Villain Therapy: WENWU from Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

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[@kazumajay]

John, Alan. I know he had only one movie. But could you talk about Mr. Fred Rogers. We all need a bit of him now.

[@lizzythequeer3065]

Last unicorn 1980?

[@i_am_pickle8869]

Day 115 of asking: Do you think you guys could do a video on Steel Magnolias or The Joy Luck Club? They are some heart-wrenched movies that deal with grief and family bonds and womanhood that I absolutely adore.

[@lizzythequeer3065]

@@i_am_pickle8869 that sound interesting

[@i_am_pickle8869]

@@lizzythequeer3065 I would highly recommend watching these two movies but be prepared to cry. Bring the tissues!

[@therussianprincess7036]

I felt Wenwu was much scarier than a lot of the “supernatural” villains in the MCU. Maybe it’s because his anger, grief and desperation are such real problems, or because his love for his family is real but directed at the wrong goal. He was not a good man before he settled and he has not really abandoned his ways in the end, so I could not root for him or hope for a “redemption arc”, but what I could do was *understand him.*

[@benjaminjane93]

Wenwu was many times more intimidating than most Marvel villains. Guy was a man on a mission and he would not be deterred by anything.

[@miintybiscuit]

Very well said! I remember at the end of the movie not necessarily feeling sorry for him but same as you like… *I get why you did what you did* . As someone who’s familiar with grief, the desperation I saw in his actions resonated so strongly with me. I nearly started bawling in the theatre. 😭

[@CortexNewsService]

@@miintybiscuit you actually made me think about Wanda in Wandavision. Grief breaks something inside you. It can heal or it can fester. I've had that level of grief. I absolutely would have ripped the world apart to get them back.

[@miintybiscuit]

@@CortexNewsService yeah. Now that you mention, I remember the agony I felt when watching Wanda grieve her loss. Come to think of it, if I had similar powers, I don’t think I would stop myself and I would do everything in my power to bring them back.

[@eshbena]

@@miintybiscuit Most people who had problems with WandaVision were people who have probably never suffered the kind of trauma, abuse, and loss that she had. I have gone through a similar journey (minus the cosmic super powers, sadly) so I felt everything she was going through and understood perfectly how she got there. I also felt like there were people in that universe who were pushing her towards that spiral of depression and desperation and that not all the fault for her actions could be entirely laid at her door.

[@coffeeteamix]

I am so sad that, in the end, Wenwu still didn't acknowledge his daughter at all. As his life flashed in front of him, he only thought about his moments with his son. With his dying breath, he had a knowing glance/stare down with his son, but at no point did he glance back at his daugther or call out to her. Even in his dying moments, his daughter was nothing to him. So sad :(

[@silveryfeather208]

Sexist. Unfortunately

[@nikkoa.3639]

I think the movie in general kinda glossed over her in a lot of ways. Which is a shame since this grief affects them all as a family

[@10Raccoon]

I'm pretty sure she will get her time to shine in the future since she seemed to be rebuilding the ten rings at the end of the film.

[@ptowndrew2183]

Also I feel like that neglect is going to be a big part of his daughter's drive in rebuilding the ten rings. I feel she will defiantly be more anti hero, hopefully they will address this in later movies

[@metich3]

It reminded me so much of Azula & Zuko. But, with their mother .

[@dragonbretheren]

One of my favorite filmmaking details in Shang Chi is that they flip the conventional Hollywood color coding. The antagonists are all color coded blue while the protagonists are color coded red/orange.

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

That's a Chinese thing! Red is lucky in China.

[@arcturionblade1077]

@@CinemaTherapyShow Bingo. Red is most definitely an auspicious color in many Asian cultures, particularly Chinese. Shang-Chi's color being orange-ish gold when he inherits the Ten Rings from his father is no coincidence either since gold is also considered lucky and a warm color.

[@AnInsideJoke]

Well, the whole "antagonists wear red" is more Western color coding, whereas Eastern color coding is very different (ex, in the West, white = "purity," while in the East it tends to = "death." Which could be why during the scene where Shang's mother died, it was snowing and she was wearing white. Could just be me reading too much into it though). In this case, it could be what's known as "Red Oni and Blue Oni," with the "red" characters being more reactive and emotional, whereas the "blue" characters are more "logic" driven and can seem emotionally detached.

[@michellestewart4788]

@@AnInsideJoke I felt both color symbolisms of white in the film. In the scene where Shang's mother is killed, it's almost like the filmmakers wanted us to feel both the purity and integrity of her character and the tragedy of her loss. I was SO NERVOUSE in the theater when Shang's sister wears white in the final battle because I didn't want her to die!! She survives the battle and goes on the bigger (and better?) things, so what does white mean for her? I have several fan-theories, but no evidence to support any of them. Also, Wenwu wears white at times throughout the film, is he a blank slate or dead inside?

[@AnonymousOnimous]

@@AnInsideJoke Oh! Maybe this is related, but I noticed some of the characters in anime being coded along similar lines - the more emotional characters wearing orange and the more detached characters wearing blue. Many of the orange-dressed characters were mains (Naruto, Ichigo, Mugen) while the blue-dressed characters were best-friend antagonists (Sauske, Uryu, Jin).

[@merle309]

I like how Jonathan always says "we" when he explains why people act/feel a certain way. "We do...", "We tend to feel...", ... Hearing a therapist including himself in the group of people who can have mental issues, feels good. At least I don't feel stupid anymore

[@swatisaini6447]

💯 he often mentions about his personal struggle in his marriage, parenting etc. it's a great reminder that therapists are human too

[@HouseMDaddict]

It's a pretty typical inclusion of good therapists. The collective "we" gets across to clients better than the "you" a lot of the time. If I'm talking to clients, I'll use the "we" to mean we as humans not referencing myself specifically. Therapists aren't really supposed to come off as your friend and they can't be your friend, but they'll genuinely care about and support you as you work through your own issues. And yes, therapists are human. Most therapists don't share too much of their personal life with clients because ultimate it's about the client and their issues and that's where the focus should be, not on the therapist.

[@Darkstormsun9865]

because everyone feels the same emotions whether at different spots or circumstances, the emotion itself is still the same.

[@SokunRia]

my therapist also does this and it helps me so much ngl

[@KalCounty]

I can't tell you the number of times I completely identify with a client's problem in a session. When a therapist says "we", they really mean it.

[@Yixuanpeng]

Alan's Chinese at the very end, translates to "I can a little Chinese speak", was the cherry on top of this great analysis of Wenwu

[@alvarostockle]

These guys! First spanish, now a little chinese!

[@yuweizhang209]

He's trying to be a chinese yoda lol

[@QUARTERMASTEREMI6]

Thanks so much for the translation! ☺️

[@sydposting]

It's a subtle detail, but Wenwu asking Katy for her "real name" is a confusing and painful (and brilliant) twist on what so many AAPI folks with "Western" names face when meeting strangers. He doesn't want to engage with the "American" parts of her because that's ultimately not something he can relate to, or find "relevant" -- and this, in turn, mirrors his disregard for the lives his children have made for themselves in his absence, only showing interest in the parts of them that fit into his personal narrative. Disclaimer, I am not AAPI, but have a degree in East Asian Studies and can read/understand Chinese and Japanese, though I'm out of practice speaking either. The sheer amount of linguistically correct and naturally-spoken Mandarin in Shang-Chi made me SO happy, especially the scene where Shaun is trying to teach Katy how to pronounce Qi. 😊 Lots of my classmates in college were American-Born Chinese who could understand spoken Mandarin or Cantonese but couldn't write or speak it for the life of them, so they were taking classes to actually learn how to use it. It was a very realistic conversation based on my experiences!

[@fortcolors9887]

question: were you disappointed by the lack of translation of "IVE LIVED MORE DECADES THAN YOU'VE EATEN MEALS"?

[@Kamikazu08]

@@fortcolors9887 AAPI here, and I was disappointed but I saw it as a good effort on the part of the translators. The limits of translations I guess. There are some idioms, phrases and concepts that just get lost in translation because embedded in those very words and phrases are history, culture and context woven in so subtly that you won't always be able to find an adjacent concept or word that can fully convey that meaning.

[@Chaffee738]

I don't live in America but I noticed that too, Katy is an American who clearly doesn't associate with the Chinese culture much and can even be uncomfortable with other (both American and Chinese, in different ways) people who expect her to just because her heritage is Chinese. You can almost see her a lot more uncomfortable than she already was in the presence of a warlord. It's such fantastic detail.

[@angeliquewu8318]

I mean. It’s quite interesting, but honestly, “Why do Chinese hate Chinese American Movies” by Easy Mandarin with Li Can is what captured my opinion as a Chinese the most accurately.

[@angeliquewu8318]

Uh It’s not really Naturally spoken. At ALL. The sheer amount of 别扭 in the way they spoke, the only accurate thing was the tones, other than that, the dialogue sounded so stiff omg. I mean, have you even checked out the Chinese evaluations on this piece of work? You should be able to, since you are “fluent in Chinese”. If you did, you’d know how we Chinese actually feel about this movie, and it isn’t positive.

[@pyra4eva]

Wenwu is so tragic but so very real. The whole family dynamic and even the dynamic shift after the mom (who is clearly the pillar of the family) dies. They all love each other but they all got baggage. Shang-chi realized that when his auntie had to remind him that the only way to be whole is to accept that he has two parents and both the good and the bad of them are inside him but it's up to him how he deals with that. Shang-chi had this belief that he was nothing like his dad until his auntie opened his eyes that, yes, actually he is. That insight definitely helps him to understand why his dad is the way he is and in a way how to hit him emotionally. Wenwu was holding onto any piece of his wife and I think that is part of why he didn't teach his daughter how to fight but he masked it with "oh girls shouldn't fight" which we all know he doesn't actually believe to be true. Then when he's fighting Shang-chi and they have a fight that reminds him of his wife, that reminds him that she lives on in them and could live on him as well but unfortunately, he doesn't get the chance to fully go down that path. There are so many layers to the characters in this movie and it's great. I really liked the insight brought to the table because I've tried to explain much the same to people about why he's not just a cookie cutter villain or a "bad dad". It's really strange to me how people will defend Thanos (who is so evil and abusive) but seemingly won't give Wenwu a second thought.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

For your last point, people suck

[@thesmilingknight4982]

I like him I like thanos more not cus of his ideals (well yes but not only) but for his power and how big he was built up, but yeah this guy way better otherwise a just as great villain sadly not as grand in scale as him, but yeah still really great but on another level and other way

[@buzzfiend]

Thanos? Abusive? Whaaaaat?

[@cucuhangtuah1]

@@buzzfiend gamora and nebula

[@mageeaaron2624]

Exactly!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!!! 🙏🏽💪👏

[@fortcolors9887]

The most disappointing part of the movie to me is the fact that they didn't do a literal translation of Wenwu roasting the elder about age: the Chinese was "I've lived more decades than you've eaten meals." and that's a much more powerful and absolutely hilarious burn than the caption they put up.

[@johnelmartagbago3764]

The official translation which is "I've eaten more salt than you've eaten rice" is better in my opinion. It's a very Oriental thing to say, giving authenticity to the whole thing. The literal interpretation can easily be learnt through context.

[@khoichau8316]

@@johnelmartagbago3764 Don't use Oriental when referring to people.

[@johnelmartagbago3764]

@@khoichau8316 B R U H. I didn't use the word Oriental to describe the people/person. I used it to describe the Act. Also, there's nothing wrong with using Oriental as a description for people 😑. Oriental isn't a derogatory term 😒

[@brxzbze]

@@johnelmartagbago3764 Eh, as a Chinese person I don't mind too much but I think 'Eastern/Asian' might be less controversial just because the term has a lot of baggage and is mostly used to describe businesses and shops now.

[@johnelmartagbago3764]

@@brxzbze well, as an Asian myself, i dont really see a problem with using either "Oriental" or "Eastern Asian"... I just used Oriental because it's shorter to type. Oriental in reality has a beautiful meaning, "of or relating to pearls" and the term is traditionally used to refer to culture, tradition, practice, etc. that is why this term is appropriate.

[@ThePonderer]

Wenwu has a very similar problem to Gendo Ikari from Evangelion- he believes that he was only capable of being a decent father and human being with the influence of his wife, and he becomes cold toward his children partially out of resentment, but MOSTLY because he thinks that they deserve better than he can provide. He resigns himself to being a failure as a father before he even really makes the attempt.

[@Karlos1234ify]

Very true. Gendo was a very complicated man with layers

[@gpanthony]

Still waiting on Cinema Therapy to tackle Evangelion. But yes, I think you're on point in your analysis!

[@andykazoo]

I would love a cinema therapy breakdown of Evangelion. There's a lot of genius to unpack though.

[@Crimson28]

Sounds a lot like John Dutton as well

[@timmynoir]

Here to add my support for a Cinema Therapy series on the Evangelion. I know it'd be a monumental effort but damn would it be fascinating.

[@TheAwesomeDarkNinja]

I don't cry at movies that much but Wenwu actually got me. The look on his face when his life is taken away - a mix of despair in realizing his wife was never coming back, and acceptance that he failed his children.

[@gpcheng87]

An interesting distinction too is at 14:27, Wenwu actually says, "Are you willing to help your father?", not simply "Will you help me?" as the translation says.

[@Duiker36]

There's a lot of interesting stuff to unpack in the nuances of the translation overall. I hope someone does that kind of analysis in the future.

[@amandastevens1117]

Yeah I noticed that on my second watch through (I've studied some mandarin so I've been trying to see how much I can understand). I know some parents speak in the third person to their young kids and I guess he could be doing that just as a way of coming down to his son's level. I was also thinking, if wenwu uses first person "will you help ME?", shangchi might be more reluctant having just watched him pummel a group of people (he's probably a bit traumatized tbh), but with "your father", shangchi might draw on images of the happier, kinder version of the man who is asking for his help and be more willing to help "his father".

[@brxzbze]

Also, he says 'Dad' eg. the informal version of Father. It's a common thing with Chinese parents I think -- my parents certainly did it too at some point.

[@LiveFreeOrDieDH]

It ties deeply into the Chinese culture of filial piety and Confucian duty to family. He's not asking his son to make a choice one individual to another. He's asking if his son will do the most important thing that his culture demands - obey his father.

[@elin111]

One of my favorite details about Wenwu is that he's almost always keeping his fists clenched, only opening them when he's ready to die.

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Oh… that’s such a deep detail.

[@malcolmhodnett8874]

Finally released the years of pent up tension and accepted what really is

[@lorigoshert6667]

Tony Leung is so dreamy and charming that it's hard to really dislike Wenwu as a villain.

[@reikun86]

Excellent choice to cast Tony Leung. He knocked it out of the park. I couldn't hate him either.

[@Xia-hu]

tony leung is amazing, also, how can a guy look this great at his age? wow

[@lorigoshert6667]

@@Xia-hu I know, right?!

[@helenl3193]

But IRL villains/abusers, etc are often the same - charming, personable, etc. You've got to get people on your side before you can start forcing them under your thumb.

[@lorigoshert6667]

@@helenl3193 Yes. That's what makes Tony Leung's portrayal of Wenwu so great. And terrifying. It's scarier when the villain is charming and "likeable."

[@edpotter1170]

Also subtle detail, Wenwu's lingering look at Xialing at the dining table after he said "I'm not lost anymore". He smiled, and Xialing looked stiff. Xialing said that after Yingli's death, Wenwu has never looked at her again, because she resembles Yingli too much. That scene at the dining table was the first time he'd looked at her in years.

[@Zzoolay]

Tony Leung, even when he is supposed to be evil, has such a sad an melancholic gaze its hard to despise him as a villan, i love him so much, ugh.

[@chubbyanimalenthusiast70]

I really hope they do gamora and nebula who show a sibling rivalry made worse by bad parents

[@ma.2089]

It’s more so the golden child and scapegoat dynamic. The rivalry only existed cuz their “dad” pitted them against each other

[@ma.2089]

It’s more so the golden child and scapegoat dynamic. The rivalry only existed cuz their “dad” pitted them against each other

[@trishapellis]

@@chubbyanimalenthusiast70 No, I agree with M.A. If what Gamora and Nebula had was ever a sibling rivalry, then we are never shown that (we don't get to see what they thought of each other when they met). For starters, they aren't even siblings. They have no innate reason to want to win the favor of this 'parental figure' and no reason to consider each other rivals - that is, until Thanos starts literally forcing them to fight and ripping the loser's limbs out, at which point the fear of that punishment became the driving force behind Gamora's interactions with Nebula. And GOTG2 shows clearly that really what Nebula cared about was never Thanos, it was Gamora. She kept on intentionally losing the fights because she wanted a sister. This is not a sibling rivalry "made worse" by bad parents. It's a golden child/scapegoat dynamic from Thanos's point of view (one is good and one is bad) caused purely and solely by a person who is NOT their parent pitting them against each other, where one child happened to be emotionally savvy enough to sense that she was never going to get the love she needed from Thanos so she turned to her fellow prisoner, and the other child was just not that quick on the uptake, so finally Nebula ended up resenting Gamora.

[@chubbyanimalenthusiast70]

@@trishapellis well if they do a video on it we will find out who is right

[@janedoex1398]

@@ma.2089 ⁰

[@amberjones1542]

Can we get one for Everything Everywhere All at Once? There are soooo many different elements to break down in that movie. And multiple chances for Alan to cry.

[@lucisventusnoctis]

Seconded The ending of everything everywhere all at once made me cycle through crying laughing and then crylaughing, haha I'd love to see an analysis, there were so many moments where the movie could have been full of tropes but it was done so thoughtfully that it took me a while to recuperate after watching

[@reikun86]

I loved that even though the premise was crazy and creative, the heart of the story is what drives it home.

[@jonathanc3555]

Honestly, yeah this would be amazing

[@kaptainriflebeard5980]

That movie had me confused, pumped and feeling all the same time. It's so wacky, weird and great in my opinion. Would love to see you guys react to it too

[@jaceperrodin4514]

This x 100000000000

[@adarcus4053]

I wish you had included talking about his daughter. She had a really good back story and logic based on his neglect of her. When I did Martial arts training and teaching in children classes I would make sure to focus on the girls. Not because I was one not because my teachers were bad but because I knew that they would feel like they didn't belong that they were not wanted. I had intrinsic motivation to train from the word go but many do not have that so I needed them to feel like they should exist in equal measure. They were my inspiration and I took my role seriously.

[@CaptainPikeachu]

Tony Leung is one of the greatest actors of his generation and he really brought so much heart and nuance and complexity to this character, which is so needed.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

It's almost as if getting a good script, along with good actors and a good director, can make for a good movie in the superhero genre. (Looking at you Thor: The Dark World.)

[@Darkstormsun9865]

@@Corbomite_Meatballs eh script was really basic, the movie was very saved by Tony Leung, although the action scenes are well made, it was also very generic.

[@slkshewolf]

I loved everything about the movie Shang-Chi. It was beautifully shot, beautiful music, beautiful visual effects, the actors acted the shit out of it, and I'm proud of Simu for being a fellow Canadian!

[@LilianaKali]

Represent!

[@reikun86]

I really appreciated the choreography in this movie. It was refreshing to see some well thought out fighting instead of the usual super-hero fight scenes.

[@tiffanypersaud3518]

Same. Represent.

[@bennyren980]

20:11 One thing I haven’t heard people talk about is that the line, “You’ve spent your entire life afraid” is also reflective of just how the children of Asian parents feel throughout their entire lives. Asian cultures very heavily emphasize family and community, different from western cultures where individuality is prioritized more (this is also mentioned in other films such as Crazy Rich Asians). Growing up as an Asian American, I’ve heard my family constantly say things like, “Get a good job and then you can help support your parents” or “You have to repay what your parents went through for you to get here.” This in turn leads to pressure and stress, the fear of disappointment and its consequences (As depicted in the mother and grandmother in Turning Red). You’re also afraid to do things that your family would disapprove of, therefore you hide it, living in the fear of the day they discover it. You think to yourself, “Nothing I do will be accepted by my family.” (As depicted in Michael in Crazy Rich Asians) In the case of Shang-Chi, he watched as his mother was killed. He watched as his father killed her killers in front of him. As a child, what can you do about that other than living in fear? He joins his father and trains to be a killer himself. Does he genuinely want that or does he just not want to disappoint his father? Later in life he ran, also living in the fear of his father finding him. And then to present time, when his father does end up finding him, he’s afraid.

[@lockhartrise9638]

👏

[@SJ-um8zc]

I always felt like the film touched on alot of the sensitive topics that Asian diaspora experiences when growing up... both in Sean and Katy. It was a good movie.

[@Yuunarichu]

This is why I get frustrated and sometimes laugh at those like, Webtoon comments and stuff where people be like, "Drop them ASAP" because they never read with the perspective of an Asian mindset. Like, I can't imagine dropping my parents??? I laugh because it's true for westerners but not really. "Why does it matter what your family thinks?" Image is also everything, to be able to show you have good rapport and not be a loner is also a huge thing.

[@lrvdo]

You are so right. We Asians live in constant need of approvals of parents. People would rather kill themselves than disappointing the parents. They are constantly brainwashed with the ideas like "parents know the best. Parents are always right". So many lives have been ruined because their parents didn't 'approve' of their romantic choice. In centain parts of india, people even get killed by family because they wanted to get married to partner of their choice (honour killing)

[@Julia-lk8jn]

I even noticed that under-current of "you *owe* your family" in Asian and Asian-American families and stories: "Your life is not your own until you have children." (East Wind: West Wind). I guess it makes sense; in a feudal society, your family is what keeps you alive, and structures like that last for a long time. (Look at the number of children born to single mothers: for African American children it's almost double the rate than the national average. Now consider the conditions for African American families two hundred years ago.) But surely there is be a healthier way to deal with obligation? I know I'm always happy to be able to help my mother with tasks that are burdensome to her, but I don't think I've ever heard something like "you have to repay" from her. It's just that at a certain age you realize how much your parents did for you, and that there should be a balance.

[@enoraskye6020]

I love the part "the best time to change is right now". I sometimes get strange looks from people who, at the end of the year, ask me what my New Years resolutions are. I tell them that I don't make New Years resolutions. If you recognize something in your life that you feel should change, don't wait until New Years. Change it right now.

[@FiresCollide]

There's a part of me that always wonders if Wenwu never truly wanted to be this warlord. But considering his immortality and the ruthless time into which he was born, he felt he had no choice and then grew to hate himself for it.

[@PhotonBeast]

It's possible, sure. Certainly over the centuries, he would have experienced losses, some probably very deep and profound, and that can produce a strong desire to avoid it, control it, and/or protect against it. Which can create an unfortunate loop where, as he accumulates power and followers to protect himself and 'his', it creates more to lose - instead of one castle, he has two needing protection; instead of one trusted lieutenant, he has two.

[@Raaslen]

Yeah, and over the centuries he continued doing it because it was what he know how to do and he felt he was good at

[@wynchiella]

that’s the same interpretation i’ve heard recently from a few people on qin shi huang (the first emperor of china) because he was born during the warring states period and had to be very tough from childhood as a political prisoner where his mom was from and foreigner to where his dad was from. tbh thinking about it wenwu and qin shi huang feel veeerryyyy… similar? even despite qin shi huang interestingly being a “bachelor”.

[@GeoGyf]

It was a nice spin, but in the end it also falls flat. You have to accept a lot of disbelief why the 10 Rings dont even became a myth, why his empire failed, why he didnt control the whole world and so on. In fact the movie pretty much chose the easy solution and skipped 99% of it. I get what they are going for, but they established a narrative with so many implications and ultimately they glossed over it, which is a shame because it was the most interesting part. In general though i agree with you, Wenwu's empire(s) failed whether because he was only thinking of the fight. Certainly makes sense why he would ambandon the empire he built and instead making a ninja/assassin/monastic warrior cult.

[@aeh5109]

What I love the most about this movie is that is revealed that Shang-chi DID get his revenge and killed the guy. So he's not a "hero" but he learns from it and actually tries to change.

[@afroturtle989]

His line when he says “ Yes you are,” is fucking cold. That line gave me goosebumps. Fucking scary

[@KimCarter]

Yes!

[@melthenewqueen]

I've noticed an overarching theme in the MCU post-Endgame, grief. Now, this may just be me but I have noticed that a lot of the stories in these new movies and shows, excluding Ms. Marvel and MoonKnight because I haven't seen them, is grief in the aftermath of Endgame. Now some shows and movies are obviously about it (WandaVision, Shang-Chi) but others deal with it subtly.

[@ma.2089]

I can confirm that Moon Knight also deals with SEVERE grief. MK is very much a story abt coming to terms with trauma.

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

Well, if you look at it, the MCU had the "snappening", and for 5 years 50% of people were gone, and then came back one day, randomly. Some people would never get over their grief in that time to suddenly find the person(s) you were missing were back, but like they were 5 years ago, even though you were 5 years removed. It's a wonder that 50% of the people on Earth in the MCU aren't experiencing severe mental health issues, on either side of the event. (It's also somewhat telling of our post-pandemic(?) world, since most of the media we're getting now was written or shot during it. Are we going to have "grief" stories for the next 5-10 years in entertainment? Would that then drive people to not really take the pandemic, and grief/grieving seriously?)

[@SinHurr]

@@Corbomite_Meatballs The trauma of loss combined with the trauma of the people left behind and the people returned in their own personal "you can never go back home" hells.

[@Julia-lk8jn]

@@Corbomite_Meatballs I wouldn't exactly bet on being in a post-pandemic world. Covid19 is certainly turning into an endemic disease, but it can still has some nasty surprises up its sleeves. I'm with the observation about the connection between a pandemic and (dealing with) loss being a recurring theme, however: (1) why would a realistic, respectful depiction of grief make us take it less serious? I would expect the opposite, especially when that depiction finally moves away from "real men are just silent and stoic and self-medicate with some booze and violence if needed", thank goodness for that. (2) I think a connected issue is mental health. It sure as hell is very noticeable in Moon Knight and WandaVision, Loki could just as well have "Villain Therapy" as a working title ... and goodness bloody knows, mental health is a serious issue right now, and not just because the latest conspiracy theory bred attack.

[@Julia-lk8jn]

That's a great observation, I'm a bit shocked I didn't notice it myself. I mean, it starts with Endgame, obviously, and I still love that they took somebody like Thor / Chris Hemsworth to show how crippling and lasting grief can be, even to somebody who up to then seemed to be the most up-beat, balanced and invincible character in the MCU. And yes, Moon Knight? Grief and mental health all over the place, and bloody heck, it's such a brilliant depiction. Definitely very much worth watching.

[@mazyreads3698]

Truly one of the most interesting villains in the MCU! I love how Marvel is starting to flesh out their villains more. Haven’t finished the video at this point, but super excited to watch!

[@euphoricalfunk]

Wenwu is one of my favourite MCU villains, right up there with Killmonger and I’m so glad you guys did an episode on him!

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Killmonger is the GOAT. Episode on him coming later this year!

[@benmunn7593]

Mine are Thanos and Green Goblin

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@CinemaTherapyShow would you do an episode on Green Goblin?

[@Spicy-Raven]

I always felt like Wenwu blaming Shang-Chi for not saving his mom was also particularly due to guilt on his end. Wenwu blamed Shang-Chi but he also probably blamed himself because if he never dropped the ten rings then maybe Shang-Chi would have been trained earlier and could have fought and saved is mom at that age

[@helenl3193]

I saw it more as projection and preemptive strike - he blames himself (rightly, because his past sins were what put the family in danger *and* he wasn't there to protect her) and assumes his kids blame him too, so pushes that right back at them. It's not my fault I wasn't there, it's your fault because you were! Attack before you can be attacked. Probably all on a subconscious level

[@Julia-lk8jn]

If Wenwu at any point believes that his what, 8 year old son could have saved his mother, then he's really off the deep end. No, that's grade A projection of his own feelings of guilt.

[@DarkMasterofCupcakes]

"Love Redeems" is a trope that always needs to be done carefully, if you want it to be seen as a positive development for the character. You don't want it to com across as "I'm doing good things and acting like I'm a better person so this person will return my feelings" instead of making it clear that it's more about the other person helping to inspire the character to actually be a better person and just want to improve themselves. You need the change to feel genuine, and if you have to ask if they'd just revert back to being horrible if the person they changed for was gone, or if they didn't return their affection, can you really believe they changed?

[@samf.s8786]

The execution of the trope was perfect here imo.

[@williamfinch9858]

I believe that I'm only able to be a decent human being with the love of Jesus Christ.

[@alaina4070]

@@williamfinch9858 I mean this with the most sincerity and do not mean any harm or ill-intentions for I am worried for you. I am not claiming your belief is false and it's wrong for you to believe such but you do need your own identity outside of Christ. All Christians have stumble in their faith. If you only cling to Christ and he is lost to you. You'll stumble and fall even harder.

[@williamfinch9858]

@@alaina4070 I don't think Christ can ever be lost to me. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[@alaina4070]

@@williamfinch9858 John the Baptist stumbled with his faith. It's nkt due to lack of faith but human nature. God said there will be trials and tribulations. You should put your faith in God and Christ during such troubling but if they're the only reason why you don't commit sin or do wrong than you're not growing and changing in Christ. Wenwu reverted to his former self when he lost his wife. Your previous comment made me see a bit of him in you.

[@TheRestlessView]

The thing I love about this villain is that the filmmakers went out of their way to really make you sympathize with him. During the film you can see that he is pain and has so much grief in him. He can hear her voice calling out to him for help.

[@jinxgirl5]

"If they didn't change for themselves, what makes you think they'll change for you." I liked that. It hit really deep, and makes you stop and really think. People are such an interesting mix of subtle and straightforward.

[@justopher8487]

The “Yes you are” from Wen-Wu cemented him as my favorite MCU villain

[@tobiaslawrence8928]

Wen wu is a very good villain because his motives are simple not world domination or greed just simple he just wants his wife and family back.

[@arcturionblade1077]

And when he loses her, Wen Wu slides back to his old ways which included world domination (from the shadows).

[@PrettyGuardian]

Look at what Wanda went through to get hers back.

[@Darkstormsun9865]

@@PrettyGuardian well she was meant to be hero gone crazy, which was why they made her that way.

[@wrenegade6283]

@@PrettyGuardian wenwu's children are real and alive, Wanda's technically aren't and pretty much nonexistent, not a fair comparison

[@cchang93cc]

Tony Leung is amazing and a badass. It was hard to hate him as a villain and he was so good at emotional acting - all the emotions he easily portrayed on his face. And his voice - icing on the cake.

[@katemiller4084]

Have you ever thought about doing Super-Sibling Therapy or Sibling Cinema Therapy? There are a few siblings in movies that I could suggest.

[@reikun86]

I was thinking of Violet, Dash, and Jack Jack from The Incredibles.

[@canned_can_chan4590]

Someone else suggested gamora and nebula

[@matityaloran9157]

Would Zuko and Azula count for that?

[@braveheartalice]

They recently did one of the March sisters in Little Women. Definitely in the realm of possibility for them to do more

[@Valdagast]

25:00 Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate... leads to suffering. Once down the dark path you go, forever will it dominate your destiny. Also, it's deeply symbolic that his wife is the only one who calls him by his right name. She's the only one he lets see the man behind the rings.

[@Doctor_Sirus]

19:57 I'm surprised you guys skipped over what happened immidiately before that. Even though there is a skirmish happening all around them, he takes the time to pray at a shrine to his wife. Such a touching moment.

[@madrazz8888]

Speaking of mourning, I once heard someone say that sometimes we have to mourn the loss of our own childhood. I guess that's where the depressive nostalgia comes from. I can't be the only one who feels this, right?

[@PhotonBeast]

No, you are not.

[@Laura-pk2fd]

You mean as they grow up or?

[@PhotonBeast]

@@Laura-pk2fd Both; it can be as one grows up and/or later in life.

[@jonathanschaffer2594]

Sometimes I mourn the fact that I never really had much of a childhood, since I didn’t grow up in a great home. So I get the depressive nostalgia thing

[@Simplenotion]

some psychologists argue that we mourn every phase of our life, sooner or later, if it was good or not. They basically say phases like teenage angst or midlife crisis are all completely normal phases of depression...they do have a lot to do with mourning childhood/youth/young adulthood and coming to terms with what the future may hold.

[@alienisabel767]

Shang-Chi is a movie that you fall in love with the more you watch it. I’m so happy you guys pointed out everything that I’ve been trying to explain about Wenwu since it’s release. He does bad things but it just shows that everyone is human and therefore able to grow and change.

[@TehvtremOST]

I feel like the movie wasn't really about Shang-Chi the character, but was really more about his parents. When I left the theater, I couldn't think of a single characterizing moment for Shang, but I could think of a ton for Wenwu. This video helps to clear up some of my hypothesized reasons for that. Thanks making for the video! Edit: I feel like I'm obligated to mention this because I'm the "music person", but Wenwu's OST, "Your Father" also suits this idea of changing for someone and then that change being undone by their lack of presence. His theme starts off calm and peaceful before changing into a darker tone and then settling into a tone of desperation before going back to the original calm pace that the theme started off in, bringing the story full circle and being a perfect representation of Wenwu's arc in . In addition, each part of the theme only plays during the corresponding part of Wenwu's arc.

[@corneliahanimann2173]

And Katy. I can remember almost all scenes with Katy, from her killing the souleater, how she drives a car and how she was stubborn, I remember her.

[@ma.2089]

I’d disagree, just cuz I actually like his development in the movie, but I feel like it’s easy to overshadow the character so I’m not surprised ppl don’t remember. That and there aren’t as many super defining scenes, since he shares them with other characters which monopolize the attention

[@corneliahanimann2173]

@@ma.2089 I don't dislike Shang, but I also realised that by the end of the movie, it's difficult to explain who he is. We all have an idea of who all the other marvel heroes are, but not with Shang. I don't think that's entirely a bad thing, it's his first movie and they gave him so much background story, that there is a lot of space to flesh out his character after this part.

[@ma.2089]

@@corneliahanimann2173 yeah I agree. I think part of his journey in future appearances will be figuring himself out. He only just accepted the fact he had two parents, and he never got to really mourn the loss of either of them. He also just reconciled with his only remaining family. That and there’s the conflict of Chinese versus American values and him learning to take responsibility. He’s starting to mature and figure himself out. In a way, it’s like the Spider-Man trilogy where Peter was still a kid. Shang feels like a young adult figuring himself out.

[@nebullae]

@@ma.2089 there's also the conflict between being the legacy of his mom or his dad, which complicates things because they represent such opposing ideals that shang-chi ends up feeling somewhat ambiguous until the end, where he realizes he can takes aspects from both sides for himself.

[@sanfordgray5699]

Wenwu is very much like Rās Al Ghul in Batman Begins, especially during his speech about wishing the one one loves had never existed so you would be spared your pain.

[@EclecticFruit]

Yet I find I identify with Wenwu more than Ras. I guess Ras's emotional journey was just too opaque by comparison for me.

[@ashdean3474]

Just wanted to put this out there: When Alan says what the subtitles call "whooshya," (5:02) he's actually referring to wuxia, which is a genre of Chinese fiction focused on martial artists. Cinema Therapy peeps, is there a way to change the subtitles there to reflect that?

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Hi Ash Dean, thank you for catching that! I made the correction in the subtitles, my apologies for the error. - Anna

[@ashdean3474]

@@CinemaTherapyShow Hey, I appreciate it!

[@angeliquewu8318]

Was surprised as a Chinese that Alan even knew about wuxia as a genre.

[@peterkhew7414]

I'm surprised a non-Chinese got the hanyu pinyin for 武侠 correct.

[@brxzbze]

@@peterkhew7414 I think wu xia's a pretty well known term to people who like action movies. it always bugs me a bit when people pronounce the 'xia' weirdly though

[@jovinlai3717]

I love the last frame of WenWu's dying scene looking down on Shang - it's a mirror image of how he was looking down lovingly at his newborn son in his arms :'(

[@Elizabeth-xp2sf]

I love that the first fight he has with his wife is like a dance and you can see that there is an attraction there but also later the fight with his son is almost beat for beat that fight but the tone of the fight completely changed.

[@vishnusanjay3]

I like how Alan just stops whatever he is talking about and listens to John's explanations like an obedient student to his teacher. They have such good chemistry as friends!

[@embee7434]

Alan, you can't tease a book like that and not write it. The little tag line was the best. Also, fabulous video for clearly one of the best Marvel movies they've made yet.

[@thesatanicbuddhist]

It's never too late. My mom was a narcissist and I thought she would never change. She surprised my sister and I by finally holding herself accountable and doing better. Having her give a heartfelt apology and showing she meant it was life changing for me.

[@George_M_]

Wenwu was good because unlike most MCU villains you actually believe he has the capacity to change. Even Loki didn't really have that (till the show). You feel bad when the nominal bad guy dies.

[@ericreacts2]

I wish so much that we had a Wenwu and the Ten Rings movie before this one. There's so much to unpack there!

[@Xia-hu]

we totally need that!

[@ninjagirl226]

I wish they hadn’t killed him in this one and we had one more movie with him. He was the best part of Shang Chi and I feel like they blew the wad by killing him.

[@plandsandtravels]

Prequels are a thing

[@Alycornz]

The discussion at 9:50 really hit me hard. My ex wanted to change himself for me, changed for me and because of me, because of how I was such a positive, kind, loving person and how he wanted to be better and be a happier person. I in turn supported them emotionally, financially at times, mentally, and we did change each other to be better versions of ourselves. However, the first time he broke up with me, he couldn't stand to lose me as a friend. It hurt so much, but I loved him so much as a friend and as a person, I wanted to be by his side and continue supporting his dreams and him. We reconnected and got back together, but not even a few months in he cheated on me. That loss of trust, the hurt, I knew I couldn't even be his friend without feeling pain and anger, and how can anyone be friends with someone they can't trust? He pleaded with me to stay his friend, but I really couldn't. Hearing John say "when that person leaves, their foundation is gone" made me wonder if my ex went back to his less-than-kind ways. It took over a year for me to realize I shouldn't have to "fix" a person, and it's explained so well in this video that if someone truly wants to change and be better, they WILL.

[@thespartanfox]

"There's a lot of Luke and Vader in this." I had the same thought a few times while watching this movie. Their whole dynamic feels like an alternate take on that conflict. It's so beautifully done and a big reason why this movie is one of my favorite recent Marvel films.

[@srialekhyananduri7036]

This is why Cinema Therapy is my favourite channel on KZbin. You guys just amazing addressing all these things about mental health, relations, accountability, acceptance and so much more from movies and tv shows and discussing it in such an engaging and thought provoking way. I hope more people find your channel

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Wow, thank you!

[@srialekhyananduri7036]

@@CinemaTherapyShow i am glad you read my comment.☺

[@yiqingtan4079]

Wenwu did blame himself. His grief, pain and anguish over her death hit me the hardest in this movie. He's trying so hard to "save her" because he couldn't save her that time. He fell prey to the whispers of the monster because he wanted so deeply to believe there was still a way he could reunite with her. Tbh, I felt more for him than for Shang-chi.

[@SunCrushr]

From both a filmmaking and emotional perspective, one of my favorite things about the ending of this movie is that when he defeats the Dweller-in-Darkness, he does it using moves from both the fighting styles of his mother and his father. This is especially shown in how he uses his mother's open handed flying stance in midair, and then his sudden shift to the closed fisted stance of his father as he kills the dragon. Such great filmmaking and attention to detail, and such truth about how who we are is so much shaped by who our parents were.

[@vVRukiadVv]

So I would actually argue that Wenwu thought his actions after his wife's death WERE honoring and respecting her, in his mind. Like you guys said, Wenwu wanted everything about her death to be everything but HIS fault, because he was disguising his guilt as anger and rage. He thought he was honoring her through revenge, and that showed how little he actually had accepted her influence after she was gone... By the way, thanks for doing Shang-Chi!! I absolutely love this movie, I personally think it's underrated in the MCU.

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Thanks for you insight, and thanks for watching!

[@returnoftheromans6726]

What is so scary about his relationship and character, is that Stalin acted the same way towards his daughter. He lavished gifts upon and loved her as a little girl, but then became suspicious of her and shut her away.

[@sarasamaletdin4574]

Hitler didn’t have a daugher. Did you accidentally write Hitler when you meant Stalin? Confused why you got so many upvotes as well.

[@returnoftheromans6726]

@@sarasamaletdin4574 My bad. It was actually Stalin. You are right. Hitler never had a daughter; he was married for about 35min before committing suicide with his wife.

[@m3rrys0ngstr3ss]

Finding out that he *blamed* Shang-chi for his beloved's death was when WenWu really pissed me off. I know lashing out at other family members is very easy after a loss, but that's what made me rage in particular.

[@Julia-lk8jn]

I agree with Alan: he _must_ have known that that was BS. A what, 8 year old child against trained killers? And it's not like his mother wasn't a good fighter to begin with, if she couldn't save herself, how would a pint-sized child like her son would have done it? That's just insane "you've got to be a big strong man no matter that every single fact says that you aren't" troll logic. So yes, that was just WenWu's grief speaking: I'm going to blame everyone and everything for my wife's death, no matter how absurd.

[@njmoonfrost6145]

I don’t think he actually blames him for what happened. He probably thinks they blame him for what happened so his attacking before they attack him. I hope that helps.

[@jessicamercer7738]

This is one of the best movies I’ve seen in a good few years. Incredible performances. Would love to see more videos about this film and characters!

[@edpotter1170]

My favorite part of the whole Wenwu - Shangchi relationship is how real it is to a lot of Asian father-son relationship. My friend does a research on Asian father-son relationship (he's in psychology major, I'm in language major) and the whole dynamic, this movie hits every mark. That 2 lines "I'm not afraid of you", "yes you are" are so real in summing up everything. Every Asian man's fear is his own father.

[@MrGBH]

If you love Tony Liung and are a fan of Jon Woo, definitely look up Red Cliff. It's a long movie, but so brilliant

[@Bubreherro]

Or Infernal Affairs (so much better than The Departed) or Lust, Caution, or Happy Together!

[@reikun86]

@@Bubreherro Thank you. I thought Infernal Affairs had a tighter story than The Departed.

[@melanie62954]

Or In the Mood for Love and Chungking Express!

[@Bubreherro]

@@reikun86 I totally agree! The added story lines and plot twists were so not needed and distracted from the real plot and the internal struggles that the movies focused on

[@p3442]

Y’all. What a FANTASTIC intro. I’m not even two minutes in and just had to comment on it. Probably because it resonated with me so much. So many times in my life I have thought “if only I could have That/this, it will make me happy”. Only to find out that wasn’t the case. Then you added on: “What happens when this/that goes away?” You’re in a bad spot if that was your foundation. Profound.

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Thank you so much!

[@MuricaTurkey]

Possibly my most favorite Marvel movie so far. Though Black Panther is still a close second. Really love when the villain has an understandable POV I can somewhat empathize with.

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Killmonger is a FANTASTIC villain! We'll probably be doing an episode on him later this year.

[@reikun86]

I'll take interesting villains any day over the what we got in Thor 2 (sorry I can't remember the villain's name)

[@EclecticFruit]

@@reikun86 who could ever forget the movie where the magic space thingamabob caused a generic chaotic evil guy to start a campaign of violence in peaceful lawful neutral territory? It's just so unique! Gosh, did you even watch the movie??? :P

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

@@reikun86 "Generic MCU Badguy #3""

[@reikun86]

@@Corbomite_Meatballs Ah, yes. Thank you. 😁

[@Firegen1]

Yayyyyyy Villain Therapy! My favourite of Cinema Therapy regular episodes. Wenwu was fascinating. What a performance! May even have topped Killmonger for me.

[@Code_Ax0]

Oooohh, have they done a Villain Therapy on Killmonger? I would love to watch that!!

[@captainshiloh831]

@@Code_Ax0 they responded to another comment earlier saying they’ll do a video on him later this year!!

[@AnInsideJoke]

@Toss C That would be a fantastic episode, but they would ABSOLUTELY need to bring in someone to help with it. The whole "long-lasting effects of living with systemic racism meets isolationism due to generational trauma" and similar issues are, honestly, outside of their wheelhouse for obvious reasons, so without involvement of people who's area of expertise this specifically is, it could be a disaster.

[@Code_Ax0]

@@AnInsideJoke Yeah they've brought in people before for things out of their wheelhouse and if they don't have a guest they simply just don't talk about those parts. I trust them, been subscribed for some time now so I know they'd do the right thing.

[@Code_Ax0]

@@captainshiloh831 Nice 😎👌

[@SilverLetomi]

Unrelated to the rest of the film but I do love that our main characters speak Chinese (are they speaking Mandarin or Cantonese?) frequently and naturally in-character. I think that this not only feels more natural for the characters but also helps normalize hearing other languages to US audiences and reading subtitles as well - and there are so many interesting foreign language films out there that US audiences aren't even aware of because we have, historically, ignored films that weren't catering to us but this normalization of other languages and subtitles is starting to open that door. I hope. :)

[@adrianhosendove9065]

Recently found this channel and I love it! It has really opened my eyes on certain characters and thank you for that! You both are helping me understand film and people more. Keep up the great work!

[@JonathanDecker]

You are so welcome!

[@severalracoons9315]

"All it takes in one bad day to drive the sanest man to lunacy" -Joker Wenwus one bad day was his wife being murdered. Drove him to attack his own children. Unleash chaos upon the world but if there's one thing I like about villains is this. A superhero will sacrifice you to save the world. But a villain will sacrifice the world to save you.

[@rmsgrey]

A superhero will find a way to save both you and the world (possibly sacrificing themself in the process).

[@tskmaster3837]

Never trust anyone who quotes the Killing Joke unironically, never mind incorrectly. Wen Wu's one bad day was when he gave up all his power for one woman... because you either die a villain or live long enough to become a hero, amirite? What, it's really "You either die a hero or you live long enough to become the villain"? But that just means you live your entire life being good... or you don't. That's it, it's meaningless. But when you focus on the bad side... well now, that has places it went, doesn't it? What I find most fascinating about the Shang-Chi move is that both of Wen Wu's children inherit their Father's legacy, one takes the alien artifact that is the Ten Rings, the other the criminal organization that is the Ten Rings. And then just stops. Dad was a villain, sis IS a villain... what are you going to do? Make damn sure not to miss a birthday card?

[@gooberdoober8416]

Those last two lines of several raccoons hit me hard

[@Julia-lk8jn]

Yikes, if that's supposed to be romantic ... I'd have to be a raging narcissist to want somebody to sacrifice a world, with hundreds of cultures and millions of pieces of art, literature and music, and billions of people for me. Thanks absolutely bloody no.

[@Julia-lk8jn]

@@gooberdoober8416 "Look sweetie, I just sacrificed billions of families and a world full of life and history and knowledge and art for your sake! That's much more romantic and impressive than what that stupid superhero would have done, right?" *No.* No it very much is not.

[@LittleHobbit13]

I like the distinction you make between "redemption" and "redeeming act". I think a lot of times characters get redeeming acts that people misinterpret as redemption, which is why people complain then about "redemptions" feeling unearned. Obligatory Leverage reference: "redemption is a process".

[@Miss_Dis]

I realized how much of a student I was when I was so upset by Shang-Chi getting that lady's laptop sliced in half, that hurt so bad

[@DragonFae16]

For any teachers who are fans of this channel, show these videos to your students! Each video has something in it that I feel every teen and even young kids could really benefit from hearing.

[@RhapsosProductions]

My partner gave me a great equivalent to the stumble/relapse idea years ago of 'slip-ups, not f-ups', and I have taken that to heart whenever I feel I'm going back to old ways. I think acknowledging that it is a constant process and occasional stumbles are expected as part of that is so much healthier than feeling like a failure and potentially fully relapsing

[@eyes_espresso4803]

This movie made my heart happy. I grew up in a house where martial arts are held very dear. My dad did karate his whole childhood, and when he got old enough moved on to tae kwon do and Ishinru karate, to the point that he became an instructor while I was a baby. And growing up, I trained with him (not to Cobra Kai levels like Sam and Daniel). And he showed me a lot of movies that influenced his want for martial arts in his life. Bruce Lee and Ip Man were regular watches in my house. And being able to go see this movie with him and my mom was something that made us all so happy.

[@amberbradshaw1461]

I actually cried when Wenwu died.😭 I think that is the first, and only time I ever cried for the villain.

[@randomperson2777]

Shang-Chi was such an underrated Marvel film - the character-driven fight sequences especially were brilliant

[@travis3571]

"I can a little Mandarin speak". Still better than whatever came out of the mouths of the actors in the movie Serenity

[@cabnbeeschurgr]

Space mandarin it's totally different bro

[@srivatsadamaraju1473]

Half of it is the music for me. That’s what every great film/ storytelling does, nailing the theme of the story through music, and then write the details of the film. Beauty

[@M3RDR]

"after all those years, I finally found something worth growing old for" that line hit me like a truck oh my god....

[@alwaysapirateroninace443]

This was excellent. I think Wenwu is also scarier because part of what makes him scary is he's a physically strong and domineering father, whose also good with words and manipulation, which is a scariness many people can relate to. Whether that person is a father, mother, brother, sister, or lover, being in a toxic relationship is always scary. But, the film also wonderfully shows that actually, people can change for the better. It's not easy and you can backslide, but you can change and become a better person.

[@lurategh]

From what I've heard this is Tony Leung's first ever role as a father. He always avoided these roles in the past bc of his own bad relationship with his dad.

[@skzoteight0325]

And in this, he is a "supervillain" dad... Idk how to process that.😅

[@angelaliao9167]

I would love a video on Everything Everywhere All At Once, its such a good film and has so many psychological layers to dive into

[@reikun86]

I didn't think I was going to cry while watching Everything Everywhere All At Once, but it got me. Anybody who watched The Joy Luck Club knows what I'm talking about.

[@alinagray4132]

I was in tears this whole vid. This is what my last 8 years were, and I always took the tragedies in my life as being entirely my fault, with no one else in my life. I don't know if it can be called backsliding, but I spend every moment of my life right now believing that my best isn't good enough, since it wasn't enough for me or the people I had. Now I exist unsure if I can even survive the next hour.

[@SisterPegasus]

Hang in there. You're doing great just by living, I believe in you

[@86fifty]

That is a POWERUFL phrase: "There is peace in doing what you know is right, but there's a RUSH in doing what you know is wrong." Damm, appreciation is not a powerful enough word to describe how much gratitude I have for Being Seen right there by John and Alan, for phrasing it that way - that you have to MOURN the rush from your old habits, because it WAS fun, or rewarding, or whatever. You're trying to leave it behind because it is not, in the long run, GOOD for you, not HEALTHY, sure... But it was FUN. And if you can't ever have that PARTICULAR kind of rush again? And instead you have to settle for "peace" and "doing what is right" and feeling bored and grumpy and deprived and so you have to MOURN the funner past... That is MUCH more helpful rhetoric in terms of addiction than I have EVER heard before. so THANK you both, SO much.

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

You're very welcome. That's an insight earned from hard life experience, I can tell you. - Jonathan

[@dawnshimmerglow2259]

It's heartbreaking to see how he dies at the end, I was rooting for a happier ending but at the same time.. Wow that was powerful. Marvel did really well this time and the cast? It was cool seeing some Asians (Chinese/Hong Kong specifically) and seeing a glimpse of their lifestyle and culture.

[@angeliquewu8318]

I mean. Shang Chi wasn’t that bad, but honestly, the video “Why do Chinese hate Chinese American Movies” by Easy Mandarin with Li Can is what captured my opinion as a Chinese the most accurately. The fact that people even call it an “Asian” movie annoys me immensely

[@dawnshimmerglow2259]

@@angeliquewu8318 I get what you mean, Chinese American movies are like a mix mash of Hollywood and actual Chinese movies. Chinese American movies would never be on the same level/cultural quality/authenticity/vibes and this can apply to any original country's films versus the americanized version. (Indian v. Indian American, Japanese v. Japanese American, British v. American made version of some British historical era, etc whatever else) An American screenwriter could never fully make a great movie that involves a different country's culture, and likewise if it were a differ country's filmwriters/screenwriter trying to portray America's culture. But honestly frankly, over here in America there's a lot of stupid and negative stereotypes of other countries and cultures. If a movie can help break some of that and introduce some pieces of culture to Asian Americans, then that is all I could ask for at this point. But yes, you bring up a wonderful point. Shang Chi was not bad and it definitely stood out in a Marvel universe full of white heroes, plus in my opinion I'd honestly say that it should have made more revenue. But if we compare Shang Chi to an authentic Chinese/Hong Kongese movie, of course Shang Chi would most likely lose.

[@angeliquewu8318]

@@dawnshimmerglow2259 I think the biggest issue, besides the uncanny valley bit, is that it neither portrays Chinese culture accurately on any meaningful level, nor does it actually achieve any real changing of attitudes towards youth in the US. There are still the same overused and shallow stereotypes of the Asian tiger parent, the same random mystical supposedly Eastern “magic” which in fact is contradictory to Chinese cultivation and values, along with honestly ordinary looking main characters, solidifying the stereotype of ugly Asian men. It’s honestly so hypocritical when people try to say that the main characters, especially the main MALE character, the only Asian superhero, is hot, when that means people think that the best, the hottest guy Asians can come up with is Liu Simu’s level of looks. The real result is that as a whole, Asian men were viewed as the least desirable of all ethnic groups in a public survey. Idk man, I just have a very strong psychological reaction to “Chinese” American movies for some reason. It’s probably uncanny valley. I am quite curious for why I have such a strong gut dislike of these movies.

[@dawnshimmerglow2259]

​@@angeliquewu8318 I mean, let's get this straight. I'm not from mainland China so my opinion is going to be a little different than yours. I do agree with you for the most part for portraying Chinese culture accurately on a meaningful level.. we can all agree country A will never fully be able to do that when making a movie about country B's culture/lifestyle/movie genre. Please do correct me and please don't hesitate to share yours views. But as a 19 year old mixed Asian American (half Chinese and half S. Korean) I see that it portrays a lot of struggles between a mainland Asian versus an America-born Asian. So rather than it being a movie comparable to authentic Chinese movies/Hong Kong movies (I think some of the cast were from Hong Kong??) and rather than it being a movie appealing to mainland Asians, it's a little more for Asian American audiences. Shang Chi represents the mainland Asian, while Katy represents an Asian American. You see this in family roles (laidback, less hierarchy-like structure in Katy's family as opposed to Shang Chi's family that shows less familial bonds and more of a solid respect towards the older member of the family Wenwu), you see this in language (Shang Chi and his sister Xialing retains their Chinese language, as opposed to Katy who couldn't speak any, or spoke poorly, in the movie), and you see it in cultural familiarity. There's also the theme of undying love/selfless love/love that transcends time and reincarnations. American movies never have such a wholesome and heartwarming character type or movie/tv series sort of theme and I appreciate how there's a bit of that between Wenwu and his wife Ying Li. So arguably yes the movie does not hold much Chinese culture portrayal on a meaningful level but there's still some that help make the movie feel more realistic (like it really is a movie being filmed in a setting of Chinese homes and having bits of Chinese culture) so I appreciate that attention to small background details, and it portrays some of the differences between a mainland Chinese and a Chinese American. I do agree that the Asian tiger parent trope is getting overused and I'd happily welcome movies where the parents and children have a healthy relationship. But in this case the movie wouldn't have its current plot without that. Same with the whole "magic" thing, yeah Asians and Chinese specifically don't have much of a "magic" concept in our culture. The closest thing is cultivation over many years that can give animals human forms or that can give spiritual beings some abilities but yah there's nothing equivalent to the West's perceptions of magic, demons, or witches. That definitely was a big no in my book, but hey I'd say Shang Chi was better than Disney's live action Mulan. There was less of the whole "magic and witch" concept in Shang Chi. But frankly, as someone that is most (physically) attracted to east Asian men, I do find Simu Liu and Tony Leung/Leung Chiu Wai attractive but I do see your point about stereotyping Asian men to look ugly. The cast isn't ugly, but definitely yeah there are other actors/actresses that better fit the conventional beauty standard. I'm sorry to hear about your dislike :// But honestly, supporting such movies now while offering critique in a kind way might be what it takes for better movies to come out in the future to star Asians, and to help break some of the negative stereotypes and negative drama about Asians. Especially now, in America there's a lot of anti-Asian hate crimes. If some movies can help break some of the stupid hate and dispel some violence against Asians, I'd happily take it. Disney and Marvel could do much better but for now.. it's workable. Just hoping for better movies in the future ^^

[@ivanlim3180]

@@angeliquewu8318 Yeap, found a Wumao troop who claims every Chinese in Hollywood as 'Chinese Shaming', aka 辱华. You guys have been targeting this movie for a long time, and even personally attack Simu Liu for his looks, utterly disgusting. As a Chinese, I am glad I was born in Malaysia instead of Mainland China so that I wouldn't get twisted appearance views like you all.

[@CuriousGreyHedgehog]

I think you guys have really hit this nail on the head. My husband was being raised in the shadow of a dad in prison and that he was kind of expected to live the same life. He wanted to do better but didn't know how. We met and I tend to collect strays so I see he wants better and pull him toward better. He falls hard (because I amazing, not really). In less than a year we are married. For so long everyone in his life would say Amber is so good for you, but we had to correct them and say I was a catalyst but he did the work. Now 17 years and 4 kids later he is still here and now we teach martial arts and try to influence other people to be their best. I didn't change him but in the beginning he started for me. Thanks guys, I love what you do

[@beardlessdragon]

29:48 "You can trust him! He cries on the Internet!" This killed me lol I have not seen this movie but this sure makes me want to watch it! Awesome video as always. I love your content so much

[@Luna-hd9fk]

I didn’t want to watch this video at first, wen wu is a lot like two people in my life, but in a father figure perspective, a man who was so consumed with his grief, he hurt me, he abused me, showed me pain I would’ve never known from anyone else, showing me death, without protecting me, showing me pain without protecting me, he was so confused by his own bitterness and anger that I had to be the one suffering. I hope, whoever is out there relating to this Even A Little, I’m here and I’m with you and you are Not alone, you’re here and I understand too. You’re valid and I’m proud, so so proud of you.

[@notemilyzhang]

Alan’s Chinese at the end made my day😂 this episode was incredible, please react to Moon Knight! I need Jon to break down the DID in the series and I need Alan to comment on how incredible the fight scenes were and how there wasn’t a word of Chinese in Moon Knight’s Mandarin speaking scene😊 I love you guys so much❤️❤️❤️

[@Hellbane224]

Here's something that people don't always grasp. He blames his son, he blames his enemies, he blames everyone but himself... all of that stems from her most of all. Who he's REALLY blaming is her. He's blaming her for leaving him.

[@pwolfamv]

The fight between Shang-Chi and Wenwu gives me goosebumps every time. It's such a powerful scene on many levels.

[@astaldogal]

So, I rewatch y'all's videos every now and again, and every time I do I hear something new or it hits me in a new way based on what's going on in my life at that time. And i just want to say thank you so much for everything y'all do. You've helped me more than you'll know and I really, really appreciate my internet dad's.

[@cc.kanna88]

Points for trying Mandarin! It's a hard language and I've been studying it for 10+ years! Just a few pointers (source: 10+ years of studying Mandarin, as well as experience translating between both Chinese and English). If native speakers want to correct me on something, feel free; I'm human and I make mistakes: - "I can speak a little bit of Chinese" is “我会说一点点中文“ (wǒ huì shuō yī diǎn diǎn zhōng wén). If you want to be specific and say Mandarin, you would say “我会说一点点普通话” (wǒ huì shuō yī diǎn diǎn pǔ tōng huà). 我可以一点点仲文说 (see the closed captioning) is not only too literal, but the 仲 is wrong, and you would use 会 (huì) instead of 可以 (kě yǐ). It should be 中. 仲 is a noun that's used to talk about the second month of a season, describe the second among brothers (仲兄 means 'the second eldest brother'), or it's a surname. Grammar-wise, I understood you and native speakers might understand you (I say might because it depends on who you talk to), but it wouldn't be correct. - You had the right characters for 'watch movies,' but the pronunciation was off. It's 'diàn' with a 'D,' not 'jiàn' with a 'J.' You want to enunciate the words a little more as well. Again, not trying to be super picky about the pronunciation! Just something to keep in mind (if you even read this). Wenwu and Killmonger were probably my two favorite villains from the MCU, but I just LOVED both Tony Leung and Michelle Yeoh's performances in this movie! Speaking of Michelle Yeoh, PLEASE tell me you're planning to look at Everything Everywhere All At Once at some point. This is probably my favorite Villain Therapy so far, and I can't wait to see more!

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Hi kanna, thank you for taking the time to point out the error in the closed captions. I made the correction as per your suggestion (我会说一点点中文). Your expertise is very appreciated! - Anna

[@cc.kanna88]

@@CinemaTherapyShow You're welcome! Happy to help!

[@abadaccident528]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. This movie gave me so much nostalgia. As an Asian, I grew up watching HK movies, so seeing my favourite actors and actresses on screen again, it gave me so much mini me joy. And hearing my native language being the language to really start off the story and hearing phrases that make so much cultural sense to me was so impactful. I never really got the importance of representation, but this one really hit home :"D

[@alexandrialeonora6542]

Just wanted to say, I appreciate your appreciation of HK action films, haha! My favorite actor out there is Nicholas Tse, who was Jackie Chan's sidekick in New Police Story. A fantastic actor and martial artist. (His movie Beast Stalker was amazing.) Another good HK movie is Gen-X Cops (I think produced by Jackie Chan, with a cameo by him, too). Man...this got super nostalgic remembering all the great HK films I enjoyed in high school and college! :D

[@alexandrialeonora6542]

P.S. I loved Shang-chi, but something about the movie also really unsettled me. Watching clips of it again now, in this video, I was reminded of that unsettled feeling. I wonder what that's stemming from?

[@eshbena]

@@alexandrialeonora6542 So, when I first started watching HK films, I noticed that the storytelling, camera angles, the fight choreo, etc. was really radically different from the way Western films are made. It's very true to Asian culture and can be jarring the first time you watch one, if you are unfamiliar with the culture. Once you get used to the different conventions, it becomes hugely enjoyable and any weirdness vanishes. I have introduced a lot of friends to Asian cinema and after the first couple of films, they have all adjusted nicely to seeing film through a different lens. :)

[@excalipoor]

Should watch Gen-Y cops for Maggie Q and Paul Rudd. Lol.

[@templarw20]

The moment of grief with the siblings. The acknowledgement that the evil man was still a father, was still family. Done very well here. Was also done well in Netflix's Castlevania at the end of Season 2.

[@michelletruong9064]

Thank you so much for covering Shangchi! I was hoping y’all would and so happy that you did. This episode had so many gems and great advice in it 💕

[@CinemaTherapyShow]

Our pleasure!

[@Trizzang]

Family baggage + the need to make your parents proud/honor your parents is strong too in this movie. Shangchi worked his whole childhood to make his father proud and earn the respect but Wenwu was just blinded by revenge. The little sister was left with betrayal from her big brother when he never came back and dealt with no recognition from her father because she was a girl. But it gave great representation and I love this movie so much!

[@jommysalami227]

Man I cannot WAIT for therapist reacts to everything everywhere all at once. That NEEDS to be a video you guys do

[@alex4833]

I second this :)

[@Laura-pk2fd]

You have my axe

[@wisemoon40]

One of the things I love about most MCU films is that the fight choreography doesn't just move the plot forward, it isn't just for excitement, it actually explores and illustrates character. The best MCU films give each character a very distinctive way of fighting...that is influenced by their culture, their personal history, and their personality. Shang Chi just does it at a whole new level! Flirty-fights, enemies to lovers arcs...I love all that stuff. But this is just magic. It's actually common in the Chinese films I've seen, but the interesting thing here is what you called out--they manage to blend it with MCU action in a very integrated way. Keep up the good work guys! (Side note: if anyone wants to learn more about the VFX work on Shang Chi, the Corridor Crew channel did a video about it. It's a great channel, you should definitely check it out!)

[@babs3241]

I love this movie; it became my favorite MCU film about half an hour in. There are few thoughts I have on Wenwu's psychology, in addition to what you've addressed here. "I have to save her": How much of that was, "I have to save me"? He imputed everything about his change to her, and he's no longer happy running the Ten Rings. He doesn't even seem concerned with anything other than search for Li. If she came back, does he see it as bringing back that better self who he was with her? And the thing about that is, it's the thing he wants most in the whole world. It's interesting that, as long as he must have held that subconscious feeling that somehow, Shang-Chi was responsible, he still didn't express it, and seems to have believed on a conscious level that his brutal training was what Shang-Chi needed to be strong. He genuinely tried to be a loving father _as he saw what that meant._ When you mentioned the difference between Wenwu, whose life change didn't hold vs Shang-Chi's, whose did, I was trying to parse it out in my head, because obviously, Shang-Chi also changed to fit into his new family, the Chens. But I think a difference is--and here, it doesn't matter whether it's a romantic relationship or not; I think it's obvious that Li was also Wenwu's best friend--that Wenwu saw this change in his life as being a gift given to him by Li, something that would go away when she did, but while Shang-Chi/Shaun obviously does find a salvation in Katy, he doesn't see it as something she's gifted upon him, a kind of magical change of heart. Instead, he sees in her something that he wants to be, and makes the effort to learn the real underlying reason that her life and her family's values work for her, and tries to emulate that--not for her, but because he sees in her something that he wants and takes active steps to gain that for himself. (Also, I just think it's kind of cute that this guy, who is essentailly a kind of dark fairy tale prince, sees this working class girl with bad fashion sense and nice but not stunning looks, and obviously considers himself to be the lucky one to have her and her family in his life. I mean, how adorable is that scene with Katy's grandmother?) The thing about the lesson Wenwu takes is that it's true--if he had never taken off the rings, a low-ranking crowd of hoodlums would not have dared to attack his home. I doubt that's even in question. So it's a perfectly sane practical lesson to take from it, and if he'd confined himself to "I will protect my children now," it would have even been a healthy one to some extent. The problem is that what he connected it with was this idea that Li was wrong and he couldn't escape his past, and therefore anything he did on that score might also have been wrong, so he could go back and embrace what had always worked for him before. The other thing about Wenwu that's occurred to me is, how much of his belief system was formed in the middle ages? He would have grown up about a thousand years ago, and I found him so interesting that I actually went and learned some Chinese history. In Western China, that would have been about the time of the era of Fragmentation--the chaos after the Tibetan empire fell. It would have been serious chaos, with warlords running all over the place, and for a medieval warlord, his behavior regarding his wife's killers was almost tame and honorable. How much of the world we were brought up in stays with us over the years? How much of it will still feel like the "normal" way of doing things even decades (or in Wenwu's case, centuries) after the world has changed? In modern sensibilities, the right thing to do is _obviously_ to take care of his children and let the police handle the murder. In the medieval world? In any part of the world at that time: Not so much. He seems to have been living as a medieval warlord for centuries. And when we've seen his loyal followers, they seem to view him as something of a god, which also would put him outside of social norms. So yes, morally, he should have grown into the 21st century, but how much of his behavior would have been learned in a _very_ different world?

[@babs3241]

Another random thought--when Shang-Chi shouts, "You trained your son to be a killer, is this what you wanted?"... is it? I mean, is it actually what he wanted? He talked in the earlier scene about Shang-Chi proving himself strong enough to hold the rings. That would mean that he _was_ actually planning to die. Did he want his son to put an end to his life?