Two Likely Reasons Why Your Guitar Tone Sucks

[@progun1corn]

About the Hi-Z: Guitar's ouput is a high impedence signal, these kind of signal will lose trble information due to interference, very long cable, or mismatched input impedence etc. As for input impedence, you usually want 10 times as your guitar's signal. Uusually real amps have about 1M ohm which is enough. Audio interface's line level jacks are way lower than that, so lower than 10 times and loss of treble information, means muddy sound and less harmonics. Hi-Z means high impedence which will change input impedence to like 1M (read manuals), so it will sound like a normal amp. Other ways are using a DI box which convert your signal to low impedence, so not only into your PC it sounds normal, but also can prevent loss through very very long cables. And convert the signal directly from the guitat with a preamp circuit.

[@heavyvibrationstudiopl3256]

Wow...

[@AlexRafn]

Actually great explanation, thanks for that :D

[@drrodopszin]

I wonder how much is the treble loss in a 10m cable, let's say...

[@rotaryrevivalist5095]

If you aren’t running back and forth on a stage you only need a maximum of 10’ for a cable to record. If you’re using 10 meters I’m sure the loss wouldn’t be trivial. The quality of the cable has an impact as well. So if it’s a 10 meter, cheap cable. You probably sound like you’re under water 😂

[@MrWebsie]

That was truly awesome! I spent years wondering why my DI tracks didn't sound great, my playing was tight, guitar was good, interface was great, but the sound wasn't there. I realise one night that I was playing quietly because our kids were above me sleeping, and the only time I recorded was at night, when everyone else was asleep. There are so many variables to a good track.

[@mlsoundlab]

Absolutely - there are so many components to the overall tone, it's very easy to overlook some factors. If your family complain that you're too loud at night, tell them Mikko told you to play hard, we'll take the rap for it. -Kai

[@user-lw9py]

@@mlsoundlab your example about the wimpy way and attitude way is good. wimpy sound the guitar vsti . you have record drum samples can you please record a guitar VST or kontakt library in attitude way with good chuggs and so ?

[@duartefaria7134]

When you realise that you will not need your gain knob at max anymore, and that's when you will get the tone.

[@mlsoundlab]

Oh yes - especially true with doubletracking. Less gain = more articulation. -Kai

[@ItaiIfrach]

Correct me if i understood wrong - The more u add gain from soundcard - the more the sound become colored and less natrual..., and if u probably use much gain until u almost clipping from the interface u don't left enough headroom for mixing. so the solution is not add gain at all from the soundcard in this case of DI ?

[@jescowhite6047]

Cool video Mikko. About accuracy, could you specify at what input dBu level your ampsim plugins are calibrated to? I can compensate the input in my plugin (knowing my interfaces input dBu headroom) to be as close as possible for most accurate inputgain levels.

[@TheDwnfll]

I'm not sure if the zero gain approach is suitable for all Hi Z inputs. Focusrite Scarlett is notorious for having a pretty dang hot input even on zeroed gain, at least on the cheaper models. Hot humbuckers would push the ringlight red even when the gain was at zero. I tried this with my Audient iD4 and a 12k output humbucker and to get a -18 dB signal I had to dial the input gain to 9 o clock. With the gain at zero the ICON feeled a bit tame. But with a ceramic emg I bet the zero-method would work just fine! Using the gain sparingly is a good choice :)

[@mlsoundlab]

You can always compensate for too-low gain by using the input knob in Amped, it should stay a pretty clean signal! -Kai

[@urbicz707]

I would add to first tip, that input level is the most important part. Yeah to use Hi-Z is important just in case that you have different ports for different things, but if you have universal inputs for everything and you have to adjust input level manually, then everything can be drastically different. I have the highest peaks when I smash the crap out of my guitar set to -6dB, so I'm like 5dB below Mikko in numbers and maybe even 10dB or more in reality (his strings smashing was kinda gentle for my taste:D ). So it's matter of taste and maybe about that safety feeling that you'll never clip. So in my opinion all amp sims should have some info about the default input setup and you should be able to compensate. For the second tip, that's really personal thing, and nothing is really wrong or right.:)

[@Iosemplicemente98]

Perfectly accurate I think the same also my peaks never go above -12 and I have a -18 average that is perfect also from a noise to signal ration

[@iankinzel]

Btw thank you for posting this - these tips helped out a *lot* for the problem I had with the VX30 amp sim, where it was really really difficult to get a clean tone. Don't get me wrong, the overdrive always sounded GREAT, but overall it sounded like an AC30 with an extra gain stage. Fixing the audio setup helped clean up the signal.

[@mlsoundlab]

Glad to have helped you out! -Kai

[@ragnid]

What was your case, I struggle with this for 3 or possibly 4 years on most Ampsims

[@iankinzel]

@@ragnid Tbh this was mostly just a problem for me on ML Audio sims before I figured out The Right Way™. All I had to do for ML was pull the gain on my audio interface (Focurite Scarlett) to zero. As a guitarist, I'd always had in my head that "12 o'clock noon is neutral!" - but that interface is an ALL ACTIVE circuit, meaning that zero is neutral. Everything beyond that is a boost. So if you have your audio interface volume above min, you're boosting your guitar signal well above what it needs to be. What other amp sims have you had issues with?

[@eevildood4927]

I have Steinberg UR12 and have to raise input gain half way and the peaks are -4dB. So it's totally depends what audio interface you have.

[@mlsoundlab]

There can be variances with different interfaces for sure. Try setting your input gain on your interface so that the input light in Amped just starts to blink when you dig in hard with (preferably mid-high output) humbuckers. This is an alternate calibration method that should get you in the same sort of ballpark of gain level that we recommend. You can then leave the input gain there - hotter pickups will boost the front end a little more, then lower output pickups like single coils will have the expected amount of breakup. -Kai

[@Balmasedalpha]

Im working with Steinbergs URMKII. If i use de HI-Z Imput, even with the gain knob setted to 0, no added gain, ive got that im clipping in my daw (studio one), and the DI touches de headroom... 8( So i cant use my HIz imput... or im wrong?

[@drrodopszin]

Actually reason 1 can be a little module in the amp sims, like a little LED that you can click giving you tips: "Low input gain! Use Hi-Z instrument input!" or "Audio clipped before amp, please lower the gain!".

[@mlsoundlab]

Thank you for the suggestion! -Kai

[@drrodopszin]

@@mlsoundlab thanks for the reply! Another idea on this is having a "setup mode", because what if I just pick very gentle in a sensitive song? In a setup screen, you can give static tips like "use hi-z instrument inputs", also you can add feedback to the user "play a palm muted riff really loud - oh no, it's clipped! Turn down the gain on your interface!".

[@woodward_alan]

Your default setting is great and have went with that first off many times!

[@mlsoundlab]

This is the way! We love being able to pull up a plugin on the default settings and just get straight to riffing. -Kai

[@UncannyAdam]

I thought the secret was the 2 bad monkeys on the desk ...

[@mlsoundlab]

😂😂😂😂 That was really what this video was about! Nice that you caught it.

[@FrequencyAlchemy]

Wow. I’ve been using HI-Z output completely wrong. Thank you!

[@marcpeiron_studio]

Related to picking hard, the string gauge takes a huge part. What gauge are you using with Drop C?

[@mlsoundlab]

I use quite thin gauges in general and prefer the brighter sound I get. It depends on the scale length of the guitar but honestly I can stay in tune with a 52-10 set most of the time. On shorter scales I might bump it up to a 54.

[@guitargogden]

OK, so on my Focusrite 4i4 I've got INST, AIR, PAD options. Whare are the best options to have 'on'? (INST obviously)

[@XiyuYang]

Yeah you answered your own question

[@heavyvibrationstudiopl3256]

inst

[@guitargogden]

@@XiyuYang But what about AIR and PAD?

[@iligyf]

thanks for that! i also have the 4i4, so i got to search for what the hi-z is. i had it on LINE, gain at the middle and 48 kHz sample rate. will try the inst option now with 192 kHz and zero gain to hear the difference

[@sabholdings9995]

@@guitargogden Pad knocks down the input level. You could bring up the gain knob, however using "inst" is the correct gain structure to use an amp sim. Air is usually used for accenting a vocal mic. Un-natural for a guitar input.

[@sashlipinski7034]

How about running the guitar through LA-610 MKII then into my interface (interface carries no volume)? Little volume on amp with a little compression. Better to bypass the amp?

[@borndrumming1972]

The attitude part is more than 50% of the playing for sure. Great Vid!

[@mlsoundlab]

Absolutely! 💪 -Kai

[@juhalehtonen9000]

I use Fractal FM3 as an audiointerface, I do not own other audiointerfaces. I would assume when I plug into it´s input it should be Hi-Z, but is it? Anyone knows this? There might be something in the input block or in the global settings about this, or is it Hi-Z out of the box?

[@anabolicinsider]

So on the focusrite 3rd Gen do we use instrument or line setting in the control software? And then turn the input on the interface all the way left?

[@mlsoundlab]

Instrument setting, input turned all the way left! -Kai

[@jesperbc]

It's interesting to see the complete reversal of the plug-in industry in regards to how to set up your interface. Neural has been documented advising users to set their input gain to just below clipping, and ML Sound Lab reps have repeatedly advised me personally to set the input gain to just below clipping. But now we're seeing a complete reversal, where everyone says to set input gain to 0. That's really weird to me. The companies must've known this from the start. Why give different advice?

[@mlsoundlab]

Hey hey! I'm the only customer service rep at ML, and the advice since Roots' inception has been to turn the input gain on your interface so that the light in the plugin just barely begins to blink when you pick hard. This input light isn't a clipping indicator like you'd get on your interface - this is a visual indicator of the healthy input levels (and still a good measure, even by current methods). I don't believe I've advised turning up to just below clipping, this is not a method that I've ever adopted with Amped plugins myself. Check out 2:34 here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a2fGhnSkjLR5otk - Mikko mentions that the input light blinks on these harder palm mutes. -Kai

[@mlsoundlab]

Mikko chiming in here.. first of all notice that this video you are commenting on is 9 months old. It pre-dates all the current drama related to this issue. If anything I'll take the honor of being the first one to recommend setting the gain to zero. 😂 If you follow our instructions of setting your guitar so that only loud palm mutes light up the indicator on Amped plugins you should end up with the gain at 0 on most common instrument inputs. That is not the case with all interfaces so that is the best we could do 4 years ago. At least I'm relieved to know we have a standard that all our plugins follow. I'd be very interested in hearing whether or not that's the case for all companies because I know for some of them this calibration is all over the place and changes from plugin to another. This is the part of making amp sims no one is questioning - I can't wait for people to wake up talking about whether a real cab was used for cab impedance when modeling amps. This is a much bigger problem and I'm pretty sure it's a problem that exists for MOST AMP SIM COMPANIES out there.

[@MahmoudNader]

I would say cuz ppl forget about the power amp gain

[@colletteastle]

loved your story! good reminder to play with attitude 🤘🏼

[@Niramerica]

Hey, Kai. Thanks for sending me down the Mikko2 rabbit hole--something wicked your way comes next week. (Using Icon Left, Flagship right, and a mix of Mikko1 on one side, Mikko 2 on the other side.) Anyway, this was a really cool vid. One tech detail to ask--what is the recommended db level for the amp plug ins?

[@threepe0]

Well demonstrated and spoken, thanks man

[@mlsoundlab]

Thank you! -Kai

[@wojciechszeler2]

Thats not a lame example, thats a cool story!

[@mlsoundlab]

Well thank you! 🎉

[@iankinzel]

I play like I'm afraid somebody will hear me. That somebody happens to be my apartment complex manager, who lives in an apartment immediately below me.

[@mlsoundlab]

I've got it on good authority that your apartment complex manager really likes to hear people play guitar with ferocity and passion -Kai

[@iankinzel]

@@mlsoundlab Between the hours of 9 AM to 9 PM, yes. 😈

[@ctrlvic4241]

That’s like a 5-6k guitar, right ?

[@MixReady]

Picking hard is really SO important if you want the amp plugins to response in a certain way! "Playing with attitude" is a great way to put it 🙏

[@mlsoundlab]

For sure. Play it like you stole it! -Kai

[@user-lw9py]

you should release the di signal wav of your play on your homepage so can verify that it is real and no special eq. awhen do double track both tracks in di . I have test some plugins from you they sound dull and boomy as every plugin. far away from your demos. maybe problem is guitar they like not plugins. on my marshall combo my guitar sound not so dull . sure i have a cheap guitar and i also use amplesound lp VST there is a demo then you can hear yourself how dull that sound on your plugins

[@mlsoundlab]

If you look through any of our full mix demos, Mikko breaks down all the guitar tracks to show that there's no post-processing, no EQ, no trickery applied. If you're getting dull, boomy sounds, there are a few things you can do. Firstly, make sure you're using fresh strings - this is likely the biggest factor to a dull sound. After that, check your setup and your pickup height to ensure that your guitar is playing and sounding as good as it can. If you're still having issues beyond that, it's likely related to the pickups in your guitar. It's also worth dialling in your own tones from scratch - the presets are built to be as balanced as possible, to work with single coils and fresh strings, but also with vintage humbuckers and dead strings. This means that there's always a bit of a compromise, but you should be able to use them as a good jumping-off point. -Kai

[@user-lw9py]

@@mlsoundlab best is attach the DI . I have do a video "ML soundlab Icon not good sound with ample AME guitar" and in front is the DI . so you can see it is no false test. more precise Icon sound with the ample AME guitar (it is a sampled PRS) with less mids too much 4-5 khz fizzle same as old transistor distortion or miss reactive load. for more please read info in video

[@juanrogelrodriguez8285]

What stinks is that something as necessary to say as lowering the interface gain to its minimum value for the correct functioning of the emulations has not been said from the beginning and remembered from time to time by all the best-known developers. of sim amps among which is ML Sound Lab, and you have waited for some guitarists/youtubers (not sim amp developers) to have pulled the rug and explained the utmost importance for a correct emulation experience, of not adding gain in the interface to bring the incoming signal before the red clipping point of the interface, which is the logical thing to do with all signals before being recorded. It is a shame that you have not said, explained and remembered this key point configuration before each demonstration of a new release, after so many years buying the products that you show us recorded correctly, but without explaining to others how we have to configure the interface for correct operation. Your clients would deserve your apologies, no They are obviously mandatory, but it would be correct to do so. Thank you

[@mlsoundlab]

Our advice since Amped Roots 1.0 (our first amp sim, in April 2020), has been to set your input gain so that the input light in the plugin just barely begins to blink when you pick hard with a set of humbuckers. I think a lot of people are getting this mixed up with clipping - the input light in Amped is an indicator of a healthy signal. If you turn the input gain on your interface all the way down as recommended, you may see this input light start to blink when you pick hard. The ONLY reason we "changed" the calibrations methods and started saying to turn the interface to 0 was because we started doing more clean amps, and asking clean blues players to bust out some chunky palm mutes to calibrate their input gain was a little outside the realms of reality. Ultimately, both methods get you to the same level of input gain, but turning the gain to 0 is a much more streamlined approach. I've been the only customer service representative at ML since our first amp sim, and other than that the only other public-facing member at ML is Mikko, who is the person deciding the calibrations of the plugin. We would never have told you to set the input gain to just below clipping, at least not against our own advice. Check this video we put out two days after our first plugin: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a2fGhnSkjLR5otksi=KcMsD3x8YfApqIuZ "It's okay to see the red light blink every now and then, but if it's red all the time, that's telling you that you have the signal way too high - when you're palm muting, it's okay to see it blink". -Kai

[@juanrogelrodriguez8285]

@@mlsoundlab Ok, very good explanation my friend, now yes! It is something that I wanted to understand for a long time but no one specified anything, the instructions and manuals today seem that companies are ashamed of them and have stopped providing fat books of manuals ( 90S) to not deliver anything or practically nothing, waiting for intuition to make the product work, and that is giving work to the client and pushing them through setbacks and initial problems. Something in between would be balanced and less frustrating. Thanks again.

[@durnsadane]

Dude not lame at all. You made me cry.

[@Mariusags]

Excellent!

[@user-of9ut1hd9q]

It's interesting watching this video in 2024, and seeing that you had already been recommending to keep input gain at 0.

[@user-of9ut1hd9q]

Just to add to this, turning down the input gain made Amped Roots go from pretty much unusable to sounding pretty damn good. But I've also realized the noise gate, no matter how high or low it is, always cuts out a ton of gain. I don't really have this problem with any other built in noise gate.

[@MahmoudNader]

Also forgetting about treating your DIs

[@oneseven2682]

The best Kai!

[@Rudi.Junior1]

In summary 1) you need to read the instructions on your interface 2) you suck 😅Jokes aside the first tip messed me up for years so great advice. Love these guys I recently purchased Roots and ML800 and thoroughly enjoy using both plugins and all the demo versions of the other offerings.

[@mlsoundlab]

Apologies if it came across as us ragging on beginners - it was more a tip to play like you mean business, regardless of your skill level! Glad you're loving our plugins, we appreciate it! -Kai

[@slurggi1]

Or what r u saying? Just know the basics and u r good to go

[@danmillward3480]

The worst culprit for bad tone especially for beginners is bad intonation...most cheap guitars are poorly setup and if you are a beginner guitarist it's fair to assume you are also a beginner musician....and your ears are not developed enough to hear you are slightly sharp or flat and it often comes across as bad tone

[@janituominen4002]

whos to say what sounds good?

[@mlsoundlab]

Tone is subjective for sure. These are the generally agreed-upon best practices that will help most people out. Some people will like how the amp reacts to less gain (it'll be more like super low output pickups), or more gain (akin to running a boost up front). Similarly with the performance aspect - sometimes the timid approach may suit the song, it's all contextual, but for 99% of guitar takes in rock/metal genres, you'll want to be playing the guitar like you really mean it. -Kai

[@stegerguitars]

MOJO !!

[@charvlim5159]

Ew PRs 😒

[@runxzze123]

That's actually exactly the way you should teach a kid. I grew up like this, kids are to soft these days and too spoilt, they have 0 rockness (that's my word for what your teacher was trying to articulate). :)

[@vasekbeca]

Or, as Tuomas Saukkonen said: "If you wanna sound like a man, don't play like a little girl".🎸