@Llama_charmer]

Mate the amount of christians i still hear saying "the big bang didnt happen theres no proof" or "evolution is a myth" annoys me. (granted that 2nd one is a bit iffy it depends on what you mean by evolution" Whos to say God wasnt the one who caused the big bang. So many christians hear the word science and just stick their head in the sand, which is annoying because if they actually listened they would realise the sciences dont have concrete "proof" that god didnt exist, they just have their own theories on the subject, some of which are fascinating

[@Parakaruthi]

I really find discussions of science and things related to life in general very interesting and it’s really refreshing to see a podcast talk about fascinating subjects such as these with such genuine curiosity Very intriguing to watch every new episode of the podcast, keep it up guys!

[@isabe11e6]

i know absolutely nothing about quantum physics but i love listening to you guys talk about it

[@Aliceecila2121]

And when the world needed them most…they returned

[@Ionknowman.]

This was genuinely such an interesting podcast to listen to, def would love more "existential topics" be discussed on here.

[@kleee711]

I grew up Christian and cried the day my dad told me he no longer believed in god and I think it’s because he had lost his faith in something and it broke my heart to know his faith had been broken too

[@alessiagatti590]

52:18 OMG we are finally getting pictures that clarify what you guys are referring to. There have been times when I couldnt grasp references (to maybe tiktoks and stuff) so I'm happy to get this sneak peek. Yes!!

[@sarapathan6063]

this was so interesting to listen to as a muslim thank you for your voices guys

[@johnking5174]

Hi Arthur and Bach, please can you get Professor Brian Cox on to your podcast? He is such a brilliant man, listening to him speak is just wonderful. He would be great with you two on here.

[@Amy-rs7ev]

Acting like they've had the chance but turned him away lols I'm sure they would jump at it if that was possible

[@Akw4r6]

This would be insane

[@johnking5174]

@@Amy-rs7ev It can happen. Brian has spoken on many podcasts

[@MalugaaHD]

it is isaacs dream guest i believe

[@BachandArthur]

If anyone knows how we can make it happen please let us know, we’d be honoured to have him on!

[@caryscornford3477]

Bach missed the memo of wearing a top with a U.S. state written on it

[@adamwilliams858]

It's nice to see some of the youtubers out there actually have a brain. I hate seeing the interlect of a pea earning millions even though i contribute by watching. However, knowing these guys have a wide knowledge is so refreshing 😌

[@AshleighTayl0r]

Can’t not love it when Chris joins in on a podcast😂

[@rhiannarowland11]

Another great episode * tips fedora *

[@leaffairy4283]

one of those spelling things, i thought it was fledora for the longest time and still have trouble saying it without the L 😔

[@jasonericson]

This is a lovely conversation. It's interesting that the natural sciences were greatly expanded by a class of British folks who were well educated but only worked one day a week so had a bunch of free time, the clergy of the Church of England.

[@sydneyjoseph-be3xs]

Loved this and as a christian would love you to bring on a christian physicist or anyone who’s good with answering the questions you’ve brought up, a lot of these questions are super common and there’s so much similarity between science and the bible, but it’s important to know the bible doesn’t claim to be a scientific book, but yeah definitely would be super interesting to get someone well versed in answering these questions about Christianity on the pod

[@darcy2677]

faith is simultaneously the easiest and the hardest question you’ll ever be tasked with. the question do you believe is simple because it never changes and it only has 2 possible answers. Yes I believe. Or. No I don’t believe. The reason it’s so difficult is because to have true faith you must believe despite physical proof. God won’t show himself to you because that would be like going into the exam with the answers written on your arm, or keeping a secret cheatsheet. It’s unfortunately supposed to be a taxing choice, because faith is inherently is something you have to follow blindly and have full & complete trust in.

[@ekkimittrettanafn2242]

I disagree. The only reason religion supposedly doesn’t have any proof is because the people who ask for proof are incredibly close minded when it comes to the criteria of evidence. Which is also why I disagree with Chris’s take on science, he genuinely just doesn’t understand science at all. What I mean by the narrow minded idea of evidence is that when atheists ask for evidence of God, they are only willing to take material evidence for God which is delusional. It’s the same as asking you to check my weight with a ruler. God is metaphysical and thus can’t be proven in a lab. The proof of God lies in the realm of logic which, when used correctly, is a far stronger evidence for things than science (and if you want me to explain that better I can send you a link). Chris doesn’t understand the difference and is incredibly narrow minded and that is a valid criticism cuz he is only looking at the material word through the lenses of our limited, modern technology. His mistake is the same mistake I did when I was atheist and that is to not look into the arguments and proofs of God in a sincere, rational way. He limits himself to the barriers of science and is thus completely useless when it comes to the discussion on God.

[@lilym.898]

omg its the hobbit!!

[@kkunjj]

😂😂😂 there was no need bro😆

[@ellavictoriea]

MY FAVOURITE TIME OF THE WEEK ❤❤

[@johnking5174]

What Chris said at 40:30 is interesting, because the illusionist Derren Brown says being "open minded" doesn't mean you have to accept everything people think is real. Being open minded doesn't mean you need to remove your brain and just accept anything.

[@ekkimittrettanafn2242]

What people mean when they say open minded (when referring to God) is to not limit themselves to only taking material scientific evidence for God as the only way to proof Him. It’s genuinely the same thing as asking him to measure my weight with a ruler. Chris is not genuine, sincere, well versed nor fit to speak on the discussion of God for many gullible children to see. I am not trying to bash him at all, I have however made the exact same mistakes as he is making now so I understand exactly where he and many other people like him are coming from and I can say for a fact that they are not well read enough on the discussion of God to be taken seriously. P.s you are also 100% correct on the topic of being open minded, it’s just not applicable in this case.

[@Feisty123]

​@@ekkimittrettanafn2242i don't think anyone needs to be "versed" to speak on the topic of god tbh. And saying he's somehow influencing "gullible children" just comes off as a bit weird and cultish tbh

[@Thatguymcl]

Just watched the episode and I have to say. You guys are truly coming into your own genre and I’m happy to be here for it. The conversation without judgement, the willingness to be educated, and the openness to science and skepticism is fantastic. 👍

[@Alistairtaylor123]

Loved this debate lads. I’m a Christian and I personally think that science proves the existence of God, not disproves it. Would love for you to look into bringing a Christian on the Pod, who is knowledgeable of science, and have a similarly respectful debate. I know a lot of Christian’s who were atheist but became Christian because the science they found brought them to that conclusion.

[@emilyruth1401]

yes, I have this view also. My father is a brilliant physics and astronomy teacher and has hosted talks about how science and religion work together rather then disproving each other in opposing values. It's really interesting stuff and so good to hear conversations on.

[@lippyandkittymsp6449]

as a physicist i love this episode id love to hear more physics topics on the pod, love me some quantum physics, the more you know the less you understand lol

[@Lauzenger]

Best podcast ever!! 🎉🎉 Definitely my personal favourite episode so far I’ve loved these topics!! The way you guys cover some real in depth and serious topics alongside being hilarious and yelling out the odd meme at times is just * *chef’s kiss* *

[@isobaric]

Never heard of Pascal's wager. Some night I'm going to enter this rabbit hole for a few hours. Cheers boys, great conversation.

[@beccatrigger]

i think this is one of the best podcasts i have watched. love the chemistry you all have together as you can have a laugh but also provide different perspectives on various serious topics while also being engaging and entertaining. i learnt a few things from it too. keep it up !! and can't wait for the next episode to come out xx

[@OO-pl4wn]

The low iq podcast just did a super interesting ep with a hypnotists, you guys should definitely bring him on it would be so fascinating to get into all the phsycology and science behind hypnosys Love your pod btw

[@leaffairy4283]

yeah that sounds like it'd be really interesting‼

[@cix8836]

I've never watched a ChrisMD video, but I've always enjoyed his presence on every video I've seen him featured in, genuinely likeable guy

[@DystortdSacrifice]

Yall really got me spinning right now. Im so lucky in the way i choose to believe. Its either by confirmation of a belief i came to myself through people i look at positively and when i hear something that can make my stubborn ass believe something new that will usually take eliminate something i believe. Yall have done that, and arthur i do agree with your meaning of life and feel the same. I believe the people who will be affected by you will end up here somehow someway because the way i found it at the perfect time really makes me believe that. ✨️ Thank you for this really, and anyone who is actually genuinely taking all of this in and feeling a sense of relief that you arent alone anymore, wassup fam? I wonder so much if theres other people like me who are truly alone in the world right now or been pushed away by loved ones but feel better knowing other people share these beliefs and want for the truth that may have caused the demonization i feel. Really, i feel very home when i listen to this poscast. And I dont even have a home, so its really nice.

[@aimeewhite06]

I love intelligent conversations, meaningful with different opinions and thoughts. LOVE IT well done guys, absolutely my favourite podcast

[@Ellie.pringle]

This podcast is so mind engaging please keep up the amazing content!!! It’s helping me get through my uni exams xxx

[@indiaelizabeth01]

I love stupid silly podcasts but a podcast discussing such big questions in a digestible way with humour is all I’ve been looking for. Thanks and please never stop

[@laurynreed7651]

this was the best podcast i have ever watched and listened to, having an intellectual conversation is so rare nowadays and it is so refreshing hearing it from youtubers. well done boys, loved it

[@lilyoliver174]

I love these types of conversations on podcasts it’s so interesting. I was fascinated the whole video 😂

[@truecrimenwine489]

Loved this episode!! Also grew up christian and actually never knew that they had seen the big bang! So interezting!!! Thankyou for talking about it!

[@idkwhattocallmyacc]

Been waiting for this!!

[@FineLine288]

I've never liked listening to podcasts but I love this so much I could listen to it multiple times and still love it just as much! ❤

[@jasminemcmahon3893]

This is such an interesting podcast. Love that theres actual debates and conversations

[@neonclawsavie]

As somebody who struggles to conceptualise concepts when I’m disinterested, this whole conversation has shifted my view on scientists and how fascinating the depth of knowledge can be. Chris provided some very interesting perspective and it was so nice to hear about what he thinks beyond his regular football talk

[@adwaitpandey2526]

What I love about science is the number of aha moments I have and how everything assuming some standard laws makes perfect sense. Like I was recently learning about the maxwell-boltzmann distribution and it amazed me that through such simple definitions like newtons second law, we can find the velocity distribution of gas particles also great podcast I am a fan of all 3 and to know they have the same interests is nice

[@Harry-zd4te]

I love Maxwell Boltzman graphs

[@ellalovesscats]

you guys definitely need someone religious on the pod to explain their religious beliefs as it would be so interesting!! i was taught more about religion and therefore different branches in religions e.g in christianity. for example- i don’t think it was quite discussed in the pod that there are branches of christians that believe god played a big part in the big bang taking place. there are many christians who believe this, and there are significant religious individuals who were christians that believed in the big bang because the bible (especially the creation of the word in Genesis) can be interpreted differently, literally or metaphorically. love the pod both, i look forward to every episode 🫶

[@zzoezo]

definitely, im a Christian who believes in parts of the creation story and evolution and I would love to see them talk about this

[@Arthur_Frederick]

I did make sure to mention that there are plenty of people who are religious and also that accept Big Bang cosmology, evolution, and so on, and I'm sure we'll get someone on with those views at some point!

[@pete1kirk]

How refreshing to find young KZbinrs with brains!! Good job 👏

[@jeffbob5658]

I have never in 10 years and 3000 hours+ of watching chris and the uk youtube subgroups he's in and around, have such an intellectual conversation, it's a breath of fresh air in this dratted world we live in now Keep having these convos, keep talking and one day we will have answers Keep it all up lads truly brilliant work

[@DystortdSacrifice]

First time ive ever liked something enough to do this. Im hype

[@karikickass20]

Really enjoyed the conversation in this ep

[@LordSeth-hf8ew]

youtube algo finally pushed me over from pitch/backside and a podcast where people don't just talk over each other is rather refreshing

[@189nine]

One of my favourite KZbinr podcast episodes of all time. It’s refreshing to see a podcast that isn’t just solving pointless listener problems or reviewing the last sidemen sunday

[@OhItsKaaRMaa]

WOW! what an absolutely unbelievable podcast. smashed that loved the opinions and outlooks to all the interesting topics. Well done boys that was a quality

[@jopdeboo1974]

I think a conversation with a christian physicist would be very interesting! Or a physicist following any religion for that matter. Love the podcast!

[@anguswatson9720]

this episode made me reevaluate my whole life

[@maxsheppy]

super interesting chat, loved this boys

[@user-fp9je8ou1l]

Another banger of a podcast 😩

[@gabsonmars]

I was looking forward to this

[@johnking5174]

Hi - I love these topics. I love this. Thank you guys

[@haziiyama6904]

I'm 27 and for the longest time I have been a heavy atheist due to my love for cosmology, physics and everything inbetween. But these days I do think there are definitely benefits to being somewhat spiritual (I'd have laughed at my future self for saying this a few years ago). Wether it be Christianity, Islam or just believing there is a higher power out there, sometimes you can find more fulfilment & guidance in life if you have some sort of spiritually aided mantra you can run with. I do believe that religion is both the best & worst thing for humans. I'd wager the majoirity of truly great people that have existed so far have been spiritual in someway, even Einstein himself was a Christian as you said. And then on the otherhand, Anno Domini religion has been the biggest cause for war & violence since it's inception. Really interesting & thought provoking to delve deep into this topic. Pod is great - much love

[@meliora99]

Einstein was a deist, not a Christian, which is closer to modern day atheism

[@haziiyama6904]

@@meliora99 Yea you right, I should've looked it up. Still a spiritual gentlemen though. Love this quote from him - "religion is for people who are afraid of hell, spirituality is for those who have gone through hell."

[@ekkimittrettanafn2242]

Science is just a tool for us to understand this material life better. Religion (ie guidance from Allah) is to guide us on how to live our life, why we are alive, what our purpose is and to understand the unseen (ie things our limited senses can’t sense). Science and religion are definitely not mutually exclusive like many people try to make it look like. If anything, science has actually enhanced our understanding of Allah through his creation and even helped us understand His Words (ie Quran). I was probably an even more hardcore atheist than you before so if it means anything to you, my experience with finding God has changed my life infinitely. I genuinely hope you find what you’re looking for and if you are interested in learning about Islam I can give you my contact information no problem. Good luck brother/sister.

[@isabe11e6]

this was great!! very interesting would love to hear you guys & chris talk about this more

[@QuizMentorHub]

This pod is such a nice change of pace

[@LolaBurford]

ITS CHRISSS🔥🔥🔥 love these podcasts. also you guys did greqt on the sidemen Sunday!!

[@adz3076]

New favourite podcast and they're Actually consistent🤩🔥

[@ameliatreacy8285]

One interesting thing about the debate on religion, especially within Christianity, is that because of the impact of scientific knowledge and evidence, such as the Big Bang theory, a lot of Christians, certainly from my experience anyway, now choose to interpret stories from the Old Testament of the Bible as allegorical or metaphorical rather than literal historical accounts. Like the idea you guys mentioned that the world was created in seven days is kind of now seen as the author's way of explaining the inexplicable and moving on to moral teachings, like Adam and Eve (negative consequences of the pursuit of knowledge), Cain and Able (murder isn’t good) that sort of stuff. Whereas stories from the New Testament, which have more historical evidence and are less fantastical, are generally accepted by believers as true events that likely occurred.

[@isabellajohnson3833]

surprisingly insightful podcast lads well doooooneeee love it

[@salmonfish6347]

As someone who is very religious and also really interested in science, it was so cool to listen to other people's ideas about how science topics I'm well versed in link to or disprove some religious beliefs. Makes me want to bring these topics up with my own friends

[@arcticwerewolf2]

I watch loads of silly podcasts and while I love them, it is such a nice change to just chill out and listen to some relaxed but serious and intellectual debates about big topics :)

[@rockybread4626]

this episode made me not suicidal

[@zoookoo]

Finaaallly a podcast by youtubers I watch who arent talking about mind numbing topics and things they themselves dont really care about but do it because it makes for clicks and views. Keep THIS up! If you havent already (will be checking your previous uploads after this) can you talk about any paranormal expereinces or feeling other energies around you sort of stories, if you have any?

[@kazl5862]

Good convo, Jesus Christ is King, Amen

[@kpoptimes5826]

The Lord has written eternity on the human heart, Ecclesiastes 3:11 and this episode is a perfect example of that 🥰

[@connorkelly250]

Very interesting discussion! I personally am a Christian but it is always interesting to see/hear the other side in a none aggressive way. Keep it up!

[@Amy-rs7ev]

Got my Physics Alevel exam tomorrow just finished my last bit of cosmology revision just to have you guys give me extra revision by talking about the beginning of the universe, thanks guys if I get an A its because of you.

[@kleee711]

Good luck!

[@TheCsetas]

I was literally having these thoughts about life 3 days ago. Glad I am not the only one.

[@emilyruth1401]

loving the science/ universe and religion conversations, my dad is a physics teacher who has got an astronomy degree amoung others, and he believes in God and has even given talks about how science and religion can connect rather than the traditional rigid thinking that religion and science immediately oppose each other. Real interesting stuff.

[@Jaydebs_]

never been more excited for a podcast in my life 😭😭 so happy

[@AnIrishMan500]

There are so many things I want to say about this great episode but learning the real spelling of 'segue' has truly blown my mind! 😂

[@johnking5174]

I always feel there is a major difference between believing in a spirit world, after life, and then believing in a religion. Two very different things, and two can be totally separate. I more believe in an afterlife, but I do not believe in religion.

[@isabe11e6]

that’s actually a very interesting point, i grew up catholic and no longer believe in god. the only thing that semi makes me believe is the thought of an afterlife, but maybe i should start thinking of them as two separate things

[@johnking5174]

@@isabe11e6 Hi. I am the same as you. Raise catholic. However religion and believing in a spirit world are two different things. I was taught this by a good friend. You don't need religion to believe in an after life, a spirit world. A lot of people can be spiritual but not religious. So welcome to it.

[@Bob-dx5bi]

Great way to explain it just believe and follow God. Incorporating yourself in religion is optional I would say.

[@johnking5174]

@@Bob-dx5bi Faith is not needed. I do love that idea. I was told from this person who has this belief, that the creator doesn't need or want you to believe in it and worship it and kiss his/her ass by prayers etc. They said the afterlife is there. You will go there. No choice. But no fear. No judgement. It is simply our earth but in a higher, heightened state in the spirit world, not subjected to the laws of time and physics which earth is here. Great reading.

[@matthewhayes3142]

Big Brain stuff... love this!

[@JolamaOmunye]

Didn’t know they were this introspective 😮. Had to sub.

[@greenlight9299]

what is the book isaac talks about around 1:12:10 ?

[@mrjobbie]

I was just about to comment this, if someone replies, please let me know xx

[@staneagle1070]

So good to hear intellectually stimulating conversations on podcasts with uk KZbinrs, imagine any of the sidemen (except vik and maybe tobi) being able to have a convo about god and the universe even close to this interesting. Imagine the same on the Whats good podcast 😭😭

[@fionasummers4072]

I think Arthur would find this really interesting. I was going to do my diss on it. It's about how the feats of nature are often used as reasons for the existence of a God in many religions that surfaced in different geographical regions. The literature on the subject is super interesting

[@keisha7412]

loved this .im christian and this was so interesting to watch. I went through a lot of religious trauma and i used to hate God or the idea of there being a God because why would he let that happen to me? but i learned to separate those people that traumatized me from the God they claimed to serve. Because although God knows all things, he still gave us free will and he will not come where he is not welcome. So the people that hurt me, chose to hurt me with their own human will, they didnt do it 'cause of God. And dont get me wrong, i have been through a lot and i still have LOADS of questions but i know that the same God i once hated is the reason i'm still here today. and the bible has been re written so many times by different people. i just focus on my own personal relationship with God and i believe that everyone should believe and practice whatever brings them peace and joy and people who are religious like me should stop picking and chosing what sins they want to condemn and just spread love and stop forcing things on people. i also believe that bad things have to happen because without bad, you cannot appreciate the good. love to everyone

[@alexstocks6827]

This interests me so is your god the Christian god or not

[@meliora99]

free will can't exist if God knows everything, he would have created you with predetermined choices

[@keisha7412]

@@meliora99 let’s say I’m going to chose between having toast or cereal for breakfast tomorrow. God already knows what choice I will make but I have the free will to chose between the cereal or toast because the outcome of my choice is not fixed but God knows for certain that I would choose the cereal. He can see the past , present and future so His knowledge is based on foreseen evidence which in no way determines my choice of cereal . I am also willing to hear what you think 💗 this is just my understanding

[@keisha7412]

@@alexstocks6827 the Christian God

[@meliora99]

@@keisha7412 It isn't free will if your choices are predetermined though. Assuming the Abrahamic God exists, if he created you knowing that you would go to hell then you have no free will in that you can't escape that predetermined fate.

[@erfim]

This is great to watch, nice to see their other side than being funny

[@kleee711]

I think it’s important that even if you have a faith or religious then you also have your own personal belief system too

[@ekkimittrettanafn2242]

Depends. You can have your own favourite ice cream flavour but you can’t have your own subjective moral beliefs. If you are intellectually genuine you either already know why or you’ll be sincere enough to actually care.

[@ethancoates3627]

Finally a KZbin podcast that isn’t just would you rathers and regurgitated stories that have already been in videos

[@BritBallCentral]

This is great, i dont wanna hear about some random persons relationship or their “crazy” zante trip, this is proper good stuff

[@heatherjane9604]

Stuart and Cliffe Knechtle on youtube are great at explaining how Jesus and science co-exist together and the difference between historical evidence and scientific evidence - has helped me! They were on the latest impaulsive episode, and answer loads of hard questions on college campuses. Would also reccomend the book 'I dont have enough faith to be an athiest' by Frank Turek and Norman Geisler :)

[@Arthur_Frederick]

I've followed Cliffe for a while, he has such a great way of talking to people and he's really interesting to listen to in debates and on podcasts. Though I believe he's an evolution denier so it's nice to hear that he's not discouraging people from keeping up with modern science. He definitely discusses an important distinction between historical and scientific evidence, have you seen his debate with Matt Dillahunty on 'Is Christianity True'? I think the main criticism of him tends to be that his standards of evidence are insufficient to warrant his beliefs, which he explores in great depth in the debate. I've also heard Frank Turek in debates, but I think he misunderstands what atheism is because it doesn't take any faith at all to be an atheist unless you're a specific type of atheist that denies the existence of a god or gods rather than one that just lacks the belief in a god or gods. Curious to know what his key arguments from the book are though in case he's not made any of them in the debates I've seen!

[@heatherjane9604]

@@Arthur_Frederick thanks for your reply arthur, it's super encouraging to hear! I haven't heard Cliffe deny evolution, but I also haven't heard him affirm it, so I'm not sure of his stance. Stuart mentioned he believes in the evolutionary process (I don't want to take what he said out of context, so I'll refer you to the latest episode of Impaulsive where he talks about it). I definitely believe that science and historical evidence can coexist, and understanding the Bible in its literary context has been a game-changer for me! I saw a bit of that Matt Dillahunty debate a while ago but don't remember too many details, so ill have to rewatch it! but if the standards of evidence are insufficient to warrant his beliefs, for you what type/amount of evidence would be enough to warrant the belief of Jesus? just as faith is complete trust or confidence in something, isn't atheism a confidence in the absence of a God/gods? genuinely curious, and something Turek talks about! I haven't finished Turek's book yet but i can keep you updated (maybe on insta instead of publicly here, hahaha) Have a great day!

[@Arthur_Frederick]

​@@heatherjane9604 He's spoken about how it would be impossible for an eye to evolve without an intelligent designer behind it (which we know is not true, and there are many accounts of Richard Dawkins explaining, in writing and in video format, how this happens), and he's also said that it's impossible to get a genetic code out of primordial soup (which is abiogenesis rather than evolution, but it's still disappointing science denial). He may have learned more about the science since making those statements though so maybe those are no longer his opinions! Definitely worth a rewatch, Matt answers the standards of evidence question in it, too. Atheism isn't confidence in the absence of a god or gods, no, many atheists (like myself) just lack a belief in a god or gods (though some are confident in the absence of a god). There may be a god, or there may be no god, but I'm unconvinced of either claim. Faith isn't a pathway to truth, so I try to avoid believing anything without sufficient evidence. Please do keep me updated, I'd especially be interested to know if he continues to use the term atheist to mean disbeliever until the end.

[@heatherjane9604]

@@Arthur_Frederick Thanks again for your reply! I love these types of convos! I admire Dawkins for being consistent in his beliefs, but I resonate with Jordan Peterson's discussions regarding Dawkins about defining truth as conceptual, not just trivial-super interesting! While I understand that Dawkins provides detailed accounts, aren’t there still discussions within the scientific community about the exact mechanisms by which complex structures like the eye evolved through natural selection? I’ll look into this more! I’m also aware there have been studies with insights into abiogenesis - but unlike spontaneous generation, this hasn’t been proven or disproven - right? Either or, if these theories were proven, it wouldn't disprove God, I believe scientific discoveries can contribute to our understanding of both the world and God. I appreciate your clarification on atheism!! Regarding evidence, the historical evidence for Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection is so amazing. For example, there are over 5,800 Greek New Testament manuscripts, 10,000 in Latin, and 9,300 in other languages such as Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic, and Armenian. To put this in perspective, there are about 49 manuscripts of Aristotle's works and around 10 of Julius Caesar's 'Gallic Wars.' The Bible contains 63,779 cross-references, showing an insane level of interconnectivity across the whole book. But what is enough evidence? If we could 100% prove God, would we still have free will to choose, or would we have to submit with an inauthentic relationship with Him? Maybe it’s inconvenient to believe because it seems like it requires change where we’re comfortable-but I think that’s a misconception! maybe the only way to truly prove God is to die and come back to life-which is exactly what Jesus did! I was watching a video where you mentioned you were a lawyer - so so cool! Maybe you’ll like ‘The Case for Christ’, lol sorry for another book recommendation, but I’ll happily send them to your PO box if you have one! Thanks again for your insights, it’s been encouraging to think more about the role of science and think about questions I have in my own faith! In which I have loads! Have a great day!

[@Arthur_Frederick]

​@@heatherjane9604 It depends on what you mean by 'exact mechanism', but evolution by means of natural selection sufficiently explains how something as complex as an eye could come about without the need for an intelligent mind or designer. Though we don't have the exact pathway along which life began on earth, we have plenty of evidence showing various steps along the way from simple molecules all the way to complex multicellular organisms, but the main issue is that Cliff claims that it's "impossible", which has not been demonstrated to be true. As with his rejection of ("macro-") evolution, this is just disappointing science denial, which cannot be productive for his cause. I am aware of the written testimony, I would not claim that Jesus didn't exist, but anonymous, written, non-primary sources that we cannot investigate or verify are insufficient grounds to believe a supernatural claim such as the resurrection. Bart Ehrman, a New Testament scholar (formerly a Christian), explains very well how the bible in unreliable and how there are insufficient grounds on which to believe supernatural claims (which is why he is no longer Christian). And again, Matt Dillahunty shows Cliff in that debate that his four-pronged test for historical reliability is insufficient. The number of copies of manuscripts is irrelevant to whether or not they're true, just like the number of copies of Harry Potter in various different languages there are is irrelevant to how true that story is. If god could 100% be proven, I know that many atheists would refuse to worship him, driven by issues such as slavery in the bible, mass killing (e.g. the Genesis flood narrative), the suffering on earth, hell, the blood sacrifice of Jesus to serve as a loop-hole for rules he created, and so on. I'll check out The Case for Christ, thanks for the recommendation!

[@hannahmiriam]

i’m hoping to do a philosophy degree after alevels and oh my god i love this!!!!! i’m normally not a big fan of podcasts but i will defo b keeping up!

[@bentomlinson1996]

this was such a great podcast and so interesting to listen to. As a Christian myself, I think it would've been good to have someone who does believe, not to necessarily argue share their thoughts on the points you guys made. Nonetheless super interesting to hear an actual intellectual podcast and, although some points I didn't agree with, I think sharing these things and exploring other people's thoughts is far better than shutting them down. Keep up the great work guys.

[@morganb803]

I can't decide if this is comforting or sending me into an existential crisis at 24

[@gidz1]

I hope ppl that hated science or math at high school can achieve some realisation of the true beauty that they really entail

[@catmaultsby5793]

This was 10/10

[@circe.onessy]

as a religious person, its fascinating hearing about science and looking at the world through a different lens. naturally anyone questions what they grew up with- like i constantly think to myself am i religious because thats what i grew up surrounded with, or had i been born in a non religious family would i then have found religion and believed it then?? super mind bending, but i also think that science and religion arent mutually exclusive. science gives the theories and physical evidence/proof, whilst religion kind of gives the ambiguity behind those scientific theories a purpose.

[@racheljhamilton]

ok so this episode gave me an existential crisis, BUT I love these guys and got through it. I was also going to be like "theory actually means proved hypothesis" but Arthur mentioned that - so interesting given I studied philosophy of science and made so many arguments between religion and science throughout university. It's cool listening to people that are actually really intellectual

[@lilliancrozier]

A podcast about the meat industry and vegetarianism/veganism would be so interesting! Relating to like positive and negatives on the environment?