Christian Nationalism Panel | Voddie Baucham, Tom Ascol & William Wolfe

[@ODDDUCK1n3z]

The interviewer asked, What is Christian Nationalism? And for 41 minutes they poorly attempted to define the term or movement by what its not. It’s not a theocracy, it’s not a theonomy…etc. However it’s a country where God’s moral law is implemented by Christians. Their vagueness begs the question. I’ve loved listening to Voddie for years now, and he’s known for his articulate exactness concerning what he thinks, those two attributes were missing in this interview.

[@toddstevens9667]

Yup!!!

[@toddstevens9667]

But that’s the problem. You might think that it’s a country where God’s moral law is implemented by Christians, but my neighbor and my boss think they are Christian Nationalists because they voted for Trump to build a wall to keep out the foreigners from a Christian nation. Neither are Christians, but they both think they are because they were born in America. All in all, I think the whole concept of Christian Nationalism is sort of misleading. Voddie and Tom are trying to do the whole scholar thing, analyzing this movement from a sort of academic perspective. But on the ground, the people who actually call themselves Christian Nationalists run the gambit from white supremacists to mainstream Trump voters to Christians who want to implement God’s moral law. It’s really a political hodgepodge. It seems to me it would be best for the church to completely distance themselves from the movement altogether. Maybe start a new movement with a different name with explicit goals and methods. But Christian Nationalism means too many different things to too many different people to actually mean much of anything.

[@diyside]

I think the problem today is we have lost the doctrine of two kingdoms. The kingdom of the world and the kingdom of God. I dont think Christian Nationalism should exist among christians. They didn't answer the question because the correct answer should have forced them to go against America which would then pit them against their listeners. The reality is most people who call themselves Christian nationalists want to see the country adhere to certain morals without actually following the teaching of Jesus. Just like wokeness, christian nationalism has some moral good in it but at the core its anti-christ.

[@toddstevens9667]

@@diyside Exactly right! Thank you

[@toddstevens9667]

@blobmonster9494 Well thanks for your thoughts.

[@kate60]

Excellent. God will build His Church for His Glory. Live Holy. Fear God. Obey Him in all things.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

The church God built has nothing whatsoever to do with the 100% apostate church the Godless men of the world have built. You have been deceived by the 100% apostate church and its phony preachers like these two in the video.

[@seedsower678]

@@cbvagabond ,.....You are Biblically illiterate and have been deceived by the 100% apostate church. Anyone keeping a weekly sabbath is Gods enemy. They are working on the sabbath and will all be killed by God on the last day for working on the sabbath. The sabbath has been fulfilled by Jesus, and Jesus is the sabbath. Anyone who is actually a Christian is resting in Jesus, the sabbath. The sabbath is now from Jesus's resurrection until his return on judgement day. All those who actually belong to Jesus are resting and doing nothing to attain salvation. Jesus is their salvation. All you blind, lost, and deceived sabbath/commandment keepers are all working for your salvation on the sabbath and will all be cast into the lake of fire. Repent, and learn the actual truth and Christianity of the Bible and stop listening to the 100% apostate church that has nothing to do with God just like their ungodly fathers didnt.

[@seedsower678]

@@cbvagabond ,...Yes, what I explained for your edification was 100% Christian. Everything you have stated here only again exposes your Biblical illiteracy and your spiritually dead and blind state. You have everything wrong and have zero Biblical understanding. God has blinded your eyes just as he did to your Godless mothers and fathers. All we really need to look at here to see how absolutely ungodly you are is the fact that you a woman have been commanded by God to be in silence about the things of God. You are to never try to teach anyone the word of God, nor are you to ever admonish a man. You are in 100% violation and rebellion to God just as you mother jezebel was. You are no more a Christian than she was. And like her, no amount of truth given to you will change a thing. You are just a brute beast made for destruction as the scriptures tell us,..... "But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;" 2 Peter 2:12 KJV "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves." Jude 1:10 KJV "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" Romans 9:22 KJV Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!

[@kate60]

@@cbvagabond That is law not grace. It not essential.

[@kate60]

@@cbvagabond Pride goes before destruction. Guilt monger

[@questioneverything2522]

John McArthur did a sermon called "when the government rewards evil and punishes the good" the best sermon I have heard to date regarding government, Roman's and the church.

[@Mark-qd6ub]

John macarthur teaches a false gospel. You are deceived

[@tpw7250]

Could you post a link?

[@Psalm144.1]

I read John McArthur’s sermons on Romans 13. I think they were from around 2102. Basically says to submit to tyranny no matter what even if Satan himself is placed in charge of one’s national govt. Part of my paper was demonstrating how out of sync JM is with the Church Militant, history and tradition on Romans 13, especially Reformed greats like Matthew Henry and John Calvin. His sermons are found in the GCC archives.

[@Mark-qd6ub]

@@Psalm144.1 macarthur teaches a false gospel. You are deceived

[@Psalm144.1]

@@Mark-qd6ub Your Reading Comprehension level is probably at the 2nd or 3rd grade level.

[@freegiftgospelmissio]

Family-rod Church-keys Government-sword

[@bluemm2852]

What YOU mean by Christian Nationalism and what THEY mean by it are two TOTALLY different things and it is usually a trap. James Lindsay explains this exceptionally well.

[@ReformedSooner24]

Well they’re going to use it anyways, so either we take the term, own it, and define it properly constantly, or we give them a stick to beat us with. People stopped believing them when they cried “nazis!” And there were no Swastikas. But “Christian Nationalist!” Is going to land because we are interested in Christian nations. It’s time to own it. It’s time to also demonstrate where it’s been done before and the fruits of it for the broader cultures and nations. We should be unashamed about the fact that America was originally founded to be a CHRISTIAN nation with freedom of true religion. The founders never envisioned a happy equal mix of Islam and Christianity and Buddhists and the Occult.

[@matthewmidea4754]

Ditch the atheist dude it's not helping you any

[@matthewmidea4754]

​@@jonahamirsir you've created a false dichotomy

[@PastorJerett]

I'm a conservative biblical Christian who happens to be a patriotic conservative American citizen. I believes we need to go out and make disciples for Jesus Christ. It is by making disciples that we create a Christian nation. I also believe as an American that I need to know our founding documents, founding fathers, and founding history. The Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution are the most important documents for our country. As Christian, we should vote with our biblical values.

[@PastorJerett]

@@BeKind4ever-bt5co They need to become a Christian Nations too by preaching the Gospel and making disciples for Jesus Christ. Those nations need to be redeemed. Those nations need something like the Constitution of the United States.

[@craigbeckford4060]

​@PastorJerett It is people like you that cause wars. Your disrespect for other countries believes and their culture is what makes other countries push back at the US and embracing China.

[@grimlund]

​@@PastorJerettWhy do they need to be christian nations?

[@chadmartin1737]

That was phenomenal and beautiful! Thank you

[@stevebrandau9300]

i'd like to see the panel respond scripturally to what the Christian Nationalists believe rather than what others believe about them.

[@tazlizard]

I am so glad to hear this conversation! Not long ago I was called a Christian Nationalist I did not know how to respond because I had never heard the term! All I know is I don't agree with the world's view on abortion, gay marriage and transgenderism!!

[@FinarfinNoldorin]

Yes..but do you also think that you should force your beliefs on others? I still want to believe in Freedom of religion, and freedom in general for all people. We are ALL children of the ONE God.

[@darthbigred22]

@@FinarfinNoldorin People are gonna believe or they don't this is true of anything from God, the Moon landing, who did 9/11, age of the Earth, JFK assassination, etc etc. Freedom of religion failed once you get a large mass of nonbelievers it only worked with various protestant groups. Who got banned from their churches while it was OK to protest George Floyd? Freedom "in general" failed because all that means once you walk away from basic Christian ethnics is people arguing for reverse racism, MAPs, importing more immigrants to destabilize society, or literally asking people to eat bugs. You can chose to believe in what you want and there was a time the evidence backed you up that time is gone and a change is needed.

[@neverpc4404]

@@FinarfinNoldorin forcing people to accept those things as normal and not being allowed to speak out against them is also forcing their beliefs on us which violates constitutional freedoms.

[@EmissariesoftheGospel]

​@@FinarfinNoldorinnobody is trying to force beliefs...that's a misnomer. I don't hold myself to be a Christian nationalist per se, but accept that liberals will call me one...I know plenty of Christian nationalists...none want to force or coerce belief....literally none. We need to stop letting the churches enemies define terms and attitudes for us and the bounds of our political theology

[@USMC-cv5sd]

​@@EmissariesoftheGospel This is absolutely a lie ! Project 2025 clearly wants to do that, and one of the leaders just said they want to keep it nonviolence if the left allows it (goes along with it). You totally lied !

[@georgeluke6382]

If our culture's presupposition on "Christian" is pejorative, should we on that principle say, "it depends"? Or, should we begin "Yes. Let me tell you what I mean by it."

[@georgeluke6382]

8:50 on motives is great. Presbyterians might agree on no national establishment of erastian ecclesial type federal American Church, but, the Christians that constructed much of the country were fine with state-level established churches, just not federal establishment, with the last state with a state church around the 1820s.

[@georgeluke6382]

21:00 on Christian nationalism, theonomy, and theocracy.

[@georgeluke6382]

Around 34:00 there's a great acknowledgement that striving for Christian nations is a good thing, if we define it carefully.

[@gmau3945]

Yes ,only I would not let them place that label on me. One of their weapons is the self- coherent (to critical theory) narrative. IE a monopolizing monologue displaying the main tenants,reasoning and fine points of their "argument". We have to insert OUR Narrative right at the initial false presupposition and fillibuster them to silence. You can't have dialogue with someone whose reality is nothing but a construct.

[@georgeluke6382]

@@gmau3945 I don’t know. I think that’s definitely an option- answer a fool according to his folly. But, I think if someone shows a willingness to listen in relationship and a genuine willingness to change, if they’re open to reason, then you can reason together with them. I worry about Christians automatically assuming anyone who talks like this is just an automaton you have to shut down the first chance we get.

[@lextalionis3754]

It is inconsistent for Ascol to ask someone to define what they mean by “Christian Nationalism” but to refuse to ask what they mean by “theonomy” when asked either question.

[@dannisivoccia2712]

I am a disciple of Christ Jesus, and i am called to love my country God's way.

[@aquatalliahbouchon5005]

Amen.

[@ronald209]

Worshipping of the Lord Jesus Christ alone, as God... I refuse to bow unto any man‼️‼️‼️ 😇🙏🙏🙏🤍✝️

[@dannisivoccia2712]

@@ronald209 God is not one entity. If you have God that way, you do not have the Eternal God.

[@tahuyachris]

But, God never told us Christians to rebel against the ungodly government. The Roman government was doing the opposite of what the government was supposed to do as laid out in Romans 13:3-7. And, God still told the first Christians, in 13:1-2, to submit.

[@Mudsix911]

The same person who wrote those words was imprisoned for what?

[@mikekenyon8483]

God never said not to either.

[@Liberty_Sword]

It's still talking about submitting to good government, not bad government. Just because the government was bad at the time doesn't mean therefore a conversation/teaching taking place about submission to good government, must somehow be about submitting to bad government. For example, it's not saying to submit to the mark of the beast because you're supposed to submit to bad government. It's not saying that Daniel should have bowed down to Nebuchadnezzar's demands and statue because you're supposed to submit to bad government. Etc..ect..

[@mikejames1882]

This is sad to see, we need a movement to rebuild Chrisendom, starting with America. Everything they're saying is what pastors who, like them are correct and Biblical in their general beliefs, have been saying for decades while things have gotten worse and worse. We see where this form of Christianity has gotten us, and it's time to change back to what built Chrisendom in the first place, which is the exact opposite of where these men stand on this issue.

[@OysterPir8]

My hope is not in chrisendom. It is in Christ.

[@RaigDhaad]

@@OysterPir8 Christ commands us to establish Christendom in the Great Commission.

[@OysterPir8]

@@RaigDhaad no. He calls us to make disciples. There's a difference.

[@edwardtalbot5556]

As long as men can be corrupted; there will be no theocracy in this country. Also, we have guns; and a theocratic government will not stand. The signs of an apostle are clearly labeled, if I don't see those things then I will not for one second believe any man or woman saying "God told me".

[@clifforddunn1958]

If by the term Christian Nationalism you mean literally obeying The great commission..sign me up..I'm all for it.

[@Psalm144.1]

Than you are obviously not a Christian Nationalist. Amen to the Great Commission. You are simply a Christian or perhaps a Roman Catholic or a Mormon. The term Christian Nationalist means more than simply a Christian. Descriptions are important just like there are descriptors such as Protestant or Evangelical to describe beliefs beyond the Great Commission. Voddie Baucham obviously takes the term further.

[@erc9468]

@@Psalm144.1 Should we teach the nations to obey all off Christ’s teachings, since He has authority over them all? If we were to succeed in doing so, what might be an easy, convenient way to describe one such nation?

[@Psalm144.1]

@@erc9468 Do you think we should teach all the nations to obey all of Christ’s teaching’s? If so, why are you asking that. Did not Christ command it.

[@matthewmanucci]

There's already a term for this. It's called postmillennialism. More specifically, theonomic postmillennialism. We don't need to appropriate already existing pagan ideologies like nationalism to replace an already existing Christian tradition.

[@calebmundle5948]

@@matthewmanuccispot on. Christianity, not Christian nationalism. The two cities are not one. Christians ought to relegate politics and ideology and devote themselves to Christ in their own lives. Believe in the gospel on its own terms, not for its ability to push some sort of political religion.

[@jankragt7789]

Very well done by all participants. The discussion is in process because of massive cultural challenges at this time. You gave us some clues and approaches for going out and each of us participating actively, actively being part of the solution to the chaos.

[@brettschlee7090]

I just moved to Fort Worth (next to Dallas) and yes, everyone here is a Christian two or three times over... pray for us as we "get 'em lost" first.

[@donnastormer9652]

I completely understand your comment . We moved from the Pacific Northwest to Florida and we found the exact same problem here! Every time we try to share the gospel people will say oh I am saved. My granny took me to vacation Bible school when I was five and I prayed the sinners prayer, but yet they live like the devil it’s very difficult to try and explain biblically what a real Christian is, but actually learning to share the gospel with the way of the master has helped a lot if you haven’t seen that check it out Ray comfort on KZbin.

[@brucefrancis2301]

No policemen needed in your town.

[@terrybeal2252]

Excellent discussion and bonus points for the Star Wars socks. 😁

[@richardwhite3924]

I am a Christian and have been one for over 60 years. My father was an American Baptist Association minister. Whenever I encounter anyone that they want the United States to be a Christian nation or say they are a Christian Nationalist, I ask them "Do you mean a Methodist nation? A Presbyterian nation? An Episcopalian Nation? A Roman Catholic nation? An American Baptist Association nation? A Southern Baptist nation? A Disciples Of Christ nation? A Congregational nation?" Once they get over being stunned at my question, they usually claim that all of the Christian denominations I mentioned are not Christian and the only Christians are the those people who follow their particular, specific variant of Christianity and only their variant should be acceptable in the United States.

[@ezbody]

Everything becomes "Christian" when one is after political power. That's why Putin is one of the most dedicated "Christians" in the world. 😏

[@EmissariesoftheGospel]

I've never found them to want anything other than at a minimum Nicene Trinitarianism and an orthodox gospel to be suitable to rule. I've talked to literally thousands on the subject. That question wouldn't stun anyone that I know. The people that you talk to are interesting

[@KYONGSUKSEYMOUR]

You have given me something to use. I consider myself a Christian first and a conservative second. I believe that I must fully believe in the teaching of the Bible and do my best to live a biblical life. I am not prefect. I do fail at times. But I realize that I don't give up. I believe that I can be against the things that the Bible calls unbiblical and sinful, and still be loving and respectful to those who disagree with me.

[@robertdavidson9674]

That's a straw man. You are talking about an unbiblical mixing of church & state. A Christian nation is defined as a nation whose judicial system is committed by oath-bound covenant to enforce the law of God in it's criminal justice system. It has nothing to do with denominations, so please stop muddying the water with your denominational red herring..

[@questioneverything2522]

Excellent panel discussion.

[@daviesthecoach]

Can someone help me understand the difference between Christian Nationalism and Dominion Theology. I seem to be mixing both up. Thanks

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

Davies,..... I dont think there is a lot of difference between them. Kind of just two different names for the same thing. Nevertheless, both are fantasy and delusion. This whole idea comes from fake Christians that do not understand the Bible. The whole world and the whole apostate church will never change and never become more Godly, It is only going to continue to become more and more ungodly.

[@loganholdaway769]

Dominion Theology is broader than Christian Nationalism. Dominion Theology involves more than the sphere of government and includes also taking the spheres of media, journalism, schools, etc for Christ whereas Christian Nationalism is most directly concerned with the sphere of government.

[@Psalm144.1]

@@cbvagabond Almost every state in America had a State Religion in the beginning of this country. Also, there wasn’t really any persecution in England after the Act of Toleration in 1689. I’m not advocating for Establishment, just saying it doesn’t always lead to persecution. The wonderful Evangelical leader Bishop JC Ryle fought in his era against the voices of Di-establishment. He was an Anglican Bishop and Baptists and Presbyterians listen to his sermons and read his work more today then Anglicans!

[@Psalm144.1]

@@cbvagabond I think you maybe got me mixed up with someone else. I didn't mention the Catholic church (Roman Catholic) here at all. I talked about an evangelical I really appreciate and admire, Bishop JC Ryle, and English and American Church politics/history.

[@neverpc4404]

Don’t get caught up in worldly terms. The only one that matters is Biblical Christian. If you are that, they can and will call you whatever they want. They called Christ all kinds of things, why would we expect anything less.

[@dmustakasjr]

If you listen to everything that Greg Bahnsen taught on Theonomy, from its definition to the application, it is inescapable that the modern "general equity" recognized as a fulfillment of what Dr. Bahnsen taught. Bahnsen was no legalist with regards to the OT civil law, he used it as an example, and argued to modernize its application wherever it made sense through "the moral nucleus" of the ethics of the law. It was the penal sanctions that I believe that modern church leaders have the biggest problem with what is recognized as Theonomy, over and against either GE or Christian nationalism.

[@LampWaters]

Bloody Tenent of Persecution

[@dmustakasjr]

@@LampWaters How so?

[@FamilyRide-kc8my]

It amazing how so much was said but noting was said. Very confusing. Very simple God commandment was written two table of stone 1-4 One, 6-10 Second. 1-4 love for God, 6-10 Love for your fellow man. 1-4 Government can NOT legislate. 6-10 Government can legislate. But how is it all these scholars talking about obedience and non of them obey the 4th commandment?

[@David-kd1rw]

Not sure why Voddie thinks only baptists are opposed to a state church. Joe Boot, a presbyterian, has written much on this

[@YourBoyJohnny94]

Baptists don’t realize most of their anti church and state beliefs come from freemasons.

[@traceyedson9652]

I’m finding these discussions & presentations helpful. I’m Orthodox (as in “Eastern”) and the Church has a somewhat different take. Yet, a major difference would be in the local church as “Christian.” Orthodoxy teaches that the Church is literally the Body & Bride of Christ, and believers should, through faithfulness & repentance, seek to attain unto that. The “Christianness” of the Church doesn’t derive from believers but from the Spirit that I dwells Her. That would make the Church a much more vivifying & sanctifying presence (leaven, salt, light) in culture. But we’d arrive at basically then same place and these esteemed gentlemen propose.

[@erc9468]

That’s all very true and I think these folks would agree with everything you said. They were making a more narrow point in response to some rather simplistic critiques. Specifically, some Baptists criticized attaching the label “Christian” to anything other than a regenerate individual. Voddie and Ascol were saying that’s a silly argument, and they’re right. If you followed that fallacious logic all the way down, you couldn’t call a family, a college, or a church “Christian”.

[@ezbody]

Well, the Russian Orthodox Church also faithfully serves the needs of the government when no one is looking. It appears that this is the direction that the American "Christian" church/harlot is taking with its "Christian" Nationalism and such. 😏

[@branchofthevine779]

No one can serve two masters says the Christ. I am of the Nation of God first before any nation of man.

[@Psalm144.1]

Do you think it unbiblical for someone to serve in the US Military? What about oaths of office?

[@branchofthevine779]

@@Psalm144.1 No. However, no one can serve two masters so says God incarnate or do you disagree with Him.

[@branchofthevine779]

@@Psalm144.1 Matthew 6:24 24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. Ye cannot serve God and work for mammon. It means in equal part. God MUST ALWAYS be first and all things of this world Second by a distance. It is the order of God, Amen!

[@tahuyachris]

In Hebrews 11, the Holy Spirit gives us examples of faithful, godly living, which we should follow. In verse 13, the Spirit says that these examples counted themselves as strangers and exiles on the earth. And, in verses 15 and 16, He says that they did not consider their earthly nations as someplace to be returned to. But instead, they were seeking a Heavenly kingdom and therefore God was not ashamed to be called their God. Jesus told us the same thing in Matthew 6:33, seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

[@Mudsix911]

And then he also says to make disciples of all NATIONS in chapter 28, and earlier in chapter 6 he prays that his kingdom would come on EARTH as it is in heaven. They're not mutually exclusive, friend. Jesus gets all of it.

[@Zaloomination]

The term Christian is also a pejorative. It annoys me when people call themselves "Christ follower". I say let's own the definition and plant our flag on it instead of hopping from one term to the next because we have political and spiritual enemies.

[@jordantheriverman6143]

That is an interesting point, brother!!!

[@Zaloomination]

@@jordantheriverman6143 thank you. There are several pro CN books out there now that use the term despite the media's turning it into a boogeyman, because it is an accurate term. It is important to explain what we mean by things like Voddie says but we cannot play leapfrog with terms forever, because our enemies will never stop accusing us of being omniphobes

[@jimmock1155]

I guess you don’t agree with these guys.

[@Zaloomination]

@@jimmock1155 I dont doubt their wisdom but yes I happen to disagree. The godless left owns the media. They can continue to chase us no matter what term we choose. Look how they "misidentify" us pro lifers as "anti abortion". Should Stephen Wolfe have chosen a different name for his groundbreaking book? Ultimately it's the position that the left hates, not just the name. Eventually you decide to stop running and insist on defining the terms. Especially with Christian Nationalist, it's a simple and accurate term.

[@Psalm144.1]

Where do you live in which the term Christian is a pejorative?

[@TrueTruthin66books]

The founding fathers of the United States government wisely, rejected pure democracy as the form of government for the new nation. They believed that pure democracy could too easily fall into anarchy. They very thoughtfully chose the republic form of government. Also, in 1 Samuel we are told the story of how God really did not want the Israelites to be governed by a king, but they insisted on choosing Saul. They chose Saul, because of his physical appearance, he was more handsome. They didn’t look at his qualifications to rule them. He was a donkey hunter. We must take heed to the end of this story - l Samuel 15:35 And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the LORD regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

[@tracyavent-costanza346]

incidentally what is "southwest florida"? is this really alabama?

[@juliusigoh9118]

A few days beginning of October 2023 , my right leg injury not accident 7/10/2023 I went to Church Sabbath day , Surprise in middle East until now what happened

[@susanellis4684]

What quote are they talking about that "Steve" made?

[@christianfamily684]

I have the same question?

[@KevinDonovan-m8w]

Has anyone else commented on the socks on stage here---pretty bold, hardly conservative (maybe Voddie's. purple) : )

[@TruthIsAsOldAsGod]

I say we trash the whole term. It’s not like we need that title to define us. It’s being used as a tool of Satan. Get rid of it. Refuse to define it.

[@markhawkins7793]

Would it be good to make Sunday great again? Or would it be a counterfeit of the actual fourth Commandment

[@PhilipBaker-sf4yv]

Ressurection of Christ on the first day of the week more significant than creation itself. Thats why it is The Lord's Day

[@markhawkins7793]

@@PhilipBaker-sf4yv wow. No biblical Authority for keeping the first day holy is that your Sabbath ? Do we abolish the fourth Commandment?

[@mashah1085]

Easy determination. Do you believe in democracy...for all Americans? Do you believe in equal rights...for all Americans? I'm glad if you say "Yes", but then tell us how you plan on implementing your beliefs in public policy without impinging on those other people's rights?

[@tracyavent-costanza346]

@4:45 so does "be careful" just mean that you don't want your underlying ideology to be exposed? So you can run for public office or claim to influence the legislative process (or file lawsuits to interfere with some existing laws being enforced), but remain under the general media radar about being a nutcase? Is that what you mean by "careful" or is that actually some kind of intentional misrepresentation in order to pass as more competent than you actually are, to participate in a democratic goverment? Remember, being a christian-dominionist, would directly contradict the oath of office (also the oath to RUN for office) for any elective post in the USA. It avers NO reservations about preserving and defending the US constitution. Dominionism ultimately advocates abolishing the US constitution and setting up some kind of divine monarchy. Hence if you advocate any of the above, you are unfit to hold office and unfit to stand for office either.

[@ronin8898]

Christian and nationalist are contrary to the church. The church is supreme, and the head is Christ, followed by ones family. Your nation and its politics are your contribution to Ceasar as a citizen.

[@spartakos3178]

If you do not want an Islamist, Pagans, Nazis or Communists to be in charge of your nation's nuclear arsenal.... Congratulations you are a Christian Nationalist

[@samueljimenez7420]

No

[@Psalm144.1]

Absolutely not. Christ is Lord.

[@Spaceghost87x]

The church is Supreme in what way and over whom ?

[@ronin8898]

@Edward Rebb The church is headed by Christ.Therefore, Christ/God is over you if you are a Christian. Scripture and church history do not support a nationlist view. Nationlist is a political construct in practice the context of being a responsible citizen to your community/government, etc. However, as a hierarchy, it is God/Church, family, and then nation. This notion is somewhat foreign in western churches. However, in the eastern Christian orthodox world where the faith started. Mixing of church and state has never been orthodox.

[@davidolson8537]

@36:00….It’s both, right? It’s National and Local. It does matter who is POTUS. How we manage our borders and how we deal with the rest of the world (foreign policy) has real impact on our lives. It would also be fairly easy to argue that most of us have more influence and control the more local that we get. The family being the most local. And then we move outward toward our congregations, our schools and school boards, yes, the sheriff and the city government, and all those other institutions in entities.

[@jamesbuchanan3888]

Roman's Chapter 13 is often overlooked. The most ignored part of scripture is that there is one and only one purpose for which the sword was given. Many pastors would have us believe that we are obligated to obey to the point of aiding and abetting when the governing authorities wish to use the sword for all manner of economic and social engineering. The obligation of our obedience is counterbalanced by the governing authorities obligation of restraint. I ask, at what point did the Haulocaust become evil? At what point do the governing authorities go too far? ... IMO, this is answered by scripture by limiting use of the sword to one purpose. The "good" done by authorities is best done within their jurisdictional limitations.

[@Logos-Nomos]

It is the Credobaptists' view of the government in enacting pluralism since Roger Williamson that has led us to our current situation.

[@drumrnva]

How could anyone who respects personal liberty endorse religious nationalism? This was what I expected- a meagre response to a growing threat in America.

[@LauraDickenson]

In Voddie’s talk, he did an excellent job showing how the ethos of America did come from Christians. And how personal Liberty was a basis for this. It was a good history lesson. He also had good teaching of the liberty we all have.

[@tracyavent-costanza346]

@5:45 if drag-queen-story-hour should be criminalized, then your own conference should be criminalized too. either you participate in a society where the first amendment is PRACTICED or you don't. The first amendment does not say whether the expressed ideas were always going to be politically popular with anyone overhearing them. Moreover it really implied that sometimes they WOULD NOT be, but that lack of popularity IS NOT a legitimate reason to regard the statement as criminal. Nor does the first amendment say anything about whether children might overhear it either. Nor even anything about "sunday school" attempting to propaganize children before they had been encouraged to develop skepticism. So as previously stated, an ideology openly advocating abrogation of the first amendment, cannot just apply to your political adversaries. It would also make YOUR statements potentially regarded as criminal and at least seditious.

[@andrewdavidson8167]

Here’s a question concerning Revelation 13 Was the governing official that Paul tells us to obey, did that official obey levitical law while making his governing decisions?

[@Psalm144.1]

John wrote Revelation, not Paul.

[@andrewdavidson8167]

@Psalm 144:1 So Pauls point concerning governing officials is in conflict with what John wrote? So a contradiction?

[@Psalm144.1]

@@andrewdavidson8167 You Wrote: “Here’s a question concerning Revelation13…Was the governing official that Paul…” Me: John wrote Revelation to include Revelation 13. Revelation 13 is a vision about a beast rising out of an ocean. (And I saw a beast rising out of the ocean…).

[@andrewdavidson8167]

@Psalm 144:1 I realized I made an error and I meant to say Romans 13. I don’t know why I typed out Revelation 13. That was my mistake Since you are willing to answer the question, I will correct myself and ask from Romans 13, who was the governing official during Pauls time when he wrote that passage?

[@Psalm144.1]

@@andrewdavidson8167 I think you mean Emperor? I don’t know the exact date the letter to the Romans was written. You could google search what scholars speculate, typically Nero. There were always several different governing officials at different echelons throughout the known world at the time Paul wrote the letter. I certainly don’t know their names. Some governing officials may have actually did the right thing and correctly punished criminals. Most Christians believe the correct interpretation is that Romans 13 is descriptive not prescriptive. Also, thankfully everyone has went back and re-read it since liberal Christians have been trying to shove it in everyone’s face. It is not a blank check for tyranny nor does it grant governing officials to determine what is good and what is evil.

[@kyriosity]

What are the chances that Voddie's purple socks would be the calmest ones on the stage? ;-)

[@mr.aj.33]

“Be a real Christian and act like it.” Amen! Great conversation.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

So, are you under the impression that these guys are Christians?

[@jacobholstein]

I was enjoying a dinner with a brother in the Lord and loose discussions of political and Theological things came up. Christian nationalism was referenced in a negative way along with Tucker Carlson's name. Why am i supposed to be against it. Because Nationalist brings up National Socialism thoughts perhaps? Am I supposed to be afraid that Trump is like Hitler or am I reaching here? I would appreciate any commentary.

[@lisag9442]

Great discussion!

[@robertlotzer7627]

We currently see Christian nationalism and anti-Christian nationalism in our society. Neither is the right approach and both are rooted in reactionary unbelief. We are pilgrims and aliens in a world that is not our home. We expect what we have, work diligently to proclaim the gospel and trust that God will bring to pass all his holy, sovereign will to his glory.

[@toothumbs]

Religion should stay out of Politics

[@Philipians121]

Christ is king of all areas of life

[@toothumbs]

@@Philipians121 Kind of belies "be in this world , not OF this world" Any Pastor who tells you who to vote for, get the hell out out his graceless church.

[@PhilipBaker-sf4yv]

Politics should stay out of the Church

[@toothumbs]

@@PhilipBaker-sf4yv Correct. Thats why tax exempt status should be removed from all religions.

[@DavidMccallister65]

If someone asks you that, just ask them, "What is a Christian Nationalist?".

[@grantguidroz7640]

Was Constantine the first Christian Nationalist?

[@shilohsanders5475]

Im 27 minutes in and still no definitions presented. What is the deal with this question. It’s a panel on Christian nationalism, and no one will even present a definition they don’t agree with.

[@pinnitt]

Who is this pastor? The video doesn’t credit him 🤨

[@AnglicanCuriosity]

Isn’t this the opposite of CRT?

[@gregoryolquin6664]

This is like watching german civilians in WWII claim that they aren't nazis but understand that there is a jewish question that needs to be answered.

[@AndersonWave17]

Well… it does 😂 Still unfortunately

[@Rory-co4vm]

@@AndersonWave17and you showed yourself. You should never have any political power

[@AndersonWave17]

@@Rory-co4vm The culture is changing toward the right. You should find an answer to the question yourself

[@Rory-co4vm]

@@AndersonWave17 cool. I should definitely support something because it might become more popular in the future. Good thinking there.

[@Rory-co4vm]

@@AndersonWave17 I already did find the answer btw. Jews don’t control the world, in fact no one group controls the world. The main power that controls the world is the United States of America, followed by China, then Russia, then Germany in about that order. Just because the United States has a strong Israel lobby does not mean Jews control the world.

[@rickjohnson6818]

Great discussion. It seems prudent when asked "are you a Christian Nationalist?" by responding with "that depends on what you think a Christian Nationalist is." Yet...have the same conversation but remove the term Nationalist: "Are you a Christian?" The answer should be "yes" or "no" regardless of the inquisitor's opinion of what one is. The only thing that matters is the truth.

[@matthewmidea4754]

The label "Christian" itself started as a pejorative too, did it not? Yet we call ourselves Christians. We dont let the enemy's use of the term determine what it means but rather what the words themselves actually mean.

[@martinwhite8333]

I am firmly convinced that none of these people have ever looked at the ministry of Jesus in the Bible and accepted his revolutionary appreoach to life and community. READ YOUR BIBLE!!

[@buildingbridges4806]

When you state that the government should create laws towards Christian ends, you're talking about Christian Nationalism. It may not be an extreme version but it creates a slippery slope towards creating laws based on the bible interpretation of some Christians. We are a constitutional Republic with a basis in democracy. We base our laws on the Constitution not the bible or some people's view of God's moral law.

[@Psalm144.1]

Well, what Book was mostly cited as the authority for the basis of any law? What theology was behind the idea and reason for checks and balances?

[@buildingbridges4806]

@@Psalm144.1 Locke Second Treatise on Government

[@Psalm144.1]

@@buildingbridges4806 It was Deuteronomy. And many other books of the Bible.

[@buildingbridges4806]

@@Psalm144.1 I guess that's why we take women of the defeated in warfare as wives, forgive debts after seven years, stone disobedient sons and adulterers to death, and marry rape victims to their their rapists for fifty shekels

[@Psalm144.1]

@@buildingbridges4806 I’m confused how you came to that conclusion. If you don’t see the Word of God as good, and how to apply it what do you then? The founding fathers did.

[@jrrgotmemes8835]

Bro is wearing Mandalorian socks 😂

[@brucefrancis2301]

Where do these spheres com from; not the Bible!!! John 18:36 says christ kingdom is not of this world.

[@DualCannons]

If most people mean wanting to make America a forced Christian nation…why do you want to co opt the term and embrace it with an altered definition? Just say no for crying out loud. Wolfe is the worst of them all cause he always says yes to the question. He is a CN in the bad sense of the term.

[@scottcamp9266]

There is simply no such thing as a Christian Nation and there has never been…the church is the Holy Nation❤️🙏🔥

[@EmissariesoftheGospel]

Just like there's no such thing as a Christian family, a Christian school, a Christian church, a Christian education, Christian entertainment, or Christian theology....there definitely cannot be any usage of the term Christian except for regenerate individual

[@smt0202]

That is a ridiculous claim to make. So there can only be pagan nation but in no case can there be a Christian nation?

[@aquatalliahbouchon5005]

There is such a thing as a Christian family, my parents were Christians and all their children are.

[@janebekkema3388]

Christian Natioalismis a trap!@@aquatalliahbouchon5005

[@tracyavent-costanza346]

@1:45 obviously voddie and his friends have never spent 5 minutes listening to the people who show up at pro-trump rallies. I might agree that they also do tend to "define" christian-nationalism by their own terms, but frankly there is no objective definition for it. Vaguely it is some kind of ideology that conflates christian-dogma with some post-apocalyptic USA-version as culmination of proto-christian apocalypticism. the biggest problem with which of course is that yeshua (jeezus) is portrayed as having had apocalyptic ideology but none of it had the least thing to do with the USA.

[@darrenwise8528]

Who are these folks who "worship democracy"? I've not come across them yet.

[@Psalm144.1]

No kidding. Typical for leftists to say you’re making an idol of “insert anything good…”

[@michaelksmith579]

His opening question was are you a Christian Nationalist. Then he asked for their 60 second answer. If you watch the first two sessions, you will get an answer to what is a Christian Nationalist.

[@Emanuel_carey]

1:12 and 2:18 you aren’t a fool that’ll let yourself be trapped.. but you’ll walk into it and say, ‘yea, you’re right…” you made no sense

[@blakekendall6156]

If you read your bible, it is pretty plain to see that government is a secondary consideration for the believer. Engage with the state as is appropriate for the context in which you find yourself.

[@mattityahubentzur6220]

Find a healthy church? He's just not getting it yet! The Ekklesia isn't a denomination, any denomination, or any place! It's the people who are born again, walking by the Spirit of Messiah, walking by the word of Yehovah Elohim; and, when even two or three of those people come together to pray and study Messiah is right there in their midst! So come out of every single "church" which doesn't believe that, and meet together with those who are born again from house to house, and support each other! You don't need to be a part of any denomination, or any certain "church" so called, you need to come together in the Holy Spirit of Messiah and walk according to His word! You don't "find a church", you come together and allow the Holy Spirit to assemble you, because the Ekklesia is not any building or program, or denomination, or organization, or corporation but a living breathing body with Messiah as the head! You have a home, you have the ability to meet with others who are born again to study and pray in your home, you don't need to move and "join a church"; because, that's not what the book of Acts shows us! You need to come together, in small groups and be assembled to each other by the presence and power of Messiah living inside of you! It really is that simple. Nobody can lock that down unless you allow them; and, then you have bigger issues!

[@DaddyKratosOfTheShire]

Vodie Bacham, Shawn McDowell, Lee stoneking and Martin Luther King jr is my Mount Rushmore

[@retrograd332]

The issue is the term is a trap and the well has been poisoned. I am for theonomy, but why don't we just go back to that term?

[@4jeffinseattle]

rushdoony and Christian Reconstructionism (Wikipedia). Christian Nationalist is NEVER mentioned in Scripture. Theocracy (example: the state of Iran).

[@snippletrap]

Institutions cannot be neutral. If Christian values are not asserted in public life, then other values will predominate.

[@erc9468]

That seems so obvious, I can’t believe most Christians can’t see it. The question isn’t whether, but which.

[@aaronblake1467]

I love hearing these pastors speak on CRT and wokeness. These ideologies should not impact or influence the church. Both of these Pastors make that clear in boldly speaks against it and the issues of it. However, I was hoping to hear the some consistency with Christian nationalist ideology. I I noticed that majority of the people they speak in front of our White. As a pastor your message shouldn't cater to those who you're speaking to. Hold them to biblical truths as well

[@juliusigoh9118]

Accident 24/4/1990 3 days in Hospital Kuching Sarawak more than 3 months 2/8/1990 Sadam Hussain Iraq---Kuwait

[@Spillers72]

The founders believed in natural law that does come from God but are derived from nature and reason. These laws are universal and commonly shared among many religious traditions. As a Christian libertarian I believe in the non aggression principle. Basically as long as you're not hurting anyone, the community leaves you alone.

[@erc9468]

You may want to listen to Voddie’s preceding lecture. The founders certainly wanted a weak, Federalist national government. But most of the original states were Christian states by law, and this was perfectly compatible with the US Constitution. I like the NAP as sort of a legal interpretation of Jesus’ Golden Rule. It’s a good rule of thumb. But there are laws that protect society at large that are needed. I don’t want Walmart selling Equate-brand Fentanyl to my teenager. Not good for him or for the society at large.

[@darthbigred22]

No thanks you deny the problem because you want to sit on a bench because it's easy. The days of being left alone ignores that the modern christian can't even send their kid to school anymore without worrying some freak will try to give them hormone blockers. The Founders saw what happened in France and didn't change a single law, they knew liberalism was a wedge for atheism and let's be honest atheism is not about leading us to some Star Trek like utopia it seems to have always been tied to some weird sexual hedonism.

[@LampWaters]

States and national are not the same. Y not Christian states? Why is their first bite the whole pie? Why not start with a city or town and a county and then a state b4 proposal of national. But I doubt any pushing nationalism will do much outside their own books, podcasts or pulpits.

[@jamesbuchanan3888]

Common law structurally requires Christianity AND a separation of Church and state; because checks and balances require a separation of powers. The checks and balances of separating Church and state are accomplished through court structure. ... A defendant may choose a bench trial or a trial by jury. In a bench trial the laws of the state will be applied without regard to morality. If state law is corrupt, a bench trial with corrupt laws must also be corrupt. In a trial by jury the jurors are sworn to give a true verdict. A defendant can appeal to morality (Church doctrine) as a legitimate defense. State law cannot convert an intrinsically innocent act into a guilty act.

[@scottpettus7904]

Did anyone else notice that Voddie first rejects a Christian nationalism that is defined by "the Bible wrapped in the flag", and then later defines the proponents of Christiaan Nationalism as "anti-American." It can't be both ways. so which is it?

[@philipmurray9796]

I think he's referring to the idea of America being uniquely special to God such as a new Israel by the idea of being wrapped in the flag.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

@@philipmurray9796 ,...america is babylon. It was created as the resurrection of babylon. The deadly wound that was healed. babylon was dead, and now it is back now known as america.

[@philipmurray9796]

@@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436 based on what? How would any of the original recipients of the letter get to that conclusion?

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

@@philipmurray9796 ,....One comes to this conclusion by an actual understanding of Gods word.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

@@philipmurray9796 ,,...The entire church is 100% apostate, and the churches counterfeit christianity is the christianity of babylon, absolutely not the Christianity of God, Jesus, and the Bible. All actual Christians that exist have nothing whatsoever to do with anything called the church.

[@irisbristow2977]

We can be christian patriot, a person who loves God and their country. Nationalism rightly or wrongly smells of superiority which can be manipulated towards hatred of others. Everyone should love their country, be a loyal law abiding hard working person and a patriot. We may be ahead of some countries in many areas but we should always remember we are all human and desire the best for each other. Governments may have to do what was done in two world wars but as individuals we are told by The Lord to love but not without truth. If we love our kids we set boundaries, we make consequences for wrongdoing, we seek to keep them safe from danger whether physical, mental, emotional or mental. The danger can come from bad parenting, bad education, bad church and even bad homes and of course today social media. Those born in a country stole seek its good. If you choose to live in a country to which you move, or flee then you also must seek the good of that country. I am a follower of Jesus and His teachings so a Christian and throughout my life have lived and worked and worshipped with people from all over the world. I have also had very good relationship with Hindus, Sikhs, atheists etc as they were keen to be friendly to me. Governments have to make good laws which if broken will bring consequences and this for the good of all.

[@toughbiblepassages9082]

Don’t we already live in a Christian National society? The laws of the land are EXTREMELY influenced, if not reflective, of the Old Testament law.. save for a few examples.

[@toddstevens9667]

No, America is not a Christian nation. Just watch the news every night: Mass shootings, abortion, progressivist ideology, drunkenness, pornography. Nothing Christian about this country.

[@jamesdykes1829]

Christianity! God! Many believe there is a god. However tell me something about christ jesus ministry. Truly it was not one that robbed killed and destroyed.

[@AnglicanCuriosity]

Imagine CN being a thing in 66-70AD.

[@danv4046]

Church is to proclaim the Goodness of Jesus which will Lead to true repentance and restoration of the holly spirit which Adam lost when he died! Grace Love Goodness of the Gospel is the Power unto salvation of the sole!! Not the LAW of condemnation....

[@d.rogers5287]

The Father of Christian Nationalism Gerald L K Smith. A true founder 😂joke

[@d.rogers5287]

Do your own research history homework

[@lbee8247]

How did this video seem to attract so many self righteous trolls 🤦🏽‍♀️?

[@Logos-Nomos]

The Great Commission is a Commandment to teach all nations to turn from their sinful humanism and to turn to the King of kings and Lord of lords.

[@tahuyachris]

God is very clear in Scripture, He chose only Israel for Himself. In Genesis 12:1-4, God makes a covenant with Abraham. And, God passed that covenant on to Isaac and Jacob. Jacob is Israel. Deuteronomy 14:2 says to Israel, "For you are a holy people to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for His personal possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth." Israel alone is God's chosen nation. Romans 11:1-2 says that is still the case.

[@mikekenyon8483]

No it doesn't. Israel ceased to be a chooses people at the cross. Israel is the body of Christ not the jews. The hews made themselves the enemy of man and God by turning Christ over to the Romans.

[@Hupernike45]

Every believer needs to be an apologist. 1 Peter 3:15 is a command to all believers, not just the "special forces apologists". "...always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you..." So, almost every single time a believer gets a question from an unbeliever, like"Are you a Christian nationalist", follow Jesus' example of answering a question with a question. Your answer to a question from an unbeliever should be "What do you mean by that?" Like Voddie was saying, someone asking that question is almost always on the offense. Or, like in a courtroom, they're acting as a prosecutor. So, if they're making assertions about what a Christian believes, it their job to support their assertion. It's not the Christian's job to refute it.

[@Logos-Nomos]

Natural Law Is NOT God's Law. It is subjective humanism. Nature is not the Standard. God Is!!!!

[@christalone71]

This discussion was unhelpful to me. It seems like brothers in Christ could come together and all get on the same page as far as the mission of Christians in the world. This division amongst brethren is not good.

[@ericmatthaei9711]

I just noticed the Texas A&M class ring worn by Tom Ascol. Gig'em! (Not relevant, but any comment is good for the algorithm.)

[@tomascol8179]

👍

[@Logos-Nomos]

The Westminster Confession of Faith is the Creed that defines what Christian Nationalism is. Many countries have been guided by God's Law until their covenant breaking in the past hundred years or so.

[@brucefrancis2301]

Founding of America: voddie, are you saying Christ would have participated in the genocide of all the natives of the land and then enslaved millions of people and killed generations of these people??? Is that what you think of Christ, the anointed one???

[@Vhrekhttglmhhvsz]

News flash, the natives were already practicing genocide amongst themselves and enslaving each other

[@leullakew9579]

Not all of these people who claim they’re Christian are actually Christian, a good chunk of these people only say they’re Christian because their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, and ancestors were Christian. There are many people who are only Culturally Christian, Nominally Christian, or Diest who claim to be Christin for social or cultural reasons but in actuality are Atheist, Agnostic, Deist, Unitarian Universalist, and New Age Mystics, etc. Also, remember that the United States was NOT founded as a Christian nation, a good chunk of the Founding Fathers were Culturally Christian, Deist, or sacrilegious heretics that syncretized Western Classical thought, American exceptionalism, and even in some cases White supremacy with Christianity creating a false religion called “American Civil Religion” by sociologists that on the surface looks like Christianity but in reality is very shallow and just co-opts Christian and Jewish terminology for state propaganda. - Well a certain faction of Americans who call themselves Christian or even Evangelical Christian believe in heresy. Plus when they surveyed a certain bunch of Political Conservative so-called “Evangelicals”, a majority of them knew next to nothing about the faith they claim to believe in, but actually are either atheists or theologically liberal Mainline Protestants LARPing as Evangelicals because the Republican Party told them they’re Evangelical because they hold mostly Politically Conservative (even specifically social conservative) views while their Theology is mostly Liberal (unorthodox and heretical). Most of them usually just check the “Evangelical” and “Christian” boxes or call themselves that only for cultural reason, because their great-grandparents/several family members were Evangelical Christians at some point, or they’re practitioners of Civil Religion (Western Classics Civil Religion/American Civil Religion) who are co-opting Christianity, Evangelical Christianity at that, to push a political agenda or social movement (especially among Political Conservatives).

[@Psalm144.1]

The era of cultural Christianity in America is pretty much over. It was a thing very prevalent in the 80s and 90s, I was born in 1981. The cultural Christians of my generation left the Church.

[@jacobticer1643]

Is the nation an end in itself ?

[@markwood1668]

Critical theory will destroy every institution in America - so yes!

[@Psalm144.1]

Is a law against murdering children an end in itself?

[@thecrypt5823]

Yes, I believe so. The Bible teaches that nations are created by God and are the inheritance of Christ ("Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance"). That sounds like nations are an end in themselves. If you see the way the Lord speaks to Abraham about the future nations that God will create through Abraham's promised child, then yes, this would also imply that a nation is an end, just as children are an end. Every nation starts with a child: Edom came from Esau, Israel came from Jacob. The Canaanite nations came through the children of Canaan. If you read Deuteronomy 2 and Acts 17, you will see that God decides the boundaries of all nations, when they will be born, and when they will be given over to judgment and their land given over to others. The Earth is the Lord's to give to whom he desires. In the New Testament, the great commission calls us to make disciples of all "nations," not just to make disciples of atomized individuals separated from their families, tribes, and nations. Yes, God calls individuals. And yes, God works in families, which are gestational nations: "The promise is for you and your children." The word "nation" shares the Latin root "nat," meaning birth ("nativity" and "natal" share the same root). Unlike a state, which is a political entity that can rule over any number of tribes and people groups, a nation is a biological creation of God through a single progenitor, at least as understood in scripture. Strictly speaking, the only difference between a child, a family, a tribe, and a nation is the number of generations born through that child. God's blessing on the righteous is "for a thousand generations," which necessarily includes tribes and nations. If a child is an end to itself, then so is a nation. With all of that being said, Christ said that if we do not "hate" our families in comparison to our love for God, then we are not worthy of God. This means we love them less than God, and we must seek to please God even if it is perceived as hatred toward them. It is godly and important to honor your parents, lineage, and national ancestry, but it is never good to love them more than God, otherwise we devolve into national idolatry, ancestral worship, or the adoration of family and children over obedience to God. Abraham himself was tested by God in the midst of his love for Isaac. A nation, in that sense, can never be a chief end in itself, but must, along with everything else, be submitted to God on the altar of willing sacrifice. Spiritually speaking, we Christians also form a godly nation and holy priesthood beyond natural distinctions. This does not erase our physical nationality, just as Paul himself acknowledged his Jewish nationality in Romans 9-11, but it does supersede our physical nationality in the context of the body of Christ, with whom we are in one spiritual family. The multitude of families, tribes, and tongues persist into eternity, as observed by John in his Revelations. These nations are not erased, but are redeemed into the family of God. Thus, even at the end of time, it appears that nations are an end to themselves, subservient as they are to the chief end of being revealed as children of our Father and Maker.

[@michaelfalsia6062]

All believers who are sanctified and walk in the spirit of truth are as Peter says we are a holy nation before God in Jesus Christ! Our nationhood is spiritual and relates to our citizenship in heaven and our lives as members in the Kingdom of God. That is our answer for the ungodly who may ask this trick question.

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

MF,....Correct, the few actual Christians that exist have nothing whatsoever to do with nationalism. Especially the nationalism of america that is in reality the nation of babylon. The actual Christians have nothing whatsoever to do with politics nor any manmade nation. The problem is, the entire church is 100% apostate and is of the Godless world, not of God as they think/pretend.

[@Psalm144.1]

But how does that answer to important temporal matters like whether or not our children have to be subjected to wicked transgender indoctrination or abortion?

[@michaelfalsia6062]

@Psalm 144:1 Christians are commanded to raise their children in the fear and admonition of the Lord not the children of ungodly unsaved society. That is why believers home school or send their children to a solid Christian school. We are not called to fight political battles such as keeping these evils out of godless government institutions. We can vote for Candidates who will oppose evil or those whose politics are more in line with the word of God and the Christian faith etc. But that is as far as it goes for the people of God. Our call and duty is to preach evangelize and witness for the truth of the gospel to the unsaved while we ourselves demonstrate the grace and power of a godly life and faithful testimony to all around us. No soldier who goes to war does not entangle himself with the affairs of this life since his aim is to please the One who has enlisted him. 2 Timothy 2:4. Jesus never commanded or encouraged his disciples to become involved in social reform or to fight and protest sin in the world. We address sin in its relation to the fallen corrupt heart of man. We are not social reformers but living witnesses to the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. There is nothing political or social in the great commission. If the power of the gospel should have a good effect on wicked society and restrain its evil and rebellion against God all well and good but that is not our priority or ultimate aim in doing God's work. Working and striving to see sinners saved properly baptised taught the truth and made into faithful disciples who will live not for this world but the world to come as He works in us to will and do of His good pleasure. The murder of the unborn has not been abated through aggressive political action on the part of Christians. Even with the Supreme Court ruling abortion is still legal in every state in the union even though some states have placed limits and restrictions in the ghastly process. Abortion will never be illegal throughout the nation. We can preach and witness by the facilities and encourage and even plead a strong case with anyone who will hear us not to commit this heinous sin. However we do so in order to present the whole counsel of God in the gospel to the lost women considering this. Can a believer be content to save the life of an unborn child while the individual remains lost in their sin and under the wrath of God facing eternal damnation? The answer is of course not. By the way Blue States are banning together to assist any woman who desires to murder their child. This includes pay for transportation and the expenses. So much for the pro life movement and its national political success. The Kingdom of Christ is not of this world. Paul used his trial and Roman citizenship to preach the gospel not challenge the way of the Roman empire just as Jesus ordained for his life as an Apostle. We ought to do the same.

[@Psalm144.1]

@@michaelfalsia6062 My children are home schooled because I want them to grow up with a Christian education. I don’t have a calling to preach the gospel outside of my family. My pastors in my local Church, they have that calling to preach. I’m a Soldier, that’s my station, my calling. It’s perfectly fine and Christian to be in govt. or run for office…and or get involved at the local level, and to care about protecting one’s family. If you don’t care about politics and policy than you can’t complain if crime rises and your child or wife gets assaulted. There is nothing unbiblical about being involved in things we have to deal and interact with.

[@michaelfalsia6062]

@Psalm 144:1 You are a witness for the truth of the gospel first and foremost. How far do you get involved in anything without a faithful gospel witness? Unfortunately you have misunderstood what i meant. You can be in politics or join law enforcement and do good in the world. You can get involved in a political campaign to a degree and support good candidates etc. I have done that but never to the point I leave off my first love and priority which is bearing a faithful witness to the the Lord Jesus and the gospel. Let the redeemed of the Lord say so. If you don't have a gospel witness in whatever you do, and I mean an open witness before men that you are a follower of Christ you are not saved and the truth is not in that person. God has ordained that sin of all sorts reigns among the ungodly and there is only so much which we can do to mitigate it without forsaking our gospel priorities. Which is why you home school. And I praise God you are in a position to do so. If our hope is in this life only then we are of all men most miserable says the Apostle. Why? Because sin and death reign until the Lord Jesus returns in glory and that is our great hope. What's your responsibility to those who have a false Christian faith? A false religion? Atheists? Agnostics? It is to have Christ proclaimed to a lost and wicked generation. Through your own effort and through faithful gospel ministries. It is about priority. We are in the world but not of the world therefore it should be plain to all that we belong to Christ and we live to please him in all our human endeavors. No one detests this sinister LGBTQ movement more than I. My response is to support candidates who will oppose it and keep it away from vulnerable impressionable children. I will vote and support candidates who are committed to prevent transition therapies to under age adults. I also know that this will not stop the sexual perversion rampant in society because God is giving this nation over to its wicked desires. The Gospel not political energy will be the only means to save anyone from this course of destruction. Support anti LGBTQ candidates for office at the polls where this battle has any hope of being mitigated. But let us not be consumed by it or any other evil in the world. Rebuke and resist sin by the cross and prepare to suffer for it. Because if you think your going to be well received by the unsaved if your politics is Christ centered and looks to the law of God even among conservatives you will be very disappointed. And that is the way it should be. If your faithful that is. I am not singling you out I'm talking generally about all of God's elect. What I say I say to myself first and foremost. God's blessings be with you.

[@jeffreyludwig2111]

Pastor Ascol talks about “healthy churches” but faithful churches would I think be a better term. The adjective “healthy” is non-Biblical. Sound doctrine, love if the brethren, solid male membership and leadership, rejection of sin, lifting up the fruit of the spirit, Christ must reign and be worshipped with all our mind, heart, soul, strength, and we must be born again. A church that follows these values in a world governed by God-rejecting laws will be persecuted. The overlap between church and state which began with Constantine’s conversion and through the Reformation is collapsing. The state is becoming an enemy of the church except insofar as the church caves to the state. Therefore the God-loving purists will likely be persecuted even more actively in the future, not merely canceled. Cancellation is an early stage mild form of persecution like the way certain florists or bakers have been treated. May the Lord give us strength dear reader!

[@kaikai2meripng]

Is Tom wearing Star Wars socks? 😂

[@shannoncrawford7212]

Christianity in the west has failed in protecting our societies and public spaces from degeneracy. And TBQH Sharia law has done a far better job in the areas/nations that it has power/control, even in specific locations in America where it has the population/force to be effectively implemented. Much of western Christianity has ignored how our lives should be ordered and the fruit that should come from faith. And as a result have passively allowed our communities, societies, and nations to be overrun with rampant degeneracy, with some/many “Christians” either supporting or actively participating. We fail to understand the book of James, that faith without works is dead. And just what is meant by working out our salvation with fear and trembling. We are not justified by works but if we have none and live lives full of degenerate behaviors flaunting them in the face of God, do we have true repentance and faith. And have also been blinded into thinking that muh freedom and muh democracy means that the government has no role (and/or is forbidden) in controlling the public space from degeneracy. Even though the Bible clearly lays out that the governmental authorities are ultimately accountable to God, and their function is to order society according to his precepts while protecting the vulnerable. And when the ruling authorities are corrupt and wicked it is a terror to the people. The US government is currently ordering society in accordance with their religion, and governments always will. It’s just that their religion is atheistic, Satanic, and driven by control through economics and degeneracy. There can be no neutrality by those in disagreement, we are ultimately not going to be able to peacefully coexist with evil running openly rampant in society. And people in positions of power willing to yield the sword against degeneracy is how it is stopped and controlled. It doesn’t address the heart condition of every individual, but it does keep open society/public spaces clean. I think many theoretically understand that we want leaders/rulers against degeneracy, but don’t want to take the leap that using the force of the state is often times necessary to stop evil from public influence and widespread acceptance. But would rather hope that the evil forces passively submit and not use “freedom” as the tool to implement their evil and degeneracy on a society wide scale. They are/will use muh freedom as the gateway to influence and power. I do agree with much of what Christian Nationalism espouses, seems to be a Christian version of Sharia. Or more accurately, modeling government after how God had intended for the nation of Israel to function in the Old Testament. And the ideals of what a Godly ordered life and society looks like. However, as a side note, I do think they fail to see the importance of mostly ethnically homogenous societies, and the role that plays in keeping a stable high trust society. At this point the demographic make up of many nations (including the US) are what they are, and as Christians we must live and treat others as commanded. Although we can fight against furthering the confusion and natural divisions being brought about by governmental immigration policies. But if we see a violent shake up of our nation and a natural restructuring of societies and the nation. I think we would be wise to take this into consideration. The world has definitely thumbed its nose (by design) at God’s order established for nations in Genesis 10.

[@jhart297]

Well said

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

It seems to me you used a whole lot of words to say basically nothing. Here is what you should have said,....the entire church is 100% apostate and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Christianity of the Bible. The church and the Godless world/government both have the same atheist religion of scientism.

[@cesarchavez9897]

Yes

[@kansasgal55]

After seeing how “ Christianity ruled the 45 I don’t want to be associated that’s not Jesus following : Father help us for they know not what…

[@shadowbannedforspeakingtru1436]

@@kansasgal55 ,....The fact is, no actual Christian has anything to do with any politics nor any nationalism of any kind. The few actual Christians that exist are not of this world, their nation is Gods Holy nation that is made up of the few Christians and the Bibles real Christianity that is not found in anything called or known as the church. John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." Also, if anyone is an actual Christian they will have understood that in John 8-23 above there is a clear statement that uses the terms above and beneath, (below). The whole Bible uses the terms above and below. There is no above and below on a spinning ball flying through a 100% fake space/universe. There can only be an above and below on a flat stationary earth. Where God is above, and the earth and its people are below. So, anyone that is actually a Christian and is not of this world, knows, understands, holds with, and defends the Bibles flat stationary earth. Those who are of this world have all been deceived to believe that the earth is the Godless worlds 100% fake manmade graven image of their spinning ball. These are those who hold with some form of nationalism because they are of this world and not Gods world.