Why SRAM is The Most Desirable Groupset & Racing Rim Brakes in the Wet | The NERO Show Ep. 54

[@nodabs]

My new favorite thing is Jesse arguing people don't need an aero bike to ride slowly while podcasting in a skinsuit 🤣

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

Hahaha that guy sometimes man…

[@Argon18bikes]

Hey Jesse & Chris! We're still here👋 We just got back from a gravel ride!

[@rob_cd]

❤❤❤

[@Packersboy24]

A long stem actually makes the bike less twitchy because the effective handlebar turning radius or the distance from your hand to the steerer tube is greater, so you have to move your hand more to achieve the same angle change in the front wheel. A longer stem could get you lower which could make it feel more twitchy, or you could feel like you have less control because it's farther away or your weight is redistributed, but the movement of the front wheel is slower for the same hand movement.

[@scotth3354]

if you're not steering with your hips, you're doing it wrong

[@LeConcerto]

​@@scotth3354not sure if you're specifically disagreeing with the OP but they're right. Longer stem = less twitchy. That's why "progressive" gravel/MTBs run short stems; to balance out the longer top tube. Obviously you steer with your weight, primarily with your hips, but handlebars turn for a reason.

[@scotth3354]

@@LeConcertowe can't define 'twitchy', it's a nebulous term that means many things to many people. What we can define are terms like trail and wheel flop, which actually define how a bike steers, and neither of those terms take into account the length of the stem. Especially when considering how little a front wheel on a road bike turns when riding at speed for anything short of a hard 180, it's silly to think that a difference of few mm of arc of the bars influences much. If you need an example of how little the front wheel pivots when turning at speed, ask yourself why you don't get toe overlap issues unless you're barely moving and turning very sharply. Having used varying stem lengths to account for reach differences between frames, I can say that a 1 or 2 cm difference in stem length isn't really appreciable, so long as the overall reach to the bars is the same. When we're talking about mtb where the difference in stem length required to compensate for the reach differences between frame sizes is much greater, that's different, but not by much. Much of what we think we feel is due to being told we should feel it.

[@sambrown7673]

@@scotth3354You’re over complicating this. Yes there are other things can affect how twitchy a bike is, but we can define twitchy as more sensitive. Just like how this can be an objective thing when adjusting sensitivity on a mouse or a controller. When controlling for the other variables that you mentioned, a longer stem on the same bike will be less twitchy. So the commenter is right. A longer stem takes more input at the hands to create the same output at the head tube.

[@scotth3354]

@@sambrown7673sorry, but… as stated, for all but slow speed 180s, the minimal deflection of the wheel results in minimal deflection of the bars, and a 1 or 2 cm difference in stem length is negligible as the arc of the hands is negligible.

[@BQS1234]

“You’ve hubbardised the pro bike whereas you could’ve pro’d the hubbard bike” 🤣🤣🤣

[@evdb7246]

Literally laughed out loud at that comment. Gold.

[@BrianRPaterson]

What does "hubbardised" mean? I'm guessing it's nothing to do with Scientology 😀 Cheers

[@paulw677]

A Hubbard is generally identified by an unmatched and or baggy kit, no big knowledge about cycling, no bike handling skills, unshaven legs and an awkward presence on the bike.

[@jamiegiven]

I'm an Argon 18 dealer in Finland. I can try to answer some of your questions. - In road cycling Argon 18 sponsors Team Novo Nordisk which races in the UCI Pro Series. The Novo Nordisk riders are on their A18 SUM Pro. - The Krypton is their endurance road bike which got a total redesign in 2023. Mark Beaumont (who holds the current world record for the fastest person around the planet by bike) worked on the redesign with Argon 18. He has said the idea behind the Krypton was to make an N = 1 bike or a bike that can do a little of everything. So it's a bike that can do 4000 km ultra races across Europe but also do a grand fondo or gravel race. - The Dark Matter is their carbon gravel bike and what really distinguishes it from the Krypton is the tire clearance and the frame mounts. ( 4 water bottle mounts and pannier mounts) - And as pointed out in the video Argon 18 is also very big on the track and in Triathlon.

[@LeviDPS]

So why does someone need frame storage for an endurance road bike? That seems like a gravel/adventure feature - so there’s essentially two gravel bikes.

[@jamiegiven]

@@LeviDPS I'm going to challenge the idea that frame storage is specifically a gravel bike feature and doesn't belong on an endurance bike. The frame storage is designed to allow riders to store their essentials that would normally go in a saddle bag inside the frame. This is quite handy if you're someone who is into audax events or self supported multi day ultra races. The Krypton frame can handle it's self on gravel with clearance for 40mm tires but it's also a great bike for endurance riding.

[@LeviDPS]

I see the value, and feel this is moving away from what endurance bikes were originally intended for. Audax/adventure ultras were arguably done on touring or more comfort and compliance oriented bikes. As these guys have said in the past endurance bikes are moving towards this more all road and gravel area and away from what endurance bikes were originally designed as.

[@BreakawayB]

The endurance bike episode! 👉I have a Trek Madone and TREK Domane, and in my experience the width of the tires affects my comfort 20x more than the subtle geometry differences.

[@BadTanLines]

I think two aliens sitting together in a space ship trying to understand planet earth, would sound more familiar to me than you two sitting in a podcast together trying to understand American gravel, cyclogross and mountain bike riding 🤣🤣 I'm so here for it. I love these podcasts. You two are great together, I look forward to this every week you guys always find something new to talk about. Keep it up please gents!

[@thetinusnl8834]

Endurance bike + slammed stem + long stem and/or handlebar reach > 98 % aerobike. Yeah those 2% of frame gains, whatever. I'd rather pay half the price.

[@PeakTorque]

Here's an idea put bigger tyres clearances on all bikes get rid of all the useless pointless categories and just call it a "bike". Paying more or changing categories for literally a bit more of a gap between the chainstays is ridiculous 🎉

[@Milo-wl2if]

And with big capacity rear mechs one drop bar bike to do it all is a real possibility. Most people would be best served by a 2x gravel bike with a road and an off-road wheel set.

[@LukeHuyskens]

pro tip - use a portable USB charging brick for your Di2 / power meter, instead of dragging an extension lead out onto the balcony

[@h4rdcor31]

Project Echelon is sponsored by Argon18 here in the States, a conti pro team. There is a rider that joins our group rides and a few of our members have picked up their old team bikes this year. So at least in my area Argon is well known and we see quite a few of them, both road and gravel.

[@niallfordyce7148]

As a rider/racer with 50 years of cycling experience (waaayyyyyyy beyond "enthusiast"), my recent experience with SRAM Force (what I could afford as I finally made the change from steel/rim brakes/cables/etc.) after decades of Campy, which I still love, has been simply phenomenal. Full stop. Although I suppose this is still a work in progress... Oh, and one can still be fast as f**k well after 50. Cheers, lads, and keep up the good work!

[@AlistairLattimore]

I bought a Scott Addict RC with Ultegra Di2 at Christmas last year and agree, it is incredible. I don’t think it’d have mattered one bit if it was SRAM Force eTap, it’d still have been amazing 😊

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

I'm the reverse, I'd rather WALK than ride anything with SRAM's name on it. Why do you think the only pro teams that use this junk are the ones who get fat chex? Once the chex stop coming and they have to buy the stuff, they buy...Shimano, which has replaced Campagnolo as the standard.

[@jeffreytaipei7907]

One thing to note is that SRAM added huge market share during the pandemic not because of their Tech or how it performs, but simply because it was the only thing available (relatively). There were huge shortages with Shimano not only due to their COVID factory closures, but at that time Shimano was focusing on production for their new 12spd Dura-Ace / Ultegra which was going to the big bike brands for full bike builds. A lot of those customers would still stick with SRAM going forward.

[@fleurdelispens]

SRAM has another advantage y'all haven't talked about: it's way easier to hot swap gear ratios and stuff between road and gravel setups. I live in a small apartment and don't have the space (or funds) for N+1 bikes. So for me, having a 46/33 and a 10-36 for road, and a 10-44 for gravel/bikepacking is perfect. Also yeah, small apartment, way easier to put my bike where there's space and take the batteries off to charge

[@nokia6800]

You are able to run the 10-44 with a 2x? Xplr Rd?

[@fleurdelispens]

@@nokia6800 yep. I don't know about red and force, but the rival xplr rear derailleur can handle a 10-36 or a 10-44. Can't do anything smaller than a 10-36 though

[@JFomo]

So you just change your wheels out and off you go? No faffing with limit screws or anything?

[@fleurdelispens]

@@JFomo might have to faff a little bit, but way easier than my current planned setup of running a 50/34 and an 11-34 for road and then swapping to a 46/30 for gravel. Can't afford etap yet, so I'm just upgrading my claris 3x8 to ltwoo 2x11

[@BrianMcDonald]

I'm doing some testing with a mullet setup and the potential for multiple setups on one bike is possible but there are definitely some hurdles that I think need to be addressed in some way for it to be truly viable for people

[@markr6383]

My main bike is an SL7, but I've got a pretty nice older steel bike, and the big thing you notice other than the weight and flex, is how quiet it is. Because every little sound doesn't resonate around inside the frame. That might contribute to it feeling "smooth".

[@thisandthatandotherthings]

I can add some context to discussion of Argon 18 and endurance bikes as I ride an Argon 18 Krypton Pro, the 2020 version which received a few Bike of the Year awards. I had to import the frame from Europe as Argon 18 would not sell one to me directly and the Australian distributor for Oceania also refused to import one for me or any bike shop. I built it up and customised it myself so it is above Argon 18’s own spec. Weighs 7.8kg including pedals and bottle cages with 56mm deep wheels. I love the performance - its geometry and aerodynamics allow to me to ride 100km at a 28/29km/hr average on a good day. I could average 30+km/hr if there wasn’t 1000+m of climbing and/or I was 30+ years younger. The new 2023 Krypton Pro is a step backwards as an All Road Bike despite the down tube storage - heavier and the increased tyre clearance looks to have flared out the chainstays to the point of limiting the front derailleur to 50t. I would put the new top model Endurace, Domane and Defy ahead of it if, like me, you just want a performance road bike with relaxed geometry. As for SRAM / Shimano you missed a lot of points like SRAM can be more expensive, power meters need to be replaced when Red chainrings wear out, and no one likes DOT fluid though I will concede that elite crit racers have an advantage with their 52/10 SRAM configs since you would need a 57/11 Shimano config to get the same ratio.

[@cornishalps9870]

Efficiency in the 10t is not very good though, and unnecessary unless you need to pedal at less than 100rpm at 45mph

[@0HereForAGoodTime0]

I love my ARGON18 bikes! I have the 2021 Krypton CS endurance bike and the 2022 Dark Matter gravel. Here in the US, the E117 and E119 tri bikes are quite popular! Don't hate, gotta appreciate!

[@jaredfontaine2002]

SRAM is popular because their crankarms don't explode... really nice feature

[@allisgood.6191]

Correct!

[@kellrockets101]

Wayyyy better power meter too

[@johnclement4781]

It’s worse than shimano for quality and that’s saying something

[@jaredfontaine2002]

@@johnclement4781 Srams cranks don't snap in half

[@kellrockets101]

​@johnclement4781 that's just a dumb comment and has ultra bias.

[@willdtw]

Hey ladies. A grandpa on a gran fondo that rides an endurance bike with aero features benefits plenty. 2 reasons, 1. headwinds add drag so a 10 mile an hour headwind creates similar aero savings as that for a rider doing 18 mph as a rider doing 28 with no headwind. 2. A slower rider is on the course much longer so even if he's not savings as many watts per second because he's on the course much longer so he usually benefits from a similar time savings sometimes a better time savings. You guys should really get a 3rd person for your podcast that knows what he's talking about.

[@BrianMcDonald]

I got a 2012 Roubaix when it came out and flipped the stem and asked the shop I bought it from to slam the stem and cut the steerer. The shop was like WTF are you sure you want to do this? My reasoning was that I just wanted a softer yet still slightly aggressive bike since I mostly ride around a city environment. I can now say I was a trailblazer 😂 I have zero regrets about that bike, and it has allowed me to easily transition to more aggressive gravel bike riding, since I pretty much turned the Roubaix into a proto-gravel bike. I also extended the capabilities of the "old" bike by adding narrow flared bars and newer deep aero wheels and it still performs close enough to my Cervelo Soloist.

[@kp-dr7tt]

I have a rim brake bike and still enjoy it! I wouldn’t give it up. My disc brake road bike is just sitting at home collecting cobwebs

[@Eramsay121]

I'm with you there, the rim brake CAAD gets loads of love while my disc gravel bike sits in the corner

[@AveragestCyclist]

I’ve got an Argon 18 Krypton, 2014 I believe (the Bora era). Rim brake, full Ultegra 11spd mechanical. Little known brand, but a lovely bike to ride.

[@dennisfoley9623]

I am 71 and ride 12000 kms per year and I “have not given up” on my aluminium Wilier or my steel Gitane. Would you please stop putting shit on anyone who is not in the Sydney “ boy racer” scene .

[@welcomeghosts_uk]

Well said

[@Chrisrides]

You guys had me chucking. Chris has a point. Endurance aero 🤫😆

[@ketle369]

Canyon already has that.

[@nationsnumber1chump]

Still riding my 2014 Rabobank TCR. Changed groupsets about 3 times in its lifetime. Shimano to SRAM red mechanical to Ultegra di2. Changed handlebars out for 3T more aero ones. Love the hefty carbon sprint stem. Had about 2 wheelsets/ changed the headset bearings once. 2nd set of pedals, Look to dura-ace. literally never changed out the bottom bracket and I don't think its even ceramic. it's press-fit, never given me issues. Probably do about 8-10k a year on average. Crappy roads. Who is still making lifetime bikes?

[@matkrek]

Great color scheme too

[@jamesbrickwood7414]

Yep. My 2014 Focus Cayo Dura Ace is still going strong. Shifts beautifully still and having a standard seat post bar and stem, I can customise fit as fits. Also weighs well below 8kg.

[@charliedillon1400]

If you can't ride a bike heavily for ten years, then it's not well made. They sell us junk because most people never put enough hours on the bike to wear anything out. Brake pads, tires, and chains are all you should be replacing often.

[@spiderscomics1180]

Just parted out my Parlee Z1x after 20 years..and stil have a 16 year old Pegoretti whilst I buy a 2nd road bike. I'm in your camp...not sure I like the idea of buying a Giant/Specilized/Cervelo to find the thing is junk after a few years - you see very few of these bikes on the roads...Tarmac SL6's are rare already!

[@10ktube]

If you think about frame material, how much can it possibly be flexing vs a tire? I feel like no matter what, adjusting psi is far more noticeable than anything else you can do. After that I'd go seat post, as they flex a ton if you get a nice one.

[@pippinc7113]

Many Shimano "enthusiasts" have switched to the GRX which has smaller chainrings and larger rear cassette capabilities.

[@LifeCycle1978]

This is a good point. I think Shimano will catch on and offer similar gear ratios for its “road” cassettes/chainrings.

[@bigredactionsportsstuff1245]

I love that you voiced the slammed endurance bike vs spacer’d race bike. I’ve been thinking of this for a while, plus I can spend more time in my aero tuck on a slammed endurance bike than on a slammed race bike.

[@bigredactionsportsstuff1245]

Also, regarding Argon, they had a lot of supply issues during Covid, seemingly moreso than other manufacturers, so perhaps this is partially why they fell off.

[@buddhahat]

I don't have a race bike, but I have been considering a new bike for a while. I currently ride a 2020 Canyon Endurace and have just slammed the stem, and it already has a pretty racey geometry for an endurance bike. I did 120km yesterday in just over 4 hours and was happy spending way more than half the time in the drops. Not sure I have been fully convinced to upgrade yet, I'm pretty happy with the setup.

[@GCPerformance18]

Best endurance bike is known to be a pinarello dogma f with 80mm spacer stack…. Change my mind

[@kt31166]

I think Chris is spot on as far as new bike trends the average rider wants a bike that looks the part a “Racer” but fits like a “Endurance” bike. Whoever builds that wins! As far as steel bikes go in general they ride smoother. I rode my 1978 Trek for the first time in years after rebuilding and was amazed by how smooth it was. Now “why don’t you ride it all the time?” Because it sucks!! It sucked when it was new. Tons of flex at the bottom bracket, bike would shift gears on its own climbing a hill and it is a tank haha. That weight and the ability of the steel bike to absorb vibration is what makes it smooth. I was on 23mm’s for this bike as well. On the other hand my Aluminum bike had a much harsher ride. The vibrations over sharp pavement were at times jarring. Different dampening frequency range for Aluminum. My Carbon bike eliminates those sharp vibrations but is still very stiff and lively feeling. I will never good back to anything else after riding a few carbon bikes for the last 15 plus years.

[@Gianniz27]

Many brands have it, Cervelo Caledonia, Pinarello, Storck, Vitus Venom, etc.

[@buddhahat]

@@Gianniz27 I think the new Giant Defy fits in this category too

[@Gianniz27]

@@buddhahat New Defy is excellent, but for Chris probably not "aero" enogh. Althoug I find it much more nice, then a bulky Propel or Aeroad.

[@Fatbutnotflat]

comparing 45 years old steel frame with brand new carbon race bike?

[@davidnicholson6680]

I've been riding for decades. I own both Di2 and AXS bikes. I'll likely stick with SRAM going forward. SRAM's patented full wireless setup is clearly the best idea on the market. Quarq power meters are the best on the market from a price/durability/reliability/accuracy/ease of maintenance perspective. SRAM's chains, cassettes and chainrings are the most durable on the market. SRAM's removable/swappable external batteries are easier to deal with in my experience. SRAM's finishes are longer lasting. Also, the Shimano crank fiasco has frankly put me off the brand, mostly because of Shimano's poor handling of the situation.

[@davidfindlay8158]

Great points on the endurance bikes Chris. I've thought for a long while that most are on the 'wrong' bike. U see it on GCNs bike vault a lot - gorgeous Pinarellos, SL7s, Madones etc with 50mm of spacers! I find myself screaming at the TV 'they're on the wrong bike so it can't be a 'supernice'! They need a 3rd category, simply called 'get out 👉'

[@mickmeaney1461]

Yay! Chris has nailed it. Very few recreational riders need a short wheelbase slammed race bike. A longer wheelbase and slacker head angle is so so much better. And Jesse, way wrong, a longer stem tames the twitchiness of these stupid race bikes. You can build a fabulous, though slightly heavy, roadie using a cyclocross frame. I've got a couple, one with 130mm stem, and now wouldn't even contemplate anything else. Good show again. .

[@wrwicky]

Fantastic aero endurance discussion. Aero Enduro is the future, compliance can be engineered

[@SrFederico]

I’m all with Chris on the endurance bike discussion. I’m too old and unflexible to buy a real aero bike, but I want a hot looking bike nonetheless. I won’t break records or win races, and if I want to get rid of weight, I should better look at myself than at the bike. So I went for the Pinarello Prince FX, the predecessor of the X-series, with the look of a Dogma F12 but shorter reach/higher stack and a bit heavier (= stiffer for higher rider weights). But similar bikes are rare in the market, endurances bikes are mostly a bit bland, generic, uninspiring.

[@charliedillon1400]

Wilier has a beautiful endurance bike. Don't recall the name.

[@SrFederico]

@@charliedillon1400 I looked at Willier two years ago, the were nice but did fail to captivate me. The newer iterations seem to be more generic.

[@kiaanwatts309]

Ultegra 12speed Di2 here. 54/39 paired to a 11-34t cassette is the ultimate do it all training/race set up with a 55t fitted for flat/fast races. You can’t change my mind

[@mp-_-4483]

Riding in the Toronto area of Canada I see probably 70% Cervelo bikes, 20% specialized/s-works, and 10% other brands

[@jeroenwieringa6420]

I was looking for an aero endurance frame, because my back can't handle a low stack, but I like to race a lot. I bought the BH RS1 and really like it. It is an aero bike with a slightly stack.

[@ketle369]

Canyon has endurance aero bikes. I slapped a 12 mm stem on mine.

[@alexdyke7176]

Chris totally has a point for aero endurance bikes, my dad is well into his 50s and refuses to touch anything that doesn’t look fast so he’s riding a super six and even with pretty much full stack he still gets off it and feels absolutely battered

[@joekawasaki]

I went from a h2 fit Madone to a new supersix evo. The supersix is very close to the h2 fit while being racey. Shimano is still the way! I don't leave my bike outside anyway so there's always a plug nearby. The double paddle is much better than the single/double/both side click. Everything can be cable run off the 1 longer lasting battery (running the wire only happens once so who cares). I'd rather have the larger crank with smaller jumps on the cassette for a happy cadence.

[@DaveCM]

You can have the same cassette range with SRAM. I also prefer the SRAM system. When on Shimano, I'd occasionally hit the wrong button. Especially when on a climb and my brain is shutting down. It could be a factor of my big hands. As for the batteries, the smaller batteries has never been an issue

[@LeConcerto]

I've never heard anyone say that 4 paddles is better than 2 so I'm curious why you think that. Re: gearing, SRAM has a 10-33 cassette and also a 50/37 chainring so there are options. Personally, I find the spacing on the 10-36 to be perfect for me.

[@joekawasaki]

@@LeConcerto I prefer a trigger for each action (that's probably just what I'm used to). Before I switched to di2 being able to dump 3 gears in 1 sweep was great. The end of the 10-33 cassette has huge jumps at the end. The battery thing was more about what they said about keeping the bike on the patio & having to use an extension cord but I'd never leave bikes outside & the longer life makes more sense for me.

[@ShawnMcAfee]

Jesse Coyle is off his chain regarding aero features on a gravel bike. Most gravel races I attend have amateur fields averaging 20+mph.

[@peterlenz2188]

re bike fit: I had a KOM for a while set on a steel Eddy Merckx, exposed cables and with alu rims. This was on an 5km long elevated road and for a year I could not improve on using a Ridley Noah with Zipp 404 wheels. The only thing I can ascribe this to was that the EM just fitted me incredibly well. I probably would still ride it if it wasn't stolen from inside a car park within view of the security office.

[@chriss8140]

Relating the steel frame: my purchase decisions were lots of drill holes for fenders, bags and mounting anything you need on the bike for traveling, winter or extra long rides. I can hardly feel the difference between my aluminium frame but downhill the steel frame feels like riding on rails.

[@bikenurse]

Just bought and Canyon Endurace last week. I love it and the fit but if I had been familiar with the Chapter2 brand before this video I would have probably gone with the Koko. I think having a cool looking bike can not be underestimated. Now my Endurace will be slammed with a -17 degree stem but I realize that most people would have chosen the bike that didn't fit them as well just to look cool. When I was making the decision I just came to the realization that no one, other than cyclists, think you look cool regardless of what bike you're on.

[@Gianniz27]

Not so easy to slam a Canyon, they have the different headtube standard (most stems are not compatible), and most of the newer modells work only with the Canyon bar-stem combo because of the integration.

[@bikenurse]

@@Gianniz27 I found that Ritchey makes a -17 stem that works with 1 1/4" steerer tubes. I didn't get the fully integrated set-up/handlebars because I knew it would be a mess to set up and I didn't want to mess with being limited to what stock they have on hand in regards to sizing.

[@squatchy69]

So, I have had a few S-Works Tarmacs. And love the one I own now. But I also have a rare Eddie Merckx and a desirable Tomassinni. Desirable meaning is hard to find. And it is even harder to find a 60CM in great+ condition. I am totally blown away by the space-age tolerances, and machining, frame build-up. It is amazing that a working man can truly own a space-age piece age technology. It just totally turns me on. And I love my steel masterpieces as well. The difference to me is my plastic bike is a machine or a tool. If you will. But my steel bikes are my friend's. I feel that each has their own personality. You can look at them, and it speaks volumes of the time they were made in. You can see the spirit of the builder/creator in them. You can even tell what country they are probably made in. Such is true about so many things that are "Italian " made classics. So I can take a custom 57 Chevy out for a ride. And completely enjoy that experience. And I get tons of compliments when out on all of my bikes. But even more so with my steel beauties. Or I can get in a funny car. That reeks of technology. And marvel at "the machine" qualities. And many complement my Tarmac, too. I think too many people do not really even know about the Steel world. Lots of dumb people look down at steel bikes. But many of us love the hell out of them. I haven't tossed out the white towel. I love all my bikes for different reasons. But my steel bikes are friends/ children. And my plastic bike is a marvel of technology. It's too bad. Too many people look down at steel bikes and the people who ride them as losers. Or people that have given up. And maybe at the same time. It's a good thing because it allows us to occasionally find A true gem of a steel bike. For instance try to find A SL% Tarmac with rim brakes. Super had to come by those. And yet, sometimes, if you get lucky and wait forever, you may get lucky enough to acquire one.

[@williambob111]

I had a new in the box Hub from last november when my kid moved out who I bought it for. 2 days ago I unboxed it, updated it, moved my NEO out of the way, installed the play controllers on my bike and HOLY CRAP is virtual shifting cool! So is hitting power ups with my thumb without getting off the bars. So is the steering for that matter! I've had sterzo since it came out and the play steering is 100x better implementation. so easy to micro manage position in the bunch, like staying in Constance's draft, for instance. I use Sauce also btw.

[@Philatlondon1]

There's a crit at Crystal Palace in London where the slightest drop of rain gets it cancelled. It's absolutely lethal in the wet. Had a couple of road races on open roads cancelled when the puddles were so deep it just wasn't safe, but most races will just go ahead.

[@ernestadamo4634]

I've ridden alloy, lugged steel, carbon, and now titanium. Went through a similar process as your friend (3 years of planning and fitting for me) in buying a custom Firefly Bicycles titanium with a carbon fork and a custom carbon wheelset. I'm 57, so speed isn't as important, and I'm not racing, but this bike is fast and comfortable. I'm not saying it's more or less comfortable than my Guerciotti carbon gravel bike, but I love it. I also run SRam AXS Force on the Firefly. The geometry is their "Road Plus" which is between a racing and endurance position, which is perfect for my style of riding.

[@Devlin.Cycles]

You guys should probably research the difference between Columbus steel tubing and Ti tubing. You'd be surprised how superior steel can be to Ti in building a structure like a bike. It all comes down to geometry and design of the bike. The material choice is not that big a difference other than being able to achieve the design goals you want. Sean @ Devlin

[@mysho6317]

Depending on the Wheel, GP5000s are a PITA to mount - notorious for being difficult. Pirelli (latest version TLR) are usually much easier, quieter, grip well and fast

[@Lillee1969]

Except didn’t Pirelli have a massive recall?

[@mysho6317]

Yes, although I would not call it massive. It was 2 weeks of production of 28s - TLR. I added the actual Pirelli link with details but YT deleted my comment & reprimanded me for adding a comment with Spam🙄 Luckily none of mine were affected. I rode on them yesterday

[@Lillee1969]

I thought it was to do with Hookless? Beware, I think hookless still super sketchy

[@mysho6317]

Agree. They don't actually say that but it talks about inflation levels & bead interfacing with rim. Sound Hookless to me. I have no interest in Hookless wheels.

[@sreallybrah]

The thing I love about SRAM is I can test different hood angles without worrying about breaking the Di2 cable and potentially having to undo handlebar tape to replace a cable. I ride 52t 1x, and the Di2 cable hassle makes no sense for me. I do miss the hidden button, but according to the latest patent filings SRAM could be catching up soon.

[@raymondyuen3560]

Di2 is Semi-wireless. Doesn't matter if it's 105 or Ultegra or DuraAce. Once the battery inside the seat post is flat, it's going to be fixed gear training. Friend of mine transported his bike for an outing and wasn't aware that the shifters were activated. With SRAM, just remove the batteries and pop them in before starting the ride. 😎

[@Ghostina1]

OMG i was rofling all this Episode! David Arthur, Shimano Old Money, etc..... LOVE IT - Cheers from Bavaria!

[@robertchandler587]

After witnessing many a teammate struggle with sram (I was allowed DA) I’ve avoided it until I recently purchased a 1x sram force groupset. 1x being crucial cos I won’t go near a sram front shifter!!

[@TheCyclingCardio]

To counter Jesse’s opinion, just because some cyclist don’t have the flexibility to run a low stack long tube bike, doesn’t mean they don’t ride single line strung out 40-50 kph peloton crunching out 300 watts on the drops..the Aero features would absolutely help in that scenario

[@aybee69]

Great convo! I'm a metal guy, but I'm not anti CF in any way. I do disagree with the smoothness of steel "just" being because it "fits" them. I've have my Lemond Poprad @ my LBS for a derailleur hanger adjustment and after a test ride, the mechanic (who owns and Aethos and SL8) shaking his head saying its "just so smooth". Definitely considering "adding" some CF in the form of a Crux to the stable...not a roadie either 😊.

[@draugmithrin]

My steel Thorn Audax Mk3 definitely has a different ride feel to any other road bike I've ridden, great for light touring or long rides, crap for sprinting.

[@adamsouthard1155]

What Peak Torque said about the titanium bikes was: There's more flex. Ergo it feels smoother. You're correct in that there are no special damping qualities about metal but the flex does absorb some of the bumps.

[@welcomeghosts_uk]

This. And for the vast majority of recreational riders a little flex is welcome. You can’t have it both ways lads. You tell people they’re buying the wrong bike because of geo and miss the fact that riding a super stiff carbon bike often doesn’t help either. And you nearly miss the appeal of metal frames to many which is the fact that they’re made by people and have a sense of longevity about them, particularly titanium.

[@hawk72]

I am very happy with the Cervelo Soloist as my bridge to something more comfortable and aero, but not breaking the wallet. And my partner loves her Argon 18 Krypton (from BikeBug).

[@BrianMcDonald]

I did the same with a Soloist. I could probably slam the stem on it if I wanted to, but I kept a little bit of space to keep it comfy. It feels more comfortable than the 11 year old endurance bike I had before it.

[@PatrickLino]

For as many bike builds I do each year for testing, setting up SRAM eTap is so freaking convenient and faster than Shimano.

[@callahanlumber]

I could not agree more with Chris and as someone who has no idea what they want, I would gravitate to the endurance aero bike 😂

[@0HereForAGoodTime0]

And on the points about the difference between all road and gravel, it's not just tire clearance. The compliance on those bikes are very different. Having tried to use the Krypton as a gravel bike, I can assure you it DOES NOT WORK on gravel. It will destroy your back. My opinion is that all road branding is just to say it handles different quality tarmac, asphalt roads.

[@three10media]

Per your first chat on aero endurance. The Elves Falath Evo is exactly that, "aero" profile with a higher stack

[@edrcozonoking]

I have SRAM and Shimano both in mech and electronic...and while SRAM has the versatility advantage it does not continue to work as well as Shimano jn the long run. Basically works great when new.

[@shimona500]

The front derailleur is a mess to set up and very temperamental. Shimano's just works. On gravel with 1by, sure, SRAM. But not sure about it with 2by.

[@LifeCycle1978]

I also have two bikes with two different groupsets and although I love Shimano, I completely disagree that SRAM only works well new. And the FD debate/issues were resolved.

[@hawkmantm465]

First segment… immediate gold 😂 #enduaero + bonus skimpy JC 🤩

[@justsomedude7556]

I bought a bike with SRAM AXS and then converted to SRAM on the my other road bike with Force AXS 48/35 10-33 cassette and building a gravel bike with SRAM 1X mullet system. I was a Shimano fan boy, but I love the gearing ratios of SRAM better, and the ability to keep my batteries inside the temp controlled house versus the 140 degree garage where it will kill the di2 battery, which has happened to me. I love the Quarq power spider meters as well. As far as the Zwift trainer, I have a Stages SB20 smart bike and I have the ability to pick what gearing I want to use which is nice as I can try out different gear ratios without having to change my bike. My wife and I use different drive train systems and I got tired of having to move things around, so I bought this, it has been fantastic. I do not run GP5K as I run Pirelli P Zero Race TLR

[@paulzhang1992]

Same here, I'm loving it after I tried and switching most of my bikes to SRAM

[@JordanHammond7]

Good to see that Chris has accepted his age and done a 180 on endurance bikes. They are the correct bike for almost all road riders. I ride an endurance bike with Sram Force AXS, it's good, except the chain drops all the time going down to small chainring. But after renting a bike with 105 Di2 for a couple of days I almost wanted back into the Shimano cult. It's much quieter and smoother, the big issue for me is the 4 gear change buttons. 4 buttons are not necessary. I pressed the wrong button on nearly every gear change. If Shimmy could copy or pay to copy the 2-button solution, and have smaller chainrings, I'd go back. I also hope that Sram can sort out their noise drivetrain and dropping chain issues.

[@SrFederico]

I ride Force AXS for about 7k km now, and I never ever had the chain drop everybody's talking about. The set up of the front mech was finicky and I took my time, so maybe it's caused by half-heartedly set-up front mechs?

[@bikerjk1205]

Sram can't make a decent front derailleur which is why they heavily promote 1x.

[@SrFederico]

@@bikerjk1205 Mine works fine, flawless, fast. Installation however has to be precise.

[@JordanHammond7]

@@SrFederico I never received the placement tool, so am planning to take it to a good bike shop to have the drivetrain reset and indexed. There are some gear ratios that are far noiser than others. E.g. 35-28 grinds, but 35-32 is quiet. Very weird.

[@SrFederico]

@@JordanHammond7 The placement tool was helpful, but after that came some fine tuning. I find the Force relatively quiet, but you are right, 46/14 is louder than 46/13 or 46/15 (but only when the wax is running low). I would have thought that it would get louder at the extremes only...

[@piltrid1]

I"m amazed by SRAM because I remember when the big 3 were Shimano, Suntour, Campy. Saw Shimano kill of Suntour and never thought anyone could/would enter the market, let alone innovate/become a major player so quickly.

[@charliedillon1400]

I have Suntour and Sugino bits on my 1985 Nishiki Prestige. 38 years old and still works like a champ. My cafe beater bike.

[@emersonlindenlaub8124]

Gotta agree with Chris, I actually preach about this to any poor soul who will listen. I'll keep it brief here though....think about all the MAMILs on a Venge or S5 with a skyscraper of stack. That is NOT the bike for them but the froth outweighs all. An Aero, Endurance geometry, with big tire clearance, etc etc + the ability to looks pro as f. THAT is the bike for the masses.

[@nluisa]

I see a lof of Propels around where I ride. I am yet to see one with less than 4-5cm of spacers under the stem, which I imagine do a great deal for aero credentials. I'm sure they won't handle great either, if the steerer tube doesn't go first...

[@nockee]

Sounds like the Caledonia 5. It’s aero, comfortable and cool looking. It was sold as a hybrid road/easy gravel bike but fits this aero/endurance idea.

[@stuartdryer1352]

I like only having to charge one battery. Hence Shimano. Also I trust wires. One reason to not run GP5000 is that they are EXTREMELY difficult to mount on at least some carbon wheels, approaching impossible on my wheels. I can do it in my garage, sometimes using a hair dryer. On the side of the road you can quickly learn to run something else. I run Pirelli. Aerodynamics helps everyone. If you go slower the gains per minute are less, but the time per distance is greater, so you still get a gain. And an endurance geometries don't have to be much heavier since it almost all comes from the head tube..

[@DerAngriff]

A mate loves the GP5k but reckons it's anxiety inducing to change the tires. Reckons he's mutated his thumbs from fitting them. So he rides Pirelli's and they look sick!

[@JSquare1]

'Someone going 26KPH . . . does not need an aero bike.' You must not ride where there is any serious wind. I have experienced the difference of having an aero bike matched against fellow riders with equal power output riding non-aero bikes. Into a 15MPH headwind at 26KPH for 10 miles, my aero bike ate up the endurance bikes, riding away from them. I am 63 years old, have owned non-aero bikes, then tried aero. I am on my second one, love it, and would never give it up. As i gained more flexibility and fitness, riding in the drops became very comfortable and i could feel the difference in my endurance in that riding position; all metrics improved. Do stretches to get flexible and also get a very good bike fit so being in the drops does not bother you, and then enjoy the benefits that drop bar aero bikes offer.

[@things_I_saw]

Loved my 1988 built Reynolds 531 steel frame. My favourite carbon bike is a 2011 (yes) S-Works Roubaix. On a smooth road the steel bike was smoooooth. The S-Works on the other hand on most roads I compare to an aircraft carrier. It goes just as fast or faster than it's surrounding escorts, but far more forgiving (comfortable)

[@discbrakefan]

As a SRAM groupset owner, front chainring drop is a common occurrence, “set up properly” or not

[@mattmckenna623]

This is the reason I've just dropped almost 3k on a new dura-ace groupset. My bottom bracket shell was crying out for Shimano

[@donwinston]

I had a steel bike 50 years ago and when I got out out of the saddle and every time I stomped on the gears while climbing a hill it would flex so much the cable would pull so much the friction shifters would shift me into a harder gear. It was almost always not what I wanted.

[@MD0886]

Agree with Jesse, if you could test ride a bike before you buy it, you'd make better decisions, whether it's the bike type or geometry. None of the bike shops around where I live have test bikes for people to try or rental bikes that you could take for a couple of days to try out before you empty your wallet for one of your own. Now customers are stuck playing around with geometry charts and geometry comparison tools online for days on end because they don't which to buy or how it's going to fit them or feel to ride for more than 3 minutes...

[@wildwoodcycling779]

A road bike that sells based on vibes is the Allez Sprint (not carbon but I think the point still stands based on their secondary market prices)

[@JasonHindley]

I wonder if the Aethos fits into the “sells on vibes” category - literally no aero features, exposed cables etc.

[@Uphill_Pursuit]

The BMC roadmachine is an endurance bike that looks cool and has the froth. The tubes are more aero looking than the previous team machine and the geometry isn’t extremely endurance it’s just marginally more comfortable and softer than a team machine.

[@Milo-wl2if]

I’m one of the “bourgeoisie” riding Campy with an attic full of spare parts to keep me going until I die. It breaks my heart that Campy has all but disappeared, however one area that they still have a big lead in quality and proven tech is wheelsets. Their Fulcrum branded wheels are ubiquitous OEM on nearly every gravel bike sold in the UK. Is that the same elsewhere?

[@love2ridebicycles584]

Been riding the GP 4000-5000 for the last 15 years. Love them! Rarely get a flat and don't slice like Michelin's.

[@petesjk]

Chris’s ‘right’ bike already exists, it’s the Time Skylon. A bike designed to be comfortable with some aero profile frame features.

[@benharcourt3844]

Yes Chris!!! Check out the geometry of the Cervelo S3 (circa 2015). There is your aero endurance bike. Fast, light & comfortable. The pro’s we’re running them then too! That’s the geometry the new Soloist should have had.

[@RicardoRocha-lg1xo]

I had one and I loved it. Eventually the dropouts wore out due to continuous use on a trainer during Covid lockdowns. Getting it repaired would have cost way more than what I could have sold it for after repairs, so I sold it very cheap to a mechanic who didn't mind the damage, but now I regret that. I miss that bike. I handled great and had awesome ride quality.

[@RicardoRocha-lg1xo]

I should ad I was pretty dissapointed by the new Soloist's geo. Far too agressive for my damaged lower back. I simply couldn't handle such saddle to handlebar drop.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Yeh sick bike. I remember Dan had one, now he was super inflexible ... but loved the bike, and it was FAST!

[@markfairchild5122]

My Pinarello Paris is an endurance bije that has aero features from Dogma. I love as I can make it look fast, but still fit it.

[@driftwood1752]

Can you guys discuss Cardiac health during your next podcast? This is quickly becoming an important topic that warrants open dialogue.

[@tassfilm]

Jesse sure has it in for 50 and 60 year olds. Not a video goes by without Jesse mentioning the age group, as if all 50 and 60 year olds walk around with walking canes and have no flexibility. 😂😂😂😂😂

[@n.eilo_rides]

💯 so many guys in this age group are kicking arse in group rides and racing.

[@tassfilm]

@@n.eilo_rides so true.

[@charliedillon1400]

@@n.eilo_rides I'm 54 and not that fast, but I ride a Tarmac for eight hours, no problem.

[@meibing4912]

Moving towards 70 - Yesterday; 2280 height meters (8500 feet) over 143 km (90 miles) - just keep rolling! 😗

[@jackriley1989]

On the aero endurance bikes, have you guys looked at the geometry of the new supersix Evo? It measures up very similar at the front to my cervelo caledonia. The caledonia isn't exactly super relaxed, but it's a racey "endurance" model

[@ketle369]

Look 👀 at the geometry 📐 difference between the Canyon racing bikes 🚲. It’s almost nothing.

[@SnowShovelAVA]

front derailleur is absolute shit on my mechanical 11 speed SRAM force despite my efforts and my bike shop's efforts to fix it, cant speak for other groupsets.

[@cornishalps9870]

We had a local crit in the uk that went ahead with 50mph gusting sideways rain on a 1 mile circuit with two 180 degree bends. Re racing in the wet.

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

For the first 15 minutes of the pod… y’all perfectly described the Cervelo Soloist….

[@lsc5403]

Raced on Tuesday C grade with rim brakes on carbon. Was hopeless, couldn't stop at all, but I joined the break and stuck with it. Even though we won I was wishing I had discs, and that might've been the decider for me to finally change. I think the speed in A grade would've been too much in corners for rim brakes so Jesse prob made the right choice.

[@pavlos..]

Oh, they were talking about Tuesday night when saying 'last night'. Makes sense

[@DurianriderCyclingTips]

In A grade we hardly use the brakes bro. If you need disc brakes to control a road race tire you dont have enough skills to ride in a bunch safely.

[@lsc5403]

@@DurianriderCyclingTips ask Jesse why he didn’t race in the rain. Shouldn’t have to use brakes but if you need to is another thing.

[@brennansquad]

Dude the $RAM front derailleur is absolutely terrible. I have 30k miles on multiple shimano di2 groupsets with not one chain drop. I rent a Sram Red SL7 from the boulder specialized experience center (great mechanics btw) and dropped my chain 3 times on a 2hr ride in the mountains. Junk, no?

[@jwfriar]

Interesting experience this weekend renting a bike in Boulder, CO (holy crap what a roadie paradise). Rented a Caledonia with Rival, 42mm bars and 32 clinchers at 100 psi. I ride a Soloist with 32 tubeless at 60 psi and 38mm bars with mix Red, Rival and Force Bike felt unwieldily with those wide bars, super harsh with tubes and high pressure, high rolling resistance, super scared to really carve the corners going down the decents, quite a bit heavier, didn’t climb as well, didn’t hold speed. So to the point about choosing an endurance bike, I would say get the race bike and put 32 or 30 tubeless tires and you’re faster and more comfy. At least for me, the bike and the tires were massive downgrades for me in every aspect. The one positive was the wheels were super shallow vs my 50/60s and they were more stable at 50 mph. Per your SRAM/Shimano discussion, Jesse 100% correct in all his arguments. Having a 34/36 for those 1 mile long 12% grade inclines was quite nice.

[@VitaminD8000]

Ran the new michelin competition tubeless tyres. Tests say they perform the same as gp5000str. Ran them because got them from my team, they performed really well, plus side was also a cool F1 look of them. Now back on gp5000str. I would run michelins again if i got them for free or cheaper than contis, otherwise rolling with continentals

[@user-ig9zi8uh7y]

As a 60 + Jessie labeled (SMIL) Senior Male in Lycra averaging " only " 26KMH, I will stay on my " aero", " hot " and "fast" looking Chinarello FiZ . So cheap and frothy! Love the banter between you guys!👍👍👍👍

[@maxsievers8251]

Jan Heine knows about frame stiffness. In Bicycle Quarterly no. 83 pp. 72 he explains the power band of a frame. Superlight magnesium and steel frames flex enough for Jan's endurance output of about 200 Watts and even down to 150 Watts. The only carbon frame Jan knows about which gets in sync at 200 Watts is the OPEN U.P.P.E.R. A standard steel frame might (there is a question mark in the graph). Standard carbon frames are too stiff.

[@Fatbutnotflat]

what do you mean by flex enough? do you mean planing? i have no access to BQ magazines, but i wish i can.

[@RobbArmstrong1]

The SRAM Shimano conversation was GOOD! I have an interest trying SRAM on a build just not too sure on what gearing I’d run, 🤔 Now I will disagree with Jesse on the Battery piece. Being able to swap batteries and carry multiple sounds dope but SRAM batteries don’t last like the Shimano. I’ve never been close to running down the battery on my Di2 system and I usually charge it up like every 3-4 months. Most folks I know with SRAM carry an extra battery & that says a lot IMO. Also the battery tabs on SRAM have been known to break off. The one thing SRAM got right was the *true wireless shifting and how you shift on the levers. I’ve reconfigured my DI2 shifting to replicate SRAM because it just makes sense to me. I’d like to see SRAM add more buttons to their shifters as well. I use all 6 buttons on Shimano. That’d be an adjustment to go from 6 buttons to only 2, ☹️ #RobbArmstrong

[@vishalbehal7746]

So I am that Punter Jessie mentioned just that I am not 25 and in India we pay huge import duties so we have to go a step below Force : my bike is a C2 Toa XS Frame - Built with Sram Rival with C2 Mana bar -380 x 80mm and an Infinity Saddle E3 leather cutout with Carbon rails, 160mm crank upgraded with left arm Quark power meter with Zipp 303S wheels tubeless with Schwalbe Pro One 700c x 28 Tyres it’s an 7k US$ bike build works at 7.5kg with pedals and bottle cage and bar tape and the works 😊

[@Xenos-rx3bo]

So, I can chime in about the Titanium bikes. I'm a casual roadie and recently picked up a rim-brake, clincher Litespeed Ultimate off of a closeout sale. It only cost $300 more than my Disc-brake, tubeless Giant TCR and has better components (TCR is all 105 but the Litespeed is Dura-ace shifters, Ultegra derailleurs, and 105 crank). Is the Litespeed a slower bike? Sure, but I am nowhere near at a fitness level where that 0.5 to 1kg weight difference is gonna be make or break a ride. But, I do enjoy riding the Litespeed more; it feels like MY bike, from the interactions with Litespeed reps, going over components, the updates they send about the build status and the free accessories that they throw in (a bag, teeshirt, and a torque wrench) it feels some much more unique than just walking into a bike shop and buying a stock TCR. Plus, the ride quality compared to the TCR isn't as good, but surprisingly not by that much (and I frequently ride over cobbles and milled roads). I have also clocked faster times on the Litespeed than the TCR. It's probably psychological, the new bike makes me push harder, or maybe I'm better suited to the compact crank on the Litespeed than the Semi Compact on the TCR. But will I keep the TCR? No, I will try to unload it, mainly to save space and also because screw hookless wheels and disc brakes. I will certainly try to get another, more racy carbon bike in the future if I have more room for two bikes, but I will most likely source the parts and try to build it myself. Custom-built bikes really do give you more of a feel that the bike is YOURS.

[@Sai-tb1xt]

all the reasons jesse mentioned are litereally the reason why i got sram i don't bring a spare battery (because frankly..there is no need) but the smaller gears, the easier charging with the batteries and the fact that there is only one cage lenght... as a normal rider this is so much more important than 0.2 seconds faster shifting in the front

[@goldenretriever6261]

28:00 Gravel bikes probably outsell road bikes in Canada. The only new Argon 18s I ever see are gravel bikes.

[@crazyeyes7821]

Mountain bikes often come with a full SRAM/Rockshox OEM spec. This is because SRAM owns Rockshox and offers heavy OEM discounts the more parts a company buys. A product manager can spec a bike almost entirely with SRAM for cheaper than they can get the equivalent shimano parts (as shimano does not sell suspension). I wonder if there is something similar with the road bike space.

[@aser885]

On the point about geometry and differences between endurance and aero bikes, Trek did this years ago with their H1/H2 geometry bikes but have since gone away from it. They need to bring it back