Classic WoW Rogue Specialization - Combat Daggers

A look at my fairly standard PvE Rogue Combat Dagger Talent Spec. I take a more in-depth look at the talents, stat priority, and a few key items to help you understand exactly why certain skills or abilites are taken. This video also goes over the importance of Weapon Skill, Hit Rating, and how to calculate your Crit Cap properly. Please note the following additions and clarifications for the video:
1. If your raid is using all of its debuff slots, instead of Garotte and Rupture use Ambush/Backstab and Eviscerate. If you don't know, ask your raid lead or assume you shouldnt Garrote/Rupture
2. Make sure you ADD the crit suppression, not subtract it. This makes sure you are over what you need, so when the boss enforces that suppression you are still good.
3. Barman Shanker will take up a debuff slot, so see #1.
If you enjoyed the video please don't forget to Like the video and if you want to see more you can press the Subscribe button! Thank you!
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[@MrDannynuno]

So I'm laying in bed watching this video, wife comes in and says he looks like he's going to kill some dragons

[@tychus8219]

Killing some dragons my ass... he looks like he will summon Kil Jaeden more like...

[@ronnysantana4155]

3 years later and you are providing gold information to a total wow newbie. Much love and thank you for your content!

[@Apoptosis808GK]

Happy this is still useful!

[@Wonnnebju]

You've got a great calm way to explain in depth details. Keep it up with the rogue content!

[@Palumor]

Saw your BRD farming video and this one now - I think you're a very natural teacher lol. Your videos feel very authentic, please continue to post these!

[@ccarlile02]

I agree!

[@esportbets]

Garrote takes up a debuff slot, so your raid leader will tell you NOT to use it, regardless if the enemy is immune or not. Same goes for Rupture.

[@jacebulen5964]

Same goes for the Barman Shanker debuff. The Shadowfoot Stabber is a nice cheap BoE that will last you until Heartseeker, Felstriker, or hopefully Perdition's Blade.

[@goobyxddd]

@@jacebulen5964 Not actually true, Shanker only takes up a minor debuff slot and will get knocked off by any of the relevant major debuffs

[@MrWalkwaySc2]

That and garrote and rupture are a waste of energy/combo points

[@hitthegoat]

Let people play the way the want to play, Jesus Christ. It’s not like classic raids aren’t a laugh and a half

[@Owlbolt]

@@hitthegoat Me: *Watches guilds crumble after naxx release and not clearing them in 2 weeks* ...yikes?

[@apogeethepredator909]

This is the most detailed and informational video I have ever seen to break down to complexity of the formulas. Thank you for putting the time and effort into this. I'm looking forward to a Combat Swords video ;).

[@jeffafa_70]

Garrote and Rupture are probably not going to be used in raids because of the limited debuff spots. Ask your raid leader before using them.

[@TheBibleDefenders]

Best Rogue video I've seen. I like your style, especially how you explain soft cap and shit.

[@oldtoby2194]

Excellent job going over the details in a nice slow, understandable pace. Very informative and easy to follow along with. Nice job!

[@Chariots4010]

I went to like this video and realised I had already liked it four years ago, based.

[@Apoptosis808GK]

@Chariots4010 haha that's awesome. glad you enjoyed it again!

[@MarkPKMN]

Amazing videos Apop! Can't wait for the future ones :D

[@Damgaardfrederik]

You never want to open with garrote or ambush, you want to open with backstab. Also, never use rupture :) Garrote and rupture takes up debuff slots from the boss, which is better used for other classes/weapon debuffs eg (annihilator etc) And if the raid leader is worth his/her salt, they would be furious if they found out. You want to open with backstab because you will most likely crit, there is a tiny chance of you critting with your ambush, and then it is not worth! Besides that i really liked the video! :D

[@dremlok666]

There does come a time in the rotation where you gain energy tick if you open with Backstab you can follow up with another Backstab and then use slice and dice or try for 3 combo points and eviscerate (for trash)

[@dremlok666]

@BGCarrot you would have to have talents to make it worth using

[@dvdzvc]

So you're always spamming backstab then and rarely using ambush? Do you always finish it of with eviscerate or do you build combo points for rupture and then eviscerate?

[@Damgaardfrederik]

@@dvdzvc in a raid scenario you basically just keep up slice and dice, you can get a 3/4 or even a 5 combopoint evis off :D but most of the time you are just keeping up slice and dice

[@dvdzvc]

@@Damgaardfrederik ahh I see! in a WPVP setting would opening with backstab instead of ambush be better intead?

[@niemand262]

But, what are the crit cap equations for when we have greater than 305 weapon skill?

[@andrewkinnee2936]

Awesome quality. Keep it up!

[@clinkz511]

Thank you for the great overview! I have a question regarding transitioning from Combat Swords to Daggers. I am currently running Swords with Krol Blade in the MH and Mirah's in the OH. My plan has been to switch to daggers once I have Perdition's and/or CHT; however, I recently picked up Aged Core Leather Gloves which is making me reconsider things. The only dagger I currently own is Bonescraper, and I cannot fathom swapping out my Krol Blade w/ Crusader for Barman Shanker. Heartseeker is beyond my budget, and I have been unlucky with Felstriker drops. Should I stick with Krol + Mirah's until I pick up either Perdition's or CHT to accompany my Bonescraper? Or is there a scenario where you would advise running either a sword or dagger spec while wielding 1x sword and 1x dagger (until a second dagger is attained)? My sole priority is maintaining/improving DPS in raids during/after this transition.

[@seby6368]

Definetly stick with swords man, wait until you get one of that MC daggers

[@SpLaTTyDaDDy]

We rupture Ony in phase 2 in the guild im in when shes in the air. Bout only time I use it outside of pvp. Make sure your raid leader is cool with it though

[@clarencegutsy7309]

Actually a very good guide and with correct information.

[@bkmexican96]

Awesome video very in depth broke down the whole spec 👌🏽🙏🏽

[@dremlok666]

You should get the Tarnished Elven Rings from DM Tribute chest man so valuable! Other than that great info with formulas! Could use some work on the rotation part debuff slots are so limited you would never open with Garrote or finish with Rupture for this reason. Otherwise great video!

[@colemanwalker9193]

So, assuming we had one of the items that increases dagger weapon skill, with both points in weapon expertise we'd have 2-3 skill wasted correct? So if we are using distracting dagger or something similar should we respec and cut out one point of weapon expertise in favor of aggression? Thanks for the video, I knew a lot of the information already, but it's nice to have such a concisely well thought out explanation of it all.

[@dbasonic4728]

poisons are not effected by weapon speed. they are on a proc per minute basis meaning both apply the same amount.

[@Joeska2]

Amazing info, to the point!

[@nerdwhitenerd]

i wanna hear more about this CUH-WOW Classic that you mentioned at the beginning ;)

[@Barb4sale]

@Apoptosis808 Mind covering why you are using enough gear for 9% hit (saw on extended char stats) if you say you only needed 1% based on the fact you have the talents put in place? For example, you could easily get rid of true strike shoulders and equip wyrmtongue etc. for more crit Thanks!

[@martinkrupa4877]

I would like to correct your opening. Any dagger spec is highly depended on position. Opening with stealth may not be the best move: 1. get to rigth position takes longer time 2. u cannot use garrot in high amount of fights (immune or takes debuff slot (explained below by someone else)) 3. backstab is better way to open fight compare to ambush: no need stealth (faster positioning), crit on your AMB: *your_crit* - 4.8 (CS), on the other hand BS has 30% more crit chance by talents, so basicly when u put together number of openings, u may findout, that BS has bigger avarage dmg compare to ambush (another + for BS -> if we consider sealfate spec any crit means +1CP, but yet this is guide for cmbt dagger). To summ up opening without stealth with BS is better way in most of cases.

[@irlshrek]

awesome video! very informative and articulate. You mentioned that this spec wouldnt do well in dungeons. perhaps you can make another video detailing a spec that does and explaing what it is about it that makes it better vs this one seeing as how were going to be spending a TON of time in dungeons farming pre-bis items and such.

[@dekad5200]

awesome

[@Apoptosis808GK]

Big thanks

[@golvellius6855]

Thank you for the class sensei

[@Harrow_the_Ninth]

Whoa now I know all about daggers!

[@AshleyOCE]

@@Apoptosis808GK Leveling a rogue alt now, I assume you leveled with standard sword spec? Should I be using 2 swords or slow sword mainhand and a fast dagger offhand?

[@johnnychainsaws5914]

You make excellent videos. Keep 'em comin.

[@DonPaluso]

best dagger rogue related video i have ever seen. u should have more than mil subscribers. can u make a vid about rogue gear comparison .?

[@jameswilliamson4469]

Awesome video man! I was the 100th sub 😃

[@kartoffeltroels]

Awesome video! Thank you

[@Apoptosis808GK]

Glad you enjoyed!

[@jasonmurphy6126]

I feel 3 points in dodge instead of gouge is better for raiding, but as you said its personal preference.

[@MrWalkwaySc2]

I don't think either play a role in raiding at all. They're just better for open world pvp/dungeons.

[@jasonmurphy6126]

@@MrWalkwaySc2 Well yeah.. but 5 points are mandatory to progress into the combat tree.

[@MrWalkwaySc2]

@@jasonmurphy6126 Which is why gouge plays a better utility role for rogues. 3% dodge isn't much but a 5 second gouge can save you.

[@jasonmurphy6126]

@@MrWalkwaySc2 gouge won't work on bosses

[@MrWalkwaySc2]

@@jasonmurphy6126 Yea it won't but 3% dodge isn't going to help you in raiding either. Gouge plays more of a role outside of raiding too especially in dungeons or pvp servers.

[@mikaelboileau9853]

I had the exact same build than you for last few weeks and was destroying the meters and log,Im gonna try a little variation since I feel like relentless and the talent you get energy back isnt as good as the flat lethality or Humanoid bonus in mc since In my raids the boss dont last more than a min and a few of them in 35sec,But thats an awesome guide def a new sub,Can’t wait for that seal of fate vid🤘

[@MrQmicic]

Very good and informative video man. GG :)

[@majikkgaming5857]

So you’re telling me if I only wore a tarnished elvin ring for 1% hit and had my spec exactly like you, I wouldn’t need anymore hit% gear for MC?

[@TimeTraveler-hk5xo]

Technically, yes. But hitrate still improves the chance that your white hits will hit. I read somewhere that the bonus of 1% hitrate over the soft cap is somewhat equivalent to the bonus of 25 AP. Not too sure about that though...

[@IWillSexU]

you get 5% crit with dagger spec, if your MH is a dagger. You don't get 10% if you are using x2 daggers in example.

[@831Adventures]

love your video. good shz....

[@Apoptosis808GK]

Thanks (:

[@iTim96]

I really appreciate your content, keep it up!

[@MoonFooy]

Could you make a video about all of your addons that you use

[@TheSmilodon78]

Hello, what if i go for 321 weapon skill dagger ? Is it worth it ? Will it increase much my dps ? The belt from HT +5 the dagger +6 and the Gloves from MC +5 ?

[@IvoOtt]

great vids bro, keep em coming!

[@snixtah]

Awesome Rogue guide!

[@martinolsen7183]

Great video! I have a question regarding hit rating. So say I got Rune of the Guard Captain which gives me the 1 % hit i need. And for my headpiece I have both Mask of the unforgiven and Ghostshroud at my disposal. If I understand you correct, the 2 % hit from Mask would be unnessesary, so the mask will effectively give me 1% crit and 12 stamina, where as the Ghostshroud gives me +12 Strength , +19 Agility, +18 Stamina and +5 Shadow Resistance. So it would be the wiser choice to go with Ghostshroud. Correct?

[@Exdeu]

Great vid! Can we see Combat Swords soon? With swing timer calculations please :D

[@jexodustalks]

With your spec there is actually no reason to open with ambush as backstab 2 times has the best chance at doing the most damage and still awarding 2 cp.

[@tomsdrone2216]

Correction: the weapon speed of your mainhand does not matter, since your weapon damage for abilities such as SS and backstab are calculated with a normalized speed of 1.7 for daggers and 2.4 for swords.

[@mojojojo1980]

I have seen other info saying that as you weapon skill delta vs the enemies def skill reduces your chance to glancing blow to a minimum of 10%

[@otiliu]

Im a bit new to daggers rogue.Can you post a comprehensive rotation for any boss fight MC/ony..?

[@k2k4]

I'm rather fond of my 7/21/23 100% crit ambushing spec, so my takeaway from this video is that I can keep using it for raiding without losing my blessed subtlety talents by wearing items to add 8 to my daggers skill. Am I giving up too much for stealth speed, preparation, 1.5 minutes off my vanish CD, huge crit% on ambush, ignoring a bunch of enemy armor, and hemo for those last second hits? I don't know, because I really enjoy the spec outside of competative raiding, where I tend to place last compared to the other rogues and some of the dps warriors- partially bc I don't have any extra weapon skill equipped at the moment.

[@DonPaluso]

hey mate graet video. i am wondering about the enchants for main hand and off hand. +5 for main for for backstab right and off hand can go crusader ? thank you so much for the answer

[@niemand262]

Questions... Isnt it better fornalliance rogues to use a sharpening stone on their main hand when raiding? Many mc mobs are immune to poison, and +8 dmg increases the dmg of abilities, right?

[@attinger117]

Great video. My only question is how does combat daggers compare to combat swords in a raid environment? I remember in vanilla combat daggers was considered the best dps spec, but the playerbase has evolved quite a bit and human racial is strong for swords

[@groundedastronautgaming5841]

Definitely not gonna wanna use garrote or rupture imo. It’s a given you won’t use it in raids but even in dungeons or soloing you are going to get more damage out of just backstabbing and keeping up your slice and dice. If you can get a 5 point eviscerating while maintaining slice and dice then go for it. But eviscerate is only better than backstab at 5 points if you’re really trying to min/max.

[@turinx]

So you mentioned this was a raiding spec and won't do so well for dungeons or solo'ing, what spec/s would you recommend for dungeons/solo'ing/leveling situations?

[@KlakcheQ8]

A side question not about daggers , what are your thoughts of having “4 set shadowcraft gear” and “ 3 Cadaverous gears” ? I have all of these + the devilsaur set and im confused between the whole thing. Thanks for the video

[@mikaelboileau9853]

Thanks I learned a few things however theres a few pointers you would need to change if you are raiding,Like rupture and garrotte isn’t an option if you are raiding :’)

[@_Weper_]

Good video! What is better for human rogues? Combat Daggers or Combat Swords? I mean they get + sword skill from racial passive. Is Dagger spec still better for them? I'm currently on sword spec, but i'm raiding every week so i can get some good daggers (if they are better than swords).

[@_Weper_]

@@Apoptosis808GK Thanks for the information! :) I have Krol Blade and Mirah's Song, so yeah i have only pre-raid bis weapons.

[@lfgubrs]

I got myself Perds and BB the other day. I also got bonescraper in the bank. The 2 other top rogue dpsers in my guild are using one with Perds MH and BB OH and the other is using Perds MH and Bonescraper OH but they seem to do equal dmg. What of those options should I go with until I get CHT or dragonfangblade

[@vd-wakr]

Someone my guild told me that back stab resets my main hand swing. Is this true? I haven't noticed it watching my swing timer nor have i seen or heard it mention in any forums/videos ect...

[@Th3i2Av3N]

Great video. Just have 1 question. I’m sword spec but recently got a couple great dagger. Wanna stay sword spec tho. Would you recommend using sword MH and dagger OH? And if so or if not and why? Thank you!

[@snixtah]

I just switched from swords cause i got a couple good drops, i will never go back. Its so fun playing with daggers, its also viable in pvp.

[@DenTykkekat]

Very nice vid!!

[@craigbullock2189]

Rogues that want to top dps meters should actually stack more than 9% Hit. Most of their damage comes from white hits, and if you look at raid logs & compare someone at around 9% to someone with 14-16% you'll see an average difference of around 10-12% decrease in misses compared to the ones with less. There's plenty of preraid bis blue gear that gives you hit, so its not like it wasn't intended to be used.

[@xbriskx]

What is better DPS for PVE? Dal Rend pair or Lobotmiser + Distracted Dagger?

[@israelgoldrat9171]

Hi! today i got Circlet of Restless Dreams which gives +6 DS. together with Aged Core Leather Gloves that gives +5 and weapon ex that gives additional 5 i can end up at 316 weapon skill with daggers... is that good or should i drop somthing?

[@Brethgar]

I have a question about offhand weapons. I just recently got Felstriker and switched to Combat Dagger spec and am loving it. However, I have Mira's Song for my offhand right now. Should I be getting an offhand dagger immediately or am I ok to keep the sword as offhand for now? Thanks for any help.

[@Brethgar]

@@Apoptosis808GK So I picked up Heartseeker for my offhand with Crusader on it. I love my friends :) Anyway, I have most of the pre-raid BIS or at least optional giving me +4% to hit. Do I need to get Mugger's Belt or am I good?

[@jonnythescrub7413]

Big brain tutorial.

[@PowerXsardi2]

7:25 You don't need 9% hit rating if you have 308 wep skill. Only 6%. 5.7% actually, but there is no way to get decimal hit from items.

[@nxr2k7]

Could you explain why you are not using 2x Crusader on your weapons? But one +weapon damage?

[@brintondeighton3634]

Just making sure I understand the weapon skill... as a human wielding swords I would get +5 and another +5 for the talent weapon expertise, so no need to stack any more as you'd be at 310?

[@nemanjaraca]

Humans only get +5 on swords and maces, not daggers

[@Tollp4ch]

extremely helpfull video

[@0Rthx]

im at 316 daggers with 14% hit and 29% crit unbuffed. guess hit is still ok beyond 9%. although i still dodge abilities from behind, specially on core hounds and giants. Stuff thats huge and slow manages to evade your attacks. makes sense 😂

[@thomnilsson]

what is the best spec for dungeons? Combat Sword?

[@purppslurp8296]

thank you for clarifying hit cap percentage! Nobody believes me, that you only need 1% additional hit chance on gear with this spec. guess my damage output in my first raid this week will prove other wise!

[@Alphascrub_77]

More hit will still net you a DPS increase at lower gear levels. Don't misunderstand, you still have a lot of bis gear with hit on it. 1% hit rating is worth around 16-18 attack power in over all gear value. In many situations the only thing that over values hit is crit and that only after a certain gear level. Early on Strength and AP can net more dps increase than crit. You will probably have tons of gear as you collect your preraid bis, bring a lot of it to raid and do some tests don't be afraid to test and find your own results.

[@purppslurp8296]

@@Alphascrub_77 It increases your DPS at every level really and mostly at 60. Because as a Rouge the majority of your damage comes from white hits. To hit ALL of your white hits as a 60 vs a 63 nob, you need 24% hit.

[@panteraowns2515]

So I have 3 in ruthless and 3 in lethality. Should I respec and put 2 in ruthless and 4 in lethality

[@panteraowns2515]

@@Apoptosis808GK I went 2 ruthless 4 lethality. I like the extra bs damage but I can tell keeping 5 point snd is way clunkier then 3 in ruthless and I like getting that 25 energy back every snd every 2 is almost a free bs . I'm so torne between these 2 talents haha

[@1990rable]

what do you think of ghostly strike pvp? :) yes or no

[@rexlee6255]

Is garrote a big nono in raids because it takes up a debuff slot?

[@jasontremblay5799]

whats the addons that say where you find your loot from dungeon

[@crypticalenvelopment521]

Great video, very informative. I was wondering what your thoughts were on Crusader vs. +5 weapon damage for main hand?

[@IvoOtt]

Crusaider offhand +5 mainhand. in my opinion- the offhand procs the crusaider buff, while the mainhand has heavier sinister strikes.

[@SuperBlason]

what is the crit cap formula if you have 308 weapon skill?

[@SuperBlason]

@@Apoptosis808GK awesome thank you! I am trying to get deeper into calculations & formula but its slow going!

[@maumingmong7765]

Where is the seal of fate guide??

[@TheBerserkZodd]

nice vid

[@schreckenslordchecktranspo8545]

Dagger specc; 140-190 weapon dmg and 28 crit or 150-200 and 26 crit?

[@schreckenslordchecktranspo8545]

@@Apoptosis808GK hit cap is there, no problem. So?

[@schreckenslordchecktranspo8545]

Why not weapon dmg,? Because the difference in crit is too much?

[@skaban]

thanks!!!

[@Trefort90]

My guild would kill me for taking 2 debuff slots for rupture and garrote.

[@vd-wakr]

Thank you! needed this vid

[@aleksandar77srbija]

Barmen shanker has a bleed isnt that bad in raids?

[@derpataur1162]

I fucking hate the Barman Shanker. Have to have a macro that swaps to a different weapon so I can sap things, because the proc on that dagger breaks CC like it's cool.

[@frankrouse2037]

Soft hit cap is 6%. The barman shanker is crap for raids because it puts a shit debuff on bosses. Best pre bis is 6 piece shadowcraft while using devilsaur set.

[@srenelmelypettersson7581]

Barman shanker will take up a debuff slot on raid bosses, you should not recommend it for raiding as combat dagger.

[@Yureijeazz]

The whole guide is nice but barman shanker is putting a debuff slot. I got an heartseeker instead as prebis.

[@Asaghon]

Weapon debuffs always get removed by higher priority debuffs so it's not an issue. Test it and check the logs

[@Vennytube]

So...what's up with those nails?!

[@DutchTissueForIssue]

I like the video; really helpful :) Can anyone help me with this? If I have a rogue with 9 hit rating , that would make my critcap at 43.2, correct? 100-24.6-6-40+4.8+9= 43.2 Just want to make sure :) Cheers

[@DutchTissueForIssue]

@@Apoptosis808GK Ah thanks so much for the response brother! What is the calculation after 305 (since we are aiming for 308) Thanks; I really appreciate the replies : )

[@TheBibleDefenders]

Is stun mace spec worth playing?

[@Gingalicious1]

not for PvE, but it can be fun for PvP with the right gear

[@TheBibleDefenders]

@@Gingalicious1 Thanks for your reply! It seems that if you dual wielded the right maces, you'd get a lot of procs. Add that to 5 different ways to CC?

[@RusskoInc]

neckbeard on point

[@NoobGamersNetwork]

Go combat swords!

[@rosebeforehoes9829]

Barman Shanker isnt good for raid.. nor pvp tbh.. the bleed proc on it is a terrible debuffslot usage

[@dbasonic4728]

classic brain lol

[@tontonbaston7080]

Dude black nail polish..... wtf.... why not pink !!!