Clean Tour de France Riders Smashing Fastest Doped Climbers | The NERO Show Ep. 92

[@WattPolice]

Thanks for including the w/kg article in the the show 🤩

[@againstdrivingdrunk614]

no way.cant beeaaaatttttttt meeeeeeeeee on my bike!?!? probly not actually

[@user-xh7rz6sh7t]

It’ll be up to 8watts/kg soon.

[@BikesKomsCRO]

CAN I JUST SAY THANK YOU.... for calling out the reviewer you mentioned about the Coros, i love the fact you are holding him accountable UNTIL the end.. as everyone should! Love you Chris, this only grows my respect of your opinion and what you say about anything. keep them accountable and keep this show going, there is not better trainer videos to watch!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Thanks man. I should add I have had more contact from Coros, they have actually been very 'receptive' to the criticism (unlike Des).

[@oliverlennard]

7wkg for 40 mins in the middle of a grand tour at the end of a flat out day is completely unrealistic. It’s undeniable. We were all losing our minds at 6.2wkg a few years ago. Altitude camps are not new. Let’s not get lost in equipment/nutrition technicalities. 120g of carbs per hour doesn’t make you ride 7wkg for 40 mins at the start or END of a stage.

[@Kashimax]

Dude also gave the Giro crowd a towelling by 10 minutes, got COVID straight after and then lined up for the Tour. lol The people who are justifying it all because he changed trainers and is eating more carb are in full cope mode.

[@cracked229]

People said the exact same thing during Lance's era. History repeats itself.

[@colnagog6026]

These guys weigh10-20Kg less than Lance.

[@oliverlennard]

@@colnagog6026 and 4kg more than Contador or the same as landis for that matter.

[@starlitshadows]

​@@colnagog6026that doesn't matter. Because we are going off watts per kg. 7 w/kg for 40 minutes is what Lance's best FTP numbers were. I don't remember the exact number but I believe the theoretical physiological upper limit for a natural rider is around 6.5 for ftp. Matching the power to weight of a guy who was on a cocktail of dope should raise suspicions to say the least.

[@joelecho]

I get that Vingegaard said he's doing great numbers, but everyone takes that to say "well he's at his best" as if he's at his true peak. Guys, 10 or 12 weeks ago he had a tube in his lung for over a week, and spend probably a month off the bike. There's no way with the prep that he had that he's at 100% of what he's capable of. Not a chance.

[@krbndlls]

Same goes with Pogi year before. Their coaches knew it was not possible to get to a proper fitness to handle TDF loads, it the injured one get marked for being attacked.

[@danielgreenstein9159]

@@krbndllsyou can’t compare the injuries of pog last year to Jonas this year

[@sleepdeprived9181]

@@krbndlls Not even comparable to Jonas injuries. Jonas almost died. Pog is just had something equivalent to carpal tunnel. Jonas is just being his humble self. No need to take down other people's achievements by bringing out his handicap on interviews.

[@krbndlls]

@@sleepdeprived9181 I am not comparing them, I said they both were in similar situations where the substantial time off the bike hindered the fitness level necessary to fight strategically in GC.

[@sepg5084]

​@@krbndlls the situation is similar but incomparable. So it is pointless to use them as example. It's like a person winning $1 vs $1 million. They similarly win, but the similarities ends right there and it is absurd to use them as "similar" examples.

[@StopTheRot]

There are some interesting things to add to the equation: 1. Proper altitude training (30 days+). 2. Heat training 3. CO micro dosing 4. Bike stiffness 5. Bike aero (guys on the front are faster). 6. Clothing 7. Nutrition 8. Shorter stages 9. Earlier attacks 10. Lighter gears 11. Faster tyres 12. Lighter wheels 13. Rider position And more. Put Pog on Lance’s or Pantani’s bike, with their position, and tell him to ride the same climb at the end of a stage, with half the food and water, and his time would be far slower. Not saying he’s clean, but it’s comparing apples and oranges.

[@floflo2514]

How does all the equipment change the w/kg though... it makes them faster but not fitter right? The training stuff has to be taken into consideration and i dont know enough about how much of a difference that could make.

[@PlayaBoss96]

7 watts per kilo for 40 minutes is a mutant effort no matter how you dissect it. It's suspicious. Jesse is right, they are doing something

[@jsquire5pa]

None of this explains the sudden jump .. these improvements are incremental but we haven’t seen an incremental improvement but a sudden jump

[@OUTDOORS55]

Lol bro 😂🤦‍♂️

[@bertolaci9509]

​@@floflo2514its estimated wkg, based on a 60kg rider, on a set and modern CDA and rolling resistance, there are a lot of variables.

[@tristanm8250]

I found the process of training my FTP up to 5w/kg (for no other reason than reaching a particular fitness goal) very fun and rewarding. Some people are just addicted to the grind. On the other hand I've practically lost all interest in riding now that I've plateau'd out and have no arbitrary number to chase. It's not like competing at a P/1/2 level is any funner than competing at a Cat 4 level. No matter how fit you get you'll always get beaten in the end by someone stronger than you are.

[@Eirikkinserdal]

staying at 5 w/kg is also a challange. keep up the grind bro 😁

[@xAudiolith]

Same same. That's when I look internally though. There are always things to work on as a rider and a lack of goals is usually lack of creativity. Sometimes it's also good to do another sport for a bit or take a break and come back. Thankfully we aren't pros and can do that at any time.

[@BevandEdMusic]

I'm the same, I just love to ride and improve for the sake of improving. The tactics and danger/risk of road racing don't do anything for me, you could be as fit as hell and still get thrashed by a demon descender. TT is an arms race I CBA with. And I don't live near big hills for hill climbs.

[@AlexPeka]

Absolutely in the same boat. I'm hyper focused on fitness/the grind with background of downhill and gym. I stopped all that to chase road cycling fitness goals and got to a point where the time commitment outweighed the pros of "being competitive in E/1/2" If you want to be good, everything else in life takes a back step. You can lie to yourself that it's OK but in hindsight I could have been "better" to my partner, work and other life elements. You turn yourself inside out all winter and heaven forbid you have a guilty 2 weeks off on holiday you lose months of progress....blah, rant over

[@SandSanta]

@@BevandEdMusic The point is what happens when you can't improve anymore?

[@theoswinscow]

Chris, I live in France. To answer your question: yes, you can walk into a store and buy a 5000€ bike. They are however really low on stock so it's a bit hit and miss. Regarding the people you speak to, it's also really variable. Sometimes they don't really have a clue, and sometimes they really do. I had a 10min chat the other day with the seller about the various iterations of the new van rysel sunglasses. One thing you definitely can buy in the shops: the equipment. Glasses, jerseys, bibs etc.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

That’s really interesting mate, thanks for that update. I am super impressed that is the case, well done Decathlon.

[@bernardo9202]

@@ChrisMillerCycling Decathlon at least in Portugal it really is a great place to go into and ask the sellers for their knowledge on the different topics in store. For what i know 65% or more are graduated in sports science and Decathlon is one of the best corporate systems around, other big companies trust and search for those in the higher up positions in different locations. Because they responsible for a specific department and need to learn and be fluent in all sports that they sell. Of course, knowing the surface ain't the best for some people with more advance questions, but, they do pretty good

[@bernardo9202]

Also the Van Rysel in Portugal is like 15% cheaper compared to the rest of europe, to anyone interested

[@Antoine_Frs]

I have similar experience, when you walk into a Decathlon there usually are one or two RCRs in stock. I think one of the reason explaining the low price (appart from very thin margins) is the random customer service. There may or may not be an RCR on display, it may or may not be your size for you to test, the seller may be a cycling enthusiast or just someone trying to read you the spec sheet without having a clue. I worked as a mechanic as a summer job and we see random city bikes and kid’s mtb all week long, an RCR owner would probably better go to a bike shop to get it serviced.

[@releasethekraken5299]

You're exaggerating a bit because I've been eyeing the RCR Pro since its launch and have only seen it available online a few times. Yesterday I only saw a few pieces available online in 3 different sizes for the €5,500 version (Ref.: 8872072). Zero stock locally for me, 3 Decathlon stores in a range less than 20 kilometers. I bought a Van Rysel RC520 in 2023 and a second one in 2024 and both times I had to wait a week for them to receive it at my local Decathlon. Despite being one of their most affordable best seller it's generally not available in the 3 Decathlon stores near my city. Most Decathlon bikes are shipped from the same warehouse.

[@Hellrun]

The always clean Slovenian Alien and Danish Anchovy 😂

[@Ale19_21]

Two great friends of the channel.

[@Ale19_21]

150 per cent clean.

[@JakeXSV]

Cycling Highlights channel is amazing

[@DB-hb1go]

Lol, cycling highlights the tru cyclist channel

[@bbqcrew1]

Getting off a bike after a 40 minute max effort and not looking remotely cooked brings back memories, and they're not good ones.

[@moopt7339]

I look worse after pumping up my tires for the ride

[@timkavanaugh6474]

Lance!

[@jonskislo1]

@@moopt7339that s why noone knows you except your local village

[@cormacatcyclesierranevada1451]

i have never witnessed a rider in any era going flat out for 40mins and not displaying obvious signs of fatigue. Pog and Vingegaard are beyond the realms of belief. Just by looking at their body language and the pedal smoothness when going flatout is a red flag.

[@moopt7339]

​@@jonskislo1no sense of humor I assume

[@macht4turbo]

I appreciate the w/kg discussion. I'm close to 4w/kg and because my weight is just 64kg, that does not feel fast at all. I'm fairly okay at climbing, but in the flats most people are or at least seems to be just faster. I achieved that after 9 months of structured training starting at about 3.1w/kg, around 10-12h training per week. That is all very managable, so there is no reason not to just keep chasing the higher number. I don't race, but I do bike packing and being able to ride longer at a higher pace is a great benefit and the reason i started structured training. So that is my motivating factor. I actually like training and it is great for my mental health in a mentally taxing job as a social worker. I would not do the training, if it wouldn't benefit my riding or my life in that way. I would agree that just chasing the higher number won't suffice in the long term.

[@Hambini]

Inhaling carbon monoxide to get a performance benefit is apparently not considered to be doping and Pogacar claimed to have never heard about the concept, even though his team openly admit it. I'd say it was doping and the reason it is not deemed to be doping is because there is no reliable test for it!

[@thedronescene7474]

😮

[@traversecitysufferclub]

It's only doping if it's against the rules. I would call it an ergogenic aid. If we were going to consider this to be doping then wouldn't using altitude tents also be doping?

[@traversecitysufferclub]

@@Hambini love you 😘

[@Hambini]

@@traversecitysufferclub And this is where the interpretation of the rules comes in. "Gaining an advantage by non-natural means" is probably the loose term for doping. When people are using PEDs then it's fairly easy to detect. When they inhale carbon monoxide, I would argue it's not natural but they are allowed to do it. Some of the management at team UAE have been involved in some of the biggest doping scandals and yet manage to keep in the sport. To put it bluntly. I think pogacar is doping. It's just nobody has detected it yet. Why the hell would you claim not to know anything about sniffing carbon monoxide when his team openly claim to have access to it. You would expect their premier rider to know what was going on.

[@gabrielmazza7923]

To be noted that they are using it for testing only, not as a permanent performance enhancer. It's important to share the details, not just the opinions

[@ranisharoni75]

Until today no one broke a significant Pantani record so taking 4 minutes in the last 10km on attacking 98 peak Pantani is simply unreal. Pogi taking 5.5 minutes on Armstrong/Basso beasts is also crazy

[@Calidastas]

It’s absolutely absurd.

[@Luke-c]

@@Calidastasagree. A few seconds maybe, 4 mins is an earthquake. It’s mental people think that’s from getting your nutrition right lmao

[@bleskiven]

This was not one of his best records though. The climb wasn't paced evenly.

[@bernardo9202]

Maybe go watch the race, and compare the pace between both of them, Pantani, didn't ride the climb like poga did, nowadays, riders go on a consistency high pace throughout the stage and climbs, just that, takes a lot of time. Of course Nutrition is also a big factor, Some riders would be drinking beer and eating ice cream during the stages, gels are more powerful and easy to digest, so you can have an energy reserve much higher than ever before. The components, just in terms of cranksets, pedals and shoes, you can save so much energy during a ride and also is a way more efficient way on power input, when you add the whole package, even if you want to cry about rim brakes, bikes nowadays are way faster, than what ever bike Pantani ever ridden

[@jimbob-nz24]

​@@Calidastas also absurd that people are comparing Panatani and Lance doping as the peak that there will ever be and should never be able to be beaten.

[@PHHE1]

Pogacar: Covid 1 week before the tour Everyone else: Covid during the tour Winning strategy

[@bensonburnsaus]

Yeah, nothing new on race day!

[@Evaso_CC]

@@PHHE1 “Covid”

[@87Rasser]

I wonder if anyone knows, will covid/hospitalisation in any way effect the testing regiments or the allowed blood numbers? If so it is very interesting - just as interesting as the mystery why so many athletes are suffering from asthma.

[@2181337]

Covid-Doping

[@robertleipler2029]

Chris, during the show you mentioned that the maintainable (meaning “having a life”) amount of training would be about 12 hours a week. Does that include off bike cross training? Just curious. Cheers.

[@joelecho]

Benji is right. Jonas waiting for the last climb and trying to out kick a guy with less fatigue resistance and a way better kick is giving the stage away for free. The ONLY way Jonas takes back big time, which he needed to do, is to make it hard and crack Pog big time. It's the way he's always been beaten.

[@lukewalker1051]

Jonas didn't have the legs to attack Pogacar on the large mid climb. Jonas can't beat Pogacar this year. You can dice it anyway you like.

[@johnfarrelly9060]

Jonas did not have Roglic and Kuss to tag team Pogacar in the manner we witnessed last year.

[@grahamhoppstock-mattson2224]

Re: The Escape Collective article. I have no issue with the research, with posing the questions, etc. In fact, I think it is worthy of celebration. That being said, the clickbait title and insinuation it frames the article with is borderline libel. I think it is a rotten article meant to sow doubt and disenfranchisement into every viewer of the sport with the way it is framed. That's fine if you have absolutely anything to go on, but they do not. All they have is insinuation and that is not good enough. I think it is a shameful article.

[@shawnington]

It has merit, HIF1-alpha stabilizers such as cobalt chloride can be used to induce EPO synthesis, in combination with hypoxic stress that can be induced by CO. There is currently no way to differentiate use of banned cobalt chloride compounds from Vitamin B12, per WADA. "Due to the erythropoiesis-stimulating effects, the misuse of cobalt and cobalt salts in sports is prohibited both in- and out-of-competition. While total urinary cobalt levels can be determined by means of inductively coupled plasma-mass spectrometry (ICP-MS), there are currently no assays for the detection of inorganic cobalt which exclude cobalt-containing molecules such as Vitamin-B12." It's 100% possible to use CO to cheat in this way, and it's legitimate to raise questions about teaming suddenly carting around equipment that was previously only used to test hemoglobin mass at altitude camps.

[@user-xh7rz6sh7t]

Kinda like the LA years? C’mon dude.

[@911tj]

Heck yes 4.0+ is worth the work.. a lot of time on the turbo, but tearing it up on the road is such a confidence booster

[@davehanhela5997]

This is my fave ever ep. I enjoyed hearing about Chris' own approach to w/kg and eating etc. It's easy to think as an amateur racer that you need to be super light, when unless you're racing up mountains, you're better off enjoying your food and getting max overall watts.

[@stevenfreeman7798]

Wakey wakey boys that much improvement in a year!! Get real!!

[@frdm5774]

Let alone the recovery after that performance to do it again the following day. Doping.

[@bernardo9202]

But is Pogacar improvement or is Jonas that is coming out of a injury?

[@michaelsteven1090]

@@frdm5774 great point! The recovery is ridiculous!

[@troycollett8540]

It’s possible

[@davidlilja9180]

Great show, again! In your Pog chat there was no reference to Pog's change to 165 cranks. Power is torque to rpm. Is Pog pedalling noticeably faster now to help explain his improvements amongst the aspects you did mention? His Giro 'training block', followed by a hard 4-week altitude block before the Tour, must also be relevant as his recovery is now also greatly above previous expectations?

[@colintainter4856]

Very good discussion. 2 things: 1) Regardless of drafting, it has been shown that there is a mental benefit to pacing 2) when we look at avg w/kg over a given timeframe it matters how regularly those w/kg were put out. If you were to go all out for 5 mins then recover for 5 mins then all out again the whole 40 mins, your avg at the end would be lower than if you rode one power the whole way. So how regular were Lance, Pantani, and contador going up the climb? I’m not sure

[@mtbrichard]

Are these imputed w/kg or from their PM? Is weather being included? A little breeze makes a big difference in time.

[@TheBassallyear100]

Pogi had the perfect conditions for the Giro. More time between the Giro and Tour than usual and blessed with, for the Giro, incredible weather. It really ended up being great prep for the Tour but could have gone much differently.

[@gregbrown3764]

And really meh competition for the overall.

[@robbchastain3036]

Re the Tour riders, I just hope that all they are doing to their bodies in training and preparation is beneficial for their bodies in the long run of their lives. I enjoy the competition as entertainment and I dig that collectively they are promoting cycling among a worldwide fanbase, but again, I do hope they're doing it clean and healthy. And thanks, Chris and Jesse, for another great chat about bikes and bike people and even bike computers. 😀

[@CliftonDon74]

Innovations in technology, training, and nutrition have contributed to the increases in performance. Overall, the riders on this 2024 TDF were stronger and faster than ever before. It wasn't only Tadej.

[@julienhuxley4172]

I'm much more aligned with Jesse's take on the doping questions raised this year than after the TT last year :D

[@BJKeane-mc6bm]

During the "is FTP gain worth the sacrifice" discussion there was a lot of talk about w/kg. I'm curious on your thoughts on the Compound Score for say 20 or 60minutes as a better marker to track. IMO this seems to be a better indicator of 'Fast' in the context of most rides and races versus w/kg which seems to apply mostly to just climbing.

[@philipk4475]

It's a better predictor for classics-style races according to one study. "Compound score" is just a fancy way of saying it's your best watts over 5 min squared and divided by kg . It's a BMI calculation where instead of cm you have watts.

[@BJKeane-mc6bm]

@@philipk4475 Said differently, its your w/kg * absolute power for a given duration. I know the 2022 study looked at 5 min but I'd argue it is a metric worth looking at for longer durations as well. Its hasn't caught on like I thought it would.

[@justwastingtimeaway]

Last year the comments blasted you for hinting at doping. This year the comments blast you for not saying doping!

[@jonskislo1]

Difference - balkanian vs westerner :)

[@dadcram]

What climbing bikes are EF using? Is the Super Six EVO Lab another dual use bicycle?

[@PlayaBoss96]

You have to be so naive to think they are clean. It's entertainment.

[@endaohalloran6649]

What are they taking then that's illegal?

[@sean7456]

@@endaohalloran6649 Yes, with the second half of that being the main point: what are they doing THAT'S BANNED? Because if it isn't banned, it's not doping. period

[@ahhalla]

@@endaohalloran6649 Most likely autologous transfusion

[@dwqdwwdwqdqwd2950]

clean boy pog is faster than all the past and present dopers, he's just that good 😂

[@AndrewisTri-tn1uo]

@@sean7456 That's not a very convincing argument. It's pretty obvious if you're taking a drug or doing a medical procedure that isn't specifically approved, that's doping, whether or not it has a proven performance benefit. Whether the drug has a name yet, or is on a banned list, is of no relevance. If you wanna be a pro sportsperson and want to take medical treatment, get a TUE for it, or you're doping. Simple.

[@thefollandgnat]

Agree that Lance is always entertaining but you really don't get Wiggo's sense of humour. He was hilarious. Maybe it's an Aussie thing, although I thought you did dry down under. Plus he certainly added value. Who predicted Carapaz's rise in Week 3?

[@user-xh7rz6sh7t]

SUPER CLEAN. 0 doubt.

[@DP-PhD]

If we look at the estimated Watts/kg levels for the hour records, including Filippo Ganna, and if these estimations are reasonably accurate we are possibly seeing around a 1 watt/kilo increase in this climb, or based on 5.9-to-6.9 increase, about 16% higher. The hour records outputs are for longer yes. They are however after peak preparation, and not up a mountain, in the heat, in the middle of a grand tour, after hours of full on racing, super fast. Something to consider maybe

[@JohnSmith-ck5qk]

The reason why Des Fit isn't apologizing is cause a few weeks ago someone commented on his coros video and asked why isn't he covering the negative parts, and he responded, that his video is his actual honest opinion on it, and so he either truly thinks the product is okay, or he's doubling down. Either way, you aren't gonna get an apology from such a person

[@EddyCat1234]

Hey Chris, a couple of days ago I returned from a 5 week trip to Europe. A long the way I dropped in on 3 Decathlon stores. Paris, Bordeaux and Berlin. In terms of bikes the French stores only had low end Triban branded bikes including both road and gravel. The Berlin store (Alexanderplatz) had a van Rysel RCR and RCR Pro on display, which I assume you could purchase, but not much in the way of stock. Definitely a nice looking bike. All the stores stocked Van Rysel shoes and kit. I purchased a couple of jerseys, base layer, gloves and the 2nd tier Van Rysel road shoe. Seems like good quality at reasonable price even for a Aussie! There was no stock of the top tier shoe in any of the stores. In terms of their commitment to cycling Decathlon have all the bases covered with plenty of mid to low end stock including apparel, parts and bikes (road, gravel, city) plus a service department. As an Aussie this was pretty impressive to see. The shop floor area dedicated to cycling was immense. If they launched into Australia I think it would a success and potentially a major disrupter for the lbs and to some extent Bike Bug, Pushys and Ccache.

[@VelosportTaylor]

If we're talking about choosing between the R5 and S5 and both can be built down to the same UCI legal limit, I would have to assume that the R5 can have the deeper wheels which may help in some way. There's also a slight difference in reach so maybe Jonas's position is different between the two bikes, the S5 may be optimized for higher speeds while the R5 may be optimized for power production. My opinion, assuming both can be built to the same weight, would say the S5 has to be the better option for basically all conditions and I think shallower wheels are actually better for acceleration but I'm sure there's some justification for the choice by jumbo somehow. Who know, maybe it's just playing on placebo.

[@salvadorestrugoalborch3653]

the S5 handlebars look terrible, R5 for me

[@thomaspetersen9991]

Pogi Dont look tired at all😂😂😂.is that normal 😂😂😂

[@CliftonDon74]

I think the hottest day was Stage 1. Pogi finally got a coach who got his nutrition right. Plus, his altitude training camps are paying off. It is also easier to dedicate more time to training when you don't have children.

[@Richard-me6eq]

Its all about nutrition and as if by magic recovery plan...😅😅😅 and lots of money👍👍

[@thomas77ify]

Ya when you are doped up to the eyebrows it´s "normal". Nutrition and aerodynamic socks my ass hehe

[@jayeoliver9259]

Cycling Highlights is so goood x-D

[@AndrewisTri-tn1uo]

Why is 5w/kg such a silly goal but people spend years or more chasing a powerlifting total or a 3 hr marathon and that's completely normal? The talk about what training hours works with life is interesting. The final taboo topic might be talking about managing relationships and responsibilities (ie wife and kids) while training as an adult. That shit is messy. Seems like a topic you two would (or will be soon) well equipped to talk about though.

[@polarisb518]

You can debate endlessly about whether TDF 2024 was shadowed by doping or not…but…the bottom line is the physiological quantified data belonging to certain riders and in comparison to previous months and years just doesn’t make sense whatever training method one uses. The final seal for me was Pogacar’s performance in stage 21 and the huge advantage above everybody else. He had always been very good. He has never been that good compared to himself and others as he has performed during 2024.

[@urouroniwa]

Totally agree on the w/kg issue. Everything else is perfectly explainable. I would even buy it... except... Why now? Why right this instant are we getting 7 w/kg for 40 minutes? I think Pogi has been on amazing form this year, but the timing is weird. If this was training techniques, I would expect a slow creep up to 7 w/kg over several years. The improvement in a single year is hard to accept, TBH. The perfect timing for the queen stage of the TdF amongst the chaos of training for the Giro *and* getting Covid. That's got both of my eyebrows up. But, the other weird thing is, it's not just him. There are a handful of guys doing historic efforts on that climb and on that day. And we can say anything we want about better training, better equipment, better nutrition, better tactics... But none of those things are all happening to a *group* of people all at the same time in a surprising way. Vingegard has been off the bike, so we haven't seen that much of him this year. But again -- what about last year? What about the year before? Do we have data to support the idea that this is an incremental improvement due to improved understanding of how the body works and better training techniques? Or is this all about every single rider peaking for a historic effort on the same day? I don't think I have enough eyebrows for that, if this is what's happening. (To be fair, I've got no data -- I'd love to see performance trends for the last X years)

[@Jarek.]

_I would expect a slow creep up to 7 w/kg over several years_ .... Tadej has changed his coach and shifted from "tons of Z2" to more focused on higher intensity. I'd buy this relatively quick improvement - giving also his training plan has been updated.

[@TheCyclingCardio]

For me personally: I’m age 40, 68 kg, fat 21%, Visceral fat 11, and 3W/Kg…to me, improvement in W/Kg is targeted by reducing belly fat, and hopefully being able to climb with more enjoyment instead of suffering

[@liammerrick6399]

The move is ok. what ruins it is all the sponsorships. he commits what feels like half his air time to ads. It makes it unwatchable for me

[@troycollett8540]

Lantern rouge is much better

[@mikew466]

I don't know how you get around the stage length issue, but I do often wonder if they use E-bikes of some sort to get these records. I'm not sure if that is better or worse than regular doping.

[@eto2352]

thanks to Jesse for calling out the completely misleading, clickbait article. For a site that claims to have real "journalists", this kind of article that has no claim of sources, interviews or one gram of evidence that cheating is occuring.. it just smacks as desperate and hurts R.McL's and Escape Collective's reputation.

[@TheSolarScience]

@@eto2352 Riders get exposed when they stop pedalling. Wheel can spin out and cause a slide. kzbin.info/www/bejne/rXK0foqlhriMf7Msi=RuopBc83xAKR6xDW kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZe8Y6agarGbrtUsi=LKlvDJxM7mNJulsw Wout and motor kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIaqf36tmMeVetksi=727La9ZCglmBTtga Motor causing problems when rider stops pedalling? kzbin.infoOp4QMB8TVaQ?si=yNdlCeT5QoktL1mZ All this makes me look at some historical falls differently .. like this Iconic moment. Now I ask .. how does that corner almost take them both down? Road falls away a bit .. which unloads the wheel a bit … so .. looks like a harmless corner . . Hmmm kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmS3h3tva72imaMsi=w9riiCYMPj8dLOJq

[@ashaw1016]

Im glad i chased the 4w/kg goal back in the day as now im in my mid/late 30s with 2 ypung kids. Even though i train less, weigh more but i think because ive never really stopped riding ive kept a nice chunk of that fitness.

[@Frandaman84]

Jessie’s copping out super hard here, he just doesn’t want to say they’re cheating, and it’s too obvious to not say it.. this is just a biking channel, but can’t say I’m not a bit disappointed. You’re THE guy we have here to analyze this. But go on fellow..

[@funfunfanfun]

Are any Van Rysel RCR bikes available at my local Decathlon shop here in Bulgaria? Of course not, they're order-only, and of course the girls who work there have no clue about the bike's features or the bikes themselves at all...

[@johnmess6772]

Sydney has a Decathlon store next to Ikea so why don't they stock van rysel bikes?

[@theotheroneb1548]

About the W/kg chat, people forget there are other zones that matter. My threshold is pretty low for a cat 1/A grade rider, usually in the 4.5 to 5 range. However, im pretty conformable doing 7+ for a couple minutes at a time all day long. Then having an 1700W sprint makes me competitive on any course that doesn't have a full on mountain.

[@Carftymk]

has jesse seen the pogacar training plan leaks?

[@endaohalloran6649]

Would LOVE his opinion on that!

[@LukeSkywalker-io2bh]

Leaks? Who leaked them? What do they contain?

[@troycollett8540]

??

[@stephen4347]

I asked the mechanic 👨‍🔧 that works in the Drcathlon bike 🚴 shop had 🤷 no idea what I was talking about. He pulled out his tablet saw the RCR and said they will not stock those high end bikes. You’ll need to order it online.

[@nicolas2838]

Van rysel: In Germany you can't buy the expensive bikes in the store. You need to order them online and pre pay them. In the uk i m not sure if they sell those bikes at all. You also have to check the size yourself as s/xs/m are different on all bikes. For the bikes: FCR is the 2020 pre corona concept which got delayed. It was developed before the wt plans. It is not wind tunnel tested but looks cool. Tests show its worse in aero perspective compared to the rcr. The NCR is a non aero all road bike. It has a very wide frame for super wide tires. However the geometry is very race orientated and not for comfort. It comes with cheap groupsets. The edr is just endurance orientated. The rcr was the pro bike until the tour. They have two different carbon types. So its devided into rcr pro and rcr. Rcr is with rival and force while the pro is with ultegra, dura ace in the team colours and an old version with red. Since the tour ag2r uses a prototype version without proper colour scheme. I m riding a rcr force and for the flat german north the gearing is terrible but as soon going to the south it makes much more sense. However im usually spinning quite quick on my 165 cranks. When going above 65kph, i ve the feeling of running out of gears. But for my sunday races its just the perfect bike.

[@Antoine_Frs]

Spot on. The EDR is the oldest of them, when it came out it was the only mid-tier bike from Decathlon, so they designed it as an all-rounder. I wouldn’t call it just an endurance bike, it’s more like a gran fondo bike, meant to be ridden at a relatively good pace for hours without getting beaten up. I did few lunch rides with the Van Rysel engineers, some of them were on the EDR for the daily 40 km / ~1 hour loop (before they could get their hands on an RCR).

[@kennykaniff]

I follow cycling highlights channel. It's got great information and the guy who runs the channel is very knowledgeable. The humor is great too. It's a bit over the top in presentation but the details are all there. He makes all the links between riders, Drs, teams, and all the connections to make a complete story understandable. I've been there for 6 months or a year now. I love the info he brings. There's a video he did 2 days ago and at the 3:25 - 4:10 there is a post from a guy (I forget who he is but he is in the know) and it shows what lance was doing pre cancer, what indurain was doing 90-95 and then shows what pogi was doing in 2020 and then again in 2024. It was great to see the numbers visually for me because I'm a numbers guy and I have to SEE the numbers. I can't remember or soak in knowledge unless I SEE it. I recommend anyone interested goes to the channel and looks at the 2nd to last video. I think it's a video from the 15th or 16th 🤘🏻🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

[@derfx89]

38:52 I'm not sure I agree with the concept of a reference wheelset the way Dave Arthur does it. Anyone willing to spend 5k on a bike will be able to spend 100 on new tyres, yes. But I'd say the wheelset is a much bigger financial factor and a crucial component of the package you've selected and bought. It's also a component many brands are trying to skimp on. So I think it's fine to use a reference wheelset to judge the frame, but you should also review the bike with the wheels as you buy it.

[@JacobChristiansen1]

Vingegaard was the one who said the numbers were surprisingly spot on. The numbers were around 7w/kg for vingegaard in his attack and that then later dropped to 6.5 for the rest of the climb for him. Pogacar was about 7W/kg and 7.12W/kg NP for the whole climb

[@englishteacherdon]

You are very naïve if you believe that Pogacar is 6 minutes faster because he eats healthier pasta than Lance.

[@waysidetimes9226]

The question is how many watts is EPO worth. 20 watts from aero, 10-20 watts from tires, could it be 20 watts from nutrition? Seems to me like you'd have to be on EPO and have all those gains to be 3 mins faster on a 15km climb.

[@petesjk]

You don’t seem to be aware of the advancements in knowledge of on bike nutrition. You also don’t seem to be aware that pasta is not considered ideal as a source of carbs, and hasn’t been for over a decade. Naïve who knows, but you seem a bit ignorant.

[@PerryScanlon]

Isn't the title a joke? I hope so. Elite athletes don't just beat the best times by nearly 10%. It would be like a runner running a 10k in 24 or 25 minutes despite all the elites being in the 26's for years.

[@waysidetimes9226]

@@petesjk If you had a power meter and you did rides with different sucrose/hr intakes you'd realize how unbelievably wrong your whole line of reasoning is. The 30 extra grams of sugar an hour guys are taking now compared to the early 2ks is not comping for EPO. Not even close. Not even hard to test. IDK how you fall for this kinda crap 🤣

[@waysidetimes9226]

​@@PerryScanlon I think they believe that the sport is actually clean. If you believe that modern bikes are 50 watts faster than race bikes from 25 years ago ~on aero alone~, you could actually convince yourself that the new gen of riders are completely clean and somehow completing a 15km climb 3 minutes faster than guys so doped to the gills that they'd risk a deadly blood clot if they sat on the toilet too long.

[@gnarkillMTB]

Oh please, thinking these riders are “clean” while beating previous records set by riders doing blood transfusions and test is just being naive. The money in cycling allows team doctors and riders to be 5 steps ahead of the UCI testing.

[@endaohalloran6649]

I do genuinely believe the level we see today is not down to doping or at the very least doping of the nature of the 90s and early 2000s I know the meme about carb intake but when I chat to my local ex pro/semi pros from that time period, the shite ways they'd eat to try and lose weight was diabolical. 6hour rides fasted with salads as a recovery meal or "carb" loading the night before by eating 10 chocolate bars And the priority of blood doping back then simply had to take away from time and research into other performance improving methods. Why would you focus on fueling or efficient weightloss methods when pumping more blood into your body did such a good job? And think about the Froome years. Low carb, low calorie rides were the rage too. I remember endless Durianrider videos hating on Team Skys lack of carbs lol. Jacob Fuglesang said in the early 2010s he was nowhere because he barely ate carbs. Then when he started in the mid 2010s he consistently became a top rider for a few seasons You barely ever see riders bonk anymore. Pogi in 2022 stage 11 and MVDP in the 2019 WC? Thats it? Even riders in the 90s bonked. EPO doesn't create calories so clearly they're feeding themselves differently than before. In training and in racing Then when you include Ketones and how they greatly increase carb absorption guys today can train at a really high effort rate, recover, restore glycogen and go again. To me that doesn't sound as crazy that the best in the world are getting so good

[@steinanderson9849]

its not a matter of carbs/calories that is the issue. the issue is the amount of oxygen in the blood to breakdown the glucose and create energy. based on my numbers, although I can only use VO2max figures publicly released (89.4), Pog was riding at 95% of his VO2max for 28 mins on Pla d’Adet which is extremely eyebrow raising. 5 min effort yes, 28 min effort superhuman. For that effort to make sense, Pogs VO2max would have to be approx 99-100 which is 3 points higher than the max ever recorded.

[@Silidons91]

Comical. Same thing with shit like weightlifting in the olympics. Okay, if they're all clean, WHERE ARE THE ROIDED OUT DUDES WHO CAN BEAT THEM? ALL pro athletes are on PEDs. It's literally NOT A NEGATIVE. It's part of reality. Half of the cat 4 crit field is on testosterone at the least! You know why? Because why WOULDN'T you want a better quality of life? The stigma behind PEDs is so low IQ.

[@frdm5774]

@@steinanderson9849doping.

[@jovan.vuckovic]

Pogacar did around 450w for 40 minutes, weighing 65kg, after 3/4 hours, stage 17 of a grand tour. The pure numbers sound diabolical

[@jovan.vuckovic]

And jorgenson did almost 500w for 15 minutes yet he is nowhere in the GC, let's be real for a second...

[@alexcavill1986]

Hey guys, I DM'd you both on Instagram but crashed on Sunday and wrote off my Nero suit. Do you guys do crash replacement?

[@kevinbarkema1666]

Teams were using things that exited the system before the stage was over a decade ago. Guessing improvements make it still possible and untraceable. If everybody/most are doing something, it's still a level playing field.

[@frdm5774]

So give Lance back his wins officially?

[@Silidons91]

@@frdm5774 They should, yeah. He still has all the wins. Anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot. Which is why 99% of pro cyclists respect him.

[@jpethereal]

I watched the final itt stage. Pogi had 2s advantage in first 24sec and he downhill and cornering in a speed that is at least 5k faster than vingegaard. I don't know if they doped or not. But the details make huge difference.

[@patrickcrump897]

As someone who lives in the uk with a decathlon store very near by. I’ve asked the decathlon employees a couple of times if I can have a look at one of their rcr race bikes. No matter what the spec is they do not have them in the store and they say it will take a week or so for them to order it and then for it to arrive. I wouldnt be surprised if this is also the case for all decathlon stores

[@goansunborn]

Thinking about what Lance's team were doing at thier peak with blood transfusions in hotels and motorbikes driving around France dropping off gear seems crazy. Having a small motor in a bike seems pretty realistic and doable. Interestingly i think people would think motor doping is worse than taking PED's!

[@SamuelBlackMetalRider]

From Paris (4-5 Decathlon stores) Stock for RCR is very limited, almost always « sold out » the RCR PRO cannot be bought in store. Only the mid-tier version with Ultegra/Force. The real RCR PRO with its integrated narrow aerobar is NOT on sale (yet?) anywhere

[@nicolas2838]

Funny, in Germany it's in the online store for 2-3 month.

[@SamuelBlackMetalRider]

@@nicolas2838 the RCR PRO with Dura Ace? ´cos the RCR PRO with Ultegra or Force is available. Not the top tier, real PRO setup

[@JordanHammond7]

Just checked Decathlon Spain's website. They list the RCR with Force, only size XL is in stock. But when you look at which stores have the bike available, all stores have zero stock. So, maybe it's too new to be on the shop floor as yet. From experience, the Decathlon bike mechanics are skilled enough to put an everyday bike together, but there will be no in-store sizing customisations.

[@TheCountrySteve]

With regard to the Decathlon question, I'm not sure what the situation is in their flagship stores, and they have a stand-alone Van Rysel store in London now, but you certainly can't walk into my local store and buy an RCR. The most expensive bike they have in store is around £500. You're lucky if they've got any higher-end cycling socks available. They did get *one* of the new aero helmets in, which was actually very impressive for £80

[@jonm8423]

What happened with the undetectable lugworm EPO story from a while back?

[@runl6117]

Nothing

[@pandemicratparty2277]

My riding peak was during the Lance years. Today, it feels just like 'Lance' redux. It will always be the same. Enjoy your illusions.

[@johnkerkhof1952]

Its ok to be sceptical with cycling.History has prove that.

[@PePethePedalPusher]

No, no, it's clearly not when you can make money claiming riders are clean when you know the top level of every sport world wide is not, wink wink

[@BorjaAOS]

That w/kg chat was amazing, what's for Jesse the w/kg required for not suffering in your bunch?

[@jnstroik]

These performance numbers are absolutely crazy. They could be real, but i don't think we can discount how well people trained in the past, including getting heat and altitude adaptation (heat adaptation happens very quickly). These are monster numbers compared to the past.

[@DCassidy42]

What if bike frames aero difference is negligible and people read too much into it? System weight and body position are way more important, but that doesn't sell 15k Chinese frames.

[@gregbrown3764]

Well, it all matters. But there are no possible (UCI Compliant) aero gains available that outstrip body position, as you said. But it's seductively easy to BUY speed.

[@iancollins6104]

I was thinking that today. Look at the differences in the depth of the wheel rims.

[@kennykaniff]

If you look at Sir Bradley on The Move he is so tweaked out on those keytones it's insane. You can clearly see him trying to chew on his ear. It was noon and he had already had 3 keystone shots and wanted another one😂😂😂 🤘🏻🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

[@bigredactionsportsstuff1245]

I thought the Move episodes with Wiggins were great, a good dynamic between the three of them.

[@32993771243475]

Might as well start saying “165mm crank won TdF”! 😂

[@TopgunB]

Speeds have increased due to equipment, better altitude and heat adaptation training but mainly nutrition. Not only taking in more carbs but becoming fat adapted. That is to say training the body to quickly switch from glucose to free fatty acids and ketones by exercising the hormones that do that. For me that is 75% of the improvement

[@rexringschott]

Good chat. I especially enjoyed the w/kg discussion at the end.

[@roeland_st]

43:50 I'm a belgian junior (17 years old) and I was looking to buy a van rysel as a back up bike but my mom doesn't really trusts decathlon so now I'm looking for a canyon. Problem is they just launched a new aeroad and massively increased their prices. uodate 45:54 yes you can walk into a store and if the bikes are in stock you can ride it in the store.

[@S9999Frank]

About the van Rysel, all the slow guys want free speed remember ? Not just the struggle from 39-41km/h that is real, also the 29-31. If the bike is harsh there is always wider tyres and lower air pressure right ?

[@danielmacdonald4005]

Great vlog. Glad you didn’t linger too long on the elephant in the room. We can all agree, if it seems to good to be true, it probably is - but without any conclusive evidence, its only speculation. Could skirt all day around the various advancements etc etc but it means nothing without proof. I remember a few years ago when froome went off on his solo victory at the giro, and the team put it down to well placed water bottles to save him carrying a bottle. It’s ridiculous, but what ya gonna do.

[@shaung1719]

Tech, knowlege and nutrition has been matured for years now so why the outstanding performance this year.

[@ernestoechevers4741]

Something most don't consider when making these calculations is the distance of the stages when Lance and Marco did those climbs vs the distance in today's TDF stages

[@tanyabodrova9947]

It's true the stages are shorter nowadays but the riding is much more intense. There were many more totally flat sprint stages in tours twenty or more years ago, the whole first week for example, and the longer mountain stages later on would be a procession before the TV cameras picked up coverage an hour before the end and the riders started attacking. Now there's ridiculous pace right from the start on these stages, with only a couple of breakless sprint processions to compensate.

[@PerryScanlon]

Carbon monoxide is legal but not HIF stabilizers that would amplify the benefits. Somebody said there's no test to distinguish cobalt chloride (illegal) from vitamin B12 (legal).

[@mrwezbo]

Hey Chris, any big plans for the landmark ton show? Super cool to think you guys have got (getting) there, really happy to have tuned in since day dot.

[@123oner2]

is 4w per kg for an hour considered good for a recreational cyclist?

[@tt-tk9076]

very good. cycling wise its better than average but compared to the general population you might as well be lance armstrong

[@horstgunther3203]

2 Decathlons where I live had a bunch of RCR's (but not the top spec Dura Ace / Red ones)

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Thanks for the update on that.

[@nosuperpowerman]

@@ChrisMillerCyclingI’ve also seen RCR in store in Slovenija.. It had Sram rival and Zipp 303s.. no top spec ones..

[@myNamezMe]

Would be interesting to know the BMI and how it might have changed. Just looking at the rider weight might not give the whole picture.

[@aneczka2114]

best part of my week

[@pierrex3226]

Get a life, seriously

[@Tuffjobs]

19mm tubs are fast! And Pantani lived in Rimini, so of course he was acclimatised to the heat! ☀️ 😏 ☀️

[@BreakawayB]

*They’re clean.* Is that an unpopular opinion?

[@cracked229]

To the informed, yes. To the masses, no.

[@sean7456]

It is. It's also correct.

[@wrwicky]

I’m very hopeful but a little bit pessimistic that these are clean performances. But it’s certainly possible they’ve discovered a grey area, while legal now, might get banned later

[@slash18gabita]

As you might have seen UnoX will be on Ridley bikes from next year

[@kkkwwwaaakkk]

For 10 years!!! ridiculous contract

[@AlexeiRamotar]

CO training has been known to improve EPO levels in the blood since at least 2020. To think that high performance endurance athletes aren't doing this is to be naïve. That being said it's not illegal and personally I don't think it should be illegal.

[@AndrewisTri-tn1uo]

Why shouldn't it be illegal?

[@LukeSkywalker-io2bh]

Anything that enhances performance unnaturally should be illegal period. TUEs also because that's how SKY got their advantages.

[@jubeman]

@chris congrats on winning the state of origin last night at halfback (mitchel moses doppelganger) 😊

[@thisnameisrandom]

Lance is a funny guy, having never apologised to the world of cycling for ruining it for a decade+ Des reviews: shills a gps, will never been forgiven 😂😂😂

[@DjDeepfry1]

All of these people saying the training is better, the equipment is better and the nutrition is better. Lance said the same thing 20 years ago.

[@valmorell]

Love that JC is wearing a Snap T. Lack of badging suggests it's a reasonably priced copy not an overpriced original....

[@rowemeister83]

Chris, in the UK, you can enter a decathlon, look at the RCR and have a little test ride around the store. However, during two visits where I have done this, the staff said the bike would need be ordered in as they aren't in stock on-site (and the pro-level bike sells out faster than they can stock them, in most stores). I was upset, but also happy in the sense that it saved my marriage. If they were in stock, I said to myself I would just smash it onto my credit card and walk out with it. Luckily, as they weren't in stock, my wife hasn't killed me.

[@miche_amico]

Maybe mechanical doping rather than biological doping is involved, or maybe both. Wiggins is great on the Move. It's ok for someone to have a little bias towards Jonas, he did win the last two tours. Everyone doesn't have to constantly fawn over Pog, cycling is a sport not a cult....right? I find the domination of Pog a negative thing for the sport. Why tune in if you know who's going to win.

[@sepg5084]

Domination of the best athlete is detrimental to the sport? Lol. This is the pinnacle of the sport, your "participation medal" loser mentality should stay in grade school sports. It is not the fault of the best if their opponents are lacking. What should the best do? Lose on purpose so that loser fans find the sport "exciting"? Self proclaimed "Clean" riders bashing what they proclaim as "Doped" riders. It should be "doped" riders who are losing are bashing "doped" riders who are winning. Loser mentality is so cringe.

[@LukeSkywalker-io2bh]

But you don't know he's going to win at all. He blew up one year, and V wasn't in peak condition this year at all.

[@proctermorris6657]

In my opinion, the chasing Watts per Kilo thing is purely a production of Zwift in the main part. And the way racing unfolds on that platform.

[@chiefwarmpaws]

not so sure - having a bigger number to boast about might motivate some, but for zwift racing i would suggest it can be the opposite - so much sandbagging goes on it keeps a lid on 20min power numbers (until the dreaded UPG to A of course). since zwift have finally started to realise most races are decided on ~5min power, their change to categorising on the wider power curve makes a lot of sense, so maybe people will number chase 20min some more...

[@proctermorris6657]

@@chiefwarmpaws , yes, but the whole premise of Zwift is W/kg. So it would be a very big focus for many.

[@chiefwarmpaws]

@@proctermorris6657 fair point e.g. lots more chat about wkg in our eracing group than irl racing. but in context of the point about aiming for an arbitrary wkg, it's not really arbitrary anymore if you are trying to increase it for eracing (the goal being to do better in the race)?

[@proctermorris6657]

@@chiefwarmpaws the only time I ever think about W/kg specifically is in e-racing. For my riding and racing IRL, it's a very general thought, with no specific figure in mind. I just want the highest power number, and be as light as possible for the big key events. 😆 I don't really think about W/kg in that setting at all.