FSD Supervised v 12.5.1.1 - Unprotected Left Turns

[@timaustin2000]

Chuck, I think that median creep was to take its rear end out of the lane behind, not to creep into traffic

[@relaxingwindow6137]

Agreed.

[@SlingShotKid007]

Agreed but super sketchy for Chuck because he has no way of knowing what the car is thinking. Someone mentioned (maybe Chuck) how if the car could communicate what it's doing by speaking "creeping to get in center lane", "committing to left turn" etc. that would make the driver feel much better.

[@timepstein274]

I was thinking the same thing. Only problem with this logic is being squeezed from both sides if the left turn suddenly becomes unavailable. It would be just as bad if the nose was sticking out causing cars to move out of the left lane to avoid

[@polarlight1369]

I agree with everyone about the median creep being done to make sure its back end is in the median area as much as possible, but the best way to do this would be to use the question mark maneuver that Chuck saw the Tesla team doing the other day

[@phildavis9671]

Chuck was saying before, that he would like same type of notification of intent. I always wanted an audible single on the commit.

[@matthewcertainMD]

The indecision at 4:28.... I think it was trying to get the tail of the car out of the cross traffic.

[@mrneveryoumind]

It shouldn't need to creep to get the tail out, it should just do it first time. And i'm sure it will.

[@brianp8384]

Yes, it didn't start to creep until traffic came from the left.

[@stoic1024]

Agree. Exactly what I would have done.

[@jeanderbar]

@@mrneveryoumind Ideally, yes. But it's better that it did it after the fact than not at all.

[@WilliamDeanPlumbing]

Chuck at 4:20 when it's slightly creeping forward maybe it's just getting the back end the rest of the way into the medium. Since it was sticking out and traffic was coming.. 🤷🤔

[@formytots0128]

One of your best UPL videos Chuck. :) That's 100% zero intervention. Great progress by Tesla_AI team. Great video setup to see all angles. Thanks for your effort Chuck.

[@alwin230]

PAY ATTENTION TO THE ROAD CHUCK! I wanna get that instead of the normal warning chime

[@sergeysolovyev2111]

Came here to see the unprotected left turns after a year and there is definitely a huge progress. Looking forward to see what will we have after another year :)

[@0i0d]

4:45 seemed ok from the drone. It was getting itself out of the rear lane

[@Fabian3331234333]

That thing got incredibly good

[@RubenKelevra]

4:51 you got your snapshot button back, great!

[@hanhhoang2009]

Thanks for the video. Great as always. You should get a medal for not disengaging at the median. It is exciting to watch your videos. Please stay safe.

[@jeanderbar]

4:39 Its rear was sticking out on the leftmost lane, so what you interpreted as an indecisive creep might've just been the car improving its position on the median.

[@scotty523]

I feel like the creeps at 4:40 was for protruding rear positioning. Seems like the FSD should have ‘creep for positioning’ alert to put drivers at ease. But the hugging that yellow line was indeed weird.

[@unrealisticgoals]

amazing idea

[@joby6462]

Thx Chuck. Your narrative adds significant depth to the video!

[@johny1220]

I love that you have a camera showing the whole street lol that’s awesome man! I love how much FSD is improving, hope us HW3 plebs get 12.5.1.1 this week. 🥹

[@gordielechance2200]

Glad they quickly gave you your snapshot button back!

[@gregm1855]

Everyone should have it

[@kellymurphy9844]

Thanks Chuck - It would be interesting to have a newbie passenger (on their 1st ride) react to creep, faux creep (while watching the monitor), rear end hang, and left lane hug.

[@remingtonsypro3160]

Great video Thanks Chuck.. little different on Lane centering but better then the outer lane. Looked like the second to end one was good on Lane centering. All good maybe a tweak needed on that.. Thx 4 sharing.. 🇺🇸✌️

[@tonyfromaus7855]

Great vid Chuck. Love the car cam views. Thanks. Just leave them up all the time? I agree with earlier post that left hug might be recalibration required. Looks pretty good nowadays I think.

[@donkisiko]

Wipers strike again! At the end of the video 😅

[@shallenberger57]

@ChuckCook Recommendation for a new Tesla to address odd behavior like hugging the left line. 1. Thoroughly clean all the Cameras. 2. Perform a camera recalibration. This is not just me talking, this came from a Tesla Service technician where it fixed my odd early stopping at Stop Signs. He said the car could have had a dirty camera during its first calibration or one of the cameras could have moved slightly after initial calubration due to a hard impact vibration, like a pothole. Please let us know if this helps.

[@georgem5589]

Thank you for that!

[@jasonpanosh9579]

The thing is you never know what the new AI logic is. It's not like a continuous improvement system where you have the existing behaviour and build onto it, it's like every update it's relearned everything. To me it looks like it is taking the gutter and the right lane line then centring around those two points. The yellow line isn't part of the calculation.

[@georgem5589]

@shallenberger57 By the way, that worked. Car wash -> recalibrate cams -> Happy FSD again!

[@shallenberger57]

@jasonpanosh9579 If that was the case, then all the Tesla's with this update would hug the left side of the road. My Tesla is still doing great after the same update. He has a brand new Tesla, and I was only providing some thoughtful advice. He can either follow or ignore it.

[@jasonpanosh9579]

​@@shallenberger57 yeah, no issue with that. Lots of little issues crop up with these cars.

[@MrGMawson2438]

It seems to be doing good

[@reasonitout9087]

Yesterday I was on FSD 12.3.6 with H.W.3 AI INDUCED ROAD RAGE! (Funny actually) my Ai did a rational thing safely and stared-down an irrational merge-lane-Police! I had a very interesting experience. Three lanes merged into one center lane for left lane road work. My Tesla Model 3 starting in the right-hand Lane which had traffic cones narrowing it down to push me to the center lane. It did a great job pulling into the center lane even as it was getting packed up and all the gaps were disappearing. 2 So that was okay . the second stage of this situation was that the center lane with me now in it started to compress and slow to a crawl. 3. So my Tesla decided to jump into the left lane which at that point was vacant. We took off like a bat out of hell as it went into that left lane. At this point I was unaware of that that left lane was going to disappear as well. No push-over cones yet in sight. This all happened quicker than I could figure it out. 4. So immediately some jack^$$s in the center lane saw me coming and must have figured I was breaking every law in the universe and he wanted to stop me and so he pulled out quickly to block me. Tesla did not slow downbtill the last second and stayed in its lane. There was at least half a football field ahead of me with no cars in it and it was technically legal for me to use that lane.5 so my Tesla immediately slowed down. Came close but did not hit him.... came within three or four inches of his front left Fender. He blinked and came out no further. Since there was so much room ahead in that lane I had plenty of time to merge back into the center lane. Ordinarily I wouldn't do this but the car did it and I thought that it was kind of interesting.

[@jayahn123]

Ty very much for all you do!

[@niklasgamborg9562]

The more i've seen ur vids, the more respect/and almost fear I have for your work. What if it commits at the wrong time? 😳😳 I defo appreciate your work, thx Chuck!

[@tjmozdzen]

No signs of a question mark trajectory to get to the median.

[@flyshacker]

Great job! I’m glad it’s you and not me. But the car did fine. I got a little nervous, but maybe that was your unsure observations more than the car’s behavior!

[@thisApex3D]

Hi from Europe

[@KenCharleton]

Thanks Chuck. 360 Cam is good.

[@phildavis9671]

I use FSD and watch a lot of KZbin vids of FSD. Over the past years I definitely see improvements. I also think it will get to a point that the FSD team wants. As for the process of getting to the end point I’m not sure. I still see the same faults on my drives, it’s just that the same faults change in position and or severity at the same location. I drive on fully marked roads but the lane width is just under at 8 feet wide and very twisty. It has always been to close to the double yellow. In some versions it move to the right with on coming car but never consistently between ver. I’d never lane centers on these roads and seems scared of the right side white line. Pre ver 12 it would enter the turns to at a good speed then realize it didn’t have enough steering input to stay in its lane then slam on the brakes. Will with 12 it doesn’t slam on the brakes it just maintains speed and goes straight into the other lane. You can see it in the path planner that it’s going to happen. IMO they are teaching with percentages and in each instance the percentages need to change and they can’t. And trying to learn from humans, that’s a joke. How many people actually use turn signals properly. If they do how many people turn on their turn signals on before they actually slowed for a turn. Most of the time it while they are turning. Rules are rules, laws are laws. I’m not talking edge cases. Most people can’t maintain a given speed, that’s one thing I truly hate about V12, I feel like I’m in a yo-yo, I love cruise control and I loved that autopilot maintained a set speed. Now its speed control is like humans and it completely sucks auto offset on or off. I think they need to be asking the training set what it is thinking because it feels like they just keep moving issues around with percentages.

[@drakiec]

I noticed mine would hug the right side of the lane when there was oncoming traffic on a two lane road with dotted yellow line in rural New Hampshire this weekend. Almost like it was giving space.

[@johnmoe6055]

Finally some willingness to not just go down the center of the lane. When I've used FSD (I mostly keep the car set to TACC these days), driving down the center of the lane was probably my most common disengagement reason.

[@SailingFloh]

Yes another video can't wait for 12.5.2 😂

[@ChuckCook]

You and me both!

[@jeanderbar]

I'm personally waiting for 12.5.1.2

[@alexp.6406]

@@ChuckCookwhen the first unsupervised robotaxi ride is given, Chuck better be invited to the banquet with AI team.

[@rr716100]

I'm waiting for 12.5.1.1.1

[@MurrayFCohen]

Hey Chuck, this is the first time I’ve seen your channel. Great! I’m in Los Angeles and my 12.5.1.1 just downloaded about a half ago. After watching your preview, I can’t wait to try it. Btw, I like “hugging the yellow line” “feature.” I felt like the centering in the left lane should favor the left side of the lane. Mostly because we have very little oncoming traffic because of median dividers and/or continuous left hand turn lanes. Btw2. Do Creep, Roll it Hold modes change the dynamic in FSD?

[@MrGMawson2438]

Hello Chuck

[@markanderson1974]

Awesome from Scotland.

[@meiringen12]

But 0 disengagement 🤔😎

[@rosco7159]

Chuck: curious to know if the removal of the blue limit and median region markers creates more uncertainty for you. From my perspective the markers offered a layer of predictability and reassurance, which now seems a little absent from your commentary.

[@Str8ABH]

Although odd, I will say at least it’s hugging the left hand side of the lane versus the right.

[@dreamburn1]

Does your FSD hug the right? Mine hugs the right side of the lane and it is so uncomfortable. I have the incremental release after 12.3.6 on HW3. It is awful in that respect, but so amazing otherwise. I sure hope they solve for lane centering so it doesn't just wander in the lane or hug the sides.

[@sirousmohseni4]

Thanks

[@RedBeardOps]

Thanks for this... I'm patiently waiting for the CT FSD! 😬

[@ranig2848]

That creep was signaling the cars coming from the right that it was going into the left lane so they won’t change lanes (and also, if they do, give them enough space to do so). I’ve seen it many times with human drivers and to say the truth, I believe I do it from time to time. Also, hugging the left when there’s traffic in the center lane is a good move especially right after the turn

[@MrGMawson2438]

Cheers Chuck

[@shallenberger57]

Another great video. One incredibly important suggestion for you and every person driving FSD. If it does something odd, like hugging the left line, disengage, push the right scroll wheel, and Report the Issue to Tesla. This will help Tesla make this technology even better.

[@health101DOTorg]

Chuck, please, when FSD does something it shouldn't, like not be centered in the lane, please disengage and leave a VM "Not centered in the lane; too close to edge" so that the FSD team can be alerted to this new, bad behavior. Otherwise they have no way of knowing (unless they watch your videos, which they might, but we shouldn't assume they do when it comes to FSD improvements). Thanks!

[@BigBen621]

As one of the OG testers, he has a report icon that doesn't require disengaging.

[@health101DOTorg]

@@BigBen621 Yes, true, but that button wasn't pressed when FSD drove too close to the left side of the lane. This is something that lots of "beta testers" do, or don't do in this case. They should be disengaging so they get the opportunity to leave a voice message for the FSD team explaining what happened that shouldn't have happened.

[@RubenKelevra]

3:40 it may be now using the curb as the edge of the road instead of the line. There were some issues on those very rolling curb stones which are like 30 cm flat on the road as driveable space. FSD would previously recognize the edge from the asphalt to the flat curb stone as edge of the road and weave in and out on the other lane because of that.

[@CCxWudz]

The car drives on the left yellow line like that where I live @ 1:04. It's done that since V12

[@jasonpanosh9579]

So it looks like they have removed the creep limit indicators from the visualisations? I haven't watched all your videos yet, but on these ULT videos since 12.5 I can't recall seeing the creep indicators. Do you see them on any of your drives, or are they gone? But of a shame if they are gone they provide much needed confirmation and confidence to us mere humans.

[@lucidf8]

Now I’m wondering if FSD is signalling intention to take the inner left lane by creeping at the median…. Oncoming drivers from the right who are seeing someone at the median might be motivated to change lanes to the right if they see someone occupying the median… Other drivers MAY take this cue and vacate the left lane, but FSD would have to confirm that the left lane clears before committing to left turn completion. This would mean that FSD is “trying to influence” the flow of traffic to create an opening? That would be next level! 😂

[@graemeesmith]

Regarding the lane positioning and hugging the yellow line, for v12 has always been really inconsistent in it's lane positioning. I haven't noticed it in your videos a lot but here in Colorado that's not unusual at all. One of the top minor annoyances I'm hoping to see fixed.

[@rwhirsch]

chuck, the one that you flagged...no. 4?... from above it looked good. it crept forward to get the cars butt out of the road...then it went into the left lane. that's how it looked from above.

[@andrewfeeley156]

Even the indecision seemed as if it was verifying and waiting for the light colored car in the center lane to make sure it was not going to change lanes. I'm sure it felt different in the driver seat but from above it actually looked like one of the best samples.

[@DanFrederiksen]

In a previous video where you took over because of the straddling pickup I think you held to the side of the lane to make maximum room. I wouldn't rule out that they are training on your driving. The white model X driver also seemed to keep left biased but not that much.

[@테슬라투더문]

미국 비보호 좌회전은 미친 짓같다. 신호등이 있어야 할 정도인데 없는게...비정상이지.

[@darylfortney8081]

yeah it loved hugging the line during the demo fsd month in my 2022 s also... recalibrate cameras maybe, though it does seem to know it's hugging the line so not sure maybe just a lane centering bug.

[@davidneuzil9356]

Interesting on that yellow line hugging.

[@mavinswapp9663]

At 4:22 it was creeping to get its tail clear from cars coming, not to make you nervous about going into the new lane.

[@richardeagan7820]

The current progress is amazing, but... hugging the line is no bueno! Previous versions did that, but v12 fixed it and I'm sure it will be fixed again.

[@shdmd2118]

Chuck You are the man. But I have to say, creeping is the way for the car see better . You are assuming the car has 2 eyes on a swivel like Human, but it has 8 fixed eyes It I am confident about one thing, it’s that FSD will never drive into another car, everything is calculated and visualized with the 8 eyes

[@rjkyle]

I’ve been seeing left line hugging for a very long time. It’s not consistent and not that common but it’s been happening for many versions.

[@m3Tesla]

I wounder if you need to recalibrate your cameras? Might be affecting the indecision/lane centering.

[@KevinGoldenEnterprises]

11.3.6 regularly rides the line on the left. To the point of riding the bumps on the line for long periods of time. Have to disengage frequently because of it.

[@georgem5589]

My car is HW3 so running 12.4x, just got an upg, but my car hugging left lane sometimes as well. Unsettling to say the least.

[@chrisp1336]

2nd to last UPL did not seem to hug left line while I was watching the car location on the screen??? Interesting.

[@brennan353]

At 4:28... I got a very similar indecision situation with 12.5.1 two days ago as my car advanced so much in the oncoming traffic lane that it confused the car coming from the left before I could disengage. Until we can develop a measure of certainty of proper behavior in this type of circumstances, it will be difficult to view FSD other that a fabulous technical accomplishment...in development. In my case driving with FSD in other than near optimal conditions is more demanding than driving without it.

[@TellCookie]

I noticed that the path planner wasn’t center with the car when it was hugging the yellow line

[@ivantang1405]

I hope one day Tesla Al will drive with Chuck share its renovation over the time

[@timothyryner]

I wonder if the left bias has anything to do with more Cybertruck training in the data set, a wider vehicle will look to put the lane line in a slightly different place.

[@kevinl.]

Lately, FSD hugs left part of lane on v12.3.6 for me sometimes

[@mariusm62]

The behavior at 5:30 it might be due the range limitations of the cameras. It could be that just as it started to go, vehicles appeared at the edge of the cameras range, thus pausing and hesitating.

[@benedwards3849]

Saturday 8/4 Melbourne to Pensacola via Turnpike, I-75, I-10, FSD when passing cars and semis will frequently cut back too soon. viz Semi headlights filling rear view mirror.

[@George2647g]

I reckon they used the training data from your turn and one of the trainers liked to hug the inner curb. Can you test it more in much more worse traffic? We have probably over 10000 of these turns in Australia and some of them are on huge busy interections so it really needs to get these right if it wants to have any chance of driving in australia. A common occurence is a car on the median turning left in front of you who who often have to wait for or they will move over to the left so you can get through yeah.

[@coolbart66]

V12.3.6 hugs the left yellow line on me. It always has.

[@thomasschroedl336]

I dunno. Looking fine from the drone.

[@mikeyc8139]

Ugh. I hope they didn't screw up lane centering again. Haven't had a chance to try 12.5.1.1 yet but really early v12 versions had that problem: sometimes it'd go far enough over the outside lane line to roll over the rumble strips. All the nails and debris are over there, Elon. Keep us away from that! 🤣

[@mikemulrooney4824]

Good vid

[@brendondouglass8741]

Could that slight creeping/indecision be the car trying to get in that centre holding bay? Seems like the back left could be slightly hanging out and it’s seeing oncoming traffic tryingto its rear end in?

[@MikeCasey311]

I wonder if left bias in the left lane isn’t a safety practice? It gives more distance from vehicles in the adjacent lane. We humans drive in the center of the lane because we are not as precise as an automated vehicle.

[@RubenKelevra]

4:22 there's a fourth ghost car on the display :)

[@chrisp1336]

Seems like it is different from Cybertruck. CT goes way to the rt and loops around to stop in center island. Your car does not do that.

[@mrconana]

Lane bias to the left is odd. I get similar intermittent behavior on my road but to the right. It’s odd for you since this was validated on your turn before distribution!

[@dreamburn1]

v12.3.6 (and the following incr. release) hugs the right side of the lane in my car. It is so uncomfortable, I almost never use it any more. It looks like 12.4 and early versions of 12.5 center the lane pretty well, but I don't want to update if it's going to start hugging the left now. On the rural roads I drive it practically drives in to the ditch on the right, and drives over the rough shoulder. It's awful.

[@MEDI0DARK]

mine has been hugging left lane since i bought it. i’ve been reporting but no improvement even now. 22 MY. car used to have snapshot but tesla got rid of mine. also if car see white or blue cars on my left side it will actually move close to left. also a white van was riding on the left side of my lane and car doesn’t move right to avoid side swipe, and response so slow to left side.

[@jorgesmith2000]

I have v12.3.6, and it also keeps riding/hugging the yellow lane lines on 2 way roads. Not good. Wasn’t like this in previous releases.

[@gnargnargnar]

Chuck, how many miles between disengagements do you think FSD is at?

[@tonymcflattie2450]

Your car should talk to you, about its intentions. So you could actively monitor it. For example, it should say, waiting for traffic from the left, waiting for traffic from the right. Accelerating in 3,2,1.: That way you not surprised by its bullshit

[@OhYaSure]

I agree. System should constantly be giving feedback to the FSDs intent. Even if just cruising in current lane is the status. I want to know.

[@MrNiceGuy485]

Can you report the hesitation issues?

[@taysmit5320]

Leave the 360 cam please. All the way through

[@stefanandersson4818]

Ok, so I am pretty sure I know what is going on. I have seen this many times and for all versions. The difference between versions is the decision from the system. I e stay safe or gamble and potentially crash. This occurs when the angle of the car is something like 60 deg off the road to enter at a stand still. Turning right, looking left or vice versa. Normally the car is at 90 deg or as in the on ramp situation single degrees off entered road. What happens is that the system has a "blind spot" where the two side cameras overlap. As all camera systems they are imperfect, especially at the edges of the view. Its just optics, it gets distorted by many technical factors. Thus detection of objects become more challenging at those angles. When stitched together a pixel from one camera will also not overlay exactly the same real object, For anything the images are not one to one and the cameras are not radially placed in a circle. So what Tesla probably have done in the decision model is to move from gambling that when it sees nothing, there is nothing to instead realize that, "hey, maybe I am at a blind spot and leave the decision to the supervisor". However this is only true when the car is at a stand still for a while and do not have the possibility to creep and as said at a particular angle. So most testers have probably not noticed it. Poor judgement is not evident unless there is a real consequence to it. In the long run you cant drive probabalistic in high stakes situations. Creeping changes the geometry of the view mitigating the blind spot issue. When as in your other attempts the car is continuously moving the "blind spot" shifts relative to what it tries to observe making it less prominent. In effect, another unsolvable thing for this hardware setup to reach robotaxi state or leave level 2.

[@perrinmossino974]

Sketchy, seems you are often unaware of what FSD is going to do (especially on these UPLs). This require split second decisions not sure it is safe to put people in these situations. I would rather reroute but there doesn't seem to be an option to avoid these high risk roads and intersections.

[@chrisbelyea9591]

Looks like it’s centering using the kerb rather than the yellow line. Maybe it can see the 3D structure a bit better

[@markdickert3604]

You get nervous because of human nature of not trusting a computer’s decision. Slightly rolling does not bother me like it appears to make you uneasy.

[@6681096]

Near the left yellow line gives you a little extra margin for cars who drift or wiggle (playing on their phones or whatever). I'm shocked that so many people think it's an issue. What am I missing? When you showed the camera it was never even on the yellow line just near it. I would like to see more of a question mark when it goes to the median.

[@kadamian]

does FSD copy driving behavior from human adas operators or it thinks by itself?

[@robertwhite3503]

It takes an average of the video clips shown to the training computer. They can show more clips from any source to bias it in a desired direction. If they showed a lot of clips from an ADAS person it would begin to imitate that driver more.

[@0i0d]

FIRST AGAIN

[@ChuckCook]

Winner!

[@importon]

This is gonna take another 10 years

[@edhill8568]

Why do you say that when every turn was successful?

[@importon]

@@edhill8568 because I've been a FSD "tester" for years now, and the constant loop new improvement + new mystery regression persists. We've seen no evidence this will stop.

[@edhill8568]

@@importon We're in agreement I just misunderstood your post now that you've clarified it.

[@BigBen621]

You know full well, or should if you're commenting on FSD videos, that everything prior to version 12 was abandoned, and is completely irrelevant to the current progress. The end-to-end NN version was just introduced in March, and there has been dramatic progress since then. This is the basis on which any judgments of progress should be made, and not what occurred years ago.

[@importon]

@@BigBen621 Did I stutter when I said I've been a beta tester for years

[@thewolfdoctor761]

Looks like FSD is getting worse.

[@BillBadMule123]

[@curt8806]

🥱 why can’t they teach their model how to do more useful things like flashing reds and ramp lights

[@BigBen621]

All in good time...