Cinnamon Coffee - Is it Cheating?

[@ChippCoffeeCo]

I think you are quite right that transparency is key here. Adding other products to the fermentation stage isn't anything new, whether its certain yeasts, other fruits or even water. And should we be the ones to create those lines and boundaries? If a producer can take what might be solid 85 point coffee, ferment it with another product like cinnamon and add a couple more points on there who are we to argue that, we see the same thing with naturals scoring higher than their washed counterparts all the time. But again transparency from all parties is the main thing here I believe.

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Yeah I think ultimately once it’s transparent then everything is fair game and what will be interesting will be what the coffee community collectively move towards/endorse etc. Time will tell which techniques are embraced and seen as valuable etc.

[@simibenzadon2941]

@@coffeewithmaxwell1835 💥 transparency id key and also well appreciated

[@chrusty96]

Great topic Maxwell. Amazing to leave people with a question like this so everyone can really think of what you just shared and how they feel about it. Thank you, keep the episodes coming.

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Thanks so much 🙏🙏🙏

[@Liamb.ra_y]

Great video Maxwell, there's something so enjoyable about viewing coffee as a platform for philosophical thought experiments. You should arrange some sort of roundtable meeting with people like James Hoffman and Scott Rao, i'd be super interested to be a fly on the wall in a conversation like that.

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Thanks Liam, that is a good idea!!!

[@Jammmmed]

It's great to explore these kinds of questions, I really enjoyed this! I often find it tempting to become a 'purist' when searching for excellence in coffee, so I like the idea that there should be no boundaries or restrictions - as this leaves space for exploration and embracing diversity. I am fascinated by the interconnection of flavour across the plant world, and so I find myself drawn to another question.

[@Jammmmed]

This question features in Barista Competitions - such as Dale Harris 2017. Is it possible to re-create the exact flavour profiles in a coffee in a format such as a perfume or scent? Most people might say why on earth would you want to do that?!? Well - I honestly just really love the flavours in coffee and the reason I got into coffee is the experience of flavour associations with other plants. So I wonder if this questions has further ground to cover that could be interesting?

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

@@Jammmmed Hi James. Thats a really interesting question, 100% I think you could. the perfume makers of the world will be better placed to help us achieve this "re creation". I am actually involved in one r&d project whereby we are trying to create certain positive and negative flavour notes from base compounds to then use as references to display certain results to people. I will say its really tough! but I love the idea. With water we can get people to re create the mineral content around the world. It would also be good to reference complex aromas and tastes more easily.

[@Jammmmed]

@@coffeewithmaxwell1835 super interesting and exciting times!

[@zhuoming95]

Remembered tasting that coffee like it was yesterday due to the overwhelming taste of Cinnamon in the cup. It was the Costa Rican Cordillera Del Fuego Caturra from 2019. Mind blowing taste that was! Glad that you've shed some insight on the matter, was always curious what processing could have cause the end cup to taste that way.

[@michaelguieb2084]

This coffee is so sus actually 😂

[@georgeaivazyan8376]

Great episode 👏 I would prefer drinking "flavor added" (if well made during processing) coffee to any commercial one. I tasted some fermented with man made fruit yeasts and they tasted really good. But I don't think we should call them specialty. This is different category. These coffees should also be priced lower. As you say, we should know where flavor comes from.

[@noohoozfurra]

Hey Max. What a brilliant episode. Not gonna' lie, my brain is itching. I was filled with righteous indignation, at the thought of someone lobbing a shit ton of cinnamon sticks into the early coffee process, to influence the outcome, until I remembered I really like Brewdog Elvis Juice, for that grapefruit addition. Hypocrite, springs to mind! That said, there's something about the brazenly overt aspect of 'fiddling' with all the bean delicacies, that grinds my gears and I think I might just be pandering to my coffee snob tendencies. I am in no way a 'cofboff', as I've 'fessed to you before, but the more I drill into the science, the more protective I become of it. So, in conclusion...i'll get back to ya'! 😄 Great work, fella...

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Thanks Colin, haha, yes I echo your thought process!!! haha

[@stuartritson3158]

Really liked this. I do think the craft beer comparison is one I've really considered before. Craft beer really embraces a lot of adjuncts, but should we? I'm really not sure.

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

thanks Stuart, It is a good question !

[@tedlongden1724]

A lot of food for thought. The explanation that makes the most sense to me is to simply differentiate them as separate products. Coffee which has been processed with additives, barrel aged, flavoured etc can be interesting and enjoyable. However the magic of coffee when I first got into it (and still to this day) is that the seed from the fruit of a tree, once processed, roasted and brewed, can taste like something completely different - something that hasn't been near the supply chain. Hearing customers say "what have you added to that" is still one of the most gratifying things. An interesting question would be where do we draw the line? If coffee that has been roasted, ground and then flavoured is too far, then what about aging green coffee in whisk(e)y barrels? And if that's too far then what about additives to the coffee during the drying stage? And if that's too far, what about additives in the fermentation tank? And the soil? And the water? Like I said, a lot of food for thought.

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Hi Ted. the drawing of the line question is really interesting. I think that generally in coffee, lots of individuals have slightly or even wildly different opinions haha and then there occurs a consensus of sorts over time, I guess its classic community trends etc. It will be interesting to see where that consensus ends up around these topics in coming years. of course consensus could not be achieved and we could end up with distinct different camps in coffee, like we have had with natural v washed in the past. I am glad the video provided food for thought. I do think its a fascinating topic!

[@sloanecoffee7411]

We just had this coffee from the Arcila brothers for the holidays, the cinnamon one and the mandarine one. Regarding the cheating, I agree, as long as you are transparent about how that flavour got there it is not cheating because you are not lying about anything which was the case at the Amsterdam WOC. It was a bit of a leap of faith from us but we felt it just tasted in a way (good way) we never tasted coffee before and wanted to share it with our customers. We presented it as infused coffee and the reaction was mixed and it varied a lot: the specialty coffee first timers loved it, it made the weird flavour notes of specialty coffees something they could understand for the first time and opened up their appetite to try new things. The specialty coffee regular drinkers liked the experience but would not make it a regular with some even going as far as refusing to drink infused coffee at all. So, my experience with it is good, it was a fun experience for everyone and opened up some interesting topics. Should it become “the way” of producing interesting coffees? Probably not and it probably won’t for reasons you explained so well in the video. Is it a necessary and let’s face it, exciting and fun, step in discovering what are the boundaries of what can be done? I think so.

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Thanks for sharing. I do think these kind of experiments have a place !:)

[@F2Play]

50percentarabica meme's is right lol, they added cinnamon to the fermentation tanks. But it's surprising for me that's the thing is true based on your story. My thought is tend to be cheating, for me all the process didn't intended to add flavour by add that spesific flavour. It can said artificial flavour right ? like nescafe with the flavour things. I roasted many beans from region in my country (indonesia), they have unique flavour. But one day my friends bring me coffee with strawberry notes from aroma, taste, and aftertaste. It's quite high aroma of strawberrry when my friend brew that coffee, all the way this coffee like strawberry coffee. And the processing method is mysterious, the processor didn't want to share how they processing that coffee they just said "it's natural process coffee with extra fermentation to the GREENBEAN". Discussed with my other friends, he's Q-grader and after taste the coffee he said "this coffee so artificial, this is tend to be defect because all the strawberry covered the origin notes of the coffee". When the coffee added by another compound or composition that same as or intended to be spesific flavour like the cinnamon thing, that's artificial and i can said i dont wanna buy that greenscoffee. I open for discuss too

[@RobsDunne]

I guess the idea of taking a complex aromatic product and making it monotone in flavour does not make sense, with regards to buying green coffee for its Terroir characteristics, although still Intriguing. I'd agree that this is what natural coffees have become, for the most part. That is, an over arching "Same Same But Different" flavour profile. It's odd that what the industry seems to be drawn to is actually the opposite to natural complexity. Modified Homogeneous Profile.

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Well put. I think this is why it feels uneasy with me

[@anguswalker104]

Wine is sometimes fermented in oak casks & is often aged in oak as well. Also, some cheaper wine is fermented in a neutral (cheap) vessel with the addition of oak staves to add that rich "toasty" note you can get. Further, some countries allow grape juice to be chaptalized (sugar added) to increase the final alcohol content from fermentation. So why can't coffee cherries be processed in a similar manner to enhance the consumers experience.

[@kaheldan]

El Diamante really opened my eyes on such Costa Rican "cinnamon" desserty coffees. Being so distinct and unique among experimental processes, considering a lot of them do end up in that coco/warm spice area--- still a treat to taste every now and then though Welcome to KZbin!

[@ShinigamiSama86]

Like you say clear ladling i think is the way forward but I don’t see it as anything different from when we started to see the rise of single origin coffees over that of the blended coffees

[@Nole256]

So nice to see you finally over here. This is a rather philosophical question! So hard to answer... But I guess that I have to agree with the green importer José, in my opinion is about creating diversity. Not that the other thing doesn't have a place in the market, but I would like to believe that the specialty market would strive for authenticity, quality and sophistication whatever those things means hahahaha. Take a look at Yemania for example... I don't think that would've happened if the country weren't so isolated and "tradicional". The lack of resources and a close relationship with the environment is to me what creates something special, a culture, or a bloody mother population of coffea arabica in this case.

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Hey, Thank you for the kind welcome to KZbin. Somewhere to talk and share coffee musings. how was I not here earlier haha. I agree that authenticity will always be key and I think that these kinds of coffees are less likely to fall into that category. The rum barrel is potentially more interesting in this way.. Yemen is interesting though right in that a lot fo the flavour that is exciting people and getting high scores and prices s coming from very modern and experimental processing techniques being introduced, as well as the intriguing and exciting genetic potential of the plants growing there. so a combination I think is happening there. ultimately I thin a world of flavour is part of what defines coffee and the different stories and origins. If the cinnamon coffee from Costa Rica only tastes that way there thats kind of interesting too. Anyway I will stop rambling. Thanks for the comment and the conversation !

[@simibenzadon2941]

Well explained. I share your point of view. ✨

[@philipphenauer9206]

I think the most important would be on the farmer side of corse transparency of what and how to have it transparent on the roaster side as well... and then if it tastes great, why not! of corse the next topic would be according to the rules this would be illegal but nobody touches this topic...

[@philipphenauer9206]

Rules (WBC, WBrC)

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Yes I agree it then becomes about the individual choice and taste once its transparent....except for coffee competitions who have to decide ....hahaha. .....

[@philipphenauer9206]

@@coffeewithmaxwell1835 hahaha but this might be a long differnt story...

[@matzhouse]

so.... blends... what difference does roasting different beans (or even processing the green coffee together) together vs mixing roasted beans do?

[@coffeewithmaxwell1835]

Hey Matt, good questions! I am chucking some polls ver on the patreon for future episodes. Blending is a good topic!

[@matzhouse]

mind blown.

[@fredbloggs7345]

Coffee whisky best mmmmmm

[@orangelinn9547]

☕

[@micmicoy]

I peak a transparent Peak Water jug 😏